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Top Ten Reasons Not To Fear Biblical End-times Scenarios

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The topic of being fearful of end-time scenarios is a recurring theme on this site. It is an understandable fear given the intensity with which so many Christians believe in it all. The great success of the “Left Behind” series is a testament to how pervasive such thinking is within our society.

 

End-times theology invokes almost all elements of Christian theology and does so in a very frightening manner. It posits that god can see into the future and that he enlisted prophets to warn others about future events. It promises via the rapture that Christians will not be involved in the carnage that is to come, but woe to those whose timing in accepting Jesus is not perfect because they will be “left behind” to face almost unutterable horror. It transforms Jesus from a forgiving and loving son of god to the vengeful judge who through the simple act of breaking seven seals unleashes terrible destruction and painful deaths. It pits good against evil with Satan taking an active role in deceiving people. Perhaps worst of all is that the simple mistake of taking the “mark of the beast” no matter whether all one was trying to do was to feed one’s children will result in an eternity in hell along with those same children.

 

Having said all of that, I want to make it clear that none of it is true. And I mean none of it. The way I want to try to help those who need help in this area is to give the top ten reasons why I am convinced with 100% certainty that none of it is true. There are, of course, reasons in addition to what I will list, but these are mine.

 

By starting this thread, I am inviting those of you who would like to discuss any of it in more detail to post your thoughts, concerns, and questions. Perhaps together we can make some progress in coming to the truth and helping to convince you of the truth that just might help set you free from this real fear you may be feeling.

 

I will post the Top Ten Reasons Not to Fear Biblical End-Times Scenarios part by part since I do not have the time to write it all out and post it all at once. I will begin by posting Reasons 10, 9, and 8. I will post others later as I am able.

 

Reason Number 10.

 

Even all Christians do not accept the interpretation of Revelation, Daniel and other books of the Bible which end-timers use to spread their message of fear.

 

When you really start looking into what the end-timers say, you will find that even among Christians there is vehement disagreement. There is a debate among end-timers on whether there is a pre-wrath rapture, a post-wrath rapture, or whether there is a rapture at all. They cannot agree on issues such as whether Jesus’ alleged prophecy in Matthew 24 refers to our times or, as some Christians say, whether it dealt only with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE by the Romans. And not all Christians agree that Revelation deals with future events at all. Some Christian scholars will admit that the Book of Revelation was meant as an encouragement to first century Christians who were being persecuted and that the infamous Mark of the Beast, 666, was Caesar Nero.

 

What many end-time preachers like to make you think is that they somehow have unraveled the mystery of end-time events and that god or the holy spirit has allowed them to interpret Revelation, Daniel and other apocalyptic books in the light of our times. But take the time to listen to these guys and listen very closely. I really mean this. Listen to the likes of Hal Lindsey, Grant Jefferies, and others. You will find them disagreeing with each other all the time. The very fact that Christians do not agree across the board is solid evidence that no god has provided any information to anyone about end-times issues. Because if god truly intended to warn us about something so horrible as what the end-timers claim is coming, doesn’t it make sense that he would do it in a way that would be unambiguous?

 

Reason Number 9.

 

There are certain passages in Revelation which are simply physically impossible to happen in reality.

 

Quoted below is my favorite example of how some of what is said in Revelation is simply impossible to happen.

 

13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

 

Revelation 9:13-16.

 

In case you need help with the math, the number of mounted troops is 200,000,000. End-timers love to point to China and say how China today boasts of an army of 200,000,000 and thus uses that as one of the signs that the end is near. The scenario they like to portray is that everybody is ready for this great battle of Armageddon and that, among the other armies, this Chinese Army of 200,000,000 comes onto the field of battle and then Jesus halts the whole thing and comes down in judgment.

 

I have actually seen Armageddon. In 1979, my Navy ship went to Israel and I went on a tour. One of the places that our tour guide took us was to Armageddon. Yes, it is an actual place in Israel. It is a piece of land surrounded by mountains with a pass through the mountains to the flat area. I can tell you from my personal experience that the place could not hold 200,000,000 soldiers.

