How Far Would You Go?

[Mriana]

I have also talked to a friend who was pushing her Rapture/End Times books (what are they called again?).

I think you are talking about the "Left Behind" series of 16 books by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins - scare tactics at their finest. Those books remind me of the "hell house" crap that some evangelical churches put on. Blah! This stuff is all designed to scare teens to Christ. There is no limit to the extremes these idiots will go in an effort to persuade others to become part of their cult.

 

Yeah, those are the books. I couldn't get past the first couple chapters before I asked her what did they need with their bodies in heaven and other like questions going on a rant as to how stupid and superstitious the whole thing was and that was only after reading a couple chapters. She said, "It's just a story. Don't read it if you don't like it." To her disappointment, I gave her back her books and told her I didn't want my sons reading them. Oddly enough, we're still friends and she's chilled out.

[Vigile]

I repeat the above by asking if one should not allow some period of time for this "teaching" to become effective?

 

I understand it's tough, but what do you offer as an alternative? Moreover, if they are old enough to be indoctrinated, they are old enough to have alternative explanations as well, no?

 

You have got to be kidding me ... free speech? Are you saying that it is the "free speech right of these fucktards to attempt to "speak" their bullshit into the minds of my children?

 

In a classroom setting, no, they don't have that right. Kids on the playground and parents in their homes? Yes, they very much have that right. There is a principle in the US regarding the free exchange of ideas. People are free to express themselves and people are free to think what they want. I'll ask again, what do you propose as an alternative? Will you monitor the playground at school? Will you refuse to allow your kids to visit xian friend's homes? It's up to you, but it doesn't sound very practical and it might just backfire on you if your kids think you are scared of ideas of others and smother them with overprotection. This is just my opinion. They're your kids and you have to raise them as you see fit. It's not for me to tell you how to do it. But you did ask for opinions.

 

That, and the fact that you have no children, explains a lot. I am an American, and this is my home and theirs. I shouldn't have to move to a different country to secure their rights. Vigile ... thank you for getting my hackle feathers up in a bunch. It doesn't happen often. I like it.

 

I'm an American as well. I offered this as a joke, not expecting you to take it seriously. There is some truth to what I wrote though. In the US people are literally drowning in religion. You can't escape it. You can call it drowning in molestation if you want, but that doesn't change the fact people are drowning in it. Here in Russia I am literally never exposed to religion.

 

That's not spin. That's reality. Would you consider it spin if some grimy old man decided to "contribute ideas" to your child about how all children should jerk old men off? I don't think so. What is your major malfunction?

 

The law doesn't see this your way. Neither do I. There is a big difference between a dirty old man talking to your kids about sex and someone talking to your kids about their beliefs. If you can't see that, I guess I can't change your mind, but from my perspective, everyone is entitled to their own ideas. It's not like they are locking your kids in a room and indoctrinating them. Again, what do you propose to do to keep your children from exposure?

 

Obviously you have never been brainwashed by adults when you were young.

 

Indeed I was. My parents and the church.

 

ude, you really piss me off!

 

Do you always get pissed off when people disagree with you? I've been polite and have merely given you my opinion, which you asked for when you started this thread.

[Mister Pappy]

... if they are old enough to be indoctrinated, they are old enough to have alternative explanations as well, no?

Not necessarily ... what would make you draw such a conclusion?

 

Do you always get pissed off when people disagree with you?

No, but I obviously like it when I do.

 

 

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

Firstly, my children are 3 and (nearly) 1 so they are a bit young to worry over indoctrination by others. I practice neo-pagan seasonal rituals informally and my 3 year old joins me with a small group on the Air Base sometimes. I have a few mythology books and fairy tales and fables that she likes listening to. There are many ways to go about inoculating kids against religious dogmas and I thought that providing context of mythology at an early age would be a good way to go.

 

If a friend (I answered as though they were in elementary school) or their parents taught my child that I or they were hellbound sinners, I would call the parents and tell them that their behavior was unacceptable. Depending on the severity of their behavior and the result of confronting them my child could keep spending time with their child. I know I was brought up believing that many of my friends were going to hell. It was enormously beneficial for me to have friends who were not believers. I'd hope my kids could be that kind of influence as well, as long as they were not being treated badly.

 

If it was a teacher I'd call the teacher and file a formal complaint with the school at first offense. Again, it depends how severe the infraction is. I'd go as far as I'd have to but I am a very non confrontational and easy going person by nature so I'd be a bit slower to legal action. Outright discrimination against my child personally would not go unpunished, however.

