Not Feeling Happy

[foolish girl]

Well, I came to this late! And I can't really think of anything to say that hasn't already been said by others. I just wanted to show my support for you and your stance. I imagine your husband would never consider going to anything he felt was insulting, demeaning, or even simply not for him, yet he expects that of you. It is a tough situation to be in, Im sure. But if he is so concerned about the children, perhaps telling him that you refuse to go for the sake of your daughter, who has been hurt by this church because she does not have a penis? I'm not sure if that would help your situation or cause more trouble, but perhaps if he realized it is not just your disbelief but a concern for the way your daughter is treated and her future self image would help?

 

I hope this does not escalate into a worse situation, however you decide to handle it.

 

He won't see that as an injustice (not being allowed to carry the bread basket)

 

He hasn't brought it up. Played computer games all day while I painted the bedroom. Now he is watching tv while i do this. I think I will take a hot bath, read a book, go to bed.

All I did was say "I'll stay home and hold down the fort"...wasn't rude about it.

 

It really pisses me off that the only time he is ugly to me is when it concerns god.

 

I bet he won't say a word until next Sunday if i let him. Well....that can't happen. I have this bad habit of liking the feeling of being "close to him"..

 

yeesh.

[Thurisaz]

He's a dick.

 

This. Exactly this.

[MagickMonkey]

Well, I came to this late! And I can't really think of anything to say that hasn't already been said by others. I just wanted to show my support for you and your stance. I imagine your husband would never consider going to anything he felt was insulting, demeaning, or even simply not for him, yet he expects that of you. It is a tough situation to be in, Im sure. But if he is so concerned about the children, perhaps telling him that you refuse to go for the sake of your daughter, who has been hurt by this church because she does not have a penis? I'm not sure if that would help your situation or cause more trouble, but perhaps if he realized it is not just your disbelief but a concern for the way your daughter is treated and her future self image would help?

 

I hope this does not escalate into a worse situation, however you decide to handle it.

 

He won't see that as an injustice (not being allowed to carry the bread basket)

 

He hasn't brought it up. Played computer games all day while I painted the bedroom. Now he is watching tv while i do this. I think I will take a hot bath, read a book, go to bed.

All I did was say "I'll stay home and hold down the fort"...wasn't rude about it.

 

It really pisses me off that the only time he is ugly to me is when it concerns god.

 

I bet he won't say a word until next Sunday if i let him. Well....that can't happen. I have this bad habit of liking the feeling of being "close to him"..

 

yeesh.

 

That sounds wise. The sooner you establish the fact that you will no longer be attending church, unless for some reason you decide to on your own, the sooner you can feel safe to be close to him.

[ilovemybrain]

Ohhh you KNOW I understand. This is what pisses me off about xianity. How appearance is so important. I think my dh was more upset about my not attending church than he was about my deconversion. You are one tough cookie. Stay strong Ms. Awesome.

[Freedom from Guilt]

I'm about 4 or 5 months into "not going to church anymore" and, unfortunately (at least for me) things have not gotten better. We had a fight just this past week about how I have altered this family FOREVER with me deconversion. He's biggest gripe is that the kids are now living in a divided household and no longer being raised with "family values" in a "christian home". I wish you guys better luck than I am having.

 

freedom

[Freedom from Guilt]

Ohhh you KNOW I understand. This is what pisses me off about xianity. How appearance is so important. I think my dh was more upset about my not attending church than he was about my deconversion. You are one tough cookie. Stay strong Ms. Awesome.

 

Sometimes I wonder if this is what bother's my husband so much. I'm sure it plays a part.

[foolish girl]

I'm about 4 or 5 months into "not going to church anymore" and, unfortunately (at least for me) things have not gotten better. We had a fight just this past week about how I have altered this family FOREVER with me deconversion. He's biggest gripe is that the kids are now living in a divided household and no longer being raised with "family values" in a "christian home". I wish you guys better luck than I am having.

 

freedom

 

Makes it seem like River and Overcame Faith have it figured out. I mean, they both go to keep the peace.

 

It isn't fair. But who has really cared about fair since, oh-I don'tknow, 4th grade?

 

 

I as thinking about when he come home today and asks me how my day was, I could say "From all outward appearances it was fine, and that's what matters!"

If our roles were reversed I really don't think I would be ugly to him about this. If it mattered to me, I would have private conversations with him to figure out what was going on. But that's just me.

 

The outward appearance is SO much more important to him because his family attends at "our" church.

 

Maybe I should start a poll about this and find out people's experiences.

[Ro-bear]

so I have to confess I cave in and go often for my dw (just as often I don't go). she doesn't force my by any means, but i guess its not important enough for me to refuse to go. i always find ways to amuse myself with the sermon or the way people gush over god (privately). I almost think you should go if you value your marriage over the one hour per week suffering but no one should really be forced into it.

