Answered Prayer

[Mad_Gerbil]

Seeing monsters behind every tree, and in every shadow, that isn't wisdom.  It's fear and trauma.  And it hinders and hurts as much as it protects.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Cerise, without exception the wisest people I know are the ones that have endured a great deal of hardship. The most vaccous people I know are people who've had everything easy. Your experiences are part of the reason why you hang out here -- part of the reason why you aren't a dizzy fashion conscious blonde who only cares about jewlery.

 

I don't mean to presume, I really don't -- but I cannot help but feel that what you experienced taught you a great deal about life and reality. IF you could go back and undo all the wrong done to you, would you do that? Where would you be today?

 

Examples:

My brother ended up getting a divorce after a 9 year marriage. He'll tell you today that it was traumatic, painful, and horrible but that it changed his life because after the pain he could analyze what was broken and he discovered that while his former wife had faults he had some as well. He matured greatly through the process.

 

My office mate at work got a divorce from a playboy husband. Hurt like hell but forced her to confront her low self esteem. She admits today that although it was painful it made her a better person in the long run because it forced her to deal with some serious issues.

 

There is a reason why there are sayings like:

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Once burned, twice wise.

etc.

 

The real tragety is people who don't learn -- those that do should still remember the pain but be happy they know they don't have to go back there and be glad to have learned.

[white_raven23]

I didn't leave.

 

It was my belief that the pain and suffering taught you something and I tried to bring that out; however, you've proven that it hasn't taught you a thing.

 

I stand corrected.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

Mad Gerbil,

 

Not everyone believes the purpose of a mortal life is to learn "lessons". As for the purpose of mortal life....I don't know myself. Is there purpose? I mean distinct individual purpose for each sentient one of us? I'd like to think so. And I'd like to think something of ourselves lives on when our physical bodies are no more.

But for me to dictate my idea that perhaps this life preps us for another...when I have no verifiable concrete proof of such......my ego just isn't that massive.

 

As for the idea of life "lessons" as I said, not everyone shares that concept. To people who do not, such "hand-smacking" by "substitute teacher" Mad Gerbil, is pretty insulting.

 

I can only assume you wish to bait BeccaStillSeeking.

 

Do you get some thrill out of her raw emotional response?

 

Such pleasure in someone else's pain is.....disturbing.

[LloydDobler]

Cerise, without exception the wisest people I know are the ones that have endured a great deal of hardship.  The most vaccous people I know are people who've had everything easy.  Your experiences are part of the reason why you hang out here -- part of the reason why you aren't a dizzy fashion conscious blonde who only cares about jewlery.

 

I don't mean to presume, I really don't -- but I cannot help but feel that what you experienced taught you a great deal about life and reality.  IF you could go back and undo all the wrong done to you, would you do that?  Where would you be today?

 

Examples:

My brother ended up getting a divorce after a 9 year marriage.  He'll tell you today that it was traumatic, painful, and horrible but that it changed his life because after the pain he could analyze what was broken and he discovered that while his former wife had faults he had some as well.  He matured greatly through the process.

 

My office mate at work got a divorce from a playboy husband.  Hurt like hell but forced her to confront her low self esteem.  She admits today that although it was painful it made her a better person in the long run because it forced her to deal with some serious issues.

 

There is a reason why there are sayings like:

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Once burned, twice wise.

etc.

 

The real tragety is people who don't learn -- those that do should still remember the pain but be happy they know they don't have to go back there and be glad to have learned.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And just like the original post, all this proves that god does NOT have a plan, he is NOT watching out for us, and heaven helps those who help themselves.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Not everyone believes the purpose of a mortal life is to learn "lessons". As for the purpose of mortal life....I don't know myself. Is there purpose? I mean distinct individual purpose for each sentient one of us? I'd like to think so. And I'd like to think something of ourselves lives on when our physical bodies are no more.

 

I didn't say anything about preparation for the next life.

I've found difficult situations to be quite profitable and helpful in making this life better. Beccas has not. To each his/her own.

