Answered Prayer

[Amethyst]

My mother died from cancer when I was in high school. She was a "True Believer." Sang in the choir, went to church every Sunday, rammed Christianity down my throat, told me I was going to hell no matter what I did, and all that.

 

Well, no matter how many people prayed for her, including me, and herself, she died. She'd gone through chemo, went into remission once, went through chemo again, lost all her hair, and ended up dying from the tumors in her body that spread. What fucking lession was she supposed to learn from that? She wasn't Christian enough to be healed? God likes to say no? Don't believe or you will die? I fail to see any lesson here, other than a cult that failed her.

[Casey]

I heard of a fellow once who, whilst serving in Vietnam, stepped on a Jumping Jack (Bouncing Betty in American). These were a vicious type of anti-personel mine; when they were triggered, a small charge threw a grenade into the air where it exploded about waist height. They were descendents of the German Springer mine of WW2.

 

Nothing happened but a loud click. I really don't know whether the soldier concerned was praying at the time or watching his Left and Right of Arc as a good Infantryman should, but given he was an Australian, I susupect the latter. That such mines failed to explode didn't happen very often, so why? Who knows? No Armourer or Ordinance Officer could be bothered to strip the mine to find out, but speculations ranged from a faulty detonator to corroded springs to ... take your pick.

 

Of course there are those who would say it was down to god, but I don't think, despite such incidents, that anyone with any sense would take to stamping around in a minefield simply on the basis of such a "miracle".

Casey

[mwc]

It is the nature of life that bad stuff happens to entirely innocent people and there are two ways to handle it -- one can have a negative reaction, curl up into a ball, and die OR one can fight, learn, and grow.  (most people have a combination of reactions).

Agreed. Good and bad things happen to everyone.

 

Agreed. People react differently.

 

Disagree. There are more than two options and even then there are many degrees (you essenially say this by stating people have a combination of reactions but the implication is one course of action is better than the other). Sometimes curling up into a ball is the best thing a person can do to survive (ie. a passive resistence) so it's not necessarily the wrong or "negative" answer. Of course for your argument to have any weight we'll need to know what the definitions of "egative reaction, curl up into a ball, and die" and "fight, learn, and grow" are since they more than likely mean different things to different people when used in this context.

 

I'm going to encourage people to fight, learn, and grow -- and turn the experience (as much as possible) into something that makes them wiser, stronger, and better.  I'm gonna do that by claiming that I've been hurt as well -- and while there was negative fall out I'm begining to see I can turn the whole thing into a positive as well.

So, as I said above, you give your "preferred" or "correct" course of action. When life gives you lemons...that sort of thing. It seems quite the optimistic view. What if life gives you dirt? No lemons for that person. Everyone should do the best they can with what hand is dealt to them but to basically make the blanket statement that anyone that isn't dealing with situations the same way as yourself isn't dealing with their situation is quite arrogant.

 

Your view also assumes the ability to agree on what is better. My silver lining may be quite different than yours. I live in earthquake country. If an earthquake destroys everything I have and all the people I know I would quite devastated and rebuilding would be a huge task but very achievable. I would, however, never be the same again. Stuff can be replaced even though I would miss some of the momentos I have of special times and people (especially assuming they're all dead). Unlike others I would be destroyed that my loved ones are dead. I'm not the kind of person that stands up and thanks "god" because I survived (and I can't honestly say I ever was but since I never had to endure that as a xian I'll never know). I'm now the kind of person that would curse "god" because I alone survived. My life could be "better" because of this mess but no one should have to die (or suffer) so that I can learn a "lesson." This is obviously an extreme situation but it is topical in the wake of Katrina, the earthquake in Pakistan and maybe the upcoming hurricane damage playing out now in the gulf.

 

There's also an assumption, in the local context of these groups, that the "lesson" was for Becca (and others). What if the "lesson" was for her parents? What if she was simply an unwitting pawn in the "lesson" her parents were to learn and, as such, disposable? A quick example of this is quite easy. Tell me about Job's family? There's no information on them is there since the story wasn't about them. It was all about Job. His first family was disposable in the eyes of "god." Why not since "god" gave him an even better family. I'm sorry but there is no replacement for my family and they aren't pawns to teach "lessons" or be used in "tests." If Becca's parents were pawns used to teach her a "lesson" then "god" was wrong. If Becca was a pawn used to teach her parents a "lesson" then "god" was wrong. We are not play things. If parents use one of their children to teach a "lesson" to their other kid(s) in a malicious way then those parents are wrong.