 

its a tough situation you are in.

 

I've tried that for over a year. It isn't working for me. I have tried taking notes, writing snarky reports here and napping.

 

I go to bed angry on saturday nights. I wake up angry sunday morning. I am angry all through chruch. An hour after we get home, I am myself again.

 

I need to establish my RIGHT to stay home.

 

Yes, you do. You to are going to have to have this out. Send the kids to a movie or something and draw up the truce papers. You've got to cauterize this or it will fester.

[Guest riverrunner]

Makes it seem like River and Overcame Faith have it figured out. I mean, they both go to keep the peace.

 

definitely don't have it figured out and we do avoid the topic like the plague but it comes down to what is more (or not as) important to you. i don't care about religion or church as much as i do about my dw. i even take my turn to pray at the dinner table every fourth meal. back to the church thing I am sure you have friends there even though they might be delusional there are still some nice people. oddly they never bring up religion at church its always so how was your trip/job/etc. they have no idea i think they are all very wrong about things. it might be fun someday to tell everyone "i don't really believe in this stuff I am just here for the coffee", but that would probably be rude. anyway you have a lot of people here saying don't go and assert your rights. you most certainly can (maybe should?) do that - but there will be consequences and you must be willing to face those consequences.

[foolish girl]

[VacuumFlux]

The outward appearance is SO much more important to him because his family attends at "our" church.

 

Maybe I should start a poll about this and find out people's experiences.

 

I've definitely seen that attitude from my parents. Once they were mad at me for going on a weekend trip with boys that required an overnight stay somewhere, and the drive back was long enough that I missed church on Sunday. They yelled at me for hours about how dare I embarrass them in front of everyone at church (not that anyone there would know the whole "awful" story unless my parents told 'em); how even though they know I wasn't having sex, the "appearance of evil" would ruin my Christian witness, etc. It took a few hours (or what felt like hours, I'm not really sure) before it occurred them to say they had been worried about my safety. They certainly made it sound that any concern for me was a distant second to how other people would view the situation.

[foolish girl]

My husband and I had o have a talk recently about his bad behavior on Sunday...feelings, blah blah blah. You guys know the drill. In order to show him that my disbelief was well founded I decided to tell him a story. We were laying in bed talking.

 

I started "In the beginning".....and told him the story of genesis, ending with the concept of god creating everything, knowing everything and how we are set up for failure.

 

 

Then I told him "In the beginning".....and told him the story of genesis...but what if they HADN'T sinned?! Just lived and procreated and "filled the earth". People who live, like 900 years- filling the earth, untill there is no room for anyone. We were set up for failure. God did not intend for anyone to resist the temptation. It just isn't practical.

 

Then I told him "In the beginning".....and told him the story of genesis...only nobody sins. They fill the earth (at a lesser rate than we would have imagined, because in the last scenario he imagined that the rate of reproduction may have had 'different' rules then...maybe there wouldn't be as MANY as I had just imagined....) So ANYWAY...nobody sins...and they get a *little* crowded and move out of eden and around the globe a bit. Everyone eats plants. This winter time thing happens. Planst die.. people and animals have less to eat. They die.

 

"Well" I am told" You cannot know how it worked then. If eve could have children without pain, then Winter could come and go without death."............................................................

 

It was good that we talked in the dark, I could make faces there without escalating to a fight...very helpful!

 

So the end of the story as you all know, is that you can't reason with a Christian. Magic beats everything.

 

Thought I would share from the thread in the lions den called "creation makes a liar of Jehovah"...

 

My husband seems to think that all he is asks for is two hours on Sunday morning. I told him that it is so much more than that. I told him about how I temper my speech every day. I have to hide my books, keep my epiphanies to myself. All to preserve our relationship. (If you guys knew me, you would know that keeping ideas to myself is NOT my natural state! lol)

 

Anyway. 2 hours on Sunday is just the cherry on top.

 

So the quote I shared above is from a part of the conversation where I was trying to show him that I am not rebellious. That there are genuine problems with these stories. He wouldn't give an inch there though. God is mysterious and all that jazz.

 

I told him that I need to be able to go- or not to go, without having to worry about his major reaction.

 

He persists in not seeing what a "big deal" it is.

 

By the way, the conversation started when he let me know that he was experiencing a deficit of kisses. I said "Well that is because I have been mad at you."

 

do you know what he said?

He said."Really?"

And he sounded genuinely surprised at that idea. Probably because on Sunday he was right and I was wrong.

 

Anyway..................We talked. I don't know if things are better or not. Its a mess.