 

But for me to dictate my idea that perhaps this life preps us for another...when I have no verifiable concrete proof of such......my ego just isn't that massive.

 

If you don't know the purpose of life perhaps you shouldn't declare mine wrong until you find out for yourself --- you see, that strikes me as 'ego'.

 

As for the idea of life "lessons" as I said, not everyone shares that concept. To people who do not, such "hand-smacking" by "substitute teacher" Mad Gerbil, is pretty insulting.

 

I'm not hand smacking anyone.

To me it is incomprehensible that someone could go through that and not emerge scarred -- yet in some ways wiser. Now I've several claims here on the table that people in fact manage to endure a great deal of pain without realizing any benefit whatsoever -- I found the claim incredible and despite my best efforts to refute it, the claim stands.

 

Okay... I stand corrected.

Bewildered, but corrected.

 

Everyone who has had a crushing experience simply PM me and I'll admit that you didn't learn a thing if you want.

[Ouroboros]

But let's use Han as an example (hope you don't mind Han, feel free to kick my ass if you do).

I can't because we have no "ass-kicking-smiley"... so I guess I have to let you go ahead... *sigh*

 

Nivek suggested I should start using the Hans Hammer from Hell! That hurts more than a foot! HA!

[Amethyst]

I can't because we have no "ass-kicking-smiley"... so I guess I have to let you go ahead... *sigh*

 

How about or ?

 

And there's always .

 

Wow, I had no idea there were such violent smileys until now.

[Cerise]

Cerise, without exception the wisest people I know are the ones that have endured a great deal of hardship.  The most vaccous people I know are people who've had everything easy.  Your experiences are part of the reason why you hang out here -- part of the reason why you aren't a dizzy fashion conscious blonde who only cares about jewlery.

 

Um, no, I'm not a dizzy fashion conscious blonde who only cares about jewlery because I have reddish-brown hair and like books. None of that had anything to do with me being abused. I've known many people who haven't been abused and who still aren't dizzy fashion conscious blondes who only cares about jewlery. Likewise, I've met some people who have been abused and could quite easily fit under the stereotype of "ditzy blonde".

 

I don't mean to presume, I really don't -- but I cannot help but feel that what you experienced taught you a great deal about life and reality.  IF you could go back and undo all the wrong done to you, would you do that?  Where would you be today?

 

It's quite useless, isn't it, to speculate about who you would be if such and such didn't happen? Almost as useless as debating what Hamlet would have been like if he hadn't listened to his ghost of a father. Or what Romeo and Juiliet would be doing right now if the note had gotten to Romeo in time. If I didn't go through what I'd been through I would be a different person. Not better, not worse, but different.

 

That doesn't mean the suffering was "worth it" in any way. It just measn that it effected me. Mostly negatively.

 

I don't know shit about "life" and "reality" unless those are synonyms for "pain" and "trauma". On the other hand, I know a lot more about shame, guilt, fear, and insecurity than I ever wanted to. Are you going to sit there and call that wisdom?

 

Examples:

My brother ended up getting a divorce after a 9 year marriage.  He'll tell you today that it was traumatic, painful, and horrible but that it changed his life because after the pain he could analyze what was broken and he discovered that while his former wife had faults he had some as well.  He matured greatly through the process.

 

Age does that "maturing" thing just as easily. And less traumatically.

 

My office mate at work got a divorce from a playboy husband.  Hurt like hell but forced her to confront her low self esteem.  She admits today that although it was painful it made her a better person in the long run because it forced her to deal with some serious issues.

 

Puritan hangovers. Society bangs into your head that you have to look for "bright sides" and "silver linings" for everything. It's a coping mechanism for pain, sure, but that doesn't mean it works for everyone. Or even that it's a true representation of what's happening.

 

Regardless, Gerbil, unless you feel secure enough in this whole pain = wisdom thing to go around hurting others in order to help them better themselves (and you don't seem to), all you're showing is that you have a nice, safe little coping mechanism that works for you after the fact.

