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Goodbye Jesus

Dear Christians,


The Silent One

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Hello dear friends. As I've noticed throughout the Christian belief structure, there seems to be a lot of turning to the Bible to prove God. I'd like to explain my thoughts on this, and offer a small challenge.

 

I believe that to accept the Bible as true - and therefore for the proof within it to be accurate, and the 'fulfilled' prophecies within it to be considered anything more than chance and coincidence, we first have to establish its authenticity.

 

This requires 2 things: Proving God exists - and proving that God is the author/inspiration of the Bible. However, 2 authenticate a document - you need an outside source - rather than the document itself.

 

I challenge you therefore, to provide me with non-biblical evidences, recordings and proof that 1) God exists (if this is proving to dificult for you, you may ignore this point, and for the sake of the argument we will hypothetically accept God's existing a priori.) 2) He is the Christian God, and the Bible is his inspired word.

 

The conditions of this are as such: The Bible is not to be used, or referenced as a source. No scriptures, no prophecies, nothing from the Bible.

 

I eagerly look forward to any information you can provide me with.

 

Thank you, TSO

 

--------------------------

non-biblical evidence is provided by Ron Wyatt archaeologist.

 

Download videos and audios here:

 

Please visit: www.arkdiscovery.com

 

 

Cheers,

 

Levi.

 

Man, this work thing really takes me away from this forum.

Ron Wyatt! bla ha ha ha ha!

What other Urban Legends do you believe?

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I'm not going to try and convince you because nothing we Christians say are going to convince you. But for me....blah, blah, blah....

Why do Christians keep repeating this self-defeating mantra? "I'm not here to convince you, BUT, here I am talking nonsense to you ANYWAY."

 

I mean, for people who AREN'T trying to convince anyone, they surely do give the impression of people who ARE trying to convince everyone!

 

Funny behavior. Seems to me that a "vow of silence" would be more appropriate than constantly offering unsolicited opinions. :shrug:

 

Hey you guys asked the questions and you welcome the answers of a Christian. And I was expressing my personal belief just like you are. What's wrong with that? And I'm not trying to convince everyone. Discussion is just that discussion. Doesn't mean you are going to be convinced. No problem to me.

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Go for it, Sadie. We do welcome all people and points of view here.

 

We're just kinda curious to see if you have anything to say that's different than the last 20 or so thumpers that have come here.

 

I can name at least 10 that were clones of one another. Start with typical Jesus loves you - he wants you back - he died for you - I don't want to see you go to hell - John 3:16 - you only want to sin - I don't know why you fell away - maybe you weren't a true christian.

 

Then, after we fail to show your deity the proper respect and you can't refute any arguments here or convince anyone of a damned thing -

 

We get to : I feel sorry for you - hope you enjoy hell - go ahead and love the world - turn your back on your creator - satanic heathens. Just before you give up and bail.

 

Hope you have a little better repertoire.

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Go for it, Sadie. We do welcome all people and points of view here.

 

We're just kinda curious to see if you have anything to say that's different than the last 20 or so thumpers that have come here.

 

I can name at least 10 that were clones of one another. Start with typical Jesus loves you - he wants you back - he died for you - I don't want to see you go to hell - John 3:16 - you only want to sin - I don't know why you fell away - maybe you weren't a true christian.

 

Then, after we fail to show your deity the proper respect and you can't refute any arguments here or convince anyone of a damned thing -

 

We get to I feel sorry for you - hope you enjoy hell - go ahead and love the world - turn your back on your creator - satanic heathens. Just before you give up and bail.

 

Hope you have a little better repertoire.

 

Hey why would I say something that I know that you guys already know. You have heard about Jesus loving you, etc etc etc. And I don't see anyone of you as satanic heathens. Just to let ya'll know. I don't think the "enjoy hell" is a good method and I personally hate when it is used.

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Go for it, Sadie. We do welcome all people and points of view here.

