Guest Valk0010 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 First, if we are unable to choose to sin, then either our wills are not freewill or sinning is not a real choice. You miss my point, can you have free will, without sin being a factor. That is my question. You miss the point entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkins Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 First, if we are unable to choose to sin, then either our wills are not freewill or sinning is not a real choice. You miss my point, can you have free will, without sin being a factor. That is my question. You miss the point entirely. No, freewill will inevitably include the choosing with God or not, worshiping God or not, loving God or not, obedient or not, hurting others or not. Those are all factors confining by the defined Law at this moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Of course without changes, to keep heaven eternally secure, we would then have to have free will and not be able or at least remade to be not willing to, do evil. And if that is possible, then what is the point of earth. Because if there is free will without evil, then evil is no longer required for free will, if there is a god of course. First, if we are unable to choose to sin, then either our wills are not freewill or sinning is not a real choice. So when true freewills are in front of real choices, some will have to choose to sin. Which means, we as true freewills will have to divide. Earth is thus a place for human freewills to divide. God just gets the separated teams, one being with God, the other not being with God. If the freewills in heaven will choose to sin, then God would have to leave their to another team when they are on earth's time. Do you have a futurnic sense? (usually we don't, as humans) Well if we are already made by god, known not to want to sin, yet have free will (people who invoke things like middle knowledge from I can tell bring this up.) Then why doesn't go create people that way in the first place. Either you don't want to sin or you can't, while your in heaven. Either way logically if it can work in heaven it can work on earth too. Its just a manner of how creation is decided. Of course if this whole point is people having to choose to go to heaven, and if things like above are possible. Then still what is the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkins Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Well if we are already made by god, known not to want to sin, yet have free will (people who invoke things like middle knowledge from I can tell bring this up.) Then why doesn't go create people that way in the first place. Either you don't want to sin or you can't, while your in heaven. Either way logically if it can work in heaven it can work on earth too. Its just a manner of how creation is decided. Of course if this whole point is people having to choose to go to heaven, and if things like above are possible. Then still what is the point. Like I said, freewill simultaneously means humans will divide, or else that's not true freewill at all. That's why the at least two separated results. If there's only those choosing not to sin (i.e. 100% wills choosing God but 0% not choosing), it is kinda like a circular square. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Well if we are already made by god, known not to want to sin, yet have free will (people who invoke things like middle knowledge from I can tell bring this up.) Then why doesn't go create people that way in the first place. Either you don't want to sin or you can't, while your in heaven. Either way logically if it can work in heaven it can work on earth too. Its just a manner of how creation is decided. Of course if this whole point is people having to choose to go to heaven, and if things like above are possible. Then still what is the point. Like I said, freewill simultaneously means humans will divide, or else that's not true freewill at all. That's why the at least two separated results. If there's only those choosing not to sin (i.e. 100% wills choosing God but 0% not choosing), it is kinda like a circular square. Is that a biblical definition, or your own, what is your evidence then, that only your definition is coherent and not contradictory or just necessary? So since you believe evil is required for free will. How will we live in heaven, just total determinism? In short what are your views fully on free will as a concept? I believe personally that determinism and choice(free will) aren't a contradiction. I also believe that Free will is the ability to choose. That doesn't say anything about the choices, its only the ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leinad89 Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Well if we are already made by god, known not to want to sin, yet have free will (people who invoke things like middle knowledge from I can tell bring this up.) Then why doesn't go create people that way in the first place. Either you don't want to sin or you can't, while your in heaven. Either way logically if it can work in heaven it can work on earth too. Its just a manner of how creation is decided. Of course if this whole point is people having to choose to go to heaven, and if things like above are possible. Then still what is the point. Like I said, freewill simultaneously means humans will divide, or else that's not true freewill at all. That's why the at least two separated results. If there's only those choosing not to sin (i.e. 100% wills choosing God but 0% not choosing), it is kinda like a circular square. So what do you propose happens to tribal-people out in some faraway jungle, who die without ever hearing the gospel? If they die without taking a stance on God? What do you propose happens to abortion-victims or children who die before having the cognitive skills to make them accountable for such a decision? If a 1-year old infant is murdered/dies of a disease or in some other way is killed, where does this soul go? According to you, it clearly can't go to heaven because it hasn't exercised its free will and made a choice. If this person goes to heaven, it eradicates the need for a life of free will on earth, seeing as God is able to create souls and take them straight to heaven. If this person goes to hell, God is nothing but cruel, creating vast numbers of souls that through circumstance die and get tortured forever before being able to choose him. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leinad89 Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 But it won't be as free as it was when Lucifer was an archangel. He had free will, and could rise up against God, but you will not, because of some lobotomy of your ability to want to disagree with your beloved supreme leader. Heaven will only be filled with a bunch of sycophants. Not to mentioned that Lucifer was in the vast goodness of God. Evil didn't even exist yet, and he could choose to do it. An earlier argument consisted of us being face2face with God 24/7 and that there would be no evil there to corrupt you/make you think bad things. WELL DIDN'T THAT HAPPEN TO LUCIFER? Even if one says that the story of the rebellion of Lucifer is a myth, it just takes us on to Adam and Eve and that THEY invented evil. How could THEY even begin to think about imagining something better when there was no evil in existence, and they were face2face with God, basking in his infinite goodness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 But it won't be as free as it was when Lucifer was an archangel. He had free will, and could rise up against God, but you will not, because of some lobotomy of your ability to want to disagree with your beloved supreme leader. Heaven will only be filled with a bunch of sycophants. Not to mentioned that Lucifer was in the vast goodness of God. Evil didn't even exist yet, and he could choose to do it. An earlier argument consisted of us being face2face with God 24/7 and that there would be no evil there to corrupt you/make you think bad things. WELL DIDN'T THAT HAPPEN TO LUCIFER? Even if one says that the story of the rebellion of Lucifer is a myth, it just takes us on to Adam and Eve and that THEY invented evil. How could THEY even begin to think about imagining something better when there was no evil in existence, and they were face2face with God, basking in his infinite goodness? Exactly. I have thought about that too, but Christians fail to see the problem. How could Lucifer, standing in God's glory, power, and awesomeness even consider to sin or create evil? And how? How can the created create something that is not part of the creator? How could Satan create a "hole" in the fabric of God? Unless God allowed it or had already created it. If the First Cause argument is taken to its ultimate end, God must be the root of all evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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