 

My mom is not religious, and certainly no longer discusses it with her kids (my youngest brother is 14) so i have no fear there. My dad is still quite religious but hesitant to talk about it because he hates confrontation more than I do. My grandparents are quite happy to shove indoctrination material in my kids faces already and I haven't been able to handle it well yet. I think its harder with grandparents because I am not so close to them that I can have frank conversations with them, but I care enough that I don't want to worry them or hurt their feelings. So far I've just gotten rid of the children's bibles, Focus on the Family DVDs, nativity sets, etc that my grandma has given them. I know it will get harder as they get older and I have to draw the line. My grandma has a way of manipulating people and had me sent to a church summer camp two years in a row when I was a teen. My mom didn't stand up to that and there's no way in hell I'd let it get that far for my own kids. So I now vow that the next time they give an inappropriate gift or try to indoctrinate them I will explain to them that we do not require their spiritual input in our childrearing and to curb their behavior accordingly. If they don't, well I'll not be too sad to stop spending time with them anyway.

[SleeplessGhost]

I answered in the most reasonable way I could think of.

 

As to the point of free speech: If I were to start accepting students for a year and a day and one of my students happened to be under the age of eighteen I could be sued by the parents and/or charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor. This is why most covens require members to be 18 or have parents already in the coven. This is because children do not, in fact, have the same civil rights as adults do in the USA. In fact, I started learning about Wicca when I was about fourteen and on probation. As a part of my probation I had to attend anger management counciling and when my councilors found out that I was Wiccan they told my parents and forbade me from continuing the practice on the grounds that they had a Wiccan that commited suicide.

 

That being said, NO ONE has the right to teach my daughter about any religion other than my own.

[lunaticheathen]

I don't have kids, but I went with gut reaction.

Christian parents telling MY CHILD what to believe? Bat and strong words.

Teacher: Sue the pants of the bitch, and let the school know, through the court, it will NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.

My own parents: Well, they aren't as crazy as they used to be, and they well know my feelings on Christianity. If they tried to scare my kids into Christianity, knowing full well how I feel about it , they would never see me or my child(ren) again. They know better.

 

I'm glad the questions involved adults, who should now better - other kids, well, that's just talking to my own (hypothetical) kids about it.

[ShackledNoMore]

I don't think it is an issue of "hoping" my child thinks for himself. I foster that quality in my children all the time.

 

My children will be preached at. They will be told they need jesus or they are going to hell. That is the messed up world we live in. As a parent, I think it is my job to protect them from the worst of it, above and beyond what they are equipped to deal with, and teach them to be well adjusted, thinking people who make good decisions for themselves in the face of all the messed up stuff they will have flung at them in the world. This is something that is especially true in the arena of religious indoctrination, but it is true in other areas as well. It means gradually letting go as they are exposed to evangelization ploys, peer pressure, or whatever, having fostered thinking skills and good judgement.

 

There are some areas we can control more than others.

 

The things outside the home, we have the least control over. I am cautious of sleepovers to begin with. I would have to be comfortable with the parents and a sleepover at an arbitrary fundy's house that I suspected would use it as an opportunity to preach to my children would be unlikely to happen. However, assuming it did, I would focus on talking with my children rather than airing my position on the matter with the other parents. I would however, be on my guard thereafter, and depending on the age and capacity of my children, I would monitor the level of preaching they get and prevent giving the other parents the opportunity to let things get out of hand with their evangelizing.

 

The school is not legally, ethically, or morally entitled to indoctrinate my children with their religious beliefs or the beliefs of my child's teacher. The teacher and the school does have a certain degree of built in authority. I would take any significant evangelization efforts by the school or by a teacher up with the school, in a reasonable fashion, and if need be, escalate it until my children are no longer in a situation where they are being proselytized to by the school.

 

The third example was not a hypothetical. Given the opportunity, my mother would have tenaciously warped my children with the worst fundy brainwashing just like she had me. She was never alone with my daughter. Had there remained a relationship and/or I had not been "delivered to satan" for my apostasy before my son was born, she never would have been alone with him, either. In a less extreme situation, I would have responded with whatever level of protection was needed or appropriate, from doing nothing if I had parents who did not make serious efforts to convert my children, to exactly what I did, or whatever was called for in between.

[Mister Pappy]

I don't think it is an issue of "hoping" my child thinks for himself. I foster that quality in my children all the time.

After we, as parents, have done all we can do to foster the "thinking for oneself" qualities in our children, it still all comes down to "hoping" they will use the skills we have given them, when the time comes. There is never a guarantee that what they learn from us will be applied.

 

I really enjoyed your thoughtful answers to the questions.

 

Pappy

[ShackledNoMore]

Yes indeed, Pappy, I'm with you: it's the worries of being a parent and having kids you love, and you want them to have a good life.