 

Since the option to go back and 'undo' the wrong isn't available I'm gonna shoot for the next best thing.

Which is?

 

Now if someone doesn't wanna do that, fine.

It doesn't make me an insensitive person to suggest a path of healing and strength -- it only means I've been there and I know its a tough road to take but in the end it can have some suprising benefits.

What is this path?

What are these benefits?

 

You speak in generalities which read like you're really skirting the issue. There must be some connection to the "correct" direction you're speaking about and something else you haven't yet mentioned. So please cut to the chase and enlighten the group.

 

mwc

[Amethyst]

Your view also assumes the ability to agree on what is better. My silver lining may be quite different than yours. I live in earthquake country. If an earthquake destroys everything I have and all the people I know I would quite devastated and rebuilding would be a huge task but very achievable. I would, however, never be the same again. Stuff can be replaced even though I would miss some of the momentos I have of special times and people (especially assuming they're all dead). Unlike others I would be destroyed that my loved ones are dead. I'm not the kind of person that stands up and thanks "god" because I survived (and I can't honestly say I ever was but since I never had to endure that as a xian I'll never know). I'm now the kind of person that would curse "god" because I alone survived. My life could be "better" because of this mess but no one should have to die (or suffer) so that I can learn a "lesson." This is obviously an extreme situation but it is topical in the wake of Katrina, the earthquake in Pakistan and maybe the upcoming hurricane damage playing out now in the gulf.

 

Agreed. I went through a fire the other year. It was not started by accident, but the guy who was living upstairs in the townhome where I was living in the basement killed himself. There were no signs except the day before; he looked sad. It was the only so-called "sign". I had asked him earlier that week how work was going, and he said 'fine'. He was never the talkative type. He'd visited his parents at Thanksgiving that year, just a few weeks earlier (the fire was the weekend before Christmas). They said that he had no signs either.

 

So anyway, I nearly died. I would probably have died if the window hadn't broken because of the laws of physics. Some people called it a miracle. I disagree. It would've been a miracle if my housemate had survived, and his brain tumor (they found it in the autopsy) had been miraculously healed as well.

 

What lesson is there to learn? That I should "go back to god" because he nearly killed me? What kind of deity terrorizes his creations by attempting to murder them to scare them into obedience? What kind of deity kills innocent people in order to make their friends convert? And if you're a "True Christian," you must believe that suicidal people go to hell. Why send someone to hell forever in order to convert another person?

 

Does anyone else have any idea how tyrannical that sounds? How cultlike it sounds that "there must be a reason you survived, and that reason is for you to go to church and be brainwashed like a Good Christian, even though your friend went to hell forever because god made him commit suicide in order for you to reconvert?" That's not a god that I want to worship.

[Guest Guest]

Mad Gerbal,

 

We all face adversity off and on all our lives. It is safe to say that some of this adversity will help us become better people. But in truth some of the adversity we face we can do without. Some adversity only makes life harder and can be very dificult to overcome. A child being abused or woman being raped is some adversity that no one should ever have to endure. I see nothing possitive in this kind of adversity. Get real. Have some compassion. Admit that the faith that you believe in is just that; FAITH. There is no truth in it. If we're all honest we can just say we don't really know why we have to thruough this life but we all want to go through it the best we can not the worst we can. We do learn through mistake and adversity but it also can cause misery that we would rather not go through. I've gone through my share of adversity and have made my share of mistakes. But they are mine and no one elses. Some could have handled my problems better than me and others would have handled them worse. In my "world" I've been to "hell" and back several times and I may go again but I hope not. If we're honest here we have all gone through shit that we would rather not have had to go through. So just get off your high horse and GET REAL! I usually respect what you have to say even when I disagree with you which is most of the time, but right now you coming across as a BIG asshole.

[Mythra]

Talk about amazing miracles.

 

Take a look at Lance Armstrong. He prayed and prayed to be cured of his cancer. Must've got visited by Jesus in his hospital room. Had everyone in his church praying for him too.