 

But set aside for a moment the impossibility of 200,000,000 soldiers plus the other armies to assemble there and just think about deploying 200,000,000 soldiers. That is the equivalent of two-thirds of the population of the entire United States. Anyone who has been involved in hurricane evacuations knows what it is like just to get several hundred thousand people out of a city. It is terribly difficult. It would be impossible to equip, train, and then deploy the equivalent of two-thirds of the population of the entire United States onto a battlefield.

 

Besides all of that, China does not boast an army of 200,000,000. It’s a sizable army, several million, but nowhere near 200,000,000. Here’s an article to read:

 

http://www.defpro.com/news/details/9524/

 

Reason Number 8.

 

The alleged prophecies are so vague as to be open to endless interpretation and re-interpretation.

 

Think about this carefully. If god really wanted to warn you about upcoming end-time events, wouldn’t he do so in a way you and everyone else would have no reasonable doubts about the truth? Of course he would if he were just. So let’s take a look at a few examples of what is supposed to act as a warning to you that we are living in the end-times:

 

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

Matthew 24:3-14

 

Read this passage very carefully. It is one that end-timers love to point to in an effort to convince people that we are living in the end-times and that Jesus is about to return. But each and every one of these so-called signs of the times is so vague as to apply to any time in the last two thousand years, with one possible exception which I will address separately. Saying there will be wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, and false Messiahs is saying nothing. I could make those predictions for this decade and I would be absolutely correct. I know this with virtual certainty and the reason I know it is that the past is my guide. Now show me something written in the year 90 that says specifically that Germany will invade Poland in 1939 thus leading to a world war in which millions will be killed and you have my attention. But something this general and vague means nothing.

 

It is verse 14 which is the only verse that is arguably not vague. “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” The churches I am familiar with use this verse as an incentive to evangelize all over the world as a way to usher in the return of Jesus. To them it is a simple formula: Preach the gospel all over the world and Jesus returns.

 

Even though I said that verse 14 was not vague, you should read it carefully to make sure you understand it. It can be broken down as follows:

 

1. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations…

 

2. …and then the end will come.

 

When viewed as I have broken it down, we can see the true meaning of the words. The first part which says, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations….” is what must happen before the second part can happen, “…and then the end will come.” However, nowhere in the verse are we told how long after the gospel is preached in the whole world that the end will come. So the gospel could be preached all over the world to satisfy the first part of Matthew 24:14 and thousands of years could pass before the end will come. I believe that this is a fair reading of the passage. And in a fair reading, it has no predictive value whatsoever. So even if some preacher proclaims that the gospel has been presented to the entire world, that means nothing according to a fair reading of Matthew 24:14.

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However, nowhere in the verse are we told how long after the gospel is preached in the whole world that the end will come. So the gospel could be preached all over the world to satisfy the first part of Matthew 24:14 and thousands of years could pass before the end will come. I believe that this is a fair reading of the passage.

 

Not only is that a fair reading, but once when I pointed out to a Xian that certain (so-called) prophecies had not been fulfilled, she said that the world was not over yet. So obviously, it's very open ended and anything goes.

 

A bajillion years ago when I read Hal Lindsey's book about the end times, it scared the bejesus out of me. Now, it's laughable.

 

I like how you're breaking this down.

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Great thread idea and very solid points. I'm anxious to see the rest of your list. ;)

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Great thread idea and very solid points. I'm anxious to see the rest of your list. ;)

 

+1 goodjob.gif

 

 

 

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Very well presented. When you're don with the list I'd love to link to it on Facebook or elsewhere if that is permitted. Do you have a blog?

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Just a bit on the Euphrates and the alleged 200M soldiers on horsies.

 

Well even if this remotely plausible, the army engineers are pretty good at deploying pontoon bridges to transverse a river. Plus horses can swim anyway.

 

Adding further logic into the mix, where in the world are there 200M horses gathered together in one place? This is almost as laughable as the ark story as IIRC there are not that many horsies worldwide let alone China where horsies in these numbers would be cultivated for food before being used for any military purposes. Add to that the logistics of feeding the horsies and cleaning up the shitpiles they would leave behind. Imagine the poor fuckers at the back of the column and how high the shitpile would be?

 

The YEC endtime woo woos will of course deflect with not to be taken literally argument yet all the rest is "true".

 

The locusts are of course Apache helicopters because they claim John did not have the vocabulary to describe what he was seeing, that is true for anyone that ingests hallucinogens.

