ogilvy Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 She's an old lady who used to be like a mentor to me. We used to spend many hours discussing the faith. I moved to another town and lost contact with her except for occasional phone calls. She's old and not well, so I must not have told her when I deconverted. Today she phoned me and asked if I'd found a new church, so I told her I hadn't because I no longer believed. I hoped it wouldn't have an adverse effect on her health being told this, as I used to be almost as devout as she is. We were both fundamentalists. She told me that it's impossible for me to lose my salvation, and that I'm just having 'doubts' and to ask Jesus to reassure me. That would be good news, I guess, if I'm wrong and Christianity is true, that I'll still go to heaven. However I can't imagine it would be that easy! I figure that if God is cruel enough to have created hell, he would not be kind enough to let me, a non believer now, go to heaven. On the other hand, his actions seem to be pretty random, so maybe it could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirPhoenix Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 whether one can loose salvation is a topic that led me to stop believing. The way I see it, that topic is pretty fucking important. There are devout christians on both sides of the issue with references to back up what they believe. Both can't be right, but both are convinced. How could a god that is supposedly not the author of confusion, allow such diverse doctrines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogilvy Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 whether one can loose salvation is a topic that led me to stop believing. The way I see it, that topic is pretty fucking important. There are devout christians on both sides of the issue with references to back up what they believe. Both can't be right, but both are convinced. How could a god that is supposedly not the author of confusion, allow such diverse doctrines? I agree. The Bible says both things, you can, and you can't. Which leads me to think the Bible is not the infallible inspired word of God. At least she didn't tell me I had never been a true Christian in the first place. She knows I was as true a Christian as anyone could be. The conversation I had with her only confirmed that I'm right to have stopped believing, because the arguments didn't make sense, ie. 'God doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves there', and 'God didn't want robots, he wanted people to choose of their own free will'. My argument is that if such is the case, it would have been better if God had not created humans at all, and that it was cruel to create humans, knowing that most would go to hell. However, I didn't want to upset an old lady's firm faith which she's held for about 45 years, as there'd be no point in doing that, so I kept quiet about all my arguments. You're right, it doesn't make sense that God would give/allow such a confusing message as the Bible contains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted January 30, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 30, 2011 whether one can loose salvation is a topic that led me to stop believing. The way I see it, that topic is pretty fucking important. There are devout christians on both sides of the issue with references to back up what they believe. Both can't be right, but both are convinced. How could a god that is supposedly not the author of confusion, allow such diverse doctrines? I agree. The Bible says both things, you can, and you can't. Which leads me to think the Bible is not the infallible inspired word of God. At least she didn't tell me I had never been a true Christian in the first place. She knows I was as true a Christian as anyone could be. The conversation I had with her only confirmed that I'm right to have stopped believing, because the arguments didn't make sense, ie. 'God doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves there', and 'God didn't want robots, he wanted people to choose of their own free will'. My argument is that if such is the case, it would have been better if God had not created humans at all, and that it was cruel to create humans, knowing that most would go to hell. However, I didn't want to upset an old lady's firm faith which she's held for about 45 years, as there'd be no point in doing that, so I kept quiet about all my arguments. You're right, it doesn't make sense that God would give/allow such a confusing message as the Bible contains. Most Christians would believe that Satan has us 'blinded' - But why would a loving, caring god not have control over this?? Geeeez - I get so mad at this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeryBerry Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 She's an old lady who used to be like a mentor to me. We used to spend many hours discussing the faith. I moved to another town and lost contact with her except for occasional phone calls. She's old and not well, so I must not have told her when I deconverted. Today she phoned me and asked if I'd found a new church, so I told her I hadn't because I no longer believed. I hoped it wouldn't have an adverse effect on her health being told this, as I used to be almost as devout as she is. We were both fundamentalists. She told me that it's impossible for me to lose my salvation, and that I'm just having 'doubts' and to ask Jesus to reassure me. That would be good news, I guess, if I'm wrong and Christianity is true, that I'll still go to heaven. However I can't imagine it would be that easy! I figure that if God is cruel enough to have created