Answered Prayer

[Mad_Gerbil]

OK, so you're a damned masochist. Thanks for outing yourself.

 

Pfft.

I hang out at this board.

I think it is pretty clear I'm a masochist.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I'll take a moment to remind you of two things:

 

a. I'm not judging anyone here because that isn't my role in life and I don't know enough about anyone here to do that even if it were my role.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You ARE standing in judgment.

 

You believe there's no justification for leaving Christianity.

 

I have told you over and over again that your faith and your god failed me consistently, and without exception, when I believed and loved and needed him most.

 

You still claim that people like me are making excuses.

 

That is as judgmental as Pat Robertson calling all Wiccans "demonically deluded servants of Satan" on national television.

 

Truth?

 

Christianity ABETTED MY ABUSE. My younger sister, who is agnostic and always has been, did not have any God she had to please; she had no divine law telling her she had to respect and obey her abuser and commit to nonviolence until she fucking bled. As a result, she was able to stand up to my crazybitch mother, and suffered maybe a quarter of what I did.

 

IF I HAD NOT BEEN CHRISTIAN, IF I HAD NOT BEEN WORKING SO HARD TO PLEASE YOUR STUPID NONEXISTENT GOD, I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BOUND BY IDIOTIC LAWS THAT FORCED ME TO OBEY MY ABUSER INSTEAD OF FIGHTING BACK!

 

Get it?

 

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Pfft.

I hang out at this board.

I think it is pretty clear I'm a masochist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*snort* Well, you've got me there....

[white_raven23]

Cerise:

 

The most 'tragic' times in my life are my greatest badge of honor and the deepest source of joy.  While going through my hard times I really, really hated it but in the end the greatest accomplishments were during that time.

 

I wouldn't trade the adversity I've had for anything.

 

 

Mad_Gerbil, have you read Han's eximony?

 

Perhaps you should, before tooting your own horn and flashing around that "badge of honor".

 

I mean, congratulations for persevering and all, but you've self-justified your suffering. It was alright for you to suffer however you did...because you learned something, or it meant something in the long run.

 

You looked at events after your suffering and decided it was all worth it. I guess that's fine. Keeps you going and all.

 

But let's use Han as an example (hope you don't mind Han, feel free to kick my ass if you do).

 

Han has had some serious tragedy in his life. One of the lessons he came away with..... over time led to his de-conversion.

 

Do you feel qualified to tell Han he "learned the lesson" wrong? How about asking Han about any "deep joys" he's experienced as a result of the tragedies he's dealt with?

 

I personally have never had to experience anything like Han's, and I hope my luck holds out. Nor do I feel particularly qualified to rate one person's suffering to another's.

 

But I have to feel a bit wary when you talk about: "in the end the greatest accomplishments were during that time."

 

I wonder what BeccaStillSeeking thinks of your "crowing". She's been through a hell of a lot too....but I don't see her waving her "accomplishments" over her head and shouting about it.

 

You are saying in effect regarding your experience: "Whew....that was a rough spot, but it was all worthwhile!"

 

Now, as I said, I've not gone through anything that tore me down to a point that I couldn't build myself up.......but I lost a best friend once. And yes, I recovered. But lemme tell ya, I didn't "accomplish" anything. I didn't feel I earned "experience points" from the event. And even now, eleven years later, if someone asked me if I experienced "deep joy" as a result of that event........that someone better beat their feet while I'm getting over the shock of being asked something like that.

 

So when I hear someone talking about their own personal tragedies and hard life experiences like they are collecting merit badges.......I kinda want to kick them.

[Mad_Gerbil]

So when I hear someone talking about their own personal tragedies and hard life experiences like they are collecting merit badges.......I kinda want to kick them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can see why there is a misunderstanding.

 

By 'badge' I don't mean that other people should look at me and respect me because of what I've been through -- what I mean is that the experience was personally very important for me and I wouldn't trade what I learned through it for anything.

 

I don't mean it in the military sense of "Look at my chest full of medals -- you should salute me". I cherish these things because they taught me so much but they don't give me a position of power or authority or even credibility.