 

We're just kinda curious to see if you have anything to say that's different than the last 20 or so thumpers that have come here.

 

I can name at least 10 that were clones of one another. Start with typical Jesus loves you - he wants you back - he died for you - I don't want to see you go to hell - John 3:16 - you only want to sin - I don't know why you fell away - maybe you weren't a true christian.

 

Then, after we fail to show your deity the proper respect and you can't refute any arguments here or convince anyone of a damned thing -

 

We get to : I feel sorry for you - hope you enjoy hell - go ahead and love the world - turn your back on your creator - satanic heathens. Just before you give up and bail.

 

Hope you have a little better repertoire.

You forgot the ever-popular "I'll pray for you"

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Hey why would I say something that I know that you guys already know.

 

What do you think there is to say about the christian experience that we don't know? Many of us were christians for a very long time. I became "born again" at the age of 22. I'm now 49. I was a Praise and Worship leader in church. I know the bible like the back of my hand. I've read tons of christian books. C.S. Lewis, Phillip Yancey, Max Lucado, Blackaby, Barnhouse, Spurgeon, Moody, and many others.

 

And there's people here who were christians longer than myself.

 

So, let's see what you have to say that we don't already know. If you stick around here, the chances are much better that you'll find out things you don't already know.

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Hey why would I say something that I know that you guys already know.

 

What do you think there is to say about the christian experience that we don't know? Many of us were christians for a very long time. I became "born again" at the age of 22. I'm now 49. I was a Praise and Worship leader in church. I know the bible like the back of my hand. I've read tons of christian books. C.S. Lewis, Phillip Yancey, Max Lucado, Blackaby, Barnhouse, Spurgeon, Moody, and many others.

 

And there's people here who were christians longer than myself.

 

So, let's see what you have to say that we don't already know. If you stick around here, the chances are much better that you'll find out things you don't already know.

 

I was never a Christian, so I don't have the experiences that you guys did of deconverting and it would be something that I find interesting. Hearing about you guys deconverting and taking such a colossal step is amazing to me.

 

My life has been a series of little steps, little learning experiences that amount to much the same as what you guys have been doing. At least from what I can see.

 

As for Sadie and Ruth, we've had so many Christians who come on here and say the exact same things and they either end up going off on us or becoming less and less of a "fundy" as times go by.

 

 

 

What I'd like to know is what exactly you think you can offer us by being here and if you can't offer us anything, why are you here? The bible tells you to not throw pearls before swine and we are about as unconvinced a group as the Infidels over at IIDB or even the IG guys over at infidelguy.

 

Are you gonna "shock my brain"? I'm not a spiritual person, but I can say that I'm as much at peace, filled with joy, and have as much security as you do in your Christhood yet I don't have this crutch of God.

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Are you gonna "shock my brain"? I'm not a spiritual person, but I can say that I'm as much at peace, filled with joy, and have as much security as you do in your Christhood yet I don't have this crutch of God.[/b]

 

Actually, your peace is more profound and more real than the "peace" proclaimed by the average xtian. How can any thinking xtian have real peace when the threat of hell hangs over either their own heads or over the heads of their friends and loved ones or even strangers who are not "saved?" How can a xtian experience true peace when they believe that god is constantly "testing" their faith by putting it to the fire? Instead of standing up on their own two feet and facing life, an xtian usually gets down on their knees and asks god to give them strength through life's trials; to be able to bear the burdens. Life becomes a series of tests to the xtian who believes that these things are making them stronger. When they, by the force of their own will and/or by coincidence, come through their trials, they then give god credit for bringing them through and then the cycle repeats.

 

Peace that xtianity gives is contrived and once the belief gives way to the truth that it is a myth a great sense of relief passes over those that deconvert. As a christian I was promised peace but truly I didn't know peace then even though I was for the most part unaware of this fact.

 

Sade probably considers the emotional buzz she gets when she sings Hosanna with her hands in the air on Sunday morning peace. She is young still.