 

Got cured of cancer, came back and won the tour de france 7 freakin times.

 

Inspirational.

 

What?

 

 

Oh.

 

 

Lance Armstrong is an atheist?

 

 

Nevermind.

[crazy-tiger]

Y'know... I really do like reading your posts...

[Ouroboros]

MG and Razor,

 

What Bible verse supports the claim that God gives us pain and not answering prayers just to teach us something? I'm giving you the chance to show me which verse. Most of Jesus' preaching was about that God will answer all your prayers, so where does this "Only if it's God's will", and "God is teaching you something", come from? Is it from Job in OT? Did Jesus ever claim this Theological concept? I have to ask, because I can't remember what supports these theories.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I didn't leave.

 

It was my belief that the pain and suffering taught you something and I tried to bring that out; however, you've proven that it hasn't taught you a thing.

 

I stand corrected.

Thanks for clarifying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are such a complete, heartless, hyperjudgmental asshole that I can't even begin to touch on it with words.

 

You are GLAD I was abused. (And, asshole, you still have not apologized for saying that).

 

And now you are acting derisive because the "valuable lessons" from being abused supposedly flew right over my head.

 

Unbelievable.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I didn't say anything about preparation for the next life.

I've found difficult situations to be quite profitable and helpful in making this life better.  Beccas has not.  To each his/her own.

If you don't know the purpose of life perhaps you shouldn't declare mine wrong until you find out for yourself --- you see, that strikes me as 'ego'.

I'm not hand smacking anyone.

To me it is incomprehensible that someone could go through that and not emerge scarred -- yet in some ways wiser.  Now I've several claims here on the table that people in fact manage to endure a great deal of pain without realizing any benefit whatsoever -- I found the claim incredible and despite my best efforts to refute it, the claim stands.

 

Okay... I stand corrected.

Bewildered, but corrected.

 

Everyone who has had a crushing experience simply PM me and I'll admit that you didn't learn a thing if you want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not the point, dumbass.

 

You claim that the torture I went through was VALUABLE and that you're GLAD I went through it because of the "lessons" it supposedly taught me.

 

I called you out as an insensitive ass who is completely ignoring the pain, suffering, permanent mental and physical health problems, and risk of DEATH I experienced during these "life lessons".

 

YOU still insist that the horror I went through was a "valuable learning experience" and are now saying I "missed the point" of it.

 

I say you're a compassionless jerk who suffers from a severe case of foot-in-mouth, and is too full of himself to not be in complete denial about it.

 

My nightmare childhood, a "valuable lesson"?

 

FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Stop saying that my abuse was a GOOD THING that taught me VALUABLE LESSONS, perhaps?

 

And there's no excuse to be such an insensitive prick.

 

 

To me it is incomprehensible that someone could read through Becca's experience, and has not learnt to be more sympathetic and let his pride stands.

 

I found it incredible and despite I wish otherwise, person like MG, and who claims to be a Christian, exists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If Becca didn't want to engage in a discussion and trade thoughts back and forth then Becca would go hang out elsewhere.

 

I've told Becca several times already that:

1: What happened was wrong.

2: That leaving that kind of abuse was the right thing to do.

3: That I hope that despite the pain some good comes from all of it.

 

I know of no better way to support someone than that.

Perhaps you could fill me in on what I should have done?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Asimov]

Well....I think there is always something to be learned from every situation, good or bad. We shouldn't of course say that because a situation was a moment of learning that it was a good situation, but it does help if you do look at what was learned.

 

And this is true for every situation.

 

However, MG...you have absolutely no tact.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I have a "swift kick to the nuts smiley" if you're interested:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Too bad it doesn't come with Virtual Sensation or something. Otherwise I'd be giving that asshole Gerbil a whole screenful of them about now. What a complete bastard. "Your abuse was a learning experience! You should be glad of it! Oh wait, you're not? Then you're stupid!"

[BeccasStillSeeking]

*starts methodically tearing out her hair by the roots*

 

AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH

 

 

For fuck's sake can you not READ?  Gerbil, THOSE AREN'T THE ONLY TWO OPTIONS.  GET A CLUE.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He's got his head too far up his ass to hear you.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Well....I think there is always something to be learned from every situation, good or bad.  We shouldn't of course say that because a situation was a moment of learning that it was a good situation, but it does help if you do look at what was learned.