 

I want to stay home on Sunday to firm up my position. I am still worried about it though. Especially with my big kids. ESPECIALLY the 10 yr old. He doesn't wanna go already.

 

Well,

Thanks for listening.

[foolish girl]

The outward appearance is SO much more important to him because his family attends at "our" church.

 

Maybe I should start a poll about this and find out people's experiences.

 

I've definitely seen that attitude from my parents. Once they were mad at me for going on a weekend trip with boys that required an overnight stay somewhere, and the drive back was long enough that I missed church on Sunday. They yelled at me for hours about how dare I embarrass them in front of everyone at church (not that anyone there would know the whole "awful" story unless my parents told 'em); how even though they know I wasn't having sex, the "appearance of evil" would ruin my Christian witness, etc. It took a few hours (or what felt like hours, I'm not really sure) before it occurred them to say they had been worried about my safety. They certainly made it sound that any concern for me was a distant second to how other people would view the situation.

 

Somewhere Florduh said to you that your parents don't love you. They love their idea of you.

I think that this is both right and wrong.

It is wrong in it's implication that they wouldn't love you if the knew the real you.

You can't know that unless you give them the chance. It is a gamble, but you have biology, history and love on your side. Maybe you should spread your wings a little. Give them the opportunity to behave badly. Give them time to recover...then practice independence while you wait.

I wish for you the best!

[MagickMonkey]

... He persists in not seeing what a "big deal" it is. ...

 

Definitely stand your ground here. Tell him that it is a big deal to you, even if he is incapable of understanding why.

 

 

By the way, the conversation started when he lef me know that he was experiencing a deficit of kisses. I said "Well that is because I have been mad at you."

 

do you know what he said?

He said."Really?"

And he sounded genuinely surprised at that idea.

 

 

Yeah, we guys can be pretty fucking clueless sometimes. I've been guilty of something similar MANY times. It pisses my wife off that much more, too.

[foolish girl]

 

 

Yeah, we guys can be pretty fucking clueless sometimes. I've been guilty of something similar MANY times. It pisses my wife off that much more, too.

 

Well I am glad to know that he isn't abnormally stupid then.

 

 

eee-gads. Yell at me, COMMAND me...and slam the door in my face? Get the cold shoulder for 3 days and then act SURPRISED that I was mad?

 

[MagickMonkey]

Yeah, we guys can be pretty fucking clueless sometimes. I've been guilty of something similar MANY times. It pisses my wife off that much more, too.

 

Well I am glad to know that he isn't abnormally stupid then.

 

 

eee-gads. Yell at me, COMMAND me...and slam the door in my face? Get the cold shoulder for 3 days and then act SURPRISED that I was mad?

 

 

Well, I can honestly say I don't try to order my wife around. Of course, I don't have an imaginary alpha male telling me I have to be a controlling husband. Sometimes, my bossy wife tries to order me around, and I have to let her know she'd better back off.

[florduh]

Somewhere Florduh said to you that your parents don't love you. They love their idea of you.

I think that this is both right and wrong.

It is wrong in it's implication that they wouldn't love you if the knew the real you.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. You have to give them the chance to love YOU but as long as you pretend to be someone you're not, they never get the opportunity. To have someone love the false person you've presented is useless to both parties.

[stryper]

The appertaining rage to the misogynistic behaivor of him to one of our dear members is tempered only by distance.

 

I want to say many mean sprited things right now, but as that will not help the situation, I shall refrain.

 

The battle must be fought and it is your battle to fight. I feel though you maybe fighting a stacked deck. Since you said he is capable of coming up with the wife obey me thing on his own, it seems he will only find re-enforcement at church and among his friends. I don't think he would find a mitigating influence in his current support system. They would probably all be telling him to man up.

 

My father would get mad, yell, throw things, and hit us without a religious justification. It was always an escalation. Brooding silence -> command-> unobeyed -> shouting, slamming door, etc. -> still unobeyed -> viloence. Sometimes the last would happen anyway. Then it would be days or weeks of no communication. Then the cycle would repeat few weeks, a year, two years, didn't matter, it would repeat, eventually. I fear for you, because of my experience.

 

If he keeps getting bad advice from church, and he has already displayed viloent outbusts, which the kids probably heard if not saw, then be on guard.

[foolish girl]

The appertaining rage to the misogynistic behaivor of him to one of our dear members is tempered only by distance.

 

I want to say many mean sprited things right now, but as that will not help the situation, I shall refrain.

 

The battle must be fought and it is your battle to fight. I feel though you maybe fighting a stacked deck. Since you said he is capable of coming up with the wife obey me thing on his own, it seems he will only find re-enforcement at church and among his friends. I don't think he would find a mitigating influence in his current support system. They would probably all be telling him to man up.

