Answered Prayer

[Ouroboros]

Oh, it's quite true--the valuable lesson I learned was that Christianity is twaddle and helps no one, not even the most innocent. And as for its followers...see my quote.

And it made you stronger, and more mature, no need for a crutch like Santa Claus or Jesus to help you in your life.

 

That at least was my experience.

 

Or put it this way, the miracle in my life, was when I discovered that I was blind and handicapped most of my life. I had reduced my ability to think and understand things, based on a fancy mythology from 2000 years ago, but all of a sudden I could see, and I could walk. My minds eyes were opened, and my logic and reason could finally move it's legs, and I was free. Free from the bondage and burden of religion.

 

I guess the miracle I got from God, was that I got free from God and his bondage!

[Dianka]

Cerise:

 

The most 'tragic' times in my life are my greatest badge of honor and the deepest source of joy.  While going through my hard times I really, really hated it but in the end the greatest accomplishments were during that time.

 

I wouldn't trade the adversity I've had for anything.

 

 

MAJOR BULLSHIT! (copying Cerise). I would trade the crap that happened to me for a fairly normal life. I have not learned anything, gained anything or found strength in my fucked up experiences! You are no source of inspiration by saying that your hard times made you stronger. Making such a statement is so condescending! What then, am I a failure because I didn't accomplish anything in response to MY tragedies?

[Dianka]

And I hope those scars never go away because they teach you to NOT EVER allow anyone to abuse you like that again.  It is awful you had to go through that; however, the scars are what keep it from happening again.

 

I've went looking for a new church (soon after my abuse) and I've been in churches for 5 minutes and known that it is where abuse occurs -- and I left, because my scars wouldn't let me forget to NEVER LET MY GUARD DOWN AGAIN.

 

I'm not glad you got hurt -- but I'm glad you got the scars and remember them.

IT will protect you.

 

Do you see what I'm saying?

You are wiser now -- hard wisdom, costly, yet very precious.

 

 

I have no fucking idea how you can justify any physical reminants of abuse? Does she need scars to know that abuse is wrong??? BSS KNEW abuse was bad, but she was trying to honor her parents.

 

What should she, or anyone else gain from their tragedies that they didn't already know? And what fucking lesson should she take away from being horribly abused? To never honor parents because they will abuse you?

 

And how can you claim that you will never let your guard down again? Acts of violence, manipulation, etc, can be forced upon ANYONE no matter how ready they are for it.

[Mad_Gerbil]

I always used to read 1 Peter as a reference to be tested in faith through temptations and not events in life per se. That's at least how I see the context of 1 Peter 1. I think it's about resisting sin and be strong in it, rather than experiencing and learning from bad experience.

 

You may be right... I've just starting studying it.

 

It is, and I understand what you're saying, but also understand that some people have such a bad experience in life, that regardless of how you formulate your idea, it might not be easy for them to receive your words.

 

Certainly.

However, I cannot allow people who insist on seeing things in the worst possible light to completely suppress my free speech because of some need to twist even the most benign comment into an irrational mess.

 

For instance, say that your family die, and you lose your job, your house, health and everything, just like Job in OT. You end up on the street, and you go crazy too after a brain aneurysm. What would you learn from that? If you even lose your mind, there's nothing for you to help you learn.

 

Obviously if you lose the ability to learn then the experience is something you won't learn from.....

 

"Bad Experience" always lead to hurt feelings and broken emotions, and sometimes it can be the catalyst for the person to become something else, but it doesn't necessarily means such a change will happen. It's true we can learn from it, but trying to argue that everyone would, is stretching it too far. (And that is said from a person that does it all the time. Me. )

 

I never claimed everyone does learn from it -- in fact, I admitted some people don't learn a thing. I'd encourage everyone to try and learn something from whatever may have happened but clearly not everyone choses to do so.

[Amethyst]

Oh, it's quite true--the valuable lesson I learned was that Christianity is twaddle and helps no one, not even the most innocent. And as for its followers...see my quote.

 

I also learned this lesson. Christianity is just another cult, nothing more. It seems to hurt more people than it helps.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

You may be right... I've just starting studying it.

Certainly.

However, I cannot allow people who insist on seeing things in the worst possible light to completely suppress my free speech because of some need to twist even the most benign comment into an irrational mess.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, yes, it's all my oversensitivity. Not your complete lack of any, your bloated ego and your massive case of self-righteousness poisoning.

