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Goodbye Jesus

Answered Prayer


Mad_Gerbil

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Couldn't you say that they got an answer? The man got to go to a better place! (according to your faith)

 

Anyway. The prayer that concerned me that I didn't get answer on, was not the healing of my son or any material thing.

 

Those things and the depression they caused, did inflict my faith and diminished my faith, that is true, but when my faith was pretty much gone, and there was just a slight fraction left (only a will to believe, but no feeling of belief), my only prayer was for God to give me more faith. And I don't see why that would be the hardest test on God? "God give me faith!" is a cry for help to maintain the faith in him that he wants us to have. And according to the Bible, faith is a gift from God, it's supernatural too. And why can't God give that? "I can't believe, God give me faith!" doesn't work, unless you already have faith in God, which is in effect circular. You can only get what you already have.

 

Explain that to me MG.

 

 

Han,

 

With all due respects, the following is not an explaination, just speculation:

 

 

Why God did not give you more faith...

 

 

Cliche, standard answers (but not necessarily incorrect):

 

1. Not God's will yet.

2. Not God's time yet.

3. God is testing you.

 

Other naive answers:

 

1. Perhaps, you still do not have faith in God. But you are already doing God's work (ironically) by showing how a true xtian should behave. God has an unusual plan for you!

 

2. "I can't believe, God give me faith!" doesn't work, unless you already have faith in God, which is in effect circular." Umm... I never believed, but now I do. Linear logic? Supernatural? Self-delusional? Now you have no more faith ~ i pray, one fine day, God touches you again.

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Now, there are two things I can do, one is say screw this world, screw god, screw life, and go out with a bang. Spend, travel, enjoy this life.....

 

I understand pain, I understand someone calling out To God and it seeming as if He does not answer our prayers. I can take that and turn it into anger against this God, or I can understand that through this illness, through this pain and suffering I am getting to know God in such an incredible way.

 

Take it for what it is, prayer unanswered , perhaps, but it is a lesson for me, for my family, and it may seem tragic, but its good.

 

And yes, I have medical proof if ya want it, I also will tell you that I have momnents where I am angry with God, and I scream at Him, probably like Job did, or some of the Minor Prophets, I vent I yell, I scream, and late at night when my wife is asleep, I thank Him for giving me that one extra day with her, my kids, and Him.

 

 

Chin up Christian soldier. I pray your suffering is short, and that you will be miraculously healed. Bountiful blessings to you and your family. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

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Cliche, standard answers (but not necessarily incorrect):

 

1. Not God's will yet.

2. Not God's time yet.

3. God is testing you.

 

In other words, if god "answers", great. If he doesn't, even when a (couple of little things he could easily have done something about, if, as you say, his powers are infinite) drive you to the point of ending it all, "Tough luck christian soldier, take what god gives etc" eh?

 

Or as we say where I live, "That's life, if you don't like it, shoot yourself!" Been there, almost done that. Trust in god? About as far as I can spit.

Casey

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I'm sorry, but BULLSHIT.  Tragedy and good don't go together.  If god needs to kill you in order to impart a lesson, he's a crap god, and it's a crap lesson.

 

Cerise:

 

The most 'tragic' times in my life are my greatest badge of honor and the deepest source of joy. While going through my hard times I really, really hated it but in the end the greatest accomplishments were during that time.

 

I wouldn't trade the adversity I've had for anything.

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As for the 'praying for more faith' prayer, that one throws me. I dunno why when some people get to the end of their rope they chose to continue to believe and others do not.

I'd reword the problem as follows: Whereas some people in some point during their troubles caused by buying into something realize they're been.. tricked, other people don't want to admit that or want to trust anyway because they have been brought up as lambs.

I cannot explain this very well either. I guess it's an attribute of their character, perhaps patience. Some have more patience than others. When it's time to compare results of the choices it'll be seen whose attribute was better suited to reality.

 

You also provided one more possible attribute:

The most 'tragic' times in my life are my greatest badge of honor and the deepest source of joy. While going through my hard times I really, really hated it but in the end the greatest accomplishments were during that time.

 

I wouldn't trade the adversity I've had for anything.

I find this close to patience but also as a larger scale ability to ignore (at will) the immediate natural indicators of what is bad and what is good for you, emotions. As i see it, you seem to be very conscious of the fact that there's (some*) relief at the end of suffering, thus being able to tolerate it. Still, i have a question out of curiousity: do you sometimes somehow seek that suffering expecting the reward?

