Antlerman Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Speaking for myself only, I don't trust subjectivity it, has proven me wrong more times then not. Before I even have my first sip of coffee.... I think this is the core of the disconnect. You, and others, and myself in the past very much included in this statement, pendulum swung to the opposite extreme, distrusting ourselves altogether, sort of like what's illustrated in this: Now that's not a perfect analogy, but it gets the point across. If suddenly now you shut off listening to the subjective side of you, trying to explore or understand it's valid nature and integral place within you, then you equally do what you did when you ran astray listening to nothing but your emotions, just in opposite direction. Where this illustration above is not a perfect analogy is that the subjective is not identical with the emotional. The subjective is also thought, an idea, a belief, a perspective, an interpretation. Emotions are more products of this, then the nature of them. Emotions are typically responses to thought, an interpretation, like a caboose following behind the train engine. Those interpretations occur in the subjective space. Now you will argue that you can't trust yourself to make good interpretation because you've made poor judgment calls in the past, and that can be a valid conclusion to make. However, that call itself, is a subjective interpretation of events. A subjective thought. If in fact you don't trust subjectivity, then you should not trust your thoughts here either. You cannot escape the subjective anymore than you could the objective. Eventually, relying on nothing but some external authority alone will put you so out of touch with understanding and relating to your own subjective nature that you disconnect and go off in the opposite direction, having lost touch with your subjective, just like loosing touch with reason occurred on the other side. Then your judgment calls with be nothing but calculations of some soulless brain, and fail in their abilities to navigate the dynamic and fluid waters of human existence. You may not go "off the deep end", but you would no longer be in the water at all, and instead drying up on land under the hot sun. What needs to happen is to develop a better balance between the objective and the subjective. Life is an interpretive dance, responding to the external world with the internal world, and visa versa. If we only sit and analyze its components 'evidentially', and fail to then internalize it within a developed subjective space, then we aren't dancing with it at all. If we just start running amok with subjective responses without any understanding of the current landscape of the external world, then we are not dancing either, but flaying about in our own disconnected worlds running into walls and falling off cliffs. Both. Balance. Subjective and Objective. If you run away from either in some over-compensating reaction to errors, you will become out of balance. We do use the subjective every moment of every day, and as much as we need to add to our understanding the objective world, we should do equally as much with the subjective. There is no way the objective world enters our space without the subjective right there. We interpret the world subjectively, and all the much more when dealing with others in their subjective spaces, and not even to mention interpreting the as of yet unknown or undiscovered in the world of intuition. Balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 To say the subjective is irrelevant is to deny exactly one half of yourself. No, it isn't. I'm out too. The subjective is entirely indispensible. There is no understanding of the objective world without a subjective world within which to mirror it. Bingo. And the evolving ways in which we represent it says something about the nature of the subjective itself, and beyond. The "real" world is subjectively framed, by that subjective self. To not try to understand that as much as we do the objective world is a rather lopsided affair and understanding of reality. The interesting thing seems that with such an emphasis on the 'objective' world, the sense of subjective self becomes lost to the point it seems more an illusion or fantasy, not to be trusted but submitted to the belief that facts are in fact, facts. blah blah blah. I have no need of being lectured by anyone. You're like what? 15? All this distresses you, doesn't it? According to his profile, he just turned 48 on January 10. (Happy belated birthday, bdp.) In my opinion, he doesn't appear to be distressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 According to his profile, he just turned 48 on January 10. (Happy belated birthday, bdp.) In my opinion, he doesn't appear to be distressed. I don't know, it could just be me, but someone saying, "blah blah blah. I have no need of being lectured by anyone," comes off sounding like a juvenile. I just assumed the biological age matched. BTW, BDP, I thought you weren't going to participate in the Colosseum discussions since you can't actually seem to engage in serious dialog in here. Why are you still posting junk like this you said to me, as well as others, in here? Do you need to be put on mod-preview? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagickMonkey Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I've been tempted to express my disagreement with Antlerman, but I think we did enough of that in another thread. We're not going to ever agree on the validity of using subjective experiences to find truth, but he seems to be good-to-go. So why don't you believe that monkey? At the risk of getting into another long drawn out debate, I simply do not trust that feelings or experiences that are completely in our heads can lead to any truths to any reasonable degree of reliability. That doesn't mean they are useless, just not relevant to discovering truth. While I strongly doubt it, perhaps if I had the same experiences as Antlerman, I would believe differently. I am very much a rationalist, but I don't think the sky is going to fall just because others aren't. What is it about your own perceptions that you don't trust, and does that mean that every truth is extrinsic in order to be believable to you? It's all I trust with any degree of certainty. I can theorize some cool stuff in my head, but the validity of those theories are untested. And I kinda almost get what Anterman is saying about the subjective. I just do not see any way one can learn any ultimate truths through internal subjective experiences. Like I said, I discussed this as much as I care to in a different thread. If I think of which one it is, I'll post a link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 It's all I trust with any degree of certainty. I can theorize some cool stuff in my head, but the validity of those theories are untested. And I kinda almost get what Anterman is saying about the subjective. See? Subjective doesn't mean ignoring the mind. I just do not see any way one can learn any ultimate truths through internal subjective experiences. Higher perspectives. Different ways of looking at the same thing which open up greater, higher, or deeper truths behind it. Reality is not one thing. The subjective is a participant in a greater unfolding of its depth, just as it has done so since the beginning of our awakening minds all the way up to, and beyond, our present understanding. Like I said, I discussed this as much as I care to in a different thread. If I think of which one it is, I'll post a link. Oh, there's always a new way to look at it and discuss it. I don't think we've begun to exhaust any discussion of this to the point we're going in circles. You yourself just said you're now "kind of almost" getting what I'm saying. If nothing else, it helps me to put these thoughts into better ways. I enjoy this level of discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagickMonkey Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 It's all I trust with any degree of certainty. I can theorize some cool stuff in my head, but the validity of those theories are untested. And I kinda almost get what Anterman is saying about the subjective. See? Subjective doesn't mean ignoring the mind. I just do not see any way one can learn any ultimate truths through internal subjective experiences. Higher perspectives. Different ways of looking at the same thing which open up greater, higher, or deeper truths behind it. Reality is not one thing. The subjective is a participant in a greater unfolding of its depth, just as it has done so since the beginning of our awakening minds all the way up to, and beyond, our present understanding. Like I said, I discussed this as much as I care to in a different thread. If I think of which one it is, I'll post a link. Oh, there's always a new way to look at it and discuss it. I don't think we've begun to exhaust any discussion of this to the point we're going in circles. You yourself just said you're now "kind of almost" getting what I'm saying. If nothing else, it helps me to put these thoughts into better ways. I enjoy this level of discussion. I almost got what you were saying before in the other thread, too. I can see the usefulness of having different perspectives. However, I think my brain is best equipped to see things from an engineer's perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I am willing to believe in a god. I used to believe in one as a fundy but consider myself more atheist these days, or agnostically inclined to believe if one provides proof to convince me. So far, the fact that god's believers are willing to murder everyone that does not believe in their god, convinces me the religious version is dead wrong. I can also believe the possibility the universe has always existed, though empty until the big bang that is because something had to preexist to cause the big bang. I don't believe a god is required for people to be a moral society. I can see animals that have a type of moral instinct, such as to feed and protect their young, and provide shelter. Some animals also help feed others of their species that are too injured to hunt for themselves. There are also those animals that kill and devour the helpless of the pack too. The higher the functioning animal the greater is their ability for imagination to increase their predatory skills. I don't see that a god is required for something to have an imagination. Humans can paint wonderful pictures and write books creatively. But I cannot as I do not have those skills or perform them well enough to enjoy. Animals create and critique each other too, such as birds looking for mates that know how to build nests. The better the nest the more likely they will mate. Are people any different? Those who have nice dwellings have a better chance of attracting a mate than someone living in a hovel or a hole in the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 You're like what? 15? Try 48. Being told what I need to believe is being lectured. You believe what you what - I have my disbelief and can't possibly have anything else. I know too much. Sanctimony distresses me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 You're like what? 15? Try 48. Being told what I need to believe is being lectured. You believe what you what - I have my disbelief and can't possibly have anything else. I know too much. Sanctimony distresses me. No one is not allowing you your beliefs, especially me. However, you are not allowing others theirs, and I have received one too many complaints about this from other members about your behavior in these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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