 

Hey, guys! Am I being irrational, or has Mad Gerbil been a complete tactless, insensitive, self-righteous, and generally outrageous prick this entire thread? Clearly, he believes I am the one who is not in touch with consensual reality; I'm maintaining that he's so deep in his egocentric little Christ-sucking dreamworld that he doesn't even understand when he's being a complete and utter asshole.

 

Let's have a vote. Am I "just oversensitive", is Mad Gerbil being an unrepentant prick, or--third option--is he so deep into rationalizing abuse that you're starting to worry about the welfare of his family?

 

[Fweethawt]

-third option--is he so deep into rationalizing abuse that you're starting to worry about the welfare of his family?

I wouldn't worry about his family. He wouldn't ever knowingly do anything bad to them.

[All Gods Fail]

One thing I noticed is MG has taken the tack that of 'if a person sticks their hand in a fire' routine. What he doesn't seem to understand is that's not what abuse is - it's somebody else FORCING your hand in the fire.

 

And the 'lesson' we can take away from this? Abuse is evil and hurts people.

[mwc]

However, I cannot allow people who insist on seeing things in the worst possible light to completely suppress my free speech because of some need to twist even the most benign comment into an irrational mess.

You're absolutely right except for the part where it turns out your comment wasn't as benign as you had thought. If you had made your comments and no one reacted as some have then you would have simply had a debate on your hands. Unfortunately for you there were some negative reactions and you in turn add insult to injury. I don't think it was intentional but it happened nonetheless. I tried to give you the opening to properly explain what "lesson" Becca (and the others for that matter) should have taken away from their experiences instead of those things they expressed in their messages. You did not. You provided more generalities and platitudes. Finally, in the quote above, you simply call her, and her feelings, irrational. Maybe they are to you but when you were down and out (you've never provided any details so how down and out you were and the cause for it is unknown and a little suspect) would you have wanted to been insulted by being considered "irrational?" I doubt it. Becca, myself, and others, want our feelings taken seriously and since you've offered up a "solution" I am once again providing you with the opportunity to present it to us. I personally would love to hear in more detail (along the lines of what others in this thread have done) your personal testimony surrounding your fall and subsequent recovery. I would also love to hear you offer some real advice concerning Becca. Everyone knows that you don't know her and that you didn't experience anything she did but you seem to belittle her for not knowing how to "pull herself up by her bootstraps" (so to speak) which is unfair. If you have something more to offer than slogans like "just do it" then I know that I am all ears (eyes in this case).

 

I never claimed everyone does learn from it -- in fact, I admitted some people don't learn a thing.  I'd encourage everyone to try and learn something from whatever may have happened but clearly not everyone choses to do so.

You can learn equally well from both good and bad experiences. The bad ones just seem to stick out. I know I have had more good days in my life but the bad ones are far more memorable and I would imagine that the result of that is any "lesson" learned is exaggerated in importance. I can whip out many "bad" stories in my life and lessons learned from bad experiences. They come easy. The lessons that resulted from "good" things don't come as easy but they may be more important in many ways. When I finally realized that my family (unlike others I know, and on this board) loved me pretty much unconditionally and was there for me was a great lesson not built on pain. When I met my wife and she loved me for all my faults (and there's plenty of those trust me). These are "good" things that are mostly taken for granted but have been learned and integrated into my being whether or not I am truly aware of them. Good, bad and everything in between is learned and integrated.

 

I have "learned" that people consider "bad" things character builders and more valuable than "good" things. This view depends on how you define character. Bad things tend to force people inward. They become withdrawn, lack trust and fear people in general. Good things tend to do the opposite and bring people out of themselves. Which is the more valuable trait to you? Children are neat because, for the most part, they have this built in trust. Should I purposely hurt them to teach them trust can be bad? I've been lied to more times than I can count. I am wary of people since I tend to think they'll lie to me. This is not the person I care to be so I often force myself to trust people on the simple hope they'll be honest (don't think I'm guillable though since that's not what I mean). It comes back to bite me on the ass more than I like but I prefer the problem to be them lying to me than with me being closed off. According to you I'm not learning the lesson but from my point of view I see it as I am giving them a chance to show me who they are and if they're honorable or not. If I didn't then I don't think I'd like myself and that's more important to me.

