What's The Point Of Evangelizing

[StillAChristian]

What about all those people who we have hurt through our mistakes. I do not see for a moment why a kind and loving Creator should accept anything that's even remotely bad in His presence, let alone the worst that we have to offer. God could do that if our sin affected only us alone, but that's not the case.

In Job, Satan is in God's presence and makes a bet.

 

Adam and Eve sinned and supposedly deserved punishment, yet God talked to them eye-to-eye.

 

So obviously, God can be in both the presence of sin and evil and accept it if necessary.

 

And isn't it so that God is present everywhere? Does omnipresent mean "omnipresent in Heaven only," or is God literally everywhere? Then he must be where sin and evil exist in this world as well.

 

We can cite Moses seeing God's back to counterbalance that. However things may have been in the Garden, by Moses' time, clearly even Moses, who would have been the most righteous bloke around, could not face God and live:)

[Ouroboros]

Please note though it's not God's fault that people reject Him...we do have our free will regardless of predestination.

You are rejecting Allah, so you are going to Muslim Hell.

 

Also, you are rejecting Ahura Mazda, so you are going to Zoroastrian Hell as well.

 

And you are rejecting Zeus, Odin, Hari Krishna, etc...

 

You are going to all those Hells, and I'm just going to one more than you. But we'll all suffer.

 

Even though it might seem confusing but this is God we are talking about. Why would you expect to understand every single thing about God (a higher life form) when most of the time human beings are barely able to understand one another?

But you understand God? You're talking about God like you know these things for sure, yet you say we can't know.

[Ouroboros]

We can cite Moses seeing God's back to counterbalance that. However things may have been in the Garden, by Moses' time, clearly even Moses, who would have been the most righteous bloke around, could not face God and live:)

That doesn't answer my question.

 

Obviously the religious idea of God evolved. God could face sin and evil at first, then later someone came up with the brilliant idea that God cannot.

[StillAChristian]

A proper father or mother, of course, will love their naughty children but they will still discipline them when they do the wrong thing, won't they? If they don't, they are not a good parent, they are settng up their kids for failure. Besides, in the case of us and God, we are the ones who rejected God. God loves us but if we walk away from Him, he essentially gives us what we want by sending us to Hell ie a place without God. Of course, we will find we don't want it once we have it, after all, but too late...

Some problems here:

 

First, Eternal punishment is not the same as being disciplined. To discipline your child means that they get a temporary punishment so they can learn to do the right thing next time. Eternal punishment will never teach anyone anything, it's only a penalty.

 

Secondly, the penalty should fit the crime. To "not believe" is penalized with eternal punishment. And you can be a serial killer, be saved, and go to Heaven, while a person who never did anyone harm goes to Hell. It just doesn't fit. What are we penalized for? For not believing?

 

Lastly, to "not believe" is not the same as "intentionally reject" something. I don't believe in Santa Claus, but it doesn't mean I reject Santa Claus. Do you understand the difference? Do you believe in Santa Claus? Does that mean that you hate or reject Santa Claus?

 

In regards to people who have never heard of Jesus, we do know that God is a just God, so there *may* be hope for them there. However, in our day, only the bushmen of the Kalarahi, some tribes up the Amazon and possibly some Peruvian herdsmen may not have heard of Jesus. Everyone else is clearly still on the hook.

So a person has a better chance to go to Heaven if they do not hear the Gospel. Hearing the Gospel and not believing means certain punishment, while not hearing the Gospel can give a person a free pass.

 

In other words, it's better to not evangelize. It gives people a better chance.

 

I'm afraid if we don't believe in God, we do walk away from God. Because, after all, we start living life, our OWN way, the way WE want it to live, focusing only on OURselves. Sure, we might help other people but when we are up against it, we will look after number 1. And yes, if we keep doing that then eventually God's patience will run out. Anyway, if a child walks away from a parent, there's nothing much a parent can do, right?

 

"And you can be a serial killer, be saved, and go to Heaven, while a person who never did anyone harm goes to Hell. It just doesn't fit" - it does when you realise that we ALL do the wrong thing. What if I said something and hurt someone verbally, why do we think that that's not as bad as killing them? It's like, for us, the level to be considered good is somewhere around 50% (if I have done more good things than bad things, I must be ok), whereas for God, the level is more like 100%. When you think about it, a serial killer also thinks they are a good person...they would rationalise their killing in some way. That should give us food for thought...why do we think our opinion of ourselves is right?