 

There is a reason why there are sayings like:

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Once burned, twice wise.

etc.

 

Yes, because people love trite little stupid maxims because they reduce the neccessity of thinking.

 

The real tragety is people who don't learn -- those that do should still remember the pain but be happy they know they don't have to go back there and be glad to have learned.

 

And here you go. Presuming again. Wish you'd stop that.

[scotter]

To me it is incomprehensible that someone could go through that and not emerge scarred yet in some ways wiser.

 

To me it is incomprehensible that someone could read through Becca's experience, and has not learnt to be more sympathetic and let his pride stands.

 

I found it incredible and despite I wish otherwise, person like MG, and who claims to be a Christian, exists.

[Mad_Gerbil]

To me it is incomprehensible that someone could go through that and not emerge scarred yet in some ways wiser.

 

To me it is incomprehensible that someone could read through Becca's experience, and has not learnt to be more sympathetic and let his pride stands.

 

I found it incredible and despite I wish otherwise, person like MG, and who claims to be a Christian, exists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If Becca didn't want to engage in a discussion and trade thoughts back and forth then Becca would go hang out elsewhere.

 

I've told Becca several times already that:

1: What happened was wrong.

2: That leaving that kind of abuse was the right thing to do.

3: That I hope that despite the pain some good comes from all of it.

 

I know of no better way to support someone than that.

Perhaps you could fill me in on what I should have done?

[scotter]

My first quote "MG" pretty much could have conveyed.

 

Newest:

If Becca didn't want to engage in a discussion and trade thoughts back and forth then Becca would go hang out elsewhere.

 

I see pride and non-sympathy again. You have proven my point.

[Mad_Gerbil]

My first quote "MG" pretty much could have conveyed.

 

Newest:

If Becca didn't want to engage in a discussion and trade thoughts back and forth then Becca would go hang out elsewhere.

 

I see pride and non-sympathy again. You have proven my point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I proved your point by crediting Becca with enough intelligence to expose herself to discussions she's interested in having and shielding herself from discussions she doesn't wish to have?

 

I think she's throwing alot of hard material out that there is worth looking at.

You, however, are just taking pot shots.

Come up with something substantive for once.

 

I can wait.

[JeffXL]

Is there actually a Christian law in the NT or OT that supports hitting women? 

 

Not laws, but women are treated like shit, and the BuyBull clearly holds that women are nothing compared to men:

 

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html

 

http://www.evilbible.com/sexism_in_the_torah.htm

 

I was quite fortunate, having only a very dull Christian experience. I left because it was so obviously a lie.

 

God has never done a thing. Everything that feeds, clothes, shelters, and makes our lives better have come through human endeavours. I can show those who labor to provide these things. God has never, ever cured a disease-- people have. I've never heard of any deity helping my cousin plant, harvest, or care for his cattle.

 

Nothing fails like prayer. The weak excuses that prayer is not God's will at this time is like an astrologer saying it's the wrong time of the month. What utter bullshit.

[Cerise]

I've told Becca several times already that:

1: What happened was wrong.

2: That leaving that kind of abuse was the right thing to do.

3: That I hope that despite the pain some good comes from all of it.

 

I know of no better way to support someone than that.

Perhaps you could fill me in on what I should have done?

 

Is that what you think you're saying? Because it comes out sounding like this:

 

1: What happened made you who you are.

2. Being abused is a lesson you must learn from.

3. Pain must somehow be beneficial otherwise you aren't trying hard enough.

 

I certainly know much better ways to support someone than that. Perhaps you should inquire as to what those ways are.

[Kay]

I can't because we have no "ass-kicking-smiley"...

 

I have a "swift kick to the nuts smiley" if you're interested:

[white_raven23]

If you don't know the purpose of life perhaps you shouldn't declare mine wrong until you find out for yourself --- you see, that strikes me as 'ego'.

I didn't say anything about you being wrong or right, I was trying to appeal to your sensitivity. Need I remind you of the Golden Rule? If you had gone through such pain, how would you feel if a virtual stranger asked you what you learned from the experience?