 

This encompasses the "other areas" I alluded to as well. Will, despite our best efforts,our children abuse substances, become pregnant early on, be killed or maimed in an auto accident by combining inexperience, poor judgement, risk taking, and an illusion of invincibility? Will our children pair up in abusive relationships? Will our children become tormented and miserable, maybe want to take their own life? Will our children become miscreants? And of course in line with the opening topic: will our children fall for a caustic religious meme?

 

I think it must be a bigger worry until our kids are in their early 20s or so and have grown into well adjusted young adults--or not.

 

A couple of my thoughts on that, using the religious beliefs they adopt as an example, although it also generalizes into other areas such as the ones mentioned above: the odds are lower that they will be poisoned if they are raised well by parents who love them--I know, it is small consolation if they become poisoned despite this. Yet nothing is black and white. In religion, for example, there is a wide range of beliefs they can adopt. They can be unbelievers, religious liberals, moderates, or conservatives, batshit fundies. As much as we would like for them to take what we find to be healthy views, it is ultimately their decision. IF they become religious having been raised by a parent like you or me, it is unlikely (though nothing is impossible) that they will be the worst kind of poisoned fundy. If they find comfort in a more mild form of delusion it will be decidedly less toxic. Though I personally may not think their religious faith and its ramifications is the best thing for them, it is not my decision to make for them any more than it is for me to make for any other adult. Life will go on, and we will love them no differently. I think we can also predict what their challenges may be down the road. In some areas I have already relaxed a bit, while in others there is still more of the parents' worry in play. All I can do is what I am doing: being a good parent to the best of my ability.

[LivingLife]

If I may offer an opinion, I think Virgile is on the money here. I cannot see how you can protect your daughters infinitum w/o becoming a complete asshole to them.

 

It is highly likely that they are exposed to peers and friends than your influences, this is never going to change unless you home school them.

 

I think you perhaps need to take a step back and see your "anger" with the xians system should not be played out by you vicariously through your daughters. Trying to "protect" them from the evils of xianity would be counterproductive in the long term as kids tend to do the opposite of what we would like them to do. From what I read on these forums, it seems nigh impossible to cocoon your daughters from the nut jobs. What is important is that they do see you as a goto person that should clarify the issues. With my kids, they would discover stuff and then make a final assessment/decision based on my input. Saying it is just a load of crap doesn't give one any credibility and you have to be a bit more imaginative than that.

 

I would suggest regulars "show and tell" discussion where they can relate to you what they heard were exposed to and then you take up the role of putting it all in context and offering alternate/rational explanations. I assume you, just like me was a woo woo once upon a time. The woo woos are only doing what they are programmed to do.

 

Having come out of the madness, you should have some good foundational knowledge of how to "age appropriate" offer alternative explanations.

 

Possibly I am fortunate that my kids witnessed firsthand the hypocrisy of xians and my subsequent deconversion. I have never pushed this on them as they need to open up the dialogue first, then I will share.

 

Getting abusive with the woo woos makes us no better than them, you just have to out-think and outsmart them, be pre-emtive when it is appropriate and reactive when appropriate. If your wisdom becomes the defacto recourse to your daughters inquiring minds, you need not worry; your fun is still coming when they become teenagers.

 

My daughter has been dating a guy 5 years older than her since she was 15, there were of course very rigid ground rules and the boyfriend is a respectable young lad. She is now going on 19 this year and no rush to marry, she wants to study. I have no illusions that she is pure and innocent but while a few of her old classmates are having babies already, she is pretty focused on what she wants to achieve in life. My son is going on 22 and both turned out pretty OK.

 

In this regard, my wife played a bigger influence than I did.

 

Granted we may not be as fundie as the US but they were exposed to a fundy church most of their formative years

 

FWIW

[Robbobrob]

Once we deem our children old enough to be out of our sight (friend's house, school, Sunday School, etc) we are putting our trust in them that they can handle the situation, whatever may come up. Beyond making sure my son understands what I think is right and important, I have to trust in him to not fall into the wrong crowd, and to not fall for bad advice from others. Not an easy thing to do as a parent. But I can't hover, only teach him what I can.

 

No one has the right to be free from being offended or not hear objectionable material. The same freedom of speech I reserve for myself I have to allow to others. It is how we as parents deal with it that shows our children how to deal with it. And a bat is not a solution I ever plan to teach my child, no matter how repulsive the message. Granted what a five year old is subjected to and what a 10 year old is subjected to makes a difference in how I would respond, but only in the amount of further exposure I would allow. But, as one who had an aunt take my 3 month to a priest to be blessed, I can tell you that I made sure my son's exposure to her became very supervised, and very limited. Thankfully the blessing did not take, and he is now a healthy 9 year old, learning about all religions in a safe environment.

 

I think if there was an overly fundie friend/parents that was trying to convert (instead of being decent human beings), I would limit or full out curtail my child's exposure to them. Fortunately, in my life, I do not run into such people. And neither does my son.