 

Bear in mind, China and Russia have seriously scary missiles. The Ruskies have one that travels at Mach 4 and would not even need a warhead to sink one one the US Carriers, the kinetic energy alone would do the job, Oh and the missile flies at about 10 feet above the ground/water. These are already in the gulf hence the USA does not send their prized carriers into the Med. sea. anywhere near Israel.

 

Lastly, what issues does China have in the first place with Israel?

 

China is more concerned with the US than with a piss willy country like Israel.

 

Israel's richest natural resource is:

 

SAND

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Nice list! According to my dad Jesus is overdue to come back. I think he wants to witness the rapture.

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Good feedback and some really good points being made by others.

 

once when I pointed out to a Xian that certain (so-called) prophecies had not been fulfilled, she said that the world was not over yet. So obviously, it's very open ended and anything goes.

 

Yes, this is a very difficult problem for those suffering through the fears of end-times issues. Somebody somewhere can come back in some way to cast doubts in the mind of the seeker of truth who wants to be freed from the fears. The thing to remember is that the very fact that it can all be twisted to fit practically anything one wants to say is solid evidence that none of it is truly about end-times events. If what is supposedly said in Revelation, Daniel and other passages in the Bible can be interpreted in so many different ways to fit so many preconceived end-time scenarios, then it says nothing at all. And, in terms of end-times, it does, in fact, say nothing at all.

 

Great thread idea and very solid points. I'm anxious to see the rest of your list. ;)

 

+1 goodjob.gif

 

Thanks, Citsonga and Par. I'll continue working on it as time permits. I think I'll have all my points posted with a week or two.

 

Very well presented. When you're don with the list I'd love to link to it on Facebook or elsewhere if that is permitted. Do you have a blog?

 

I have no problem whatsoever with this thread being linked wherever you or anyone else wants to link it. As far as the rules of ExC on the issue of linking, I don't know what those rules are. I do not have a blog.

 

Adding further logic into the mix, where in the world are there 200M horses gathered together in one place? This is almost as laughable as the ark story as IIRC there are not that many horsies worldwide let alone China where horsies in these numbers would be cultivated for food before being used for any military purposes. Add to that the logistics of feeding the horsies and cleaning up the shitpiles they would leave behind. Imagine the poor fuckers at the back of the column and how high the shitpile would be?

 

I like this. I guess we could call it, "The Argument from Horse Doo," or, perhaps, "How do you doo," or, even, "Don't doo that to me." Well done.

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If Christians expect to be raptured up to the safety of heaven, why would they fear the end times tribulations. They should be hoping that the whole thing starts as soon as possible.

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Thanks so much for taking the time to post these issues. As one who deals with these fears, I am always grateful when someone helps me to reason through the possible scenarios and find a way for these end-time prophecies to be readdressed in a different way. I really look forward to future posts!

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Reason Number 7.

 

You have been conditioned to read Revelation, Daniel and other passages from a modern perspective while ignoring what the author was really trying to say.

 

We are all plagued with looking at history from our modern perspective and with our modern education, sensibilities, and morality. But that is not the way to understand a historical event. The way to understand such events, and I mean to really understand them, is to do your best to get into the minds of those who were involved in those historical events and see things the way they saw them.

 

I’ll give you a simple example. Let’s assume that a modern person owns a vintage 1958 Cadillac. One day while this person is driving the Cadillac, she is involved in a head-on collision with another more modern car. Let’s further assume that the driver of the 1958 Cadillac is seriously injured and brings a lawsuit against the other driver and against GM for negligently manufacturing an unsafe car. If we view the lawsuit against GM from a purely modern perspective, we would quickly conclude that the car was, in fact, not safe and the driver of the 1958 Cadillac should win. After all, there were no airbags installed in that vintage Cadillac and airbags could very well have prevented the driver from the injuries he or she received.

 

Would this be a fair conclusion to make? The answer is no and the reason is that what we really have to do is to go back in time to 1958 and examine the Cadillac from the perspective of 1958. Airbags had not even been invented then so GM could not be negligent for not including them in that car.

 

When we read Revelation, Daniel and other passages which we think are prophecies that are being fulfilled before our very eyes, we are looking at a 1958 Cadillac with modern eyes. To really understand these writings, we need to go back in time to when they were written and to try to see the world the way the authors saw it.