 

To put the above into a little perspective. I loved God with all my heart and soul. There was absolutely no question in my mind that He was real and loved me in return. When I say absolutely no question I mean absolutely no question. Through all the troubles in my life (and the lives of friends and family) there is no time that I can think of that I ever even came close to questioning God or His reasons. Not a single time. All things happened for a reason, God's reason, and if I were to know he would tell me. He could do absolutely no wrong in my eyes. I knew that if, or when, the time came that I would die for God (not in a terrorist way mind you but a getting eaten by lions martyr sort of way since I thought another Christian persecution, ala Rome, was coming). I saw such a death as the most honorable death...to die in the service of God. I need you to understand this point since it is very, very important. God was not just some "thing" to me. He wasn't a way to be part of a group or meet people or anything like that. He was real and I loved Him more than anyone or anything else including myself (except maybe my wife...I like to think that I loved God more but I'd have to give the edge to her...maybe this was the beginning of the end from God's point of view). I asked Him for wisdom. I asked Him for knowledge. I asked Him for understanding. I asked Him to do with my life what He wanted and not what I wanted. I perceived every problem that I experienced as my fault and not His. I asked Him for guidance. I asked Him for a wife since I was horribly lonely. I honestly thought I was getting these things from God. Jump to the end of last year. I asked Him to help me preserve my faith. I asked Him to give me the smallest little indication that He was still with me. I asked Him to save this little lamb. I stopped simply asking and started begging. I begged and begged and begged. I would not, could not, give up. Some days I prayed so hard and sweat so much I was always surprised when I never found any blood (like Jesus in the garden). I tried one last time. I asked Him for anything. Just anything. I got silence. Horrible deafening silence. Not a twinge or a tickle. Nothing. It was over. God abandoned me. I was the little lamb that wouldn't be found by the good shepherd. I never made a single selfish request (that I can recall...although I'm sure when I was younger I must have). I understood god was not some sort of prayer "vending machine" and could answer with yes, no or maybe later except for the final prayer I made. The bible assured me that this one prayer would be answered with a big yes every single time. The bible told me that jesus was standing there knocking and all I had to do was invite him in and it would happen right then and there. No waiting. A promise was made and not kept. I was not angry or upset by any of this (until months later when my wife threw it back in my face). I was numb. I was confused. I was lost. My world had just collapsed. My life no longer seemed real. I just discovered that "god," at least the "god" I knew, simply did not exist. Surprisingly enough it didn't take too long to pick up the pieces and get on with life. I felt a lot better than I had in a long time (many years) not living in "god's" perfect shadow. The best thing is that I didn't become evil and fall into some depraved decadent lifestyle. I still live and act just like I did before. I just feel "free" for lack of a better word.

 

Still with me Mad_Gerbil? Now, tell me what lesson I was supposed to have learned? Tell me how my experience was a lesson to bring me closer to "god?" We both know this is the issue you've been skirting. The one I gave you a chance to present. Lessons are designed to make us stronger individuals and bring us closer to "god." I know exactly the rational behind this argument since I used to push the same view. In Becca's case she had real abusers in her parents. She should be grateful since that abuse made her strong enough to escape the abuse. We'll ignore the collateral damage We'll rationalize the circular reasoning to say her parents weren't real Christians and Becca should have realized that and got closer to God to know what a true relationship with Him is like. Instead she blamed the wrong person, the only one a child who is abused by authority figures, could ever trust. The one more powerful than her abusers. Certainly He will stand up for her? Wrong. He let her down. Either he sided with the abusers or he didn't exist. To be hated by "god" so much to deserve that kind of treatment is unthinkable. Fortunately, she came to the right decision. Biblegod does not exist. In her and my case we both had "god" as abusers. How can we possibly get closer to the thing that is abusing us? Speaking for myself I can see no obligation on my part, ever, to seek out a relationship with biblegod. I gave my all and got nothing. If biblegod exists he'll have to seek me out. He knows where I live and there's any open invite for him (and any other supernatural creature for that matter) to visit. To date I've had no visitors.

 

To everyone who made it this far I'm sorry if this message seems to wander around a bit. It's been one of those days. Also, talking about "god" in this way starts to piss me off (when I'm in this mode I can literally argue this stuff for hours...and have a number of times recently).

 

mwc

[mwc]

One thing I noticed is MG has taken the tack that of 'if a person sticks their hand in a fire' routine. What he doesn't seem to understand is that's not what abuse is - it's somebody else FORCING your hand in the fire.

 

And the 'lesson' we can take away from this? Abuse is evil and hurts people.

Yep. You nailed it.