[Japedo]

I'm disappointed at no options being "I'd TALK TO MY KIDS, and show them why Christianity doesn't make sense".

 

 

 

I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but Best answer yet.

 

 

Having been raised in a fundy atmosphere myself, I'm very open about every issue, I at least try to be. weather it be drugs, dogma, bad crowds, good/bad choices everything is an open discussion in my house. I have no fear of my children being lead away by a charismatic piped piper, whether it be friends, teachers or family members. The golden rule here is if it sounds to good to be true it most likely is. There are always going to be Christians witnessing to them, the best one can do is arm them with knowledge.

 

My husband is a (nonpracticing ) Christain and many of my relatives are a garden variety of Christianity from barely practicing to full fledged fundys. I don't believe in shielding children from differnt beliefs, the sooner they are armed with information and common recruiting practices the better they are IMO, teach them to think on their own, ask questions and fact find.

[hereticzero]

I told my father years ago I was somewhere between agnostic and atheist and that we teach our child how to think for himself, sort of a crash-course in critical thinking. My son is allowed to think for himself and even though he is mildly developmental, he does real well when it comes to religious indoctrination and avoids it almost with the same zeal my wife and I do. He has asked me if he can go to Catholic mass and I've told him he is free to pray to all of his imaginary friends he desires. This is, after all for the most part a free country. He is free to express himself as he chooses. So far he chooses not to believe the religious doctrines, which is good considering my own father is a Southern Baptist preacher for more than 50 years! The pressure to convert is always present. I would sue a school district that tried to convert my son to some religious belief because I pay taxes for schooling in reading, writing, arithmatic, etc., not Sunday school indoctrination. A teacher who spends time preaching to his or her class deserves to be fired because they ignore my parental responsibilities to raise my son as I see fit, not as the school sees fit. Because I pay taxes to the school, they do not have the right to preach instead of teach our son. Whose god will they use, theirs or ours? When it comes to immediate family members wanting to evangelize my son, I just tell them to piss off unless they want to be excluded from our family activities and that usually takes care of that. My son at 18 now, has a firm grasp on truth over fiction and he has an entire library of books I've collected over the years to read any time he wants that both support and deny the existence of god. I just tell him that if he chooses to pursue religious doctrine to keep in mind that religion is one of the most murderous ways to force someone to accept doctrine that influences faith and ignorance over factual data and common sense. My son is so far, not a christian. i pay taxes for public schooling, not church tithings.

[Japedo]

 

 

Very well put. +1

 

Mister Pappy,

 

I don't quite understand why you're so upset with the advice Vigile gave, I thought it was the most logical approach.

 

I've been where you are with the anger towards Xtians, My anger at one time was so fierce, I thought I'd never be able to let it go. You need to remember that your experiences aren't your kids, and while of course you want to protect them from something that happened to you, the best way to do that is with information. History, Counter arguments, Logic, and reason. Give them tools that weren't available to you.

 

If we were all armed with what we know now, the abuse the cult did to us would have never impacted us the way it did. FACT. It would have never been able to prey on our fears or have power over those fears. As with anything, the best preventive measures, is awareness.

[Mister Pappy]

Once we deem our children old enough to be out of our sight (friend's house, school, Sunday School, etc) we are putting our trust in them that they can handle the situation, whatever may come up. Beyond making sure my son understands what I think is right and important, I have to trust in him to not fall into the wrong crowd, and to not fall for bad advice from others. Not an easy thing to do as a parent. But I can't hover, only teach him what I can.

I am sure that not everyone views the hazard of Christian indoctrination with as much caution as I do. Furthermore, I am sure that not everyone sees this indoctrination as molestation of the mind, as I do. The fact is, I do see the indoctrination of children as molestation or rape of the mind. Therefore, I see any attempt to do so, as an attempt to rape the minds of my children - thus my reaction. It is with the realization of our possible differences of view that I understand our differences of reaction. I, for one, cannot leave so much to "chance".

 

No one has the right to be free from being offended or not hear objectionable material.

I disagree with this opinion, and I think you do to - I at least hope you do where children are concerned. Pornography is protected under the freedom of expression laws, but do our children not have a right to be protected from hearing or viewing such objectionable material? Yes they do. It is not legal to engage a minor online in a chat with pornography or even pornographic conversation, even though pornography is protected. So your assertion that "NO ONE" has a right to be protected from hearing or viewing objectionable material is faulty.

 

The same freedom of speech I reserve for myself I have to allow to others.

And I do just that. I do not think it appropriate that I attempt to invade the mind of children, not in my custody, with my own views on religion, and I expect the same.

 

I have no fear of my children being lead away by a charismatic piped piper, whether it be friends, teachers or family members.