[Mad_Gerbil]

You ARE standing in judgment.

 

If I am standing in judgement of you then I'm wrong.

 

You believe there's no justification for leaving Christianity.

 

If the version of Christianity that you held to taught you to let your husband hit you then not only would I agree that is a justification to leave but I'd help you pack your bags.

 

You still claim that people like me are making excuses.

 

Please direct me to what I wrote wherein I accuse you of making exuses. I see you stating why you left (very rational reasons, incidently) -- I certainly don't consider abuse to be a mere 'excuse'.

[Asimov]

IF I HAD NOT BEEN CHRISTIAN, IF I HAD NOT BEEN WORKING SO HARD TO PLEASE YOUR STUPID NONEXISTENT GOD, I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BOUND BY IDIOTIC LAWS THAT FORCED ME TO OBEY MY ABUSER INSTEAD OF FIGHTING BACK!

 

Is there actually a Christian law in the NT or OT that supports hitting women?

 

I am only aware that it was told that husbands must love and respect their wives....so it would seem that your husband was kind of avoiding that whole love thing....

 

Abusers will use anything to justify abusing people...it's really sad.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

If I am standing in judgement of you then I'm wrong.

If the version of Christianity that you held to taught you to let your husband hit you then not only would I agree that is a justification to leave but I'd help you pack your bags.

Please direct me to what I wrote wherein I accuse you of making exuses.  I see you stating why you left (very rational reasons, incidently) -- I certainly don't consider abuse to be a mere 'excuse'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If that's true, and you're not trying to belittle those of us who left Christianity because of things like this, why in the hell do you keep going on and on about "comparing suffering" and all that crap?

 

Look, you're backpedaling, and that's fine, but if you want I'll start digging up bloody quotes.

 

My POINT is: every time someone brings up that they left due to horrible experiences that Christianity either didn't help with or made WORSE (as in my case), we get a bunch of Christians babbling on about how it's an excuse, it wasn't as bad as we're making out, we should have clung to our faith like bloody martyrs, etc etc etc. in "defense" of the faith that failed us. The god that failed us. You yourself have been on that bandwagon more than once, and if you're off it now, it's a new development.

[Mad_Gerbil]

If that's true, and you're not trying to belittle those of us who left Christianity because of things like this, why in the hell do you keep going on and on about "comparing suffering" and all that crap?

 

I fail to see the point of belittling you.

I could try it....

 

You are an idiot.

You are weak.

You are deceived by the devil.

 

Hmm.. did anything change -- do you feel different?

 

I don't see how making you out to be a lame, weakminded, faithless apostate does anything whatsoever to move the coversation forward.

 

Look, you're backpedaling, and that's fine, but if you want I'll start digging up bloody quotes.

 

I've not a doubt that you took something I said as belittling; however, I feel more a kinship with people who've been driven to do radical things than alienated from them. I got all kinds of criticism/guilt trips when I left fundyism. It is subtle and mean and I didn't like it either.

 

My POINT is: every time someone brings up that they left due to horrible experiences that Christianity either didn't help with or made WORSE (as in my case), we get a bunch of Christians babbling on about how it's an excuse, it wasn't as bad as we're making out, we should have clung to our faith like bloody martyrs, etc etc etc. in "defense" of the faith that failed us. The god that failed us. You yourself have been on that bandwagon more than once, and if you're off it now, it's a new development.

 

I've never been on the bandwagon that you are just making excuses.

You'll find that I'm quite comfortable with you being your wicked little apostate self.

 

Opps...

 

I mean I'm quite comfortable with you being a freethinker.

 

[BeccasStillSeeking]

There are tons that support beating kids. This wasn't an abusive marriage--it was an abusive childhood.

 

In my case, my responsibility as outlined in the bible was incredibly clear; it's in the Ten Commandments. "Honor and Obey Thy Mother and Father". I was just trying to do what God wanted.

 

Look what it got me.

 

I only wish I'd somehow been savvy enough to tell those idiots to take their Jesus and shove it. But I bought it. I was a kid.

 

I did take some abuse from my Good Christian ex-boyfriend, but I dumped him for it.

