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Goodbye Jesus

2 Saviors?


Margee

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The degree to which evidence would convince me depends on how convincing the evidence is. I very strongly doubt I will see any evidence that will convince me at this point. The credible evidence out there certainly seems to point to a godless universe. But who knows. Emotional warm n fuzzies will not work. If a god really does exist and wants to convince me of his existence, he/she/it will know what to do.

 

What might be an example of convincing evidence? I agree about warm n fuzzies - emotions don’t make a good foundation. Yes, God will reveal Himself to you, but that doesn’t mean you will choose relationship with Him. It’s always a choice, even after His existence is known.

 

 

Honestly, it's been so long since I cared that I'm not sure what would convince me. Were an omnipotent god actually in existence and cared that I know about it, he would know what to do. If such a god actually told me he wanted some sort of relationship with me, I guess I might, depending on weather or not such a god was benevolent.

 

 

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So the thread basically doubles in size with lots of talk but no attempts at any proof...typical.

 

mwc

What type of proof would convince you? People can draw different conclusions from anything, don’t you think? A “burning bush” (not consumed) in the middle of Manhattan would cause scientists to develop a myriad of theories, but it’s probable that none of them would even consider a supernatural possibility. They’d study for years, convinced that someday they’ll understand how it was just a natural occurrence.

 

How about a direct conversation with god? With him proving unequivocally that he is god?

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In Isaiah 45 the “LORD” is speaking. “LORD” indicates the tetragrammaton, “YHWH”, “I AM” (see Ex. 3:14). Jesus claimed to be “I AM”. Jesus is “LORD” in Isaiah 45.

 

There is One God - three persons. Therefore there is no other god - none of the idols, false gods, etc. worshiped by people were the One True God. Isaiah speaks often against false gods.

 

God saves - He saved the nation of Israel (on earth) many times. He also offers us salvation (restored relationship) from the consequence of sin (death) on an earthly level and more fully on a spiritual level. God is out of time, but we are in time. Jesus came when the time was right for earth. But first testament people were also able to have a restored relationship with God (“salvation”). Jesus’ saving earthly work was for people of all times.

 

You are probably a darling person, but I don't believe any of it anymore - I don't believe that there were people names Adam and Eve and therefore, I don't believe in original sin - therefore - I don't need a savior to save me - even if there were 2,000 saviors in the whole bible. I guess thats it in a nutshell.

 

Margee, it’s fine that you don’t believe. I was just answering your question. And though I know original sin is involved, that’s not the first thing I think about in reference to a Savior. But, that’s just a side note. If you’re not interested in a savior that’s an honest choice. I’m still enjoying getting to know you though. Btw - do you have your personal story on the testimonies thread?

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Even if I could believe in a diety, why would I pick that disgustingly evil, barbaric, misogynist bible god? Your diabolical imaginary friend is nothing but the blackest of darkness and one of the most vile deities ever to be invented.

 

Actually, if a deity existed it would exist no matter what we thought of it, right? Why would a deity have to be good and loving to exist? Why couldn’t a deity be evil?

An evil diety doesn't deserve worship, even if it existed. It would deserve loathing and scorn.

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Guest Valk0010

 

 

I don’t see problems with the Bible if it’s viewed as ancient Jewish literature (both testaments).

 

 

Sure you don't, you see things like the miraclous and the nonmiraclous as the same(which is a categorical error, plain and simple). But, if its just ancient jewish literature, then how is it worth a damn outside of that context.

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I am going to harp on this walker, because its a key point. Say someone says to me, they went to burger king for lunch, even if there really shrewd with there money and hates going to out to eat, I could believe that based on of what someone says. I know this, because its not impossible nor something that couldn't possibly as far as we can tell by purely observation, happen. I might be surprised at the person going to burger king, but I would believe them.

 

Anything miraculous on the other hand, like say, seeing a dead guy after he has been dead for three days, I would be more skeptical of, and demand better evidence then say somehow just doing something not typical like hating going out to eat yet going to a burger king for lunch.

 

I demand better evidence then someone's testimony, because for all I can tell, it defies nature something like that could happen, and its not something that is likely to happen regardless of any outside factor.

 

I am really shocked you don't get the difference.

 

So yes it is a different standard, but I see no reason to hold two completely different things, by the same criteria.

 

Would you like to share some reasons why they should be?

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In Isaiah 45 the “LORD” is speaking. “LORD” indicates the tetragrammaton, “YHWH”, “I AM” (see Ex. 3:14). Jesus claimed to be “I AM”. Jesus is “LORD” in Isaiah 45.