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Peace that xtianity gives is contrived and once the belief gives way to the truth that it is a myth a great sense of relief passes over those that deconvert. As a christian I was promised peace but truly I didn't know peace then even though I was for the most part unaware of this fact.

 

 

It's not just that either. The Love of God that Ruth and Sadie try to sell is blatantly conditional and not even infinite or "agape".

 

I don't understand how they can sit and type this stuff with a straight face.

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Are you gonna "shock my brain"? I'm not a spiritual person, but I can say that I'm as much at peace, filled with joy, and have as much security as you do in your Christhood yet I don't have this crutch of God.[/b]

 

Actually, your peace is more profound and more real than the "peace" proclaimed by the average xtian. How can any thinking xtian have real peace when the threat of hell hangs over either their own heads or over the heads of their friends and loved ones or even strangers who are not "saved?" How can a xtian experience true peace when they believe that god is constantly "testing" their faith by putting it to the fire? Instead of standing up on their own two feet and facing life, an xtian usually gets down on their knees and asks god to give them strength through life's trials; to be able to bear the burdens. Life becomes a series of tests to the xtian who believes that these things are making them stronger. When they, by the force of their own will and/or by coincidence, come through their trials, they then give god credit for bringing them through and then the cycle repeats.

 

Peace that xtianity gives is contrived and once the belief gives way to the truth that it is a myth a great sense of relief passes over those that deconvert. As a christian I was promised peace but truly I didn't know peace then even though I was for the most part unaware of this fact.

 

Sade probably considers the emotional buzz she gets when she sings Hosanna with her hands in the air on Sunday morning peace. She is young still.

 

wow. putting it like that... wow.

 

You forgot about prayer.. all that time spent on prayer to a God that they should trust already knows what HE is doing and won't change what He is going to do Anyway with your prayer. Even asking is saying YOU know better than He.

 

Seems they have a whole lotta time that could be spend doing more creative things.

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Wow, I didn't even know this had been ressurected.

 

Of course I should have figured nothing would have been said to provide proof.

 

I'm sorry, Ron Wyatt? BWAHAHAHAH! That proven liar? That's great.

 

And an appeal to emotion.

 

*Sigh* I really am never going to get my proof am I? Ah well, I figured not.

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Hey why would I say something that I know that you guys already know.

 

If you stick around here, the chances are much better that you'll find out things you don't already know.

 

I have no problem with that.

 

Hey why would I say something that I know that you guys already know.

 

What do you think there is to say about the christian experience that we don't know? Many of us were christians for a very long time. I became "born again" at the age of 22. I'm now 49. I was a Praise and Worship leader in church. I know the bible like the back of my hand. I've read tons of christian books. C.S. Lewis, Phillip Yancey, Max Lucado, Blackaby, Barnhouse, Spurgeon, Moody, and many others.

 

And there's people here who were christians longer than myself.

 

So, let's see what you have to say that we don't already know. If you stick around here, the chances are much better that you'll find out things you don't already know.

 

I was never a Christian, so I don't have the experiences that you guys did of deconverting and it would be something that I find interesting. Hearing about you guys deconverting and taking such a colossal step is amazing to me.

 

My life has been a series of little steps, little learning experiences that amount to much the same as what you guys have been doing. At least from what I can see.

 

As for Sadie and Ruth, we've had so many Christians who come on here and say the exact same things and they either end up going off on us or becoming less and less of a "fundy" as times go by.

 

 

 

What I'd like to know is what exactly you think you can offer us by being here and if you can't offer us anything, why are you here? The bible tells you to not throw pearls before swine and we are about as unconvinced a group as the Infidels over at IIDB or even the IG guys over at infidelguy.

 

Are you gonna "shock my brain"? I'm not a spiritual person, but I can say that I'm as much at peace, filled with joy, and have as much security as you do in your Christhood yet I don't have this crutch of God.

 

As I've said in a previous post I'm also here to learn. There is no doubt things that you guys can teach me. I'm not above any of you And I don't consider the people on here swine.