 

Is there actually a Christian law in the NT or OT that supports hitting women? 

 

I am only aware that it was told that husbands must love and respect their wives....so it would seem that your husband was kind of avoiding that whole love thing....

 

Abusers will use anything to justify abusing people...it's really sad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Asimov]

There are tons that support beating kids. This wasn't an abusive marriage--it was an abusive childhood.

 

In my case, my responsibility as outlined in the bible was incredibly clear; it's in the Ten Commandments. "Honor and Obey Thy Mother and Father". I was just trying to do what God wanted.

 

Look what it got me.

 

I only wish I'd somehow been savvy enough to tell those idiots to take their Jesus and shove it. But I bought it. I was a kid.

 

I did take some abuse from my Good Christian ex-boyfriend, but I dumped him for it.

 

Ah, I see....yes the bible does take a heavy hand towards children. But it's a loving sort of abuse.

 

At least they didn't execute you.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I fail to see the point of belittling you.

I could try it....

 

You are an idiot.

You are weak.

You are deceived by the devil.

 

Hmm.. did anything change -- do you feel different?

 

I don't see how making you out to be a lame, weakminded, faithless apostate does anything whatsoever to move the coversation forward.

I've not a doubt that you took something I said as belittling; however, I feel more a kinship with people who've been driven to do radical things than alienated from them.  I got all kinds of criticism/guilt trips when I left fundyism.  It is subtle and mean and I didn't like it either.

I've never been on the bandwagon that you are just making excuses.

You'll find that I'm quite comfortable with you being your wicked little apostate self.

 

Opps...

 

I mean I'm quite comfortable with you being a freethinker.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Pardon--I meant belittling the experiences of. Fleh. I need to proofread when I am upset.

 

As for my "wicked little apostate"--I'm not. I'm a broken-hearted recovering Christian, who can't wait until the last of the pain and scars your stupid religion left me with are gone.

 

By the way:

 

(Cerise @ Oct 20 2005, 12:27 AM)

I'm sorry, but BULLSHIT.  Tragedy and good don't go together.  If god needs to kill you in order to impart a lesson, he's a crap god, and it's a crap lesson.

 

 

Cerise:

 

The most 'tragic' times in my life are my greatest badge of honor and the deepest source of joy. While going through my hard times I really, really hated it but in the end the greatest accomplishments were during that time.

 

I wouldn't trade the adversity I've had for anything.

 

Here you are trying to show how the suffering we went through while begging God for the most minute relief was actually a "good" thing.

 

How's that for being on the bandwagon?

 

And by the way...every version of Christianity I went to handed me the same crap lines about obeying my parents. It wasn't just the "one bad one". They're ALL bad.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Ah, I see....yes the bible does take a heavy hand towards children.  But it's a loving sort of abuse. 

 

At least they didn't execute you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mommie Dearest came close once or twice, actually. But of course, she was "only playing".

 

Fucking psycho.

 

Anyway, yeah. That's why I am so flamingly bitter still, in spite of my best efforts to let it go. If I had not been Christian, if I'd held on to a healthy sense of questioning and not bought into that crap, I could have fought back like my sister, and I wouldn't be anywhere near this broken.

 

In short, I'm one of the many poster girls for why Christianity is bad for children.

[Xthebuilder]

Ha! So much for Isaiah 5:20 . 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

If you are refering to the Israelites woes and condemenations , one must look at the entire text...Israel was going into exile, God was judging His people, because they continued to give false gods worship and praise b4 Him

[Mad_Gerbil]

Pardon--I meant belittling the experiences of. Fleh. I need to proofread when I am upset.

 

Beccas -- I'm dumbfounded as to how I belittled your pain.

Seriously, direct me to where I did that because that is NOT my intent.

 

As for my "wicked little apostate"--I'm not. I'm a broken-hearted recovering Christian, who can't wait until the last of the pain and scars your stupid religion left me with are gone.

 

And I hope those scars never go away because they teach you to NOT EVER allow anyone to abuse you like that again. It is awful you had to go through that; however, the scars are what keep it from happening again.