 

In regards to the "never heard of Jesus" defence, I guess in the end, we don't know. Much safer to tell everyone about Jesus so that they can be saved for certain:)

[StillAChristian]

Please note though it's not God's fault that people reject Him...we do have our free will regardless of predestination.

You are rejecting Allah, so you are going to Muslim Hell.

 

Also, you are rejecting Ahura Mazda, so you are going to Zoroastrian Hell as well.

 

And you are rejecting Zeus, Odin, Hari Krishna, etc...

 

You are going to all those Hells, and I'm just going to one more than you. But we'll all suffer.

 

Even though it might seem confusing but this is God we are talking about. Why would you expect to understand every single thing about God (a higher life form) when most of the time human beings are barely able to understand one another?

But you understand God? You're talking about God like you know these things for sure, yet you say we can't know.

 

 

The only things we know for sure are the ones that are in the Bible:) and that's what the Bible says. There is predestination and free will AT THE SAME TIME:)

 

 

[StillAChristian]

We can cite Moses seeing God's back to counterbalance that. However things may have been in the Garden, by Moses' time, clearly even Moses, who would have been the most righteous bloke around, could not face God and live:)

That doesn't answer my question.

 

Obviously the religious idea of God evolved. God could face sin and evil at first, then later someone came up with the brilliant idea that God cannot.

 

God did cast Adam and Eve out of his presence after they have sinned. In regards of God, talking to Satan, I think that the purpose of the book of Job is to give us an idea of a proper response to God rather than to establish some form of cosmology:)

[Ouroboros]

I'm afraid if we don't believe in God, we do walk away from God.

And I'm afraid that you are sorely mistaken and do not understand human nature.

 

Because, after all, we start living life, our OWN way, the way WE want it to live, focusing only on OURselves.

You're judging without knowing.

 

Sure, we might help other people but when we are up against it, we will look after number 1.

You don't know me or the other unbelievers on this website, yet you make judgmental statements about what you think people think and do. You don't know why people lost their faith. You're assuming you know and throw it out like it's a fact, when it's not. Because I don't recognize myself in what you're saying.

 

And yes, if we keep doing that then eventually God's patience will run out. Anyway, if a child walks away from a parent, there's nothing much a parent can do, right?

Then God can discipline us here, on this planet, now, in our lifetime, instead of eternal punishment.

 

Eternal punishment is not the same as discipline or teaching.

 

"And you can be a serial killer, be saved, and go to Heaven, while a person who never did anyone harm goes to Hell. It just doesn't fit" - it does when you realise that we ALL do the wrong thing. What if I said something and hurt someone verbally, why do we think that that's not as bad as killing them? It's like, for us, the level to be considered good is somewhere around 50% (if I have done more good things than bad things, I must be ok), whereas for God, the level is more like 100%. When you think about it, a serial killer also thinks they are a good person...they would rationalise their killing in some way. That should give us food for thought...why do we think our opinion of ourselves is right?

You're spinning without answering the question.

 

In regards to the "never heard of Jesus" defence, I guess in the end, we don't know. Much safer to tell everyone about Jesus so that they can be saved for certain:)

No, since they have a better chance if they do not hear. If the do not hear, they have a chance of getting into Heaven without having to make a decision to believe, while hearing requires that they have to believe.

[Ouroboros]

The only things we know for sure are the ones that are in the Bible:) and that's what the Bible says. There is predestination and free will AT THE SAME TIME:)

The Bible cannot be said to be true just because the Bible says it is true.

 

If the Quran says it's true, does it make it true? You will most likely say "no."

 

And predestination and free will is another topic. Focus. Try to keep that ADD under control.

[Ouroboros]

God did cast Adam and Eve out of his presence after they have sinned.

But he did talk to them face-to-face. The reason why he threw them out was because of what he had decided (or law), not because he couldn't face it. They disobeyed his rule, that's why they were shunned.

 

In regards of God, talking to Satan, I think that the purpose of the book of Job is to give us an idea of a proper response to God rather than to establish some form of cosmology:)

So in other words, Job is not literally true.

 

If the Bible contains stories that are just that, stories, then many of the other stories you read might be just the same thing, not literally true.