 

God knew these people would grow up and become major abusers so they had to be abused to that they wouldn't do this. Too bad the cycle repeats more often than not. It also sucks if the lesson was for the abused but for the abuser.

 

mwc

[Mad_Gerbil]

You're absolutely right except for the part where it turns out your comment wasn't as benign as you had thought.  If you had made your comments and no one reacted as some have then you would have simply had a debate on your hands.  Unfortunately for you there were some negative reactions and you in turn add insult to injury.  I don't think it was intentional but it happened nonetheless.  I tried to give you the opening to properly explain what "lesson" Becca (and the others for that matter) should have taken away from their experiences instead of those things they expressed in their messages.  You did not.  You provided more generalities and platitudes.  Finally, in the quote above, you simply call her, and her feelings, irrational.

 

Whoa there.

 

First off, I'm stating general approaches to facing the ugliness in our lives because the route to handling difficult times is different for each person. You may not realize it but you've set a trap here -- if I do comment on a specific situation it will be claimed "You dont' know me, you arrogant pig.... you don't know me at all how dare you?" -- and rightfully so. If I refuse to comment on people and situations to which I don't have details then I'm portrayed as a coward.

 

I'm not interested in getting down to particulars here because that isn't appropriate on a public forum. When I point in a general direction it is for the sake of a general discussion and it can go no further in this forum. You'll see time and time again I'm sharing what worked in my life -- that is all.

 

Secondly, I didn't call anyone's feeling irrational. Being angry over past abuse is healthy to a certain extent. What I do call irrational is some of the outrageous strawmen that have been thrown up -- the gross mischaracterizations of what I've said. I don't address them because I agree with the posters -- if I actually believed what they claim I believe I would, in fact, be wrong.

 

I'm not going to defend positions I don't hold.

That is my approach to straw men, carticatures, and fabrications.

 

When posters begin having a conversation with me and not a carticature then I'll begin addressing what they say again.

 

 

Maybe they are to you but when you were down and out (you've never provided any details so how down and out you were and the cause for it is unknown and a little suspect) would you have wanted to been insulted by being considered "irrational?"  I doubt it.  Becca, myself, and others, want our feelings taken seriously and since you've offered up a "solution" I am once again providing you with the opportunity to present it to us. 

 

I've offered no solutions here.

I've discussed a path that worked for me -- a path well known ... that a person can allow a difficulty to consume them or they can grow through it.

 

I personally would love to hear in more detail (along the lines of what others in this thread have done) your personal testimony surrounding your fall and subsequent recovery.  I would also love to hear you offer some real advice concerning Becca.  Everyone knows that you don't know her and that you didn't experience anything she did but you seem to belittle her for not knowing how to "pull herself up by her bootstraps" (so to speak) which is unfair.

 

I've not once belittled Becca for not knowing how to pull herself up.

I've always described things as a process - a struggle -- and something that takes time. Anyone here disagree with that assessment?

 

According to you I'm not learning the lesson but from my point of view I see it as I am giving them a chance to show me who they are and if they're honorable or not.  If I didn't then I don't think I'd like myself and that's more important to me.

 

I never said a person couldn't learn from the good -- but then everyone already knows that.

 

Still with me Mad_Gerbil?  Now, tell me what lesson I was supposed to have learned?  Tell me how my experience was a lesson to bring me closer to "god?"  We both know this is the issue you've been skirting.  The one I gave you a chance to present.

 

WOW.

I enjoyed reading that -- not in a sick way but in an appreciative way --you were very clear, personal and to the point. Well done! As for the lesson -- I used to be able to trace everything G_d was doing which I think is a fundamentalist way of thinking. I no longer do that -- and while that looks like a cop out the fact is I don't understand nor could I guess why your situation went down the way it did.

 

It doesn't seem uncommon for the people on this board, though.

 

The balance between faith/reason - emotion/evidence is something not entirely clear to me (and an area where I think I need more balance). In my specific situation when I got too the point you describe I decided to believe anyways -- why I made that choice one way, and you the other way, I have no idea.

[Saviourmachine]

I'm going to encourage people to fight, learn, and grow -- and turn the experience (as much as possible) into something that makes them wiser, stronger, and better.  I'm gonna do that by claiming that I've been hurt as well -- and while there was negative fall out I'm begining to see I can turn the whole thing into a positive as well.

Let I explain how this looks like for somebody that had a very, very, very bad experience. A person that isn't able to see something positive in it.