 

There is One God - three persons. Therefore there is no other god - none of the idols, false gods, etc. worshiped by people were the One True God. Isaiah speaks often against false gods.

 

God saves - He saved the nation of Israel (on earth) many times. He also offers us salvation (restored relationship) from the consequence of sin (death) on an earthly level and more fully on a spiritual level. God is out of time, but we are in time. Jesus came when the time was right for earth. But first testament people were also able to have a restored relationship with God (“salvation”). Jesus’ saving earthly work was for people of all times.

 

You are probably a darling person, but I don't believe any of it anymore - I don't believe that there were people names Adam and Eve and therefore, I don't believe in original sin - therefore - I don't need a savior to save me - even if there were 2,000 saviors in the whole bible. I guess thats it in a nutshell.

 

Margee, it’s fine that you don’t believe. I was just answering your question. And though I know original sin is involved, that’s not the first thing I think about in reference to a Savior. But, that’s just a side note. If you’re not interested in a savior that’s an honest choice. I’m still enjoying getting to know you though. Btw - do you have your personal story on the testimonies thread?

 

Hi Walker - I have the last letter that I sent to my pastor when I left the church in the 'testimonies' - but I haven't written a full account yet, of my actual testimony - I will do this very soon. thanks for asking. And I understand your desire and need to defend the bible - I did it for 30 years! :grin:

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So, the miraclous is the exact same and the nonmiraclous, its completely different therefore in need of different criteria. The nature of the subject matter requires different standards. I also notice you totally overlook what I said about other text's miracle claims, you would have to grant those too. Extraordinary batshit stuff required more evidence then say, someone stealing a car. Here is why, the stuff isn't normal, the stuff doesn't happen today. Also notice, then when dealing with say Josephus, which does report miraclous material, we don't deal with it. We only deal with from those times, stuff that can be proven and also stuff we know could, if circumstance happened again, occur today as well. I would be ready to say(though I don't think the gospels are incredibly accurate even though they have some "historical" truth to them)that even if they were that doesn't prove the supernatural. It is just another version of alien abductions, or marian apparitions or shamanism. The gospels in that instance would be unique, but it wouldn't be any different then say the stuff you see on snopes, about urban legends. Factual based accounts of stuff that didn't happen or at least we have no good reason to say there is evidence for.

 

You are going to have to prove why the miraculous( a suspension of the laws of nature) should be treated the same as something that happens within the laws of nature. Because in my view it shouldn't because of how different it is.

On the miraculous being completely different - I don’t really agree. Sometimes what is “miraculous” to people is simply what they don’t understand at the time. Future scientific discoveries often explain what earlier people viewed as “miraculous“. Should we dismiss solid accounts of an miraculous event simply because we don’t yet understand how it could possibly be?

 

I’m not familiar with the miracle claims you previously mentioned or their support, etc. Biblical miracles often have to do with “timing” - kind of the “out of time” supernatural merging into a world “in time” for a moment. IF a Supreme Being exists, this Being would have a far superior understanding of natural law, correct? This Being would be able to do what we can’t yet understand, correct? But if you believe there is no Supreme Being and no supernatural, then there is no way you will see any differently. This is because any supernatural event can be viewed as natural by those for whom the supernatural isn’t an option (even if the “natural“ event can‘t yet be fully explained).

 

Since you cannot prove a Supreme Being does not exist, wouldn’t the supernatural have to be a possible option? Idk - maybe not.

 

Just as a matter of form, if your trying to draw a connection to the apostles, it fails. The people who followed jesus would a cult movement, and also non of them where really skeptical against the ideas of the supernatural because of the era of which they lived. There descriptions as recorded in the gospels don't really match and its contradictions in more then just could be explain by differing perspectives of eyewitness accounts. Delusions change lives as well. The reason the apostles had a similar view, is because they were together as well a cult the entire time they followed jesus. Paul for example, being as educated by the standards of the day, understood christianity even as a jew well enough, to be able to adopt the lifestyle when he went nutty and converted.

I wasn’t really thinking of the apostles - I was thinking about people throughout the entire Bible. People separated from each other by time and even location - and social and educational levels. They all point to a consistent “something”. Delusions do change lives - I’ve witnessed this. But the delusions of one person don’t usually (if ever) match the delusions of another, especially if the people don‘t know each other.

 

Paul didn’t “convert” to “Christianity”. Jesus was Jewish and He led a Jewish life. Jesus didn’t found a new religion, and Paul didn’t convert to it.