 

And this is true for every situation.

 

However, MG...you have absolutely no tact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The idea that SOME wisdom can be drawn from any experience is relatively sound in and of itself.

 

Still, anyone with sensitivity and brains, our darling Gerbil clearly excluded, would understand that sometimes that "wisdom" comes with a price that NOBODY should ever have to pay. Any idiot who thinks that what I went through was a "good thing that built my character" needs to have the skin caned off his ass to build HIS character.

 

*graaahhSNARL* Seriously. Hold me back, man. I've got the flaming spork in my hand now, and am near-completely-irrational with outrage.

[Mad_Gerbil]

You speak in generalities which read like you're really skirting the issue.  There must be some connection to the "correct" direction you're speaking about and something else you haven't yet mentioned.  So please cut to the chase and enlighten the group.

 

          mwc

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply -- it is an oasis.

 

As for speaking in generalities, I think that is necessary in this case because for each person the abuse is different and the path for healing and recovery is different. There is no one size fits all in this case, IMHO.

[Asimov]

The idea that SOME wisdom can be drawn from any experience is relatively sound in and of itself.

 

Still, anyone with sensitivity and brains, our darling Gerbil clearly excluded, would understand that sometimes that "wisdom" comes with a price that NOBODY should ever have to pay. Any idiot who thinks that what I went through was a "good thing that built my character" needs to have the skin caned off his ass to build HIS character.

 

*graaahhSNARL* Seriously. Hold me back, man. I've got the flaming spork in my hand now, and am near-completely-irrational with outrage.

 

Since anything builds your character, it was entirely unnecessary for you to be abused in order to build your character, good things are not unnecessary things.

 

I'm not entirely sure what to learn from the situation of being abused...except to learn not to do it to other people.

 

Anyways...I'm rambling. I seriously think you shouldn't put any stock into what MG is saying, either he's retarded or he's baiting you...I'm going with a little bit of both.

[Ouroboros]

Just to throw in a monkey wrench here.

 

MG, where's the Bible verse that supports your claim that you learn from bad experience?

 

(Not that I'm arguing against you, but just to see if you have a religious foundation for the claim.

Besides, I think you learn more from bad choices and mistakes, than just a bad experience.

A bad experience only gives you an experience that was bad, and might make your or break you, but a mistake you made, you learn not to do again.)

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Since anything builds your character, it was entirely unnecessary for you to be abused in order to build your character, good things are not unnecessary things.

 

I'm not entirely sure what to learn from the situation of being abused...except to learn not to do it to other people. 

 

Anyways...I'm rambling.  I seriously think you shouldn't put any stock into what MG is saying, either he's retarded or he's baiting you...I'm going with a little bit of both.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I suspect he's stupid, stubborn, and so married to "being right" that he just blithely told an abuse survivor that what she went through was "a valuable life lesson I'm glad you experienced!" and is now trying to DEFEND that indefensible statement.

 

If he'd popped out with this bit of drivel in a RL room, he'd soon be fleeing it with people yelling and throwing things behind him. Unfortunately, there's no such social bitch-slapping available on the Net.

[Asimov]

I suspect he's stupid, stubborn, and so married to "being right" that he just blithely told an abuse survivor that what she went through was "a valuable life lesson I'm glad you experienced!" and is now trying to DEFEND that indefensible statement.

 

My mother killed herself because of her "valuable life lesson".

[Mad_Gerbil]

Just to throw in a monkey wrench here.

 

MG, where's the Bible verse that supports your claim that you learn from bad experience?

 

(Not that I'm arguing against you, but just to see if you have a religious foundation for the claim.

Besides, I think you learn more from bad choices and mistakes, than just a bad experience.

A bad experience only gives you an experience that was bad, and might make your or break you, but a mistake you made, you learn not to do again.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess I never thought to find a Bible verse that claims that -- although, it is a Biblical concept (see I Peter) that suffering results in a refinement of a person. Granted, this suffering isn't necessarily the same as some of the stuff specifically mentioned here. (Some people seek out suffering -- I think that is a bad idea)

 

I think learning from bad experiences is pretty common concept - obviously, gaining the knowledge in a less traumatic way is the preferred route.