Such a question may come from a trusted friend....given the right circumstance. From a stranger it is rude and insulting. You are asking for emotionally sensitive information. BeccaStillSeeking doesn't feel you care about her enough to share such information with you (I'm guessing Becca, It's how I would feel that's for sure).

Of course she learned something from her experience! She probably just figures you don't deserve to know what she learned.

The more you belittle her for not laying her heart bare for your perusal, the more right she is that you cannot be trusted with anything sensitive she might share.

 

Now I've several claims here on the table that people in fact manage to endure a great deal of pain without realizing any benefit whatsoever -- I found the claim incredible and despite my best efforts to refute it, the claim stands.

 

Okay... I stand corrected.

Bewildered, but corrected.

 

Everyone who has had a crushing experience simply PM me and I'll admit that you didn't learn a thing if you want.

 

Again....it's not a matter of learning nothing....it's a matter of learning nothing which we are inclined to share with a stranger.

[Amethyst]

Again....it's not a matter of learning nothing....it's a matter of learning nothing which we are inclined to share with a stranger.

 

And keep in mind this is the Internet. Whatever is typed here, anyone can read. Even if you're using a pseudonym, like me, people you know can still read it and maybe figure out who you are. Some people don't want to post extremely personal stuff online, which is understandable.

[Fweethawt]

If you are refering to the Israelites woes and condemenations , one must look at the entire text...Israel was going into exile, God was judging His people, because they continued to give false gods worship and praise b4 Him

Yes, yes of course, it's always a contextual misinterpretation, isn't it?

 

[Fweethawt]

I don't know shit about "life" and "reality" unless those are synonyms for "pain" and "trauma".  On the other hand, I know a lot more about shame, guilt, fear, and insecurity than I ever wanted to.

I'm thinking that this isn't entirely true. But I know where you're coming from within the context of this conversation.

 

 

*hugs*

[mwc]

And I hope those scars never go away because they teach you to NOT EVER allow anyone to abuse you like that again.  It is awful you had to go through that; however, the scars are what keep it from happening again.

 

I've went looking for a new church (soon after my abuse) and I've been in churches for 5 minutes and known that it is where abuse occurs -- and I left, because my scars wouldn't let me forget to NEVER LET MY GUARD DOWN AGAIN.

 

I'm not glad you got hurt -- but I'm glad you got the scars and remember them.

IT will protect you.

 

Do you see what I'm saying?

You are wiser now -- hard wisdom, costly, yet very precious.

 

I see perfectly what you are trying to say. It makes perfect sense to me. You stick your hand in a fire and you'll be less inclined to repeat that stupid mistake. However, what is to be taken away from this "lesson?" I don't want to put words into anybody's mouth (although I will and I sure I'll be corrected if I'm out of line) but here's what I seem to be reading:

 

- Becca (and others in various ways) was abused.

- You say take knowledge of abuse and now you won't be abused again.

- She stops being abused.

- Lesson learned.

- Everyone's happy.

 

This is a nice summary but it leaves out the fine parts. Maybe she's done being abused by her mother and she seems to have walked out on a boyfriend that was abusive. Good for her. Lesson learned, right? The problem is the baggage she now carries around. This is what you're ignoring. Unless things change dramatically she will likely have any number of relationship issues throughout her life (trust issues, etc.) Is the loss of the ability to trust other people, even those you feel you should be able to trust, the lesson she should learn? I doubt that's what you're wanting to say but that is what you seem to be implying when you diminish those 'side-effects' of the so-called "lesson." This is the insult. It seems to say since she's no longer abused, she can now just be a regular happy and healthy person but since she's not she must not have learned the lesson. That's crap. This is like saying that Christopher Reeves must not have learned the lesson since he didn't hop right out of that chair he had to live in until he died. I'm sure he learned the lesson but learning the lesson doesn't magically heal the wounds (physical or emotional). To apply your logic, however, he did more good as a spokesperson than as an actor. God apparently wanted fetal stem cell research.