 

Just because a belief changes lives doesn't make it true nor necessarily mean they saw something special.

A belief that brings life-changes isn’t necessarily something that is True, but it is something the person believes enough to makes changes for. Beliefs that don’t bring about life-changes probably aren’t worth considering - how much can the person believe if they aren’t acting on the belief? So if people you highly respect and know well are making changes, it might be something to look at. They all claim they saw something, and they’re making changes. Something happened.

 

Extrordinary claims require extraoridary evidence. If I were to believe people who say something crazy, just because they happen to be reliable and good people in any of way, means I would have to believe in way more then there is really evidence for.

 

I would think I am a decent human being, a couple weeks ago I saw a ghost, I could tell you how it looked like, it looked a bit like casper the friendly ghost(in shape, because it looked very pillow like, gooey shapped) and the dust kind of thing you see in western movies.

 

Just because I am a good person, not religious, normally reliable, you would have to believe me, because I told you I saw a ghost. See the problem with the criteria for truth that you use. And best yet, I don't believe in ghosts. I am sure if I lived in first century Palestine and had that happened to me, I would. So yes I would say your crazy.

No - I don’t have to believe you if you tell me you saw some kind of “ghost” - some super-natural something. But I wouldn’t automatically disbelieve you either. I’d wait, and watch. How are you acting overall? Sane? Insane? Are there signs of substance abuse, high stress, or illness? Is anyone else anywhere reporting a similar story to yours? Has your experience changed you? Can it be explained by lights or some other natural event? I’d evaluate it, but that is because I believe there are things we can’t yet fully understand and there are dimensions/worlds other than concrete reality. (I guess I’d be the one who listened to the guy saying the world was round.)

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Christianity is immoral,the whole concept of salvation, the entire religion is well for the most part immoral.

 

agnostic atheist means, I don't know for a fact there is no god, but I see no reason to believe in one.

Why do you see "salvation" as immoral?

 

Agnostic atheist - O-K.

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What might be an example of convincing evidence? I agree about warm n fuzzies - emotions don’t make a good foundation. Yes, God will reveal Himself to you, but that doesn’t mean you will choose relationship with Him. It’s always a choice, even after His existence is known.

Honestly, it's been so long since I cared that I'm not sure what would convince me. Were an omnipotent god actually in existence and cared that I know about it, he would know what to do. If such a god actually told me he wanted some sort of relationship with me, I guess I might, depending on weather or not such a god was benevolent.

If a Supreme Being existed and it was not benevolent, we’d all have to decide what to do - try to appease it, serve it, side with it … or something to earn favor, etc. We wouldn’t be able to escape it, and not believing it existed wouldn’t change a thing.

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So the thread basically doubles in size with lots of talk but no attempts at any proof...typical.

 

mwc

What type of proof would convince you? People can draw different conclusions from anything, don’t you think? A “burning bush” (not consumed) in the middle of Manhattan would cause scientists to develop a myriad of theories, but it’s probable that none of them would even consider a supernatural possibility. They’d study for years, convinced that someday they’ll understand how it was just a natural occurrence.

 

How about a direct conversation with god? With him proving unequivocally that he is god?

Do you think this would work for you? How would God "prove unequivocally" that He is God?

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What might be an example of convincing evidence? I agree about warm n fuzzies - emotions don’t make a good foundation. Yes, God will reveal Himself to you, but that doesn’t mean you will choose relationship with Him. It’s always a choice, even after His existence is known.

Honestly, it's been so long since I cared that I'm not sure what would convince me. Were an omnipotent god actually in existence and cared that I know about it, he would know what to do. If such a god actually told me he wanted some sort of relationship with me, I guess I might, depending on weather or not such a god was benevolent.

If a Supreme Being existed and it was not benevolent, we’d all have to decide what to do - try to appease it, serve it, side with it … or something to earn favor, etc. We wouldn’t be able to escape it, and not believing it existed wouldn’t change a thing.

 

No, we'd basically be screwed if that were the case. Until I see reason to believe it is, I'll continue to sleep well at night. :)

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Walker - Do you really believe that Adam and eve were real people? And why do you believe this ?(if you do)

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Even if I could believe in a diety, why would I pick that disgustingly evil, barbaric, misogynist bible god? Your diabolical imaginary friend is nothing but the blackest of darkness and one of the most vile deities ever to be invented.