 

Are you gonna "shock my brain"? I'm not a spiritual person, but I can say that I'm as much at peace, filled with joy, and have as much security as you do in your Christhood yet I don't have this crutch of God.[/b]

 

Actually, your peace is more profound and more real than the "peace" proclaimed by the average xtian. How can any thinking xtian have real peace when the threat of hell hangs over either their own heads or over the heads of their friends and loved ones or even strangers who are not "saved?" How can a xtian experience true peace when they believe that god is constantly "testing" their faith by putting it to the fire? Instead of standing up on their own two feet and facing life, an xtian usually gets down on their knees and asks god to give them strength through life's trials; to be able to bear the burdens. Life becomes a series of tests to the xtian who believes that these things are making them stronger. When they, by the force of their own will and/or by coincidence, come through their trials, they then give god credit for bringing them through and then the cycle repeats.

 

Peace that xtianity gives is contrived and once the belief gives way to the truth that it is a myth a great sense of relief passes over those that deconvert. As a christian I was promised peace but truly I didn't know peace then even though I was for the most part unaware of this fact.

 

Sade probably considers the emotional buzz she gets when she sings Hosanna with her hands in the air on Sunday morning peace. She is young still.

 

I have to smile at this post. No disrespect but it made me smile. I'll only say one thing, in my mind it takes greater strength to humble myself and get on my knees to pray than to try to go through life thinking I am all I need. and I know what not having peace is like. I've been there too.

 

 

 

It's not just that either. The Love of God that Ruth and Sadie try to sell is blatantly conditional and not even infinite or "agape".

 

I don't understand how they can sit and type this stuff with a straight face.

 

Conditional. ok

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I have to smile at this post. No disrespect but it made me smile. I'll only say one thing, in my mind it takes greater strength to humble myself and get on my knees to pray than to try to go through life thinking I am all I need. and I know what not having peace is like. I've been there too.

 

That's just spin, pure and simple. You in fact are all you have (other than friends, family, and your government) and getting on your knees in humility before something that doesn't exist is just an extra burden christians must perform before they like the rest of us either hide from their problems or stand up to them and deal with them.

 

We all go through trials that either strengthen us or defeat us dear. Getting on your knees during these trials doesn't create any better solutions than not doing so. Christians pray for help and they still lose jobs, still die, still [fill in the blank], just as non christians sometimes get lucky, sometimes are spared death, sometimes [fill in the blank].

 

Tell me one thing you ever got down on your knees that I can't explain away with coincidence, human psychology, or other natural phenomena.

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Instead of standing up on their own two feet and facing life, an xtian usually gets down on their knees and asks god to give them strength through life's trials; to be able to bear the burdens. Life becomes a series of tests to the xtian who believes that these things are making them stronger.

 

This reminded me of the book "Pilgrim's Progress". Where Christian finally throws off the burden while on his journey. The burden is supposed to be the weight of sin.

 

However, this book contradicts my experience. I was much more burdened (for a very long time) while "walking with the LORD".

 

The day I said goodbye to religion is the day the backpack full of rocks was removed from me.

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That's just spin, pure and simple. You in fact are all you have (other than friends, family, and your government) and getting on your knees in humility before something that doesn't exist is just an extra burden christians must perform before they like the rest of us either hide from their problems or stand up to them and deal with them.

 

We all go through trials that either strengthen us or defeat us dear. Getting on your knees during these trials doesn't create any better solutions than not doing so. Christians pray for help and they still lose jobs, still die, still [fill in the blank], just as non christians sometimes get lucky, sometimes are spared death, sometimes [fill in the blank].

 

Tell me one thing you ever got down on your knees that I can't explain away with coincidence, human psychology, or other natural phenomena.

 

Sorry I still don't believe that I am all I have. I have been healed as a child that aethistic doctors have said,"wasn't a coincidence" but beside that because I'm sure you will explain that away, I don't get on my knees just for solutions. It's deeper than that. I don't know if I can explain it. I'm not always good with words I just know what has happened to me while on my knees.