 

The distinction you make between a mistake and being a victim is a reasonable observation and worth looking into in greater detail.

 

Speaking just as a person I feel that whatever I come up against that I can either take my lumps and learn something or take my lumps and just remain ignorant. That is just the challenge of living life -- we all are gonna have bad stuff happen to us (some of it really, really bad) and that is something largely out of our control. What we do with it IS within our control and that is why I focus on it.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

My mother killed herself because of her "valuable life lesson".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*huge wince* Oh man.

 

Gerbil, you say ANYTHING insensitive about THAT situation like you've said about mine, and I will textually tear you a LINE of assholes where your spine should be.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Apparently that has yet to happen as you continue to act like a dick...or was that part of your learning experience?  You know?  To be this best dick one can be

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And of course, those of us who don't see our horrible experiences as "valuable opportunities to learn" are ignorant.

 

Egocentrism, complete lack of compassion, rationalization, presumptuousness and stubbornness. That's the Gerbil throughout this entire fucking thread. He's about as Christlike as Paul. In fact, he's about as Christlike as Paul pre-conversion.

[Ouroboros]

I guess I never thought to find a Bible verse that claims that -- although, it is a Biblical concept (see I Peter) that suffering results in a refinement of a person.  Granted, this suffering isn't necessarily the same as some of the stuff specifically mentioned here.  (Some people seek out suffering -- I think that is a bad idea)

I always used to read 1 Peter as a reference to be tested in faith through temptations and not events in life per se. That's at least how I see the context of 1 Peter 1. I think it's about resisting sin and be strong in it, rather than experiencing and learning from bad experience.

 

I think learning from bad experiences is pretty common concept - obviously, gaining the knowledge in a less traumatic way is the preferred route.

It is, and I understand what you're saying, but also understand that some people have such a bad experience in life, that regardless of how you formulate your idea, it might not be easy for them to receive your words. Unfortunately the expression "Bad Experience" has a bit too wide definition to really apply to every situation. That's why I recommended the "Bad Choices" or "Mistakes". For instance, I wouldn't say that a "bad experience" in the form of me getting shot and die, would teach me anything. So "bad experience" is a bit to unclear and way to generic to be the foundation for an argument that it should lead to "learning" or "becoming stronger" of any sorts.

 

For instance, say that your family die, and you lose your job, your house, health and everything, just like Job in OT. You end up on the street, and you go crazy too after a brain aneurysm. What would you learn from that? If you even lose your mind, there's nothing for you to help you learn.

 

"Bad Experience" always lead to hurt feelings and broken emotions, and sometimes it can be the catalyst for the person to become something else, but it doesn't necessarily means such a change will happen. It's true we can learn from it, but trying to argue that everyone would, is stretching it too far. (And that is said from a person that does it all the time. Me. )

 

The distinction you make between a mistake and being a victim is a reasonable observation and worth looking into in greater detail.

See my argument above.

 

Speaking just as a person I feel that whatever I come up against that I can either take my lumps and learn something or take my lumps and just remain ignorant.  That is just the challenge of living life -- we all are gonna have bad stuff happen to us (some of it really, really bad) and that is something largely out of our control.  What we do with it IS within our control and that is why I focus on it.

That's why I consider my own inner person be the one that benefits most of overcoming a situation in life, instead of hiding behind an excuse that it was some "higher powers" will for it to happen. I rather grow, change and become a better person, than shrink and make excuses to why the Evil is out to get me. I realized I'm the one that is strong, or not, through a problem. When I know that all depends on me, I grow with the challenge. In essence, it's the foundation for my apostasy.

 

Beccas did learn from the experience, she became an apostate. She de-converted. That's what she learned. She realized the lies and deceit behind the religion that claimed love and care. So she learned, she was better off without it. (Correct me if I'm wrong B!)

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Beccas did learn from the experience, she became an apostate. She de-converted. That's what she learned. She realized the lies and deceit behind the religion that claimed love and care. So she learned, she was better off without it. (Correct me if I'm wrong B!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, it's quite true--the valuable lesson I learned was that Christianity is twaddle and helps no one, not even the most innocent. And as for its followers...see my quote.