 

The way you have been conditioned to read these writings, and you may not even realize it, is by a simple formula. That formula is as follows:

 

1. God is all knowing and that includes all future events which he wants to share with us as a warning.

 

2. The authors of these “prophetic” works were supernaturally transported to our modern world and shown things that they did not understand.

 

3. They had a limited vocabulary and point of reference so their descriptions of what they saw could not be accurate. After all, how could someone from the first century CE possibly understand jet planes, computers, cell phones, satellites and all the rest? They would have to describe such things from their points of reference. Thus a jet plane becomes an eagle, chips in one’s right hand or forehead becomes a “mark” which allows buying and selling, etc.

 

This formula is aided by certain passages from Daniel which are often pointed to in support for reading these “prophetic” works from a modern perspective. I have bolded the verses that I particularly want you to read, but have quoted the entire chapter to put those verses in context.

 

1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”

7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”

9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

 

Daniel 2.

 

What modern day end-timers want you to believe is that the confusion of the “prophets” who saw modern day events and who subsequently described those events was effectively a code and the only ones who could break that code are us. And the reason only we can understand what is being written is because god hid it from all other generations but he knew that we, the generation to which these events would happen, would understand what was written as no other generation could.

 

It makes for a nice tidy story and marks us as a special people who have been granted the privilege of understanding something that lay hidden in plain view until we came along with our ability to understand it as no other generation could.

 

But let’s really get down to it. I will use two examples to illustrate how this false thinking pervades end-time thinking and how it is the wrong way to read these so-called “prophetic” passages. My first example is the story of the two witnesses.

 

1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[a] 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

 

Revelation 11:1-14.

 

What the end-timers like to emphasize is how verses 8 through 10 describes everyone on earth gazing at the dead bodies of these two witnesses and rejoicing over their deaths. They will gleefully say that until television and satellites were invented it would have been impossible for everyone on earth to have seen these events. Therefore, they say, we have solid evidence that this message was intended for us and for no other generation. But let’s look closely at this passage.

 

The passage does not describe the entire population of the earth gazing on the slain bodies of these witnesses. Verse nine says, “For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.” (Emphasis mine). Do you get it? It says “some” not “all.”

 

Now travel back in time to when John of Patmos wrote these words. To people in the Roman Empire the entire world was the Roman Empire. And at that time Rome had an amazing set of roads which allowed extensive travel within the Empire. It was not unusual at all for a person of the time to see many foreigners walking the streets of a Roman city. So for John of Patmos, it was nothing unusual to believe that some people from all over the then known world could see these two witnesses lying dead in the square. What is more, because of the extensive set of roads and travel, news of the event could reach all inhabitants of the world (meaning, the Roman Empire). Television plays absolutely no part in understanding this passage because it is completely understandable by viewing it from John of Patmos’s proper historical perspective.

 

Besides all of what I have already said, if television were being described, then how would John of Patmos have known that people from all over the earth were watching all of this? The only way would have been for him to have been shown at least a sampling of families from each and every country in our modern world glued to their televisions and watching these events. Where is that description?

 

What is more, there would have to have been reporters present with cameras and their vans with dishes on top to transmit what they were capturing on their cameras to the satellites for subsequent transmission all over the world. Where is that description?

 

Even if there were no actual reporters present, at the very least from our modern perspective, there would have to have been people present with home camcorders or cell phones recording the events for subsequent viewing on network television as we so often see today. Where are these descriptions?

 

My second example is the Mark of the Beast.

 

11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

 

Revelation 13:11-17.

 

What I want to emphasize in the above passage is the requirement that everyone receive a mark and that without the mark they could not buy or sell. What the end-timers want you to believe is that it is only in our modern world that we have the wherewithal actually to implement measures as described in this passage. We have microchips and computers and we are going more and more to electronic purchasing with fewer and fewer cash transactions actually taking place. Their argument continues that once everything is in place and controlled by some master computer which in turn is controlled by the anti-Christ, it will be a simple matter to forbid any engagement in commerce without the microchip. Again, according to their false view, here we have something that only we could possibly understand which proves that this is a divine revelation to special us.