Then I hope, for you children's sake, a pied piper doesn't lead your children "away", or a drug dealer doesn't convince them to try drugs, or a pedophile doesn't seduce them, and etc.... Having no fear, in some cases is to be commended. I do not see, having no fear, when it comes to our children, as one of those noble cases.

 

I don't quite understand why you're so upset with the advice Vigile gave, I thought it was the most logical approach.

My primary concern with Vigile's statement was that he said he did not believe that children had the right to grow up with "unmolested" minds.

 

You need to remember that your experiences aren't your kids, and while of course you want to protect them from something that happened to you, the best way to do that is with information.

I give them information, but it is still my duty, as a parent, to be watchful and observant of their surroundings - to protect them as best I can UNTIL they have arrived at an age to put into use, the information and skills I have provided them. There must be consideration given to the time it takes children to assimilate what they have been taught into practical application.

 

I have taught my daughters to ride young colts from the time they were 3-years-old, but I have still provided them with a safe environment to "PRACTICE" what they have been taught before turning them loose in the mountains to train those colts. My 12-year-old can stick to the back of a high-jumper with the best cowboys you will see at most rodeos, but two years ago, she wasn't allowed out of the round-pen with anything remotely green.

 

Doesn't that just make good common sense - albeit common sense has become increasingly uncommon these days?

[Mister Pappy]

Some of you may not have read my testimony on here. Don't worry, I don't intend to repeat it right now. It is posted in the testimonies section of this board - My Story - if you are interested. The point is, I was a child who was heavily indoctrinated from birth, as many of you were, and I can only speak from my experience. I know the mental torture that I went through while deprogramming my mind. It was a near-impossible task. I have first-hand knowledge of the depression and feelings of alienation. I know the damage that oozes through the entire emotional self, as a result of a warped mind. As a direct result of these torments, I have abused drugs, alcohol, money, and power in my youth, and more scars were left on my "soul". (I have never talked about these things here and don't intend to.)

 

This is why I view the young mind the same as I do the young body - the young sexuality. I see it all as a virginity or purity that can so easily be violated by adult influences. I see the young mind, particularly the very young mind, as an unwritten slate upon which those who come into contact with it, write upon. Those writings are not so easily erased. Consequently, I feel it is my duty, as a parent, to guard that pure white slate of unwritten mind - the mind of my children - against those who would leave a wake of their foul scribblings, because they feel they know "the truth". Your freedom of speech, or anyone else's, be damned! I would express the same emotion, should the "unwritten slate" of my young daughter's bodies be written upon by an adult who might excuse themselves by saying "She wanted it too".

 

I can not apologize for these feelings. They are far too ingrained in my psyche. They are born on the wings of too much experience. I will not leave my babies to defend themselves before they have the ability to do so. I will not tell them to beware of the grizzly and trust that I have done my job. I will watch them as they cross the creek, as they climb these hills behind our home, as they trek the mountains surrounding this place, and I will personally fight the grizzly, to both our deaths, if he should set his eye upon the sweet baby girls, who are my own. You know what? The mamma griz will do the same. I have seen her do just that. I have a friend with only half a face to prove it, so I know. So ... tell my cubs they're going to hell and see what "Pappy Bear" does!

[Japedo]

I have no fear of my children being lead away by a charismatic piped piper, whether it be friends, teachers or family members.

Then I hope, for you children's sake, a pied piper doesn't lead your children "away", or a drug dealer doesn't convince them to try drugs, or a pedophile doesn't seduce them, and etc.... Having no fear, in some cases is to be commended. I do not see, having no fear, when it comes to our children, as one of those noble cases.

 

I have 4 children all who are paying their own way thru college. As I said earlier. Whether it be drugs, dogma, good/bad decisions, bad/good crowds we talk about everything. The reality is Mister is YOUR NOT GOING TO BE THERE AT ALL TIMES. I have lots of fears, more then most probably when it comes to my kids, but one of the things I don't fear is them being duped into blind belief, This is know because I know my kids. We have many conversations about religions, mainly because of various family members and/or people one of them is dating. You said your child is 16, license time, it's the time when 'kids' strive for a degree of independence, not because they don't love you, but because they need to grow into their own person.

 

 

 

My primary concern with Vigile's statement was that he said he did not believe that children had the right to grow up with "unmolested" minds.

 

No offense Mister but you have your head in the sand about the unmolested minds bit, it's not based on reality of the real world. Raising kids in a bubble will inadvertently cause naiveté , which makes them vulnerable and more likely to being victims. What happens if gawd forbids something happens to you and you're not there? If you don't teach them and keep on make believing things don't exist for the sake of calling it molestation, someone else will teach them. Even in the case of molestation, you still warn your children and make them know what inappropriate contact is, even when their small. Letting them know that molestation exists, helps them be awarer of it and helps them to protect and defend themselves.

