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A Cool Email I Got From One Of The Members Of The Atheist Experience That I Thought Might Help Lurkers.


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Guest Valk0010

Here is what I originally emailed them to say

 

Hello.

 

I have been talking with a christian over the past few days. And her only argument for the validity of christianity is that the entire OT, in various ways, foreshadows, predicts, alludes to the stuff that happened in the new testament and therefore proves the validity of the Christian god. I am not a expert in the OT, and not even 100 percent sure how to deal with this argument. Do you have any advice how to deal with a argument like that, or some good sources to read about the subject. Thanks your time.

 

Responses

 

Well, "This half of the book proves that half of the book" is hardly a sound argument at the most baseline level. The question at hand is, why should we consider anything in the book to be a valid source of information?

 

Additionally, let me add it's a thick set of books--both halves. If you go hunting for things that remind you of other things...in a book that is written primarily by the people of a single cultural context...you may find similarities (foreshadowing?).

 

So, we have Abraham who nearly sacrifices his kid to show he loves god. Then you have Jephthah who sacrifices his kid out of devotion to god. Then later in the New Testament, you have god sacrificing His kid out of love for humanity...foreshadowing, or the same story over and over again because it's a cultural theme with these people to say "If you really loved me, you'd kill your kids for me"?

 

There are a load of "prophecies" that are about other people--like kinds in the Old Testament...that later on, somebody in the New Testament quotes out of context and says it's about Jesus. Christians will generally agree it's about the OT king...but, they add, since the New Testament author says it's about Jesus...well, it was also about Jesus.

 

I find things like this very unimpressive. And it's up to you if you want to go down this road. Most often, after reading the "prophecy" to you--they then have to explain how it fits...some great prophecies, right? And, since we don't know that any events in the life of Jesus are historically accurate--since it's manuscripts based on stories told by people who aren't identified (or who admit they never saw Jesus themselves)...how do we know any event in the OT that foreshadows something about Jesus is foreshadowing something Jesus really was/said/did? If Jesus says "XYZ" in Matthew...did he really live and say XYZ? Or did the author of Matthew (or some later person who edited Matthew) think it would be cool if Jesus had said XYZ, because it would be like that OT passage...and so they wrote Jesus said XYZ. And as Matt says...why exactly are we believing that's really what Jesus was/said/did?

 

It's a quagmire. If you want to deal with that route--I wouldn't bother with more than one or two before stopping and saying to the person "I see a pattern here...are they all going to be this tenuous--or do you have any that are actually impressive?"

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The Christian made a claim that should be challenged by the atheist.

Christianity is a replacement religion and is revisionist theology if the OT is to be taken seriously.

Although Christianity uses pieces of the OT to launch itself, it changes the rules and characters dramatically.

 

Some questions the atheist should ask the Christian:

(expect a lot of special pleading, vague allusions, and dancing in response)

 

Specifically:

 

Where does the OT say that a king messiah would be born of a virgin?

(Isa 7:14 doesn't work for a variety of reasons)

 

What are the job requirements for a king messiah in the messianic era and how did Jesus fulfill them?

 

Where does the OT say that a king messiah would come once, be killed, rise from the dead after three days, and require a second coming thousands of years later to accomplish what he failed to do the first time?

 

Where does the OT say that the Levitical priesthood would be replaced?

 

Where does the OT say that the new covenant would replace the law and require faith in a human sacrifice instead?

 

Where does the OT law say that humans are appropriate sin sacrifices?

 

Where does the OT say that passover lambs are sin sacrifices?

 

If the Christian is a Trinitarian, where does the OT say that God is three persons?

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I believe now. I spent yesterday from before 6am to 5:30pm reading the Bible and praying. I didn't even eat food, other than some cheese crackers, until I'd read and prayed for 10 hours. It's true, I believe it, and I finally see my sin. I had said, "I'm a sinner" before, just kind of making a statement but not really feeling it (like MagickMonkey, etc., who saw my comments about being a sinner when I was just scared but didn't experience the reality of it, and of the love of Jesus), but now I believe that and I see that I've hurt people. I can answer those questions if you want, but I don't want to argue.

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Guest I Love Dog

The Christian made a claim that should be challenged by the atheist.

Christianity is a replacement religion and is revisionist theology if the OT is to be taken seriously.

Although Christianity uses pieces of the OT to launch itself, it changes the rules and characters dramatically.