Actually, if a deity existed it would exist no matter what we thought of it, right? Why would a deity have to be good and loving to exist? Why couldn’t a deity be evil?

An evil diety doesn't deserve worship, even if it existed. It would deserve loathing and scorn.

I couldn't respect an evil deity, but if one existed I would have no choices, right? I couldn't wish its existence away.

 

IF a deity exists, do you think it could possibly be evil?

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Even if I could believe in a diety, why would I pick that disgustingly evil, barbaric, misogynist bible god? Your diabolical imaginary friend is nothing but the blackest of darkness and one of the most vile deities ever to be invented.

 

Actually, if a deity existed it would exist no matter what we thought of it, right? Why would a deity have to be good and loving to exist? Why couldn’t a deity be evil?

 

 

Why in heavens name, would you want to worship and love an 'evil deity'? This would be like worshipping hitler! :shrug: Are you scared of giong to hell? you MUST be!!:shrug:

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Guest I Love Dog

 

I couldn't respect an evil deity, but if one existed I would have no choices, right? I couldn't wish its existence away.

 

IF a deity exists, do you think it could possibly be evil?

 

Well, they don't come much more evil than the god of the bible!

 

You can always find yourself a nice one at http://www.godchecker.com

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I don’t see problems with the Bible if it’s viewed as ancient Jewish literature (both testaments).

Sure you don't, you see things like the miraclous and the nonmiraclous as the same(which is a categorical error, plain and simple). But, if its just ancient jewish literature, then how is it worth a damn outside of that context.

Viewing scripture as what it is - ancient Jewish literature - helps me know how to interpret it. So if I read that God says “Was my arm too short?” I know God wasn’t asking a question because He didn’t know the answer, and the text isn’t communicating that God is wondering if He has a physical short arm. Instead, I understand how/why Jewish literature and Jewish teaching methods use questions, and I understand the Hebraic style of thought (concrete expression) and Hebrew idioms. But if an American had written the text it would communicate that God is wondering if His physical arm is too short. This is just one easy, simple example - we readers need to know about authors to understand what they’re communicating.

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I am going to harp on this walker, because its a key point. Say someone says to me, they went to burger king for lunch, even if there really shrewd with there money and hates going to out to eat, I could believe that based on of what someone says. I know this, because its not impossible nor something that couldn't possibly as far as we can tell by purely observation, happen. I might be surprised at the person going to burger king, but I would believe them.

 

Anything miraculous on the other hand, like say, seeing a dead guy after he has been dead for three days, I would be more skeptical of, and demand better evidence then say somehow just doing something not typical like hating going out to eat yet going to a burger king for lunch.

 

I demand better evidence then someone's testimony, because for all I can tell, it defies nature something like that could happen, and its not something that is likely to happen regardless of any outside factor.

 

I am really shocked you don't get the difference.

 

So yes it is a different standard, but I see no reason to hold two completely different things, by the same criteria.

 

Would you like to share some reasons why they should be?

I think I at least began to discuss this in my post - 58. Maybe in some ways I don’t see the miraculous as so “miraculous” as you do. To explain - back when computers were basically unheard of it might seem pretty miraculous that there would come a time when many people would have a very small one that could bring vast amounts of knowledge to the user in seconds. That doesn’t sound miraculous to us now - we’re used to it and we accept it and expect it as normal life (even if we have no idea how it all works). Well, I accept that things other than this three-dimensional world in time exist, so it’s not so surprising to me that sometimes something from another realm pokes in. And the dead coming back to life - that’s going to happen to us all eventually … just most of us won’t come back alive to this earthly setting.

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Hi Walker - I have the last letter that I sent to my pastor when I left the church in the 'testimonies' - but I haven't written a full account yet, of my actual testimony - I will do this very soon. thanks for asking. And I understand your desire and need to defend the bible - I did it for 30 years! :grin:

O-K - I’d like to read your story if/when you write it. Could you link me to your letter to your pastor? I don’t know how long ago you wrote it and if it’s been buried by other threads. Thanks.

 

Actually, my desire is to walk where God leads. I’m fine with seasons of not “defending the Bible” and just volunteering and helping others, etc. And I’m pretty used to being around those who don’t believe so I’m comfortable with people holding different views. (Those who walk with God can often be rare anyway, even in church settings.) No one needs to defend the Bible, or God, etc. - God can do that. I share what I know when asked - people can take it or leave it. I do enjoy getting to know others and how they think and feel, etc. We’re all so unique!