 

Now, step back and use your common sense. If what John of Patmos saw was some form of microchip technology being used how would he know it was even present on any individual? Such microchips would be placed under the skin as they are today in some pets for identification should they become lost. If this were done on a human being, just by looking at that person no one could possibly know they had been microchipped. There would be no mark of any kind visible to anyone. So John of Patmos could not have “seen” any mark if it were a microchip. What he would have to have seen was a microchip in the person’s right hand or on the forehead. But that is impossible. At the very least he would have to have been shown a microchip being implanted under the skin of an individual. But, again, where is the description of that procedure?

 

Let’s go back in time and view what is written here from John of Patmos’s perspective. Again, the world to him was the Roman Empire and it was Rome that controlled everything, including an extensive system of taxation and regulation. In John of Patmos’s mind, therefore, if one displeased Rome they could effectively be left out of the economic community. No microchips or computers needed at all. Just being black balled by local Roman officials.

 

So, how about this mark that John of Patmos describes? What did that mean to him? To get this answer, let’s go to the Bible itself and specifically the story of Cain. As you will recall, Cain was the son of Adam and Eve and he had a brother named Abel. Cain killed Abel. As punishment, god sent Cain away but protected Cain in a very special way.

 

10 The LORD said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”

13 Cain said to the LORD, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

15 But the LORD said to him, “Not so[e]; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the LORD’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden.

 

Genesis 4:10-16.

 

God put a mark on Cain which mark was to protect him from being killed by anyone else. That mark showed a form of ownership or special protection. That was the meaning of a mark to John of Patmos. But John of Patmos uses this concept metaphorically and inversely. Rather than being a protective mark, this metaphorical mark showed ownership by the Roman Empire. The mark in Revelation is synonymous with engaging in Roman commerce and to John of Patmos engaging in Roman commerce was the same as being owned by the Romans. So this was John of Patmos’s call to his fellow Christians of the time to separate themselves from Rome lest they be owned by this monster which was persecuting them at the time. Again, we need not invoke microchips or computers to understand this passage from a proper historical perspective.

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Good stuff, keep it coming. I really like how you lay things out and address specifics as well as providing examples. I will be checking into this post often, probably even after it has long closed to reread what you have been saying, so your hard work is much appreciated from my end!

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Good stuff, keep it coming. I really like how you lay things out and address specifics as well as providing examples. I will be checking into this post often, probably even after it has long closed to reread what you have been saying, so your hard work is much appreciated from my end!

 

Thanks. I hope this and subsequent posts will be helpful to you and others who are suffering from your end-time concerns and fears.

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Good stuff, keep it coming. I really like how you lay things out and address specifics as well as providing examples. I will be checking into this post often, probably even after it has long closed to reread what you have been saying, so your hard work is much appreciated from my end!

 

 

I............. '2nd that motion'!

Thank you so much Overcame for the time you are spending on this. I have heard over the years all the arguments about 'Revelation' and I could never be involved with them because I really haven't understood this last book anyway.

 

I did understand enough to question why a loving god would have to put his own world that he created through so much blood and war? As many years that I was in the 'fundi' church - These questions were always just under my skin, but I continued to push them aside.

 

In my church, people would get so excited talking about the end times. It always amazed me that with each disaster that was on the news they would get almost happy. I used to always bring up the fact that 1,000's of people were being killed and taken away from their families?? None of it made sense to me.

 

I will continue to read all of your posts and try to understand. I wish you had a classroom somewhere...................:grin:

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Good stuff, keep it coming. I really like how you lay things out and address specifics as well as providing examples. I will be checking into this post often, probably even after it has long closed to reread what you have been saying, so your hard work is much appreciated from my end!

 

 

I............. '2nd that motion'!

Thank you so much Overcame for the time you are spending on this. I have heard over the years all the arguments about 'Revelation' and I could never be involved with them because I really haven't understood this last book anyway.

 

I did understand enough to question why a loving god would have to put his own world that he created through so much blood and war? As many years that I was in the 'fundi' church - These questions were always just under my skin, but I continued to push them aside.

 

In my church, people would get so excited talking about the end times. It always amazed me that with each disaster that was on the news they would get almost happy. I used to always bring up the fact that 1,000's of people were being killed and taken away from their families?? None of it made sense to me.

 

I will continue to read all of your posts and try to understand. I wish you had a classroom somewhere...................:grin:

 

You're welcome, Margee. I don't claim to understand everything about "end-times" issues nor do I claim that I have the definitive interpretation of the scriptures at issuse. But I do believe that I have offered interpretations that are more plausible than what the end-timers offer.