 

Some questions the atheist should ask the Christian:

(expect a lot of special pleading, vague allusions, and dancing in response)

 

Specifically:

 

Where does the OT say that a king messiah would be born of a virgin?

(Isa 7:14 doesn't work for a variety of reasons)

 

What are the job requirements for a king messiah in the messianic era and how did Jesus fulfill them?

 

Where does the OT say that a king messiah would come once, be killed, rise from the dead after three days, and require a second coming thousands of years later to accomplish what he failed to do the first time?

 

Where does the OT say that the Levitical priesthood would be replaced?

 

Where does the OT say that the new covenant would replace the law and require faith in a human sacrifice instead?

 

Where does the OT law say that humans are appropriate sin sacrifices?

 

Where does the OT say that passover lambs are sin sacrifices?

 

If the Christian is a Trinitarian, where does the OT say that God is three persons?

 

All together now: It was the Romans! and the Greeks. Both had playwrights/script writers equal to anything that modern day Hollywood could come up with!

 

The Trinity actually came from the Egyptian Christian movement. Just for some added exotic input to the Roman design for Christianity.

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I believe now. I spent yesterday from before 6am to 5:30pm reading the Bible and praying. I didn't even eat food, other than some cheese crackers, until I'd read and prayed for 10 hours. It's true, I believe it, and I finally see my sin. I had said, "I'm a sinner" before, just kind of making a statement but not really feeling it (like MagickMonkey, etc., who saw my comments about being a sinner when I was just scared but didn't experience the reality of it, and of the love of Jesus), but now I believe that and I see that I've hurt people. I can answer those questions if you want, but I don't want to argue.

 

I won't argue, just want to say that your are NOT a sinner!

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I believe now. I spent yesterday from before 6am to 5:30pm reading the Bible and praying. I didn't even eat food, other than some cheese crackers, until I'd read and prayed for 10 hours. It's true, I believe it, and I finally see my sin. I had said, "I'm a sinner" before, just kind of making a statement but not really feeling it (like MagickMonkey, etc., who saw my comments about being a sinner when I was just scared but didn't experience the reality of it, and of the love of Jesus), but now I believe that and I see that I've hurt people. I can answer those questions if you want, but I don't want to argue.

 

Did you hold your breath for 10 hours too?

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The OT was invented by the Jews when they began to come out of Babylon 500 years before the birth of Jesus. It was at this time they wrote their holy books and prophecies, after the fact which proves their are no valid prophecies in the babble. The Jews brought a religion from out of Babylon with them they called Judaism. Before that there were the Hebrews with no religion. Jews fabricated their existence. Then we have Christians and the New Testament which they invented in order to give them credibility and they claim the fabricated OT is true in order to claim the Christian religion is true. Then came the Mormons who wrote their holy book claiming the fabricated OT and NT were true but theirs was truer than the OT and NT. There is no truth in historical fiction. Fiction is fiction. There is too much disparity in beliefs between xtians, Jews and Mormons for any of their works of fiction to have any meaning, unless you want your own magical spiritual experience as a Mormon Christian Jew™.Don't forget Islam came about as the result of xtian incursion into the mid east. There was no Islam prior to the crusades. Islam gave nonbelievers of xtianity the opportunity to create their version of reality to compete with the murderous rampage of xtianity in the 'holy land.' What a crock!

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Where does the OT say that a king messiah would be born of a virgin?

(Isa 7:14 doesn't work for a variety of reasons)

 

That can mean either young maiden or virgin. Yeah, it's not another Hebrew word, it's almah. I looked it up, and despite almah being used throughout the Old Testament from what I remember (I read this the other night and forgot where I found the site), there were only two times in the Old Testament that almah was translated by scholars into parthenos, and both times were referring to a virgin.

 

What are the job requirements for a king messiah in the messianic era and how did Jesus fulfill them?

 

What a bunch of words to ask a nonsensical question. The role of the Messiah, the redeemer, is (you guessed it) to redeem His people. He frees them from the bondage of sin. He is a ransom for many.

 

Where does the OT say that a king messiah would come once, be killed, rise from the dead after three days, and require a second coming thousands of years later to accomplish what he failed to do the first time?

 

What a loaded question. Isaiah 7:3, like you quoted, and many other verses. Be killed? Isaiah 53, specifically 53:7-10. Die and be raised from the dead after 3 days? The sign of Jonah.

 

Where does the OT say that the Levitical priesthood would be replaced?