 

*this is how I see it. I personally have rarely found any suffering worth it. And never the kind of suffering that goes on for long time.

 

I'll ask a question: Why did you pray for faith? Why did you want faith? (anyone can answer).

I remember praying for faith, too. When the faith starts to fade and continues to do so, it's easy to estimate, that sooner or later that faith, which you still have and find crucial, will be gone. Thus, it's logical to ask for it.

Also, I found it pretty wise and appropriately submissive to ask for faith instead of a sign. Asking faith pretty much meant to me to ask "please make me a better servant" whereas asking for a sign was more like asking for a favour from God, which is less submissive and thus perhaps less appropriate in a God - human relationship.

 

by the way,

I liked your OP very much. Laughed for a good while after checking the footnote and the funny face made at the result of all the zealous praying. Your sense of humor is easily top class ^^

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THWM,

 

'Glad to see you post. Please post more.

Whaat? :D

Should I take this as a compliment on a good post? Or perhaps as gladness at my activity as opposed to me complaining about not being active in the "ExC life" section?

 

Either way I'm happy, thx.

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TH, it's a compliment.

 

A humble ID you have here, your post just now is substantial and confident. :)

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In 35 years of attending church that is the FIRST time I've ever heard a pastor relate a story about serious prayer not producing the desired results. What I like about the story is that instead of the pie in the sky typical of preaching it actually matched several Biblical examples.  (See Job, Paul's Thorn in the Flesh, David's prayer for his son, etc.)

That is strange. Religion and faith in an well-doing Upper being helps people in general to cope with events that seem randomly or unjust.

 

This is in general not by solving the problem directly, but by giving hope to the victim, or by the help of people, or by giving acquiescence, or by giving happiness by easifying reflecting upon earlier days, the remaining gifts of the current day, realizing the proximity of a lovely Upper being, or expecting encountering beloved ones some day in the afterlife.

 

On the evangelical channel (EO) overhere (Holland), I saw a documentary about a couple that had been praying for their yet unborn, deformed child. It was a very impressive account. They did refuse to talk with the doctor about the possibility that it would go wrong. For they and the ones that prayed for them felt that God would heal the child and that doubts would be like hitting the face of God. They even speculated about the testimony it would give to the non-xians if the child would be born healthy.

Then it was the day. I saw the father sitting overthere with his dying child in his arms. Devastating sight. They managed to keep their faith, but how lugubrious it was. The fervent worshippers that were with the parents even kept praying when the child was dead. Now for resurrection. I hope they didn't prevent the burial of the baby. That are the moments that I hate religion & faith with whole my heart.

 

Video [Dutch] [RealPlayer]

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Cerise:

 

The most 'tragic' times in my life are my greatest badge of honor and the deepest source of joy.  While going through my hard times I really, really hated it but in the end the greatest accomplishments were during that time.

 

I wouldn't trade the adversity I've had for anything.

 

And this somehow gives you the right to tell everybody else that there must be something beneficial about their pain and they just aren't looking at it the right way? Does it?

 

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were the perfect model of life that everyone must mould themselves to. For those of us who feel no joy or honour at "coming through the fire" are you now going to insinuate that we are wrong somehow, freaks, unworthy, or just uninspired? Perhaps we should tear ourselves open once again and see if great works result from that?

 

Are you going to go around giving "adversity" to others, as it's been SO beneficial to you? Maybe you should rape a few kids, beat a few women, slay a few boys, rob a few banks....just so everyone else gets to experience the wonderful effects of adversity on personal honour and personal joy. No? Why not. Adversity = good, right, but you aren't willing to cause it for others?

 

If you truly believe that suffering is good for everybody, and you worry about the state of other souls instead of your own in an unselfish way, than why aren't you out raping and terrorizing people so they can experience the "great accomplishments" that arise from suffering? Either you are a coward, you are selfish, or you don't really believe this and it's just a convenient excuse for pain.

 

You wouldn't trade your adversity for anything? Well I would. Therein, the difference between you and me.