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I read something that made a lot of sense to me about all of these "miraculous" medical healings. Christians often cite the percentages - such as "I was only given a 5% chance of survival" etc.

 

Well, doctors (especially nowadays) usually assign artificially low numbers to illnesses to protect themselves from litigation. Just like when you go in for a tonsillectomy, you have to sign a paper that says the surgery has the potential to kill you. Even though it's only one in maybe 20,000 tonsillectomies that result in the death of the patient.

 

So, when these "miracles" happen, it's modern medicine that heals em. Modern medicine that's afraid they are gonna get sued.

 

Even when the doctor says - "I don't understand how this healing happened" - somebody should then ask the doctor if they are ready to convert to christianity. It'd be good for a laugh anyway.

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Sorry I still don't believe that I am all I have. I have been healed as a child that aethistic doctors have said,"wasn't a coincidence" but beside that because I'm sure you will explain that away, I don't get on my knees just for solutions. It's deeper than that. I don't know if I can explain it. I'm not always good with words I just know what has happened to me while on my knees.

 

But that still doesn't make your religion nor your god true. Do we need to be concerned about the beliefs of other who are healed "miraculously" by their god/gods/goddess beliefs? Do you see why many of us are not accepting? If we had to accept miraculous recovery's/healings as "proof" of a persons religions, we'd have to be accepting all religions, including the numerous non-christians ones. Of course, non-believers have "miracles" too, so??? Wonder "who's" god is responsible for those kind :Hmm:

 

Do you believe other gods are "true" when adherents of said god are healed much like yourself?

 

I never said you had to accept it did I? All I said was I know what God did for me when I was a child. That's all. Think what you want I don't mind, honestly.

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I never said you had to accept it did I? All I said was I know what God did for me when I was a child. That's all. Think what you want I don't mind, honestly.

 

I know that you didn't. However, being that mainstream Christianity only believes that there is one god and their god is "the" god, I was basically asking your opinion about miracles in those of other beliefs and/or non-belief. Do you believe them and does that confirm their beliefs? If your beliefs are confirmed and made true to you, why do mainstream Christians not accept others experiences for confirmation of their beliefs?

 

Perhaps you are not mainstream in your beliefs though as we have a few universalist on board, we're getting used to non-fundy views although many of us (including me) have issues with their views too. If you are mainstream though, I'm interested in your opinion on this issue.

 

Ok. I actually do not know what it means when others from other religions are healed. Although becuase of my experience with satanic um things(lack of words on what to call it sorry) I know that Satan has power. He is a great imitator of God. So my view on it is that when others worship "other gods" it is Satan behind what is being done. Satan is a deceiver. They are healed physically yet spiritually Satan has their souls. I love the story of Moses turning his staff into a snake. And well so did all the other dudes when they prayed to their "gods". Some would say ,"see it can happen without the Christian's God" Ya it can but I look at what happened next. Moses' serpent ate the rest. Satan can imitate God's works but that doesn't make them good. Am I making any sense? If not I'll try to explain better later.

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Not to mention that the all-knowing and all-powerful god let's Satan do want he wants which ultimatly makes your god responsible.

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Satan is a deceiver.

 

Show where does it say in the OT about Satan being a deciever?

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I never said you had to accept it did I? All I said was I know what God did for me when I was a child. That's all. Think what you want I don't mind, honestly.

 

I know that you didn't. However, being that mainstream Christianity only believes that there is one god and their god is "the" god, I was basically asking your opinion about miracles in those of other beliefs and/or non-belief. Do you believe them and does that confirm their beliefs? If your beliefs are confirmed and made true to you, why do mainstream Christians not accept others experiences for confirmation of their beliefs?

 

Perhaps you are not mainstream in your beliefs though as we have a few universalist on board, we're getting used to non-fundy views although many of us (including me) have issues with their views too. If you are mainstream though, I'm interested in your opinion on this issue.