[pratt]

stillAchristian

 

regardless of freewill, it is all predestined according to your good book. before you are even a concept, before even the sperm meets the ovary, you are either hell bound or heaven guaranteed. that is your omnipotent omniscient being decreed and he changeth not.

 

before even adam and eve, jesus has been planned to be crucified.

 

That is NOT a mystery. Just a bloody sick joke

[Ouroboros]

That is NOT a mystery. Just a bloody sick joke

Indeed.

 

And to consider that God required a human sacrifice to be appeased, just like the pagan gods.

[StillAChristian]

I'm afraid if we don't believe in God, we do walk away from God.

And I'm afraid that you are sorely mistaken and do not understand human nature.

 

Because, after all, we start living life, our OWN way, the way WE want it to live, focusing only on OURselves.

You're judging without knowing.

 

Sure, we might help other people but when we are up against it, we will look after number 1.

You don't know me or the other unbelievers on this website, yet you make judgmental statements about what you think people think and do. You don't know why people lost their faith. You're assuming you know and throw it out like it's a fact, when it's not. Because I don't recognize myself in what you're saying.

 

And yes, if we keep doing that then eventually God's patience will run out. Anyway, if a child walks away from a parent, there's nothing much a parent can do, right?

Then God can discipline us here, on this planet, now, in our lifetime, instead of eternal punishment.

 

Eternal punishment is not the same as discipline or teaching.

 

"And you can be a serial killer, be saved, and go to Heaven, while a person who never did anyone harm goes to Hell. It just doesn't fit" - it does when you realise that we ALL do the wrong thing. What if I said something and hurt someone verbally, why do we think that that's not as bad as killing them? It's like, for us, the level to be considered good is somewhere around 50% (if I have done more good things than bad things, I must be ok), whereas for God, the level is more like 100%. When you think about it, a serial killer also thinks they are a good person...they would rationalise their killing in some way. That should give us food for thought...why do we think our opinion of ourselves is right?

You're spinning without answering the question.

 

In regards to the "never heard of Jesus" defence, I guess in the end, we don't know. Much safer to tell everyone about Jesus so that they can be saved for certain:)

No, since they have a better chance if they do not hear. If the do not hear, they have a chance of getting into Heaven without having to make a decision to believe, while hearing requires that they have to believe.

 

 

 

"You're spinning without answering the question." - that does answer the question. To God, we are no different from a serial killer. If we think otherwise, we are bringing our own system of values and applying to God. THAT is the thing that's evolved with time, not God.

 

"No, since they have a better chance if they do not hear. If the do not hear, they have a chance of getting into Heaven without having to make a decision to believe, while hearing requires that they have to believe." - more chance of them believing and being saved, I think. I'm still leaning towards the opinion from reading the Bible, that people who never heard of Jesus may still go to hell because they are separated from God by their sin.

 

"You don't know me or the other unbelievers on this website, yet you make judgmental statements about what you think people think and do. You don't know why people lost their faith. You're assuming you know and throw it out like it's a fact, when it's not. Because I don't recognize myself in what you're saying." - This is not meant to be a personal judgement against anyone, it's a general observation about human nature. I really want to stress this point here. This has been my experience of human nature IN GENERAL, of my own nature and that of other people's. That is why it makes perfect sense to me. I would invite everyone to inspect their life, look themselves (not anyone else) in the eye, and tell themselves honestly that they have never been selfish in their life.

[StillAChristian]

The only things we know for sure are the ones that are in the Bible:) and that's what the Bible says. There is predestination and free will AT THE SAME TIME:)

The Bible cannot be said to be true just because the Bible says it is true.

 

If the Quran says it's true, does it make it true? You will most likely say "no."

 

And predestination and free will is another topic. Focus. Try to keep that ADD under control.

 

The Bible is true because we know it's true and because of evidence for the resurrection, which I'm sure has been debated many times on these forums so no point in us getting into all that now

[StillAChristian]

God did cast Adam and Eve out of his presence after they have sinned.

But he did talk to them face-to-face. The reason why he threw them out was because of what he had decided (or law), not because he couldn't face it. They disobeyed his rule, that's why they were shunned.

 

In regards of God, talking to Satan, I think that the purpose of the book of Job is to give us an idea of a proper response to God rather than to establish some form of cosmology:)

So in other words, Job is not literally true.

 

If the Bible contains stories that are just that, stories, then many of the other stories you read might be just the same thing, not literally true.