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you know...im sorry you have a disease...and i understand you leaning on god to help get you through your pain...but you get no sympathy from me...life is pain...im sorry...we all suffer in our own way...but just because we go through a time where we are calling out to god for faith to belive, DO NOT think that all people leave because they are mad at god...its like being mad at santa when you find out it was your dad putting all those presents under the tree...i know that there are quite a few that leave because they are either mad at the church or at god, but the majority of us here (at least as far as i can tell) left because we searched for the truth that was supposed to be in the bible...and like ive said before, found it lacking...and this is where the crux of it all lies (and i dont quite think youve gotten the point yet) ...when youve lost all logical reason to believe, when youve searched the scriptures and found them conflicting, errant, and historically incorrect...when the word of god is no longer just that in your mind...what do we have left other than to ask god for faith...faith we dont have, faith we need to continue to believe in someone we still hold dear to our hearts but who has let us down

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Chin up Christian soldier. I pray your suffering is short, and that you will be miraculously healed. Bountiful blessings to you and your family. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.

6 "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

7 "And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Pug, JESUS says you are a hypocrite. Your prayer was done for one reason and one alone -- to get spiritual brownie points from members of this forum. If you TRULY wanted your prayer to be effective, you should have kept it SECRET.

 

Stop praying to MAN (on this forum, in your cute little prayer circles, at the altar before the congregation, in restaraunts, etc.), because you're only trying to show off your super-spirituality.

 

Hypocrit!

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Still, i have a question out of curiousity: do you sometimes somehow seek that suffering expecting the reward?

 

No.

I find it is just a much a struggle to live on faith in the good times as in the bad -- if you take a moment to really look at the situation. The good times leave one with the illusion that G_d isn't required or that one's own efforts are sufficient.

 

One doesn't have to look for trouble -- it is readily available. :grin:

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And this somehow gives you the right to tell everybody else that there must be something beneficial about their pain and they just aren't looking at it the right way?  Does it?

 

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were the perfect model of life that everyone must mould themselves to.  For those of us who feel no joy or honour at "coming through the fire" are you now going to insinuate that we are wrong somehow, freaks, unworthy, or just uninspired?  Perhaps we should tear ourselves open once again and see if great works result from that? 

 

Cerise:

I am sharing how it worked out in my life just like you share how it worked out in your life (or you took a different path). I'm not telling anyone how to live here.

 

From by perspective, if a person is still living with life crushing bitterness he or she has yet to 'come through' the fire -- but instead are still living within it and allowing it to rule his or her life.

 

Bitterness over my abuse lasted about 10 years -- it is a horrible way to live.

I'm tired of hating.

 

-MG

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Han,

 

With all due respects, the following is not an explaination, just speculation:

Why God did not give you more faith...

Cliche, standard answers (but not necessarily incorrect):

 

1. Not God's will yet.

2. Not God's time yet.

3. God is testing you.

 

Other naive answers:

 

1. Perhaps, you still do not have faith in God. But you are already doing God's work (ironically) by showing how a true xtian should behave. God has an unusual plan for you!

 

2. "I can't believe, God give me faith!" doesn't work, unless you already have faith in God, which is in effect circular." Umm... I never believed, but now I do. Linear logic? Supernatural? Self-delusional? Now you have no more faith ~ i pray, one fine day, God touches you again.

I'm not going to argue that it couldn't be a possibility too, but it also means that I am, and believe -or not believe - the things that I should right now - according to God. Meaning that I'm at the right place and are in "God's will" right now.

 

Which means, anyone that argues otherwise, ie. judge me, are doing the Devils work and not God's work. And it's funny that it's the Christians that I see that judge me for being non-believer, while as you say, maybe that is exactly God's will. I've said this before, it means the judging Christians are the ones that will be judged and found guilty by God, instead of me. In the end, it only proves that I have the right reasons not to believe.

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Cerise:

I am sharing how it worked out in my life just like you share how it worked out in your life (or you took a different path).  I'm not telling anyone how to live here.

 

From by perspective, if a person is still living with life crushing bitterness he or she has yet to 'come through' the fire -- but instead are still living within it and allowing it to rule his or her life.

 

Bitterness over my abuse lasted about 10 years -- it is a horrible way to live.

I'm tired of hating.

 

-MG

 

And this is what frustrates me about you christians. Can you concieve for one single solitary moment a world where "life crushing bitterness" is not associated with thinking of pain as a bad thing? Saying "suffering sucks and is uneccessary" is NOT equal to "I'm am a seething mass of hatred, and it's ruling my life" but somehow, in a christian mind (cough) these two sentences are mixed.