hell, he would not be kind enough to let me, a non believer now, go to heaven. On the other hand, his actions seem to be pretty random, so maybe it could happen. It sounds like your former mentor believes in the doctrine that teaches "Once saved, always saved," which the majority of the Christians I know disagree with. At least, she is not worried about you burning in hell for rejecting Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeryBerry Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 whether one can loose salvation is a topic that led me to stop believing. The way I see it, that topic is pretty fucking important. There are devout christians on both sides of the issue with references to back up what they believe. Both can't be right, but both are convinced. How could a god that is supposedly not the author of confusion, allow such diverse doctrines? I agree. The Bible says both things, you can, and you can't. Which leads me to think the Bible is not the infallible inspired word of God. At least she didn't tell me I had never been a true Christian in the first place. She knows I was as true a Christian as anyone could be. The conversation I had with her only confirmed that I'm right to have stopped believing, because the arguments didn't make sense, ie. 'God doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves there', and 'God didn't want robots, he wanted people to choose of their own free will'. My argument is that if such is the case, it would have been better if God had not created humans at all, and that it was cruel to create humans, knowing that most would go to hell. However, I didn't want to upset an old lady's firm faith which she's held for about 45 years, as there'd be no point in doing that, so I kept quiet about all my arguments. You're right, it doesn't make sense that God would give/allow such a confusing message as the Bible contains. Most Christians would believe that Satan has us 'blinded' - But why would a loving, caring god not have control over this?? Geeeez - I get so mad at this! My mother told me two weeks ago that Satan has sent demons to blind me so that I could turn my back on Christ. When I was a devout Christian, I used to have dreams in which demons would attack me or try to kill me. However, since I renounced Christianity, the nightmares stopped. My mom claims that Satan has no reason to attack me since I agree with him now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom from Guilt Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Speaking of the enemy Margee-- My mother and i had a conversation this week about my trip to church. She thought the enemy "planned" that sermon so that I would continue to doubt and be mad at church. I just told her that I didn't believe in "the enemy" but it makes me mad that she thinks "the enemy" has that much power that he can PLAN sermons and that he wields that much power with the pastor. It made me wonder if satan is that powerful, why couldn't God have planned the whole service "to win me back"? He's more powerful than satan, right? The whole thing is stupid and I agree with the you PIppa, if God KNEW that the majority of humanity would ROAST forever, he should NOT have made us. It really makes him out to be a dick and I don't see why more people can't see that. I guess they are just too caught up in being "the chosen ones" to care. freedom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ireckinso Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Speaking of the enemy Margee-- My mother and i had a conversation this week about my trip to church. She thought the enemy "planned" that sermon so that I would continue to doubt and be mad at church. I just told her that I didn't believe in "the enemy" but it makes me mad that she thinks "the enemy" has that much power that he can PLAN sermons and that he wields that much power with the pastor. It made me wonder if satan is that powerful, why couldn't God have planned the whole service "to win me back"? He's more powerful than satan, right? The whole thing is stupid and I agree with the you PIppa, if God KNEW that the majority of humanity would ROAST forever, he should NOT have made us. It really makes him out to be a dick and I don't see why more people can't see that. I guess they are just too caught up in being "the chosen ones" to care. freedom Agreed! From the way xtians speak, Satan is more powerful than God. He has so much control over us yet god can stop that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ireckinso Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 whether one can loose salvation is a topic that led me to stop believing. The way I see it, that topic is pretty fucking important. There are devout christians on both sides of the issue with references to back up what they believe. Both can't be right, but both are convinced. How could a god that is supposedly not the author of confusion, allow such diverse doctrines? I agree. The Bible says both things, you can, and you can't. Which leads me to think the Bible is not the infallible inspired word of God. At least she didn't tell me I had never been a true Christian in the first place. She knows I was as true a Christian as anyone could be. The conversation I had with her only confirmed that I'm right to have stopped believing, because the arguments didn't make sense, ie. 