 

My father would get mad, yell, throw things, and hit us without a religious justification. It was always an escalation. Brooding silence -> command-> unobeyed -> shouting, slamming door, etc. -> still unobeyed -> viloence. Sometimes the last would happen anyway. Then it would be days or weeks of no communication. Then the cycle would repeat few weeks, a year, two years, didn't matter, it would repeat, eventually. I fear for you, because of my experience.

 

If he keeps getting bad advice from church, and he has already displayed viloent outbusts, which the kids probably heard if not saw, then be on guard.

 

Duly noted Stryper.

I want you to know that I will never, ever put up with that kind of shit.

His issue is temper, and it only comes up in this situation. I was concerned when he was surprised that "I" was angry with HIM over Sunday's episode. That concerns me. Seems a little out of touch.

I told him it was hateful. The look in the eyes, the volume, the slamming door. He continuously contests the use of the word "hateful". Cause he doesn't have hate for me. I told him "well that is what I SAW."

I am more concerned about being an emotional hostage (unable to speak freely) than I am about the anger though. I think he is going thru stages and maybe just reached anger. I am hoping acceptance is around the corner.

[Blue elephant]

Your husband seems to think that it is a small thing to demand that you go to church. If you reversed the situation and demanded that he stay home with you, would that be a small thing?

 

More a matter of pulling any irrational argument to get you to go to church I think. And the appearance of following someones beliefs does not make you believe any of their beliefs, nor does it take you even one step closer to believing their beliefs.

 

What would happen if you agreed to go to church but stated that you would refuse to lie about your views?

[Phanta]

It's not a small thing because you are different people with different feelings and priorities and perspectives.

 

Perhaps he has not yet realized that you are not one.

 

Phanta

[foolish girl]

Your husband seems to think that it is a small thing to demand that you go to church. If you reversed the situation and demanded that he stay home with you, would that be a small thing?

 

More a matter of pulling any irrational argument to get you to go to church I think. And the appearance of following someones beliefs does not make you believe any of their beliefs, nor does it take you even one step closer to believing their beliefs.

 

What would happen if you agreed to go to church but stated that you would refuse to lie about your views?

 

I asked him how he would feel If I required him to go to a Dawkins lecture once a week. With the children. And be quiet. Maybe even nod/smile. If anyone asks you what you thought about it you say "it was awesome!".

 

He said it isn't the "same". Because he believes my skipping church hurts our family. But him skipping Dawkins wouldn't hurt our family. Well. I disagree- but we had too many other topics going, so I let that one go.

 

My focus with him is on seeing how it affects me, understanding why it affects me that way, and getting him to respond appropriately.

 

Based on the conversation that we had on many topics, including this creation thing- I am not trying to win any arguments through hypotheticals!

[MagickMonkey]

Your husband seems to think that it is a small thing to demand that you go to church. If you reversed the situation and demanded that he stay home with you, would that be a small thing?

 

More a matter of pulling any irrational argument to get you to go to church I think. And the appearance of following someones beliefs does not make you believe any of their beliefs, nor does it take you even one step closer to believing their beliefs.

 

What would happen if you agreed to go to church but stated that you would refuse to lie about your views?

 

I asked him how he would feel If I required him to go to a Dawkins lecture once a week. With the children. And be quiet. Maybe even nod/smile. If anyone asks you what you thought about it you say "it was awesome!".

 

He said it isn't the "same". Because he believes my skipping church hurts our family. But him skipping Dawkins wouldn't hurt our family. Well. I disagree- but we had too many other topics going, so I let that one go.

 

My focus with him is on seeing how it affects me, understanding why it affects me that way, and getting him to respond appropriately.

 

Based on the conversation that we had on many topics, including this creation thing- I am not trying to win any arguments through hypotheticals!

 

Ok, it sounds like he does not care to understand your side. He just wants you to go to church and he doesn't give a damn what you think about it. If I'm right, you should call him out on that and turn the tables on him. Tell him you're not going to church, and you don't give a damn if he likes it or not. Then patiently wait for him to throw his temper tantrums and eventually get over it.

[foolish girl]

I'm about 4 or 5 months into "not going to church anymore" and, unfortunately (at least for me) things have not gotten better. We had a fight just this past week about how I have altered this family FOREVER with me deconversion. He's biggest gripe is that the kids are now living in a divided household and no longer being raised with "family values" in a "christian home". I wish you guys better luck than I am having.

 

freedom

 

Freedom. This is the way we are heading unless I decide that personal freedom of expression is LESS important than getting along.

[Vigile]

Your husband seems to think that it is a small thing to demand that you go to church. If you reversed the situation and demanded that he stay home with you, would that be a small thing?

 

Summed up perfectly.