centauri Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 The only things we know for sure are the ones that are in the Bible:) and that's what the Bible says. There is predestination and free will AT THE SAME TIME:) And we know from the Bible that God predestines and manipulates humans. The degree of predestination can't be known. We also know that in regard to belief, the so called "free will" isn't free. It's a choice, assuming that it hasn't been predestined, which is rooted in an ultimatum. Choices made under threat of punishment are not free choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
litassio Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 A proper father or mother, of course, will love their naughty children but they will still discipline them when they do the wrong thing, won't they? If they don't, they are not a good parent, they are settng up their kids for failure. Besides, in the case of us and God, we are the ones who rejected God. God loves us but if we walk away from Him, he essentially gives us what we want by sending us to Hell ie a place without God. Of course, we will find we don't want it once we have it, after all, but too late... In regards to people who have never heard of Jesus, we do know that God is a just God, so there *may* be hope for them there. However, in our day, only the bushmen of the Kalarahi, some tribes up the Amazon and possibly some Peruvian herdsmen may not have heard of Jesus. Everyone else is clearly still on the hook. "Do your best and live like a lion instead of like a spiritual beggar." The Bible actually calls on us to do just that. Just witness the many exhortations of Paul to various churches. What Jesus was on about was recognising that no matter how much we improve ourselves, we are not saved through that. But of course we should keep improving ourselves and live better lives, all the more so when we have a certainty of eternal life:) Your way of thinking is truly xian. Have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 ... What if I said something and hurt someone verbally, why do we think that that's not as bad as killing them? ... Yikes! If you really believe this nonsense, you are a seriously frightening and immoral person. PLEASE stay in Australia, specifically in the Outback far from any other human. P.S. I seriously doubt that even you are delusional enough not to see the difference between hurting a person's feelings and murdering a person. It's just mindless claptrap that you are uttering in a useless attempt to evangelize. I hope? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JupitersIo Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Ultimately, god is the end all be all. Nothing can happen without god's permission (according to holy text). since the bible says what is written in it is true, then god obviously has done a lot of bad things (like endorsing slavery... endorsing beating your slave, committing genocide with a flood, threatening to commit genocide again, putting the idea that women are inferior, giving everyone the idea of races, etc.). Of course, all these stories could be metaphors, in which case, who cares, right? We can still have our cake and eat it too, god can know everything and be everywhere, but we can be at fault for things like... slavery, genocide, murder, rape.... etc. I think Christians Evangelize to continue this spirit of god hating everyone. It's really because they hope when they die and see u get judged they can say, "told ya so!" but obviously, if the god of the bible exists as the bible says, god's gunna be more pissed with christians who follow paul's teachings and have recanted their pacifist and communistic ways.... obviously jesus made a big deal of chastising religious people, and it is obvious paul was a religious crazy man who saw a vision.... and wanted women to wear head scarfs and stuff. I should have known I was going to be an Atheist, when I was a Christian i refused to convert people. I thought the whole idea was stupid because god had already picked. I almost committed suicide a couple times, struggleing with the whole pre-destination thing. My two cents anyway.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 We can cite Moses seeing God's back to counterbalance that. However things may have been in the Garden, by Moses' time, clearly even Moses, who would have been the most righteous bloke around, could not face God and live:) What about Exodus 33:11? "Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albino_Raptor Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Because misery loves company, as do doubts. Pretty simple really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Why does every "Christian" I have ever met insist on believing in "free will"? It's not in the Bible. According to the Bible, nobody can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him (Jn 6 v 44). Nobody can believe without the Holy Spirit, and God only gives the Holy Spirit to the elect. It is not a matter of "choosing Jesus". People may be FREE, but that does not mean they are ABLE to come to Christ. Hence, when it comes to matters of salvation, they are NOT REALLY FREE AT ALL. Now, StillAChristian, put that in your pipe and smoke it. HARD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonwhatever Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Franknhonest is correct.... there are many Scriptures that indicate that if a person believes, it is because God chose them to believe, and if they don't believe, it is because God did not choose them to be among the elect. Remember it says that God hardened Pharoah's heart that he would not believe, that He could show His Power through it. Judas fell away because God had willed him to in order to fulfill the Scripture. Saul fell away because God had foreordained him to fall away, so that He could show the foolishness of man seeking after a King instead of seeking God to be their king. The Bible says that in the great tribulation, God will send many people strong delusion that they won't believe. Paul teaches that God has ordained some people to eternal life, as vessels of blessing, and others as vessels of wrath. And it is "God Who worketh it in you to believe," therefore "it is not him that willeth or him that runneth, but God" that ordains some to endure to the end, and others to fall away. And Paul then goes on to say who are we to question God on this? Even the beast and the false prophet will be raised up by God that they be defiant against Him so He can show forth His Glory in destroying them. Humans really are in many ways pawns in God's eternal chess game. I'm sure that Lucifer fell away, too, because God foreordained it, as well as the third of the angels of heaven who fell away. God has created many to receive eternal damnation to glorify Himself, and others to eternal life, again to glorify himself. And yet, when man sins or is righteous, he will be awarded or punished according to God's Will, though the person themself if righteous or wicked, it isbecaues God worked it in them to be that way. Abel was righteous, cause God willed it. Cain, Sodom and Gomorrah are evil becaues God ordained it, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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