 

Not saying that the book of Job is all just a wisdom story and not literally true. I just mean that there is a limit to how much we can build a picture of God from that. Same with the Adam and Eve story:)

 

I have to admit that there are probably people who can answer this question much more fully than I can. All I know is Jesus was definitely unequivocal about God not tolerating evil:)

[StillAChristian]

I have to say I love these tags on the left..."Lee Strobel is the bomb". I LOLed. Props to the admins for a good sense of humour

[Ouroboros]

"You're spinning without answering the question." - that does answer the question. To God, we are no different from a serial killer. If we think otherwise, we are bringing our own system of values and applying to God. THAT is the thing that's evolved with time, not God.

It doesn't answer how an ETERNAL PUNISHMENT is the same as a TEMPORARY DISCIPLINARY PUNISHMENT.

 

Two widely different things. And if you consider thinking a sin being the same as a serial killer and deserving eternal punishment for it, it still will not make "discipline" to be the same as "eternal punishment."

 

"No, since they have a better chance if they do not hear. If the do not hear, they have a chance of getting into Heaven without having to make a decision to believe, while hearing requires that they have to believe." - more chance of them believing and being saved, I think. I'm still leaning towards the opinion from reading the Bible, that people who never heard of Jesus may still go to hell because they are separated from God by their sin.

Well, then it sucks to be human. Thank you Jesus.

 

"You don't know me or the other unbelievers on this website, yet you make judgmental statements about what you think people think and do. You don't know why people lost their faith. You're assuming you know and throw it out like it's a fact, when it's not. Because I don't recognize myself in what you're saying." - This is not meant to be a personal judgement against anyone, it's a general observation about human nature.

No, it's not a general observation of human nature since you misrepresented a whole bunch of people who are members here.

 

You can't swipe it away with some statement that your assumptions are The Truth™.

 

You judged people by making claims about them. Simple as that.

 

I find it curiously interesting that Christians are the most judgmental people I've met, besides Muslims. And when confronted with it, they deny that their judgmental attitude it judgmental at all. Instead they keep on claiming their opinions to be the truth.

 

I really want to stress this point here. This has been my experience of human nature IN GENERAL, of my own nature and that of other people's.

In other words, you are a person who sinned a lot before you were saved. I don't. And I didn't leave religion because I was concerned with myself. You don't know why I lost my faith, yet you made a statement to why people leave faith. Your statement does not match my experience, nor does it match many members here.

 

Basically, you're plainly wrong in your assessment about the people here.

 

That is why it makes perfect sense to me. I would invite everyone to inspect their life, look themselves (not anyone else) in the eye, and tell themselves honestly that they have never been selfish in their life.

Hah!

 

Could you explain why it is that just because someone was selfish sometime in their life it means that this is the reason why they lost their faith? I didn't lose my faith because I was selfish.

 

Besides that, explain to me how turning to Jesus to be saved from Hell is NOT a selfish act as well!!!

 

You are selfish by saving your ass from Hell. Salvation is a selfish act.

[Ouroboros]

The Bible is true because we know it's true

Nope. "We" do not know it is true.

 

You believe it's true. Huge difference.

 

and because of evidence for the resurrection,

Which are none.

 

which I'm sure has been debated many times on these forums so no point in us getting into all that now

Correct.

 

The evidence is not there. That's a fact.

[Ouroboros]

Not saying that the book of Job is all just a wisdom story and not literally true. I just mean that there is a limit to how much we can build a picture of God from that. Same with the Adam and Eve story:)

Which means, the stories are not completely true.

 

I have to admit that there are probably people who can answer this question much more fully than I can.

I doubt it. I've been here long enough to grow weary about hearing the same non-answers.

 

All I know is Jesus was definitely unequivocal about God not tolerating evil:)

You know this because you believe it. Not because you've seen it.

 

Like they say in science: Why? and Prove It!

[Ouroboros]

I have to say I love these tags on the left..."Lee Strobel is the bomb". I LOLed. Props to the admins for a good sense of humour

Not me!

 

I don't know who did it, but I guess the shoe fits.

[Guest I Love Dog]

 

God did cast Adam and Eve out of his presence after they have sinned.

 

Prove it.

 

It's an Abrahamic/Christian fairy story.

 

75% of the Worlds' population don't believe it, neither should you.