 

Ok. I actually do not know what it means when others from other religions are healed. Although becuase of my experience with satanic um things(lack of words on what to call it sorry)

 

And this is where I stopped reading.

 

Please prove Satan wasn't behind YOUR healing.

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Ok. I actually do not know what it means when others from other religions are healed. Although becuase of my experience with satanic um things(lack of words on what to call it sorry) I know that Satan has power. He is a great imitator of God. So my view on it is that when others worship "other gods" it is Satan behind what is being done. Satan is a deceiver. They are healed physically yet spiritually Satan has their souls. I love the story of Moses turning his staff into a snake. And well so did all the other dudes when they prayed to their "gods". Some would say ,"see it can happen without the Christian's God" Ya it can but I look at what happened next. Moses' serpent ate the rest. Satan can imitate God's works but that doesn't make them good. Am I making any sense? If not I'll try to explain better later.

 

Yes, like others I think this explanation that Christians give of healings in other religions creates more problems. there are a huge number of healing stories from all over the world in many religions. Yet, Christians point to healings as proof of their own faith and proof of the Bible. When someone says, but there was this Hindu swami who healed someone (as a kid I was raised with many such accounts from Hinduism), the fundamentalist Christian replies, if it really happened, it must have been a counterfeit miracle by Satan. How does s/he know that? Because Hinduism goes against the bible. How do we know the Bible is true? Cause of christian miracles. How do we know other miracles are counterfeits? Cause the Bible refutes those religions. See how circular this is? The fundamentalist Christian puts out a bunch of claims that cannot be verified or falsified because there are always ad hoc explanations of any phenomenon that doesn't fit the theory.

 

Vigile's suggestions are better explanations for the causes of these healings.

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Yes, like others I think this explanation that Christians give of healings in other religions creates more problems. there are a huge number of healing stories from all over the world in many religions. Yet, Christians point to healings as proof of their own faith and proof of the Bible. When someone says, but there was this Hindu swami who healed someone (as a kid I was raised with many such accounts from Hinduism),

 

 

Hey I am a ex-hindu from India

 

So I can cite dozens of Miracles that are done by modern hindu personalities. hindu mythology is about miracles man.

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I guess someone could say that God works through all religions so all miracles are His actions. But then I don't see how that person could appeal to miracles as evidence for the exclusive truth of his/her own religion as against the other religions.

 

Pritishd, have you posted your ex-timony?

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I've been watching this thread, and I've been waiting for someone to drop this other shoe, but it hasn't fallen yet. So here I am with my size 11s.

 

So, Sadie, you believe that these "healings" in other religions are the work of "Satan"? You're actually saying that the "Father of Lies and Destruction" is capable of doing the "good" work of God's Holy Spirit? My, my. I wonder what YOUR bible has to say about this? Oh, don't fret. I won't make you search for the scripture. I've got a bible handy.

22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He has Beelzebub," and, "By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons."

23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: "How can Satan cast out Satan?

24 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

25 "And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

26 "And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end.

27 "No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house.

28 "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter;

29 "but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"

30 because they said, "He has an unclean spirit."

You see, when anyone says that SATAN is doing what only GOD can do, then THAT is BLASPHEMY against the Holy Spirit.

 

IF "healings" are occurring ANYWHERE, and to ANYONE, then by default it is GOD (Bible-God) who, by His mercy, is behind it. NOT SATAN. "Jesus" says that the devil would NOT perform an action against himself. (In other words, why would Satan "heal" anyone?)

 

Sadie, giving credit to Satan in all these "healings" is a no-no. You can't discredit other religions' "healings" by invoking the "devil did it". The BEST that you can do is admit that they are ALL legitimate, and ALL done by your God. Which means your religion isn't all that special or unique. Is it?

 

 

Now, how's THAT for tossing a "monkey wrench" into the works? :wicked:

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