 

 

 

I give them information, but it is still my duty, as a parent, to be watchful and observant of their surroundings - to protect them as best I can UNTIL they have arrived at an age to put into use, the information and skills I have provided them. There must be consideration given to the time it takes children to assimilate what they have been taught into practical application.

 

Yes, exactly. whether it be a movie, or something involving one of their friends ask your kids how they would handle different situations. This gives you a gage where they need work and where they have strengths.

I have taught my daughters to ride young colts from the time they were 3-years-old, but I have still provided them with a safe environment to "PRACTICE" what they have been taught before turning them loose in the mountains to train those colts. My 12-year-old can stick to the back of a high-jumper with the best cowboys you will see at most rodeos, but two years ago, she wasn't allowed out of the round-pen with anything remotely green.

 

Doesn't that just make good common sense - albeit common sense has become increasingly uncommon these days?

 

Yes, life is much the same way IMO.

[Mister Pappy]

Whether it be drugs, dogma, good/bad decisions, bad/good crowds we talk about everything.

As far as you know ... Maybe you do, and maybe you don't talk about "everything". You assume a lot.

 

The reality is Mister is YOUR NOT GOING TO BE THERE AT ALL TIMES.

But I will be there as often as I can be until they do not need me to be there any longer.

 

one of the things I don't fear is them being duped into blind belief, This is know because I know my kids.

I have heard that one before.

 

You said your child is 16

No ... the oldest is 12.

 

No offense Mister but you have your head in the sand about the unmolested minds bit, it's not based on reality of the real world.

What is the "real world"? Is it the world you have accepted for your children? Is that the real world?

 

Raising kids in a bubble will inadvertently cause naiveté

What bubble exactly?

 

What happens if gawd forbids something happens to you and you're not there?

They will be deprived of a father to guide them. It happens, and it is not the best case scenario, by far.

 

If you don't teach them and keep on make believing things don't exist for the sake of calling it molestation, someone else will teach them.

You assume too much. I do teach them. Where would you get the idea that I don't?

[Japedo]

As far as you know ... Maybe you do, and maybe you don't talk about "everything". You assume a lot.

 

I don't assume, I'm a nosy, prying, and and over bearing mother. When they were younger, If I didn't approve of their friends,they weren't allow to hang out with them, no arguments, no if's and's or buts.. it's just the way it was, you are who you hang with has always been our motto. I'd state the reason why, and that's that. I have never hidden the fact that I watch them at all times. A small town helps, christ, I knew they misbehaved at the movies before the movie even let out, I'd be there to greet them and take care of it in front of the world when it did let out. In some ways we're very strict, in others very liberal. . I'm in their business about everything, is it good? no, probably not, but it's a fact and well hells bells they've lived with me their whole life and know how I am. I'm the first one to tell you I have major control issues. My kids were to busy to get into much trouble. Sports, Music, homework left very little time for diddling around while they were in school.

My kids are in leadership positions at their assorted colleges now. One's in charge of a dorm, others' are on various committees, clubs, music a ccaplla groups and sports teams. Doubtful they would have obtained these positions if they didn't have what it took to get them. So... do I assume? Yeah I guess so.

 

But I will be there as often as I can be until they do not need me to be there any longer.

 

Aren't we all?

 

I have heard that one before.

 

Okay? How many religious discussions (debates) have you been in with your kids, their friends, your friends as a group? I've heard them myself debate their friends about god, dogma, faith and the like. I KNOW their positions on both religion and politics. Our dinner conversations most times revolve around topics of the day on the news. Rarely does anyone agree on these matters. Healthy debate is fun.

 

No ... the oldest is 12.

 

Okay sorry my mistake. I personally don't think that's to young to get them to start thinking on their own about the topic of god, faith and the like.

 

 

What is the "real world"? Is it the world you have accepted for your children? Is that the real world?

 

 

I've never shown my kids drugs, but going to a public school most likely increases the change they'll be exposed to it.

Sex, partys, mob mentality, betrayal, injustice,rape, robbery, being a victim of something... dogma, many of these things if I could have my way I'd never WANT my kids exposed to it, the REALITY is, all of this ugliness is everywhere in the world, so they need to be able to confront these things when/ IF they arrive. If you think pretending none of it exists, what happens when life hits them in the face? Some things people can't be protected against.

 

What bubble exactly?

 

The bubble of having zero exposure to issues of others faith (or mind molestation as you call it) , if your kids are secure and confident with where they stand, having someone attempt to lure them into a false belief with pie in the sky promises of crowns and glory WONT happen to begin with, because you're kids were told up front before the issue was addressed by someone else. . This is in essence what Vigile said to you that you became offended over.