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A bit more on Daniel's "missing" generation.

 

This is used by the end ov daze folk to tie in to the preemptive events leading to the return of jeebus.

 

Everything according to the woo woos was fulfilled until the time of jeebus when for some reason the prophetic time clock stopped. This pause is known as the church age and encompasses the time from circa 33 CE till now, now being the prerogative flexipreferential period ( . < one of these) to the paused time.

 

This generation was supposed, according to St's Lindsey and van Impe, start ticking again when Israel became a nation again, that being 1948.

 

Palestine was annexed by the then league of nation (now the UN) and "given" to the Zionists. There is a difference between a Zionist and a traditional Jew. One need only google the origins of Zionism to see that this movement started long before hitler was born. Furthermore, the jews never all left Palestine and there were always jews living, in peace I might add, alongside their Palestinian brothers. The jews that returned to Israel were NOT anyway related to the native Jews and were descendants of later converts to Judiasm. These were Askari (may have the name wrong on that) Jews and were from what today is known as Turkey.

 

There are no known records of any mass genocide of jews outside of what we now know as the holocaust. Anyone that can run a spreadsheet can do this for themselves. Start off with 2 couples and let them "be fruitful and multiply" for the exercise ignore genetic pool considerations. from the time of the Diaspora circa100 CE, calculate forward using the following constants.

 

A generation lasts 40 years, each generation has 5 kids that survive to breeding age and produce 5 offspring that survive. At any one time there are three concurrent generations alive.

 

If you do it right, you should arrive like I did at a global Jewish population of about 400-500M for today. Even if you wipe out half due to the black plague, we still come up short and they, the jews were never traditionally in the slums and with arranged marriages did not really mingle with the goyim, our distant forefathers from Europe.

 

The reality is, there are ONLY about 14M Jews worldwide right now, some chosen people eh? Half of them are in the USA and only 35% are actually in Israel right now. Many of these are recent converts and again are no way related to the original Palestinian Jews.

 

I digress, this is a topic all on its own but is key to this 50th generation of Daniel according to the gospel of the woo woos. Israel was conferred as a nation in 1948 and assigned borders according to the biblical geographical timeline of circa 0CE more or less. places like Bethlehem are in teh enemies hands but we will ignore those li'l factoids. This may give you an idea why the USA is soo soft on Israel's settlements, got to have it all back to jeebus' geography so that jeebus can cum again.

 

Now the generation lasting 40 years means jeebus was due back in 1988 (See Luke and the reference to the fig tree) Of phuck 1988 came and went - oops.

 

Oooh, a jubilee generation is actually 50 years NOT 40, so he was due in 1998, Oh phuck that didn't work either. In 1967 there was that 6 day war every then woo woo got weak knees from, so the clock was reset to 1967. 40 years passed an along came 2007 and went. We still have 2017 to look forward to as the flexipreferential timeline still has the jubilee spin to play out. In between that we have the Myan calendar of 2012 and there is a movie so it must be true just like the chronicles of the late woo woo patron saint Charlton Heston.

 

I think you get the picture, the prophetic time clock of Daniel is debunked entirely on historical fact that we are now in 2011 and NONE of their predictions came true. The latest spin from their camp is 2038 as a generation now is conveniently been extended to 70 years from 1967, you know science and medicine keeping folk alive longer than in the past - praaize the lard fer science eh? I should be dead by then and will of course not be able to say "I told you so" and if alive will be a total retard with Alzheimer's just like my dad and all his brothers were, so you have to take my word for it - OK :HaHa:

 

So to all the would be cloud surfers, jeebus tarries a bit long doncha think? Phuck. anyone that stood me up that many times would/should be unceremoniously dumped.

 

This is all from the top of my head. Once upon a time I had all the stuff and links on a blog I used to own but trashed it all. Everything I have shared can be verified via google and should take you to a web page with info.

 

I have posed these factoids to Jewish scholars and they do not have an answer and get very defensive calling me antisemetic etc. when pursuing these answers like I did. There is a website in Florida somewhere that has stats on the current Jewish global population.

 

I used to have the spreadsheet but deleted that too, had a snapshot on the webs but checked all my image libraries and seems I got rid of those too.