'God doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves there', and 'God didn't want robots, he wanted people to choose of their own free will'. My argument is that if such is the case, it would have been better if God had not created humans at all, and that it was cruel to create humans, knowing that most would go to hell. However, I didn't want to upset an old lady's firm faith which she's held for about 45 years, as there'd be no point in doing that, so I kept quiet about all my arguments. You're right, it doesn't make sense that God would give/allow such a confusing message as the Bible contains. I applaud your candid behavior as to not upsetting your mentor. That to me shows respect for her and her beliefs. If she is short on years a debate about her convictions at this point would probably not be good for her health. Its funny how athiests get labeled as haters, yet we show more compassion and respect for those who don't share our views than christians do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franciscan Monkey Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 whether one can loose salvation is a topic that led me to stop believing. The way I see it, that topic is pretty fucking important. There are devout christians on both sides of the issue with references to back up what they believe. Both can't be right, but both are convinced. How could a god that is supposedly not the author of confusion, allow such diverse doctrines? I agree. The Bible says both things, you can, and you can't. Which leads me to think the Bible is not the infallible inspired word of God. At least she didn't tell me I had never been a true Christian in the first place. She knows I was as true a Christian as anyone could be. The conversation I had with her only confirmed that I'm right to have stopped believing, because the arguments didn't make sense, ie. 'God doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves there', and 'God didn't want robots, he wanted people to choose of their own free will'. My argument is that if such is the case, it would have been better if God had not created humans at all, and that it was cruel to create humans, knowing that most would go to hell. However, I didn't want to upset an old lady's firm faith which she's held for about 45 years, as there'd be no point in doing that, so I kept quiet about all my arguments. You're right, it doesn't make sense that God would give/allow such a confusing message as the Bible contains. When I was a newly-minted deconvert, a friend of mine was emailing me as to my reasons for leaving Christianity. One of the things he wrote was: "I don't know exactly what Hebrews 6:4 means but the words scare me." (Hebrews 6:4-6 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.) I replied: "I know this will sound rather sacrilegious, but if the words scare you, yet you don't know exactly what they mean, perhaps God did a poor job communicating His message." To me, one of the proofs that there is no god is that fact that he would have to be amazingly incompetent if he did exist, which doesn't fit the definition of god. Respectfully, Franciscan Monkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovemybrain Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 whether one can loose salvation is a topic that led me to stop believing. The way I see it, that topic is pretty fucking important. There are devout christians on both sides of the issue with references to back up what they believe. Both can't be right, but both are convinced. How could a god that is supposedly not the author of confusion, allow such diverse doctrines? EXACTLY! But when I would talk to xians about how they disagree on what the bible even says, they try to make it sound like it's only unimportant little details like head-covering etc. that they don't agree on. No. It's the important stuff. What salvation is, how to obtain it, keep it, how to please god, etc. If there were a god who wanted something specific of us, he'd have told all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 At least she didn't tell me I had never been a true Christian in the first place. She knows I was as true a Christian as anyone could be. I don't know if there's anything to this, but I seem much less likely to be accused of never having been a True ChristianTM by those few xians who know me and have talked extensively about my deconversion than by those to whom I am a faceless heathen, e.g., one of the many apostates on this site. I think it's a harder accusation to make when they actually know you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosendarkness Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 It sounds like your former mentor believes in the doctrine that teaches "Once saved, always saved," which the majority of the Christians I know disagree with. At least, she is not worried about you burning in hell for rejecting Christianity. At least she's got that going for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Speaking of the enemy Margee-- My mother and i had a conversation this week about my trip to church. She thought the enemy "planned" that sermon so that I would continue to doubt and be mad at church. I just told her that I didn't believe in "the enemy" but it makes me mad that she thinks "the enemy" has that much power that he can PLAN sermons and that he wields that much power with the pastor. It made me wonder if satan is that powerful, why couldn't God have planned the whole service "to win me back"? He's more powerful than satan, right? The whole thing is stupid and I agree with the you PIppa, if God KNEW that the majority of humanity would ROAST forever, he should NOT have made us. It really makes him out to be a dick and I don't see why more people can't see that. I guess they are just too caught up in being "the chosen ones" to care. freedom PA-REEACH it girl! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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