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What might be an example of convincing evidence? I agree about warm n fuzzies - emotions don’t make a good foundation. Yes, God will reveal Himself to you, but that doesn’t mean you will choose relationship with Him. It’s always a choice, even after His existence is known.

Honestly, it's been so long since I cared that I'm not sure what would convince me. Were an omnipotent god actually in existence and cared that I know about it, he would know what to do. If such a god actually told me he wanted some sort of relationship with me, I guess I might, depending on weather or not such a god was benevolent.

If a Supreme Being existed and it was not benevolent, we’d all have to decide what to do - try to appease it, serve it, side with it … or something to earn favor, etc. We wouldn’t be able to escape it, and not believing it existed wouldn’t change a thing.

 

No, we'd basically be screwed if that were the case. Until I see reason to believe it is, I'll continue to sleep well at night. :)

I agree - we'd be screwed! Lol !

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Walker - Do you really believe that Adam and eve were real people? And why do you believe this ?(if you do)

I do believe Adam and Eve were real people - they are spoken of as real people by others throughout scripture and Adam is included in genealogies. But that said, the crucial part for me is the Truths that are communicated through these beginning sections of Genesis. If one is walking with God and understands these Truths, then that’s the important thing. Anything else they need will come through relationship with Him.

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Even if I could believe in a diety, why would I pick that disgustingly evil, barbaric, misogynist bible god? Your diabolical imaginary friend is nothing but the blackest of darkness and one of the most vile deities ever to be invented.

Actually, if a deity existed it would exist no matter what we thought of it, right? Why would a deity have to be good and loving to exist? Why couldn’t a deity be evil?

Why in heavens name, would you want to worship and love an 'evil deity'? This would be like worshipping hitler! :shrug: Are you scared of giong to hell? you MUST be!!:shrug:

I wouldn't want to worship and love an evil deity. The point is - if there is a deity it is what it is. What we believe about it doesn't change what it is. People have this idea that if a deity exists it must be good. Why? Where did they get such an idea? Is there some reason why a deity couldn't be evil?

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Even if I could believe in a diety, why would I pick that disgustingly evil, barbaric, misogynist bible god? Your diabolical imaginary friend is nothing but the blackest of darkness and one of the most vile deities ever to be invented.

Actually, if a deity existed it would exist no matter what we thought of it, right? Why would a deity have to be good and loving to exist? Why couldn’t a deity be evil?

Why in heavens name, would you want to worship and love an 'evil deity'? This would be like worshipping hitler! :shrug: Are you scared of giong to hell? you MUST be!!:shrug:

I wouldn't want to worship and love an evil deity. The point is - if there is a deity it is what it is. What we believe about it doesn't change what it is. People have this idea that if a deity exists it must be good. Why? Where did they get such an idea? Is there some reason why a deity couldn't be evil?

 

Walker - I am healing from all of this horrible biblical bullshit. - that is why I am here. if you are a person who still believes that Adam and Eve were Real people, or a deity could be evil (it is what it is) - power to you my friend! Got to church and keep praying for me, please!

 

To me - it's all just silliness, written by ancient man 2000 years ago. People who thought they were hearing what god was saying.do you ever read the horror stories in the bible? I just don't have energy for any of this stupid talk anymore. Sorry to disappoint you. there are 2 testimonies for me right now. One is called -'Virginia - there is no Santa clause, and the other is the 'pastors last letter'. You'll have to find them cause I don't know how to do this. I have been 'hashing' around all this scripture stuff for 30 years. I'm done with it. Thanks anyway for the input.

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I do believe Adam and Eve were real people - they are spoken of as real people by others throughout scripture and Adam is included in genealogies. But that said, the crucial part for me is the Truths that are communicated through these beginning sections of Genesis. If one is walking with God and understands these Truths, then that’s the important thing. Anything else they need will come through relationship with Him.

 

No matter how you fluff it up, the bible is a lice filled pillow. You keep saying the same stuff over and over on this post.

 

To me, and this is just me here.... You are trying to shore-up doubts you are having about god.

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I do believe Adam and Eve were real people - they are spoken of as real people by others throughout scripture and Adam is included in genealogies. But that said, the crucial part for me is the Truths that are communicated through these beginning sections of Genesis. If one is walking with God and understands these Truths, then that’s the important thing. Anything else they need will come through relationship with Him.

 

No matter how you fluff it up, the bible is a lice filled pillow. You keep saying the same stuff over and over on this post.

 

To me, and this is just me here.... You are trying to shore-up doubts you are having about god.

 

thanks NoGods!

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