 

I've went looking for a new church (soon after my abuse) and I've been in churches for 5 minutes and known that it is where abuse occurs -- and I left, because my scars wouldn't let me forget to NEVER LET MY GUARD DOWN AGAIN.

 

I'm not glad you got hurt -- but I'm glad you got the scars and remember them.

IT will protect you.

 

Do you see what I'm saying?

You are wiser now -- hard wisdom, costly, yet very precious.

[Saviourmachine]

Do you see what I'm saying?

You are wiser now -- hard wisdom, costly, yet very precious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think - regarding your posts overhere - that you're in the position to give advice.

 

Innocence is bliss.

[Xthebuilder]

Well, I'm sorry you're so horribly sick. I could take the opportunity to use your story as further proof of my point...but that's cold, and I won't.

 

But frankly? I wasn't asking for anything so fancy as being healed from my disabilities or protected from my twenty years of fucking horror.

 

I just wanted to feel love. Comfort. Hope. Acknowledgment--from somewhere in my life.  That was it. And when I didn't get even that pittance...it broke me. Bad enough when your parents are psycho and one of them hates your very existence. But God was ignoring me too.

 

If your god is all knowing and even exists, he knows exactly what he put me through, and he knows it would have taken almost no effort to keep me "in the fold". He could not be fucking BOTHERED.

 

So now I can't. Even if I believed he existed...why would I offer my heart up to get broken again?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

I can sit and try to analyze what God allows things to happen to anyone, it is unfair, a child bieng hurt, a husband or wife dying prematurley, or a hurricane or earthquake. I do not know these answers, I can go into deep theological debates about how the world was created perfect, and because of jealousy from satan, and the desire of eve and adam to want to be on the same level as God blah blah blah,we as man corrupted nature, it all can be torn down by your side. I understand that, and I get that we all , everyone of us , wants to be accepted, loved for who we are, not what we are. I get that. My question is why do we blame God for the mistakes humans make? I can blame God for this disease, but what good would that do? I can take what life hands me, live the best I can, and continue to get to know my creator, and thats what I will do. I will have days where I am pissed at Him, yell at Him, and there are days like today where I just feel so damn lucky to have one more moment on this earth so i can see my kids get another day older. Where I can feel the sunshine on my face, and as I go through treatments, tell people that they do not need to do this on thier own....

 

i do not want pious prayers, nor quotes of chin up xian soldier, though i am sure it was menat in the best of ways, what i am tring to explain is that as we go through these crap times, and we all do at some level, we havethe choice on what to do, i chose and continue to choose God......

[white_raven23]

I'm not glad you got hurt -- but I'm glad you got the scars and remember them.

IT will protect you.

Do you see what I'm saying?

You are wiser now -- hard wisdom, costly, yet very precious.

 

 

Did you get the wrong idea from my earlier post or something?

 

But let's use Han as an example (hope you don't mind Han, feel free to kick my ass if you do).

 

Han has had some serious tragedy in his life. One of the lessons he came away with..... over time led to his de-conversion.

 

Do you feel qualified to tell Han he "learned the lesson" wrong? How about asking Han about any "deep joys" he's experienced as a result of the tragedies he's dealt with?

 

Addressing the people here in this manner was NOT a suggestion. And you really aren't qualified to offer "perspective" to BeccaStillSeeking unless you've endured the same hardship. All you can reasonably offer is sympathy.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Beccas -- I'm dumbfounded as to how I belittled your pain.

Seriously, direct me to where I did that because that is NOT my intent.

And I hope those scars never go away because they teach you to NOT EVER allow anyone to abuse you like that again.  It is awful you had to go through that; however, the scars are what keep it from happening again.

 

I've went looking for a new church (soon after my abuse) and I've been in churches for 5 minutes and known that it is where abuse occurs -- and I left, because my scars wouldn't let me forget to NEVER LET MY GUARD DOWN AGAIN.

 

I'm not glad you got hurt -- but I'm glad you got the scars and remember them.

IT will protect you.

 

Do you see what I'm saying?