 

Hebrews 7 refers to the Melchisedec foreshadowing. I don't remember that part of the Old Testament well enough right now, and I'm answering these hastily because it seems like if you had an honest interest in it and sat down and read about the priests in the Old Testament, and paid attention, that I wouldn't have to write this.

 

Where does the OT say that the new covenant would replace the law and require faith in a human sacrifice instead?

 

The Old Testament is a shadow of things to come. The New Testament reveals these things. Abraham sacrificing his son comes to mind, but all of the sacrifices foreshadow the ultimate sacrifice.

 

Where does the OT law say that humans are appropriate sin sacrifices?

 

Abraham's son, Jonah, etc.

 

Where does the OT say that passover lambs are sin sacrifices?

 

The Passover lamb. Hello? And just in case you try something underhanded, check out Genesis 22:8.

 

If the Christian is a Trinitarian, where does the OT say that God is three persons?

 

It's alluded to, like everything else that you seem to not want to see or use any real reasoning with, but seem set on demanding that it explain it to you on your terms. Genesis 1:26, Psalm 110:1, etc.

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One of the reasons I don't like debating this topic is that assumes to gospels,to be reliable in this area. I don't trust the gospels to be reliable in this area.

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The Old Testament is a shadow of things to come. The New Testament reveals these things. Abraham sacrificing his son comes to mind, but all of the sacrifices foreshadow the ultimate sacrifice.

 

 

Hey dude, show me you will love and obey me by MURDERING your child, here's the gun, place it to his/her head and paint the ground with their brains.

 

Does this not sound ridiculous? You are willfully stupid OQ.

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Guest Valk0010

 

The Old Testament is a shadow of things to come. The New Testament reveals these things. Abraham sacrificing his son comes to mind, but all of the sacrifices foreshadow the ultimate sacrifice.

 

 

Hey dude, show me you will love and obey me by MURDERING your child, here's the gun, place it to his head and paint the ground with his brains.

 

Does this not sound ridiculous? You are willfully stupid OQ.

And if you were wrong X, which your not, how is this a connection,the purpose of the abraham story was to show his devotion to god, god and jesus, different purpose.

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And if you were wrong X, which your not, how is this a connection,the purpose of the abraham story was to show his devotion to god, god and jesus, different purpose.

 

I think the purpose of that event is two-fold, at least: 1. God is going to provide a sacrifice, and it's the very Son that He loves, and 2. Have faith and obey; hold nothing back, and trust God, and your faith will be counted as righteousness.

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And if you were wrong X, which your not, how is this a connection,the purpose of the abraham story was to show his devotion to god, god and jesus, different purpose.

 

I think the purpose of that event is two-fold, at least: 1. God is going to provide a sacrifice, and it's the very Son that He loves, and 2. Have faith and obey; hold nothing back, and trust God, and your faith will be counted as righteousness.

I would say your forcing a connection between two different things if that makes sense.

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Where does the OT say that a king messiah would be born of a virgin?

(Isa 7:14 doesn't work for a variety of reasons)

 

That can mean either young maiden or virgin. Yeah, it's not another Hebrew word, it's almah. I looked it up, and despite almah being used throughout the Old Testament from what I remember (I read this the other night and forgot where I found the site), there were only two times in the Old Testament that almah was translated by scholars into parthenos, and both times were referring to a virgin.

The text in Isa 7:14 doesn’t indicate the child was to be a king messiah.

If the child was indeed to be born of a virgin and also be a king, that would violate the paternal blood link to David that was promised by God.

Regarding almah:

Had Isaiah wished to speak about a virgin birth, he would have used the word betulah not alma. Betulah is a common word in the Jewish scriptures, and can only mean “virgin.”

 

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/alma.html

 

What are the job requirements for a king messiah in the messianic era and how did Jesus fulfill them?

 

What a bunch of words to ask a nonsensical question. The role of the Messiah, the redeemer, is (you guessed it) to redeem His people. He frees them from the bondage of sin. He is a ransom for many.

The requirements call for more than that vague reply.

Your use of the word nonsensical is obtuse.

In order to recognize a valid king messiah, one would need to know if he fulfilled the job requirements.

Specifically, what are some of them?

One might even think that in order to be a valid king, he would have to sit on the throne of David.

 

Where does the OT say that a king messiah would come once, be killed, rise from the dead after three days, and require a second coming thousands of years later to accomplish what he failed to do the first time?