 

Obviously she gained wisdom. She knows she shouldn't put up with abuse anymore (unfortunately these situations often create a person who ends up in abusive relationships even though they believe they are trying to avoid them). A child has few options and so it sounds like she turned to the *one* option she thought she had. The ultimate trust. She turned to biblegod. He failed to bring comfort into her life. While I'm sure she wanted the whole experience to simply stop (and I would imagine prayed for it) it sounds like comfort and relief were the primary things she prayed for. Simple enough. This is something the bible does in fact say you may have from god (unlike other "selfish" prayers this one isn't a test of god or some maybe you'll get it but it's pretty much a given). Comfort did not come as promised (and I could care less about Paul and his "thorn" and all that crap because jesus, aka "GOD," himself gave the word about giving comfort so what happened to anyone else in the entirety of the bible is irrelevent). So she could not trust any authoirty figures in her life. Is that the lesson to learn? People who love you will lie to you? People who love you will hurt you? People who love you simply cannot be trusted? Not just people mind you, but "GOD" himself. So, yes, she learned this lesson and seems to have separated from those that hurt her. Her mother. God. Everyone. To put this into a xian context what did this lesson cost her? Apparently her soul. Is that the lesson she should have learned? Turn away from your abusers and go to hell? God did not keep up his end of the deal by not giving comfort and helping his lost little lamb. God made himself the enemy by "siding," through his inaction ,with her abusers. God turned from her she did not turn from god. He abused her (and many others and there's some of me in my attitude here) and anyone who sides with "god" is siding with, and condoning, this abuse. You are condoning this abuse. The fact that her experience pushed her away from "god" instead of closer to "god" is the problems xians have. It like that saying that the thing you're looking for is always in the last place you look (even if it's the 2nd out of millions of possible places). She turned to "god" and found nothing (and is still seeking from what I can tell). You turned to "god" and apparently got something (the last place you looked). I'm glad it works for you since that's all that really matters now isn't it?

 

Lessons are important to grow as people (ie. wisdom/maturity). God does not want this since this life is the warm-up for the next one. Once you die any lesson learned will be unimportant as you *will* submit to the will of god. Maturing does not matter in the grand scheme of things in the xian world. Without "god" lessons can be passed to younger generations and, hopefully, help them avoid those same problems. History shows that this, unfortunately, doesn't work too well. We are getting better but extremely and painfully, slowly. It also wouldn't take too much to knock us back a few steps in this progression. This possibility should not deter the effort however.

 

So experiences like Becca's are very confusing. The "lesson" of "don't be abused" seems to have created more problems than simply not having any "lesson" at all. It also creates the "why me?" problem. If this lesson is so valuable then everyone should be abused so they can "learn" too. Becca can provide warning but not everyone will hear or understand the warning and end up abused as well. If she happens to know one of these people personally then she might get the "lesson" of guilt for not properly helping this person avoid the abusive situation. It's quite a mess once all the dominoes start falling. So why don't you tell us what lesson(s) she (and the rest of us for that matter) should have learned?

 

mwc

[Saviourmachine]

Exactly mwc.

 

If you, M_G, learned a lesson the hard way, be glad about it, but don't even let others have the slightiest idea that they should take lessons from their experiences. Maybe a good definition of the nature of these experiences is that nobody deserves to undergo them. Not that there are lessons hidden within them! When somebody commits suicide, what lesson is learned?

[Razor]

Exactly mwc.

 

If you, M_G, learned a lesson the hard way, be glad about it, but don't even let others have the slightiest idea that they should take lessons from their experiences. Maybe a good definition of the nature of these experiences is that nobody deserves to undergo them. Not that there are lessons hidden within them! When somebody commits suicide, what lesson is learned?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

None of course!

 

However I am glad that the God I have experienced and know, has no intentions of leaving a Single person behind, that his love is overwhelming and nothing can with stand it.