You are wiser now -- hard wisdom, costly, yet very precious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Please take back the load of bullshit you just handed me. Your argument *****IS***** what belittles the suffering of people like me.

 

You want to know the lessons I learned from having that bitch do what she did to me? Here's a list of what I have been trying to "unlearn" ever since.

 

1. Nothing I will ever do is up to acceptable standards.

2. I'm fat, ugly and disgusting.

3. People who claim to love you will betray and hurt you.

4. God doesn't love me, my own parents don't love me, so clearly I'm unworthy of love period.

5. The world is a horrible place.

6. There is no hope for a better life.

7. I don't deserve to be treated well.

8. There are two kinds of people in the world: abusers, and victims.

9. I have to work. I have to work my ass off all the time, without rest, without taking care of myself. I don't deserve to be taken care of.

10. It's OK for other people to treat me like a slave/property/dogshit.

11. I must be on my guard all the time.

12. There is no such thing as safety. Danger could hit at any moment.

13. Men are flakes and untrustworthy.

14. Clergymen don't actually give a shit about anyone.

15. I'm fucked up and crazy, just like my mom; it doesn't matter that she made me that way. I'm still to blame, and the fact that I get treated like shit by other kids for being a "weirdo" is my fault because I just don't try hard enough to act normal.

 

Shall I fucking go on? Here are my scars. You like 'em? Still think they're valuable for anything?

 

These, and the LAUNDRY LIST OF PSYCH DISORDERS I GOT FROM BEING ABUSED, constitute the "wisdom" I came away from my adversity from. And I would do ANYTHING to get rid of ALL of them. I deserve a normal, healthy, happy life without all these horrible memories!

 

So...can you see how far you just shoved your foot down your throat, and do you want to apologize, or should I just write you off as an asshat?

[BeccasStillSeeking]

i do not want pious prayers, nor quotes of chin up xian soldier, though i am sure it was menat in the best of ways, what i am tring to explain is that as we go through these crap times, and we all do at some level, we havethe choice on what to do, i chose and continue to choose God......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The bitterness and pain in me wants to call you a fool, but it's your choice.

 

I just wish you could grok why your decision to do so does not invalidate my need to get the FUCK away from Christianity before it screwed me up even worse, doesn't invalidate why I feel betrayed, and doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't trust your god again even if I had proof he was real.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Wow, Gerbil suddenly vanished.

 

Why do they always do that when I give them both barrels? And if they don't like it, why do they stand around poking me until my trigger finger starts twitching spasmodically?

[Amethyst]

Why do they always do that when I give them both barrels? And if they don't like it, why do they stand around poking me until my trigger finger starts twitching spasmodically?

 

I don't know, but his post here might have something to do with it. Assuming he's not joking, that is.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I don't know, but his post here might have something to do with it.  Assuming he's not joking, that is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He's joking. I think the fact that he has something resembling a sense of humor is why I haven't gone from "both barrels" to "tearing his head off over the course of an hour with a flaming spork".

[Cerise]

And I hope those scars never go away because they teach you to NOT EVER allow anyone to abuse you like that again.  It is awful you had to go through that; however, the scars are what keep it from happening again.

 

I've went looking for a new church (soon after my abuse) and I've been in churches for 5 minutes and known that it is where abuse occurs -- and I left, because my scars wouldn't let me forget to NEVER LET MY GUARD DOWN AGAIN.

 

I'm not glad you got hurt -- but I'm glad you got the scars and remember them.

IT will protect you.

 

Do you see what I'm saying?

You are wiser now -- hard wisdom, costly, yet very precious.

 

Seeing monsters behind every tree, and in every shadow, that isn't wisdom. It's fear and trauma. And it hinders and hurts as much as it protects.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Wow, Gerbil suddenly vanished.

 

Why do they always do that when I give them both barrels? And if they don't like it, why do they stand around poking me until my trigger finger starts twitching spasmodically?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I didn't leave.

 

It was my belief that the pain and suffering taught you something and I tried to bring that out; however, you've proven that it hasn't taught you a thing.

 

I stand corrected.

Thanks for clarifying.