 

What a loaded question. Isaiah 7:3, like you quoted, and many other verses. Be killed? Isaiah 53, specifically 53:7-10. Die and be raised from the dead after 3 days? The sign of Jonah.

Why is the question loaded?

Is it too much to ask for proof about extraordinary claims?

Isa 7 doesn’t identify a king messiah.

Isa 53 doesn’t identify a king messiah either, as the servant is said to be Israel.

Verses 7-10 are written in past tense.

Jesus didn’t fulfill the sign of Jonah, not being in the earth for 3 days and 3 nights.

Nor did Jesus appear to the public afterward.

Also, where’s the thousands of year gap between first arrival and job completion?

 

 

Where does the OT say that the Levitical priesthood would be replaced?

 

Hebrews 7 refers to the Melchisedec foreshadowing. I don't remember that part of the Old Testament well enough right now, and I'm answering these hastily because it seems like if you had an honest interest in it and sat down and read about the priests in the Old Testament, and paid attention, that I wouldn't have to write this.

With regard to paying attention:

Since I already stated my position that Christianity is revisionist theology, this doesn’t answer anything.

The Book of Hebrews is New Testament, not Old Testament.

 

Where does the OT say that the new covenant would replace the law and require faith in a human sacrifice instead?

 

The Old Testament is a shadow of things to come. The New Testament reveals these things. Abraham sacrificing his son comes to mind, but all of the sacrifices foreshadow the ultimate sacrifice.

 

Calling something a shadow is a backhanded way of devaluing and minimizing it.

Let’s try again:

Where does the OT say that the new covenant would replace the law and require faith in a human sacrifice instead?

Where does God actually define the new covenant in the Old Testament?

 

Where does the OT law say that humans are appropriate sin sacrifices?

 

Abraham's son, Jonah, etc.

I don’t recall Abraham’s son being killed.

Was Abraham before or after the law of God was given by Moses?

Could you be more specific about Jonah? (i.e. specifically, how does that tie in with Lev 4?)

 

Where does the OT say that passover lambs are sin sacrifices?

 

The Passover lamb. Hello? And just in case you try something underhanded, check out Genesis 22:8.

Underhanded meaning what exactly?

Didn’t Genesis happen before Exodus?

Where does God give his rules on what passover lambs represent?

Where does God say that passover lambs are to atone for sin?

 

If the Christian is a Trinitarian, where does the OT say that God is three persons?

 

It's alluded to, like everything else that you seem to not want to see or use any real reasoning with, but seem set on demanding that it explain it to you on your terms. Genesis 1:26, Psalm 110:1, etc.

So far, I haven’t seen a great deal of reasoning in your responses, but a desire to substitute vague allusions for specific scriptural support.

Gen 1:26 etc, doesn’t say anything about God being three persons, nor does it revoke his declaration that he is a singular being with no others beside him.

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... it seems like if you had an honest interest in it and sat down and read about the priests in the Old Testament, and paid attention, that I wouldn't have to write this.

Wasn't it you, not long back, who was on here asking someone to do your god damn homework for you because you were too fucking lazy to do it yourself? Get a fucking grip, you imbecile .... no one ever asked you to answer anything. As far as I can tell, you are voluntarily electing to puke your babbling beliefs on us, as if we needed, wanted, or asked you to.

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Gracious. I can't recall seeing Pappy go off like that. :scratch:

 

The whole world is going mad!

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Gracious. I can't recall seeing Pappy go off like that. :scratch:

 

The whole world is going mad!

I had to recant some of it ... It is just that this is the same Christard who, not long ago, was admitting to being lazy and wanting us to "answer her one question". Now she is chastising Centauri for not reading and paying attention, when Centauri has more knowledge in his big toe than this idiot will ever know! I got carried away with myself. Wendyshrug.gif

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I had to recant some of it ... It is just that this is the same Christard who, not long ago, was admitting to being lazy and wanting us to "answer her one question". Now she is chastising Centauri for not reading and paying attention, when Centauri has more knowledge in his big toe than this idiot will ever know! I got carried away with myself. Wendyshrug.gif

I've lost it before Pappy. I'm not judging you. I just feel like everything is going crazy. You know? :shrug:

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I've lost it before Pappy. I'm not judging you. I just feel like everything is going crazy. You know? :shrug:

Don't let it bother you too much Legion. It seems to me that chaos and peace run in cycles on a never ending wheel. The best news we can have during chaos is that we are only passing through it toward peace, but know that it will come around again in due time.

 

Pappy

 

 

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