 

 

You assume too much. I do teach them. Where would you get the idea that I don't?

 

Okay, I'm sorry to assume. I thought you said you wanted to keep your kids free of mind molestation (Religion) and that it was their right to not be exposed to it under any circumstance. I assumed by that statement that the topic is off limits with them, so how does one teach something that's off limits? I guess I'm not clear where you stand here then,sorry.

[Mister Pappy]

I don't assume, I'm a nosy, prying, and and over bearing mother.

You sound like a good mother who cares for her children. If that means being overbearing at times, I think maybe that just goes with the territory.

 

Aren't we all?

No

 

I personally don't think that's to young to get them to start thinking on their own about the topic of god, faith and the like.

I have continued to repeat this throughout the entire thread, but I guess you aren't reading my posts - I teach my children how to think for themselves, but they must be allowed some time to place these skills into practical application. Such skills are not taught overnight. Until they are better equipped to defend themselves, I stand by my policy of saying, "Keep your hands off their brains." I am not going to change my position on that.

 

the REALITY is, all of this ugliness is everywhere in the world, so they need to be able to confront these things when/ IF they arrive.

and when they are old enough, they WILL confront the world with all its ugliness. Until then, they are my babies, and I will teach them, guide them, and yes ... protect them. I am their father. It is my job.

 

if your kids are secure and confident with where they stand, having someone attempt to lure them into a false belief with pie in the sky promises of crowns and glory WONT happen to begin with

Look ... my children are too young, at 9 and 12 years old, to be expected to take on the world and its "ugliness". They are still learning about who they are. Maybe they are just beginning to think about "what they believe" about religion. I will not stop protecting them at this age. I am sure the time will come soon enough when that will be appropriate. At this time, it isn't, but thank you for your concern.

 

Okay, I'm sorry to assume. I thought you said you wanted to keep your kids free of mind molestation (Religion) and that it was their right to not be exposed to it under any circumstance. I assumed by that statement that the topic is off limits with them, so how does one teach something that's off limits? I guess I'm not clear where you stand here then,sorry.

Like I said, you assume too much and you haven't read what I have written. I will keep their minds free of molestation by the religious nuts of the world. If I do nothing else for them. I owe them this until they can establish themselves in their own mind and beliefs as well as learn to defend their own ideas. I teach them basic morality and citizenship. I also spend lots of time teaching them about the various religious beliefs in our world. I do this while trying to prepare them for what they will one day encounter. My entire point lies in the fact that they have not yet reached an age where it is appropriate for adults, other than my wife and I, to be deliberately impacting their thinking on these things.

[Japedo]

 

It's your thread, You asked, I'm telling you.

 

In your polls, Some of the vote choices involve violence and/or open angry over the top hostility (IMO) toward friends /family, which is most likely tongue in cheek.

 

Simply, I guess I'm saying I choose none of the above and laid out another option, take it however you'd like.

 

As far as the school thing, There was a time back in my hard core Republican days (lol) that I made my kids march with instruments down, as a visible protest to playing a tribute to the United Nations during a Veteran day Parade. At the time I felt it was an American Holiday, and at the time I felt the public school was attempting to indoctrinate my children into celebrating the UN as their own country. (A little Glen Beckish I know lol) but at that time it was what I absolutely believed to be true. A tribute to the United Nations was appalling to me, I was truly outraged and wrote a letter to the Mayor about it as well, I was beyond livid that they were being so recognized and woven into a tribute to our Veterans. Anyway, Long story short,. The kids stood down, of course it helped that I threatened to pull them out of line If I saw them even pretending to play. (Yes... a complete Asshole I was, I told you control issues ) they later said I humiliated them as I walked the entire route making sure they skipped that song every time it came up.. At the time I felt very strongly about my stance, now....... I see myself as being a completely irrational asshole, for what? Over a marching band tune? For a City Parade? Really? I didn't see then that it wasn't about paying tribute to the United Nations to my kids, it was being part of the Parade and outstanding Marching Band that the kids loved, the politics of it was my issue not there's and to be honest, looking back it's probably something I would like to have a re-do over.

 

This brings me up to when we moved to a small town. Many of the music choices are religious (Public school) that pissed me off personally more then the UN thing did, but anyway, I digress. The lesson I took from the Marching band thing is the same thing, just a different subject matter. The Religious stuff is again my issue. While I look at it as them forcing my kids to sing hosannas, my kids saw it as being part of the band or choir, the music wasn't meant to offend but to inspire and move. I had to get past the all about Me phase (which is what it was in retrospect) and allow the kids to be part of something they loved without my personal baggage and bullshit.