 

:vent:

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Cerise:

 

The most 'tragic' times in my life are my greatest badge of honor and the deepest source of joy.  While going through my hard times I really, really hated it but in the end the greatest accomplishments were during that time.

 

I wouldn't trade the adversity I've had for anything.

Then aim to go to hell, the ultimate adversity.

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Here's one thing I don't get with the dialogue between MG and Cerise.

 

We have one (or more) Christians here, on this site, arguing that God gives pain and problems (even deadly sickness), to make us better. While MG argues that the pain he had was wrong and wanted to get rid of it. Which way is it? Pain or no pain? Can you claim that Cerise didn't become a better person from her experience? And if she did become a better person, it included her de-conversion, so if God wanted her to feel pain, and become better and de-convert, who are there to judge her apostacy?

 

And the same goes for my life and experience, if it was God's will for me to lose my faith, then who are there to judge me? I followed God's will then, didn't I?

 

On a other note, Jesus claimed that the Father would take care of us, and give us what we needed. We shouldn't worry about the tomorrow. If we asked for bread, God would not give us a rock. This is what I believed for 30 years. And I came to the conclusion that it wasn't true. If God does whatever he wants and doesn't support his own words, then so be it! Maybe God never answers prayers, and the faith I had was wrong; a false religion. Then what are the reasons to believe at all? Would the reason to believe that God exists, just because we never know if he will answer, and we never know why he won't? How weird is that!

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1. Perhaps, you still do not have faith in God. But you are already doing God's work (ironically) by showing how a true xtian should behave. God has an unusual plan for you!

The funny thing is that I have had several "prophets" giving a "word from God" that I would become a missionary and prophet for our time. So maybe that's what I am right now. I'm doing the missionary work of showing the "true God" for everyone, but claiming that God really doesn't exist, and Jesus never existed either, but you should live like a Messiah and a Christ towards other people. That's what it's all about. You should become Jesus, and love your neighbor as yourself. That's the key.

 

2. "I can't believe, God give me faith!" doesn't work, unless you already have faith in God, which is in effect circular." Umm... I never believed, but now I do. Linear logic? Supernatural? Self-delusional? Now you have no more faith ~ i pray, one fine day, God touches you again.

It is a strange thing isn't it? We can't pray unless we have faith, but we can't have faith unless God gives it to us, so if we don't have faith, how can we pray to God?

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I'll ask a question: Why did you pray for faith?  Why did you want faith?  (anyone can answer).

 

You've got nothing on twenty years of life-threatening abuse. You're in zero position to judge me.

 

And I wasn't praying for faith. I believed that God existed.

 

I just had no evidence whatsoever, given my life, my prayer experience and how other people who were supposed to love me (like my parents and that indifferent fucker of a priest) treated me...that God gave the slightest SHIT about me. Prayer offered neither comfort nor hope, let alone concrete answers to real problems. But they were supposed to--that's what bible class, the bible and the church said: Prayer Changes Things. I thought the fault lay with me--that I was somehow rejected by God just for who I was no matter how hard I tried to please Him. So I begged for the knowledge that it was not true. Just one tiny glimmer of hope in a truly fucked life. Well, either he's an asshole, completely impotent or nonexistent; I never even got that glimmer, after bending over backwards to earn it.

 

Disbelief came far later, after I realized that not only is biblegod a heartless bastard who is unworthy of worship--he's a myth, an overglorified thought-form manufactured for social control of large groups.

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I don't get into the whole pain comparison thing.

Fact is, people hurt badly for a long time -- I don't know how that could be measured really.

 

Why, of COURSE you don't get into the whole pain-comparison thing; if you didn't gloss over it, you'd have no argument.

 

Look, idiot. Viciously abused, nearly killed. Prayed to God for hope and comfort after working my ass off to please Him. Got two things: Jack and Shit. Got tired of being hurt and disappointed by the echoing silence, and became disgusted and confused by all the bigotry, violence and cruelty ascribed to God by the "good" book.

 

HOW THE FUCK DOES THIS COMPARE to some bullshit thing you went through for a few months in college?

 

Answer: it doesn't.

 

You can breeze along pretending there's a god that loves you because you haven't had enough shit fall into your life that you completely run out of rationalizations. And you're such an asshole about it to people who HAVE suffered, that I'm starting to hope you GET the bitch-slap in question. That will take your ego down a peg or twelve.