[pratt]

regarless of free will and pre destination. WHY EVANGELISE

 

simply it is the last command of jesus. if you dont heed this commandment, you do not know god and severity of hell. whether people believe or reject, it is god's and not your concern. THAT WOULD BE MY ANSWER many years ago.

 

but now to tell people you are going to hell because you refuse to believe you are a sinner and repungent to God even you are kinder and a better person than Ted Haggart or the paedophilic priests, HELL WITH THE GOSPEL

[Astreja]

What about all those people who we have hurt through our mistakes

If we have the power to correct our mistakes, be it through apologies or material restitution, we also have the responsibility to do so. Getting "forgiveness" from a third party is like paying $100 to an electrician rather than to the plumber who unclogged the toilet and fixed the leaky tap. Complete waste of time.

 

I do not see for a moment why a kind and loving Creator should accept anything that's even remotely bad in His presence, let alone the worst that we have to offer.

Why do you limit your alleged god's capacity for kindness in such a manner?

 

And are you seriously claiming that we're irredeemable if we merely come as we are, but perfectly acceptable if we let an innocent man die in our place? That is truly demented. No; it is worse than demented. It is the epitome of morality gone wrong.

[NaturalMary63]

However, practically speaking, when someone tells me about Jesus, I have a choice: to accept Jesus or not? It doesn't matter in making my decision, whether it was predestined or not. I'm simply responsible before God for the decision I make. That is the fallacy that people fall into when people say "oh, but if God has chosen me, then I would be accepting Jesus right now but I'm not, therefore he hasn't". Well, you could choose to accept Jesus, couldn't you? It's up to you to choose:)

 

 

Wait a minute, though... the problem, imo, is that if it's pre-destined, you DON'T have a real choice at all. Predestination and free will/choice are mutually exclusive. I don't understand how you can say that it doesn't matter whether or not it's predestined.... then assume you have a choice. YOU can only choose if there is no predestination.

 

Right? Or am I missing something?

 

There is both pre-destination and free will at the same time. We may not fully understands this but surely we wouldn't expect to be able to understand everything about a higher life-form? God is actually outside of time. It's like a person moving in two dimensions trying to understand the third dimension (kinda like when Homer crosses over to our world in the SImpsons) The two dimension person may be able to grasp the concept of three dimensions but they will never fully understand it, right?

 

 

Even if I were to accept that God is outside of time, and perhaps for him the mutually exclusive concepts of freewill and predestination have no meaning (which I don't believe, but for the sake of argument...)

 

Human beings DO live in THIS time/space continuum and these words/concepts have meaning and are mutually exclusive. Therefore to say that human lives are predestined is to negate that we have free will/choice.

[NaturalMary63]

The Bible is true because we know it's true

Nope. "We" do not know it is true.

 

You believe it's true. Huge difference.

 

and because of evidence for the resurrection,

Which are none.

 

 

Ouroboros is right. You're stating things as facts about the universe just because you (think that you) derive them from your ancient text, but you have no proof in the real world - outside of that text - for any of your claims. We do NOT know these claims are true - that's our whole point.

 

I'm curious what proof for the resurrection you're claiming there is, however. Are you saying the NT stories are proof enough? Or are you claiming the Shroud of Turin is Jesus's burial cloth and not a medieval art project? Or have you discovered some other evidence?

[Guest Xtech]

I often wonder if it has a hidden purpose: to solidify belief in the mind of the Evangelizer through public declaration. Actions of commitment, especially public ones, to anything, including beliefs, make it harder to release that belief. We don't want to lose face, to confront our own foolishness. That makes the commitment harder to undo. (See Leon Festinger's #2 factor that contributes to people holding a belief more strongly post-prophecy failure). Altar calls are also part of this. All public vows and commitments. All thing that make the one doing the action more bound to their belief.

 

Phanta

 

I think you are on to something here.

 

I recently had the experience of being evangelized to and there was something very needy about the proselytizing person. The dialog had an inauthenticity and well, lack of honesty, about it that made me wonder what it was 'really' about. A desire to dominate and 'be right' about subjects that have been unanswerable and debated for centuries. Some people have a strong need for closure, and validation. We debated the obvious points, and he clearly went for the win, in a lawyerly way, that is to say like a lawyer who sets out not to find out the truth but to get the most advantage for his client.

 

(Hey I can't figure out how to edit my posts for sorry if I double post)