 

Due to the fact that I had humiliated my children in that parade, they asked that I just quite frankly but out about the Religious songs and for me to please not make it difficult for them in this new school, The songs had no value to them other then being great pieces of music. I did, and they thrived in music and drama, they all still continue with music to this day

 

So I guess, what I'm saying is I know where you're coming from to some degrees, and honestly I had to just let some things go and pick my battles.Kids are going to be exposed to religion, there's not a damn thing any of us can do about it. Just as they will be exposed to cuss words, bad music, and horrific fashion, it's embedded deeply in American culture. The only part we can control is how we react to it.

 

Good luck with your girls, it goes by way to fast.

[ShackledNoMore]

I must confess, I'm a bit at a loss about what to make of some of what I have read on this thread.

 

At some times, it seems like many of the people on this thread are suggesting throwing their children to the wolves in the religious indoctrination department, and at other times, it seems there is not really so much distance between parents on opposite ends of the arguments after all.

 

Your kids start off as helpless infants who must be completely nurtured, cared for, and protected, or they die. 20-odd years later they are adults. During the intervening time, they make the transformation gradually, incrementally.

 

I would not allow my child to watch "A Clockwork Orange" at somebody's house because I know that the world is full of intense or mature movies s/he'll see. Fast forward enough years and I wouldn't give it a second thought. Having told my child not to get in a car with an adult or not to let someone touch him/her in private places, I would not send him/her off to kindergarten by himself, trusting he would have adequate savvy, and drop off the scene reasoning that s/he needs to learn to deal with the inappropriate behavior of others because the world is full of it.

 

I don't see protecting my kids from unfettered religious indoctrination, and gradually relinquishing control as they get older, as any different. Consider the hypothetical in the poll, but lets say the school friend's parents invited your kid to their pentecostal, baptist, evangelical, or otherwise fundy church (oh, yes it probably is, that's probably why they are targeting your child in their evangelization efforts). You do know what happens when such churches get their clutches on young children's minds, right? As I say, I'm not sure what to make of things in this thread: sometimes I think I hear, "they're old enough to be with others away from home, you no longer have control, let your young elementary school age children think for themselves," and sometimes I don't.

 

Here's an apropos example from my house right now: My daughter is 10 years old. She wants a book of bible stories to read. She recognizes that she doesn't know that much about many of the bible stories and she is interested in things like that. She's already read and thoroughly enjoyed a number of books on mythology. My concern has that mythology books take the approach, "here is a book of stories--these stories are myths" whereas children's bible stories take the approach, "here is a book of stories outlining a factual foundation of man's history with God." We are buying our daughter her book of bible stories next time we are in Barnes and Nobel, within the next week or two. At this point, I think she will enjoy this book learn more about the world from reading it. She knows full well that some people literally believe every word of these stories as the Ultimate Truth^TM. She's already a much clearer thinker in these matters than I was ever given the opportunity to be by the time I was 10 years old. Still, I would not yet be comfortable providing such a book for my 7 year old son. Nor would I let a close relative or friend take either of my kids off to their church for indoctrination sessions. At this age? Not a chance!

 

No, I don't control all my kids' exposure to religion, cuss words, or bad behavior, but there are people we have not visited with our kids expressly because they would have spent the evening in drunken revelry. What I am saying is I take an appropriate measure of control and loosen the reigns as the kids become older and savvier, and I do it in matters of religion just like anything else. I am saying the middle ground, without either over protection or under protection is the place to be here. If a Vigile or Japedo on one end of the spectrum are saying this doesn't need to be done, or Pappy on the other is saying that children simply need to be kept in the dark about the rampant religious folly all around us, then in either case I disagree. I find common ground and value from both perspectives if this is a discussion on simply fine tuning how much and how long to intervene.

[Mister Pappy]

What I am saying is I take an appropriate measure of control and loosen the reigns as the kids become older and savvier, and I do it in matters of religion just like anything else.

I agree with this 100%. I do not advocate keeping my children "in the dark" about anything, but I think it wise that they get their enlightenment on such issues as religion from me until they are older.

[Vomit Comet]

That, and the fact that you have no children, explains a lot. I am an American, and this is my home and theirs. I shouldn't have to move to a different country to secure their rights. Vigile ... thank you for getting my hackle feathers up in a bunch. It doesn't happen often. I like it.

 

There are places in America that are plenty godless. Las Vegas just so happens to be one of them.

[Vomit Comet]

My children will be preached at. They will be told they need jesus or they are going to hell.

 

Vigile is dead right that in most other places in the world you simply would not have to worry about this shit. I swear to god, tell all this to the average European and they'll react with astonishment and disbelief: "fuck, it really is that bad there!?" I can kind of exclude myself as I live in Sin City and grew up in Los Angeles... then again, the fuckers still got me when I was 15. But some of you, especially you Suth'ners, are indeed drowning in crazy religion.