 

Suppose that X sees some beauty in death. (I don't accuse X in that case of anything wrong; there are many people who do see that.) However, when X would say: "I see some beauty in death". And that on a forum where people post that had relatives that passed away recently... That would be very insensitive!

Take also into consideration that there are people who saw facets of death worser than X ever had a nightmare about, like e.g. mass graves. In that case it would be very rude to speak like this.

So, X would do very well not to share how X experienced it. Even if X was of the opinion that when others saw it the same way X saw it, it would relieve their pain.

 

Others could be very well of the opinion that X tried to reduce their experiences to mere esthetics. Or like you seem to do overhere, to reduce them to learning opportunities. That's how it looks for me. I hope I have made it a bit clear. Of course I make many "sociological mistakes" myself. I am studying an exact science: excuse! However I hope you realize why there is so lot of commotion about your words (again).

[Mad_Gerbil]

Let I explain how this looks like for somebody that had a very, very, very bad experience. A person that isn't able to see something positive in it.

 

Suppose that X sees some beauty in death. (I don't accuse X in that case of anything wrong; there are many people who do see that.) However, when X would say: "I see some beauty in death". And that on a forum where people post that had relatives that passed away recently... That would be very insensitive!

Take also into consideration that there are people who saw facets of death worser than X ever had a nightmare about, like e.g. mass graves. In that case it would be very rude to speak like this.

So, X would do very well not to share how X experienced it. Even if X was of the opinion that when others saw it the same way X saw it, it would relieve their pain.

 

Others could be very well of the opinion that X tried to reduce their experiences to mere esthetics. Or like you seem to do overhere, to reduce them to learning opportunities. That's how it looks for me. I hope I have made it a bit clear. Of course I make many "sociological mistakes" myself. I am studying an exact science: excuse! However I hope you realize why there is so lot of commotion about your words (again).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure, I can see that.

 

But you'll note we are on an exchristian forum designed to discuss issues and that all the participants voluntarially contribute to the thread. It isn't like I broke into a private "Survivors of Abuse" meeting and started offering up one line truisms for how to get over 2 decades of emmotional/physical abuse.

 

What I've said is appropriate for a general disccusion forum.

 

Perhaps if someone finds him/herself incapable of handling the discussion without being reduced to a ranting lunatic that person should seek out a forum designed to support him/her where he or she is at in the journey.

[Amethyst]

It isn't like I broke into a private "Survivors of Abuse" meeting and started offering up one line truisms for how to get over 2 decades of emmotional/physical abuse.

 

Last time I checked, this was a support group for people who survived the abuse that Christianity brings. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. You do NOT have the right to treat people who survived abuse like shit just because that abuse was caused by Christianity and you want to keep believing in your fairy tale.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Last time I checked, this was a support group for people who survived the abuse that Christianity brings.  If you don't like it, go somewhere else.  You do NOT have the right to treat people who survived abuse like shit just because that abuse was caused by Christianity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think this site provides a valuable service by giving people a place to vent; however, if you check the forum that you are posting in the rules make it very clear that debate (of a most free flowing kind) occurs here.

 

This site is to support people who need it -- but this forum at this site isn't for that kind of support.

 

If you've misread the intent of this forum then you've likely misread the intent of my posts. I wouldn't presume to provide counseling to vicitms of abuse online and in such an impersonal manner -- and certianly not on a debate forum.

[Checkmate]

Sure, I can see that.

 

But you'll note we are on an exchristian forum designed to discuss issues and that all the participants voluntarially contribute to the thread.  It isn't like I broke into a private "Survivors of Abuse" meeting and started offering up one line truisms for how to get over 2 decades of emmotional/physical abuse.

 

What I've said is appropriate for a general disccusion forum.

 

Perhaps if someone finds him/herself incapable of handling the discussion without being reduced to a ranting lunatic that person should seek out a forum designed to support him/her where he or she is at in the journey.

..............

"Many xian-visitors think this is a think-tank-for-religious-tolerance and think they'll get fair treatment, but they don't get that this is a place of recovery and healing. Something must be done to put it in their face from start, so they know."

................

Mad_Gerbil, consider yourself briefed.

 

This IS our "home". A sanctuary to escape from religious assholes, such as yourself. Many of us ARE recovering from "spiritual abuse", and we tend to react in knee-jerk fashion to "interlopers" such as yourself.