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And yes, I have medical proof if ya want it, I also will tell you that I have momnents where I am angry with God, and I scream at Him, probably like Job did, or some of the Minor Prophets, I vent I yell, I scream, and late at night when my wife is asleep, I thank Him for giving me that one extra day with her, my kids, and Him.

sorry if therer are typos, i am a tad weepy right now

but do not put us all in the same catagory, i do not do that to any of you!

 

Well, I'm sorry you're so horribly sick. I could take the opportunity to use your story as further proof of my point...but that's cold, and I won't.

 

But frankly? I wasn't asking for anything so fancy as being healed from my disabilities or protected from my twenty years of fucking horror.

 

I just wanted to feel love. Comfort. Hope. Acknowledgment--from somewhere in my life. That was it. And when I didn't get even that pittance...it broke me. Bad enough when your parents are psycho and one of them hates your very existence. But God was ignoring me too.

 

If your god is all knowing and even exists, he knows exactly what he put me through, and he knows it would have taken almost no effort to keep me "in the fold". He could not be fucking BOTHERED.

 

So now I can't. Even if I believed he existed...why would I offer my heart up to get broken again?

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You can breeze along pretending there's a god that loves you because you haven't had enough shit fall into your life that you completely run out of rationalizations. And you're such an asshole about it to people who HAVE suffered, that I'm starting to hope you GET the bitch-slap in question. That will take your ego down a peg or twelve.

 

I'll take a moment to remind you of two things:

 

a. I'm not judging anyone here because that isn't my role in life and I don't know enough about anyone here to do that even if it were my role.

 

b. Conversely, you don't know anything about me or the pain I've been through so you aren't in a position to make a statement about me and my faith -- which is why I disregard your comments on the issue. It is good to vent, but your venting communicates pain, but has nothing to do with the facts in regard to my life.

 

For the record, I ran out of 'rationalizations' a long time ago. You don't have to get 'bitch-slapped' to be at the end of your rope -- so I reject your implicit claim that you have the corner on personal suffering and confusion and are in a position to judge whether or not others have suffered.

 

Rich successful people commit suicide as well -- why is that?

 

Because you don't have to be a victim of spousal abuse to know pain, agnst, and fear. Such is common to all men/women.

 

I wish you peace and health.

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Cerise:

 

The most 'tragic' times in my life are my greatest badge of honor and the deepest source of joy.  While going through my hard times I really, really hated it but in the end the greatest accomplishments were during that time.

 

I wouldn't trade the adversity I've had for anything.

 

OK, so you're a damned masochist. Thanks for outing yourself.

 

Or perhaps you're just paying lip service, as you apparently haven't had much taste of real suffering?

 

If you like it so much, how'd you like my devout Christian childhood and its resultant scars? I'd really love to be rid of it.

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Han,

 

With all due respects, the following is not an explaination, just speculation:

Why God did not give you more faith...

Cliche, standard answers (but not necessarily incorrect):

 

1. Not God's will yet.

2. Not God's time yet.

3. God is testing you.

 

Other naive answers:

 

1. Perhaps, you still do not have faith in God. But you are already doing God's work (ironically) by showing how a true xtian should behave. God has an unusual plan for you!

 

2. "I can't believe, God give me faith!" doesn't work, unless you already have faith in God, which is in effect circular." Umm... I never believed, but now I do. Linear logic? Supernatural? Self-delusional? Now you have no more faith ~ i pray, one fine day, God touches you again.

 

Pug, frankly this is why christians disgust me now. You all have this two-faced thing going that is just wrong. One face intones on and on about how humble and grateful we should all be for Jesus's selfless love and God's forgiveness of sin (belly-crawling and grovelling mode).

The OTHER face is an excessively pious egoist that actually had the GALL to presume, assume, and opine the will of god whenever clarity and explanation are not directly covered in the book.

Or if the book is contradicted.

The book says prayers shall be answered. We all know prayers are NOT answered. This face of christianity rears it's condescending head, and has the bare ass cheek to essentially dictate the will of god.

 

Just the idea that you or any other christian has the nerve to believe yourselves even minutely qualified to explain god's will is such a staggering display of ego, anyone who hears you has every right to feel nauseated.

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