 

On the subject of prayer answered, believe this or not is up to you and of no consequence to me, I am only relating for you here.

 

When I was a boy of pre teen age, a freind of mine another boy of the same age group, from a devout Christian family was very sick in hospital with Rhuematic fever.

He must have been close to death, because his family and freinds gathered together at his home and prayed for him.

He recovered from the sickness.

 

Some years later as teenagers we where talking, as teenage boys do, and the topic of conversation turned to that terrible illness he had.... when he decided to confide in me that as he lay very ill in that hospital bed, Jesus walked into his hospital room out of no where, called him by name, and spoke to him about all these people praying for him to get better.

 

He said that Jesus said it in a way as if somthing where to be done about this prayer.

 

I was in no way a Christian back in those days, he took a real chance relating somthing like that to me in those days, because he must have known that he risked Ridicule from me, especially in that teen age group as well.

 

I have always believed him though from day one.

 

Peace

[Mad_Gerbil]

Exactly mwc.

 

If you, M_G, learned a lesson the hard way, be glad about it, but don't even let others have the slightiest idea that they should take lessons from their experiences. Maybe a good definition of the nature of these experiences is that nobody deserves to undergo them. Not that there are lessons hidden within them! When somebody commits suicide, what lesson is learned?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Saviourmachine:

 

We'll have to disagree there.

It is the nature of life that bad stuff happens to entirely innocent people and there are two ways to handle it -- one can have a negative reaction, curl up into a ball, and die OR one can fight, learn, and grow. (most people have a combination of reactions).

 

I'm going to encourage people to fight, learn, and grow -- and turn the experience (as much as possible) into something that makes them wiser, stronger, and better. I'm gonna do that by claiming that I've been hurt as well -- and while there was negative fall out I'm begining to see I can turn the whole thing into a positive as well.

 

Since the option to go back and 'undo' the wrong isn't available I'm gonna shoot for the next best thing.

 

Now if someone doesn't wanna do that, fine.

It doesn't make me an insensitive person to suggest a path of healing and strength -- it only means I've been there and I know its a tough road to take but in the end it can have some suprising benefits.

[Cerise]

*starts methodically tearing out her hair by the roots*

 

AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH

 

 

For fuck's sake can you not READ? Gerbil, THOSE AREN'T THE ONLY TWO OPTIONS. GET A CLUE.

[Cerise]

It doesn't make me an insensitive person to suggest a path of healing and strength -- it only means I've been there and I know its a tough road to take but in the end it can have some suprising benefits.

 

It makes you an arrogant prick when you assume all over the place. Go benefit yourself up a tree. I'm done.

[mwc]

None of course!

 

However I am glad that the God I have experienced and know, has no intentions of leaving a Single person behind, that his love is overwhelming and nothing can with stand it.

 

On the subject of prayer answered, believe this or not is up to you and of no consequence to me, I am only relating for you here.

 

When I was a boy of pre teen age, a freind of mine another boy of the same age group, from a devout Christian family was very sick in hospital with Rhuematic fever.

He must have been close to death, because his family and freinds gathered together at his home and prayed for him.

He recovered from the sickness.

 

Some years later as teenagers we where talking, as teenage boys do, and the topic of conversation turned to that terrible illness he had.... when he decided to confide in me that as he lay very ill in that hospital bed, Jesus walked into his hospital room out of no where, called him by name, and spoke to him about all these people praying for him to get better.

 

He said that Jesus said it in a way as if somthing where to be done about this prayer.

 

I was in no way a Christian back in those days, he took a real chance relating somthing like that to me in those days, because he must have known that he risked Ridicule from me, especially in that teen age group as well.

 

I have always believed him though from day one.

 

Peace

 

That's quite a story. I've got another one sort of like it (one I don't really think about too often).

 

A friend of mine in the sixth grade. Came from a good Christian home. Believer. All that great stuff. Got blown away when a shotgun accidentally discharged into his chest.

 

I guess they really aren't similar at all now that I compare the two.

 

mwc