 

Contrary to what you mistakenly believe, this is MORE than just a place to debate and discuss. It IS a place of healing for us. This IS a "forum designed to support" us where we are on our journey. And YOU, MG, represent one of those unpleasant "bumps" on the road in this journey. And WE don't like it. Just as the sign says on the door, "EXPECT HEATED RESPONSES."

 

You're in "hostile territory". We even made it plainer by renaming the place "The Lion's Den".

 

You are amongst people who instinctively don't like you and HATE what you represent.

 

WHY are you so "incapable" of understanding why people are getting pissed at you? Why are you so incapable of comprehending what we do here? We belong. YOU do not.

 

Don't like it? Fuck off. Go away. Go post in "The Colosseum". We designed it just for whining Xians like yourself, who don't like getting chewed on. Do anything. Just quit trying to tell us how to react and behave. It's getting fucking old.

[Amethyst]

Um no, I haven't misread it. Perhaps you won't be banned for your actions, but you certainly are acting like a complete jerk.

 

The Open Forums of ExChristian.Net are open to all with the stipulations that they not be used for a spam medium or a place to verbally abuse Ex-Christians.

 

From the forum guidelines.

[crazy-tiger]

I think this site provides a valuable service by giving people a place to vent; however, if you check the forum that you are posting in the rules make it very clear that debate (of a most free flowing kind) occurs here.

Your point is?

This site is to support people who need it -- but this forum at this site isn't for that kind of support.

Who are you to say what kind of support is to be gained from here? Who are you to limit what support we can get? Who are you to dare to come in here, a place where you are barely tollerated, and start telling us what to do?

 

The ENTIRE SITE is here for our support... that includes the forums. If you think that there is any part of the forum that ISN'T there for our support, then allow me to correct your mistake.

If you've misread the intent of this forum then you've likely misread the intent of my posts.  I wouldn't presume to provide counseling to vicitms of abuse online and in such an impersonal manner -- and certianly not on a debate forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, YOU misread the intent of the forum... YOU are the one that is going against the intent of the site... YOU are the one who is putting the wrong intent in your posts...

 

What you are doing is CONTINUING THE ABUSE that some of us suffered.

[Mad_Gerbil]

What you are doing is CONTINUING THE ABUSE that some of us suffered.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This forum, the 'Lion's Den' advertises that it permits unregistered posting and open evangelism.

 

Why a person concerned about 'continuing the abuse' would hang out in the 'Lion's Den' is beyond my comprehension. I assume that this site has private forums where Xtians in need of other Xtian support can go and discuss wounds in private.

 

The 'Lion's Den' is for the two sides to face each other and dicuss, it isn't about sharing deep personal wounds and getting help for those wounds. That is why I've kept all my comments general.

 

Now if I'm wrong on the intent of the forum I invite the Site Owner to weigh in and clarify. I'll adjust my behavior accordingly.

[Mad_Gerbil]

WHY are you so "incapable" of understanding why people are getting pissed at you?  Why are you so incapable of comprehending what we do here?  We belong.  YOU do not.

 

Don't like it?  Fuck off.  Go away.  Go post in "The Colosseum".  We designed it just for whining Xians like yourself, who don't like getting chewed on.  Do anything.  Just quit trying to tell us how to react and behave.  It's getting fucking old.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've expressed no frustration over the name calling.

I read the forum description before posting here -- nothing I've seen has suprised me in the least.

 

I've not told you how to behave -- react any way you want.

[Mad_Gerbil]

What, you can't just be a decent and respectful human being without being told how?  You can't adjust your attitude accordingly without others having to point it out to you? Do you not have the Holy Spirit in you?  Or is the Holy Spirit an insensitive prick too?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What I cannot control is how others chose to characterize my attitude -- your misrepresentation of my attitude isn't something for which I take ownership.

 

That would be your problem, not mine.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Oh, I see, gotcha.  BTW...I haven't misreprested your attitude, your just to blind to see your faults.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That may be true.

 

However, I know enough about people to know that often we like to see faults in others that don't exist as a form of self defense. I've done this before myself.

 

So between you and me, which one of us is actually blind to his/her fault?

 

For the future, realize that I like to discuss ideas and I don't like to get personal unless it is something I can relate to on some level. I cannot get personal with rape victims because I've no idea what it is like to be physically raped. When I talk with a rape vicitm I can only address generalities and even over the internet that is a bit futile.

 

My coldness on the topc can seem... well, cold and uncaring but the fact is I don't have the ability/training/experience to go much beyond surface generalities.

[crazy-tiger]

This forum, the 'Lion's Den' advertises that it permits unregistered posting and open evangelism.

 

Why a person concerned about 'continuing the abuse' would hang out in the 'Lion's Den' is beyond my comprehension.

What? Are you know saying that it's BECCA'S fault that you are continuing the abuse?

 

Nice one... blame the abused, not the abuser.

I assume that this site has private forums where Xtians in need of other Xtian support can go and discuss wounds in private.

OI! We will not be forced into a small part of OUR refuge because of you!

The 'Lion's Den' is for the two sides to face each other and dicuss, it isn't about sharing deep personal wounds and getting help for those wounds.  That is why I've kept all my comments general.

Says who? Did you decide what it was for? Did you take part in the discussion over it? Did you take part in the vote?

No, you fucking didn't... so how can you dare to say what it is and isn't for?

 

So you know, the ENTIRE SITE is here for the purpose of supporting us... that would include sharing deep wounds and getting help for those wounds. If someone want's to share some deeply personal stuff, then they should be able to without so twat coming along and making insulting remarks about them.

Now if I'm wrong on the intent of the forum I invite the Site Owner to weigh in and clarify.  I'll adjust my behavior accordingly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read the Forum Guidelines... you might be in for a shock.

This forum exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind.

That's the WHOLE FUCKING FORUM! You are not encouraging anyone... you are just making it worse.

You are going against the entire intent of the forum and you're too stubborn to admit it.

[Mad_Gerbil]

You are cold because you want to "win" and have Becca say, "Oh, okay, you are right.  Perhaps I really need to look inside myself and learn from this pain."  You are cold because instead of learning to shut up, something that one needs no training for, you are more concerned with being right than you are about how badly YOU are making someone feel. 

 

Is being right worth trampling the feelings of another person?  Can't you just say your peace and shut up instead of sticking the knife in a little further?  Couldn't you apologize when Becca first made her feelings known to you?  Huh?  You could have said, "I'm sorry that happened to you, I cannot imagine the pain.  Taking my pain and making it positive helped a lot.  Perhaps you aren't ready to do that and I understand, afterall, I don't know what it is that you have gone through."  But no, you let your pride and ego get in the way and just make the wound a little more open.

 

Here I am, an evil wretched heathen (according to the bible) giving a person supposedly filled with the holy spirit of god in them, a lesson on how to be loving...go figure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just because a person has been abused doesn't mean I'm gonna allow them to misrepresent what I've said in an effort to 'win' a debate by pulling the victim card.

While I hate the idea of anyone being abused that abuse isn't a free ticket to mischaracterize what other people are saying and then demand apologies for something that was never said.

 

I'm sorry if someone else has been a victim, however, that doesn't excuse bile filled responses based entirely on the misreading of the written word and intent.

[Ouroboros]

Guys!

 

I have to step in and ask everyone to take a deep breath, count to 10 or whatever. This thread is getting a bit heated, and the hosting servers chips and circuits is starting to smell burnt.

 

First of all, it's okay that MG to post in this forum. The Lion's Den was for serious and non-serious discussions with Christians. And it will get heated, and we might hate each others guts, but the posters have the right to express their thoughts (how right or wrong it ever might be). This was the idea of the Den. For serious and moderated discussion, then we have the Coliseum. But this section, the Lion's Den is for the confrontational stuff. So please, no more "get out", or "leave us alone". He got the right to say what he want, even if we don't like it.

 

The site itself is for the healing and reconstruction of the de-convert, but we keep this section open for the wild and heated discussions with Christians. And we have to know that it might not always be things we want to hear, as long as posters keep within the guidelines.

 

Secondly, I see that most of the misunderstanding lies in the category that MG is Christian so we intentional or unintentional expect him to defend his faith with every thing he says, and I'm not sure if that's what he's doing here, but merely expressing his POV, regardless of religion.

 

Thirdly, some blame do fall on you MG, you have a tendency to write your posts in a manner that easily is misunderstood to be rude, and I don't know if that is what you want it to be or not. Personally I give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't intended your posts to be rude or derogative towards anyone in any way, but unfortunately it seems to me that many have taken it that way. So I encourage you to balance your words carefully to avoid words that creates emotional responses, or maybe just step to the sideline in this particular topic for a little while, to let the dust settle.

 

Hans (wishing a little bit more understanding from both sides)