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Overcame Faith, I hope you do not see my contributions as hijacking, just so happens this was my entrance and ironically my exit from woowoodumb and did study/research this pretty extensively.

 

The MoB became the UPC barcode in the 70's. The UPC barcode is what you get on all your products you buy from the store. If you look at the UPC, there are three sets of bars that extend longer than the other bars. It just so happens that these line match the number 6 and thus 3 of them gives you teh MoB aka 666

 

UPC%20Anatomy%20FINAL.jpg

The 3 lines are merely triggers to tell the scanner how to interpret the code, the 1st set switches on the scan process, the middle one redirects to get info from elsewhere in the database and the last set end the scan.

 

The new and improved chip had "allegedly" three sets of 6 digits that would be used.

 

Date of birth

Geographical location to withing 100 sq ft where you live

Unique ID just in case you had a twin

 

so allegedly this chip would have

 

nnnnnn nnnnnn nnnnnn and wallah, another iteration of the infamous MoB 666

 

I almost forgot, there was a precursor called the credit card namely VISA where

 

VI is roman numeral for 6

S is first letter of the number SIX

A = 6

 

Well the latter needs some explanation. Numerologists assigned a value of 6 to letters of the alphabet so B=12, C=18 and so on. This is how they determine who is the current auntiechrist, deciphering the letters of politician's name and adding/manipulating till they arrive at a grand total of 666.

 

The first auntiechrist (in recent times) was Henry Kissinger, but they did not use his full name, Bush 1 and Bush II also made the list and was very interesting the algorithms they applied to arrive at the desired answer.

 

They also use Hebrew which as I am told also have numeric values linked to various letters, so the process is apply whatever system gets you to 666 "proves" the person is teh auntichrist. Makes perfect sense eh?

 

The chip has survived the longest and when we already have cellphones that can be triangulated to within 20 sq feet, one wonders why woo woos have cell phones. The beast already has you monitored and stuff like google maps working to the point to give side on images probably scares them shitless.

 

But remember, here in Africa, India and China where half the world populations resides, this technology is essentially non existent.

 

As I understand, the USA govt can monitor all phone calls and intercept all emails. Thus any woo woo that users a 'puter, cell phone, credit card is already monitored by teh beast.

 

There have been some interesting movies made along these lines and of course, it it was on the big screen it must be true.

 

Really, all any American woo woo has to do is move out of their paradigm and see just how not advanced the rest of the world is.

 

To kinda put this in perspective, here in SA, most folk do their banking remotely. We have a pensioners day once a month where the indigenous folk all come to town from the surrounding farms to collect their govt. pension. For that day, there is a flea market of these folk buying and selling wares and it is ALL done in cash. So even here in SA where we are luckily a little more advanced than most of Africa, we still have this dichotomy of 1st and 3rd world folk existing side by side. One would have to infiltrate this demographic and eliminate cash altogether, teach them computer skills, issue bank cards and eliminate cash altogether.

 

I suppose in woowoodumb, it would not be immoral to simply eliminate these folk, after all, their mere existence is stopping jeebus' return. The farther north one goes in Africa from SA, the more the latter demographic is in the majority, till you reach the Med where it is about the same as SA.

 

We have a little landlocked nation here in SA called the kingdom of Lesuto and I was there once on business. They achieved their independence from the crown way back in the early 1900's as a sovereign kingdom. The rural folk are still riding donkeys, using animal drawn vehicles with the only modern piece being the axle and wheels off a scrap vehicle. It was like time travel into the past and a mere 30km from their borders, we have a metropolis (in our standards) where the modern society exists. When you are exposed to this type of worldview, then I can assure you, there is no way in hell for any of this MoB crap to be even remotely plausible.

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Good stuff, keep it coming. I really like how you lay things out and address specifics as well as providing examples. I will be checking into this post often, probably even after it has long closed to reread what you have been saying, so your hard work is much appreciated from my end!

 

AGREED. Well put together, simple to understand. It is a very interesting albeit subjective point of view. (One I agree with though) I like that you are breaking it up as well, cause that makes it easier to read too.

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Overcame Faith, I hope you do not see my contributions as hijacking, just so happens this was my entrance and ironically my exit from woowoodumb and did study/research this pretty extensively.

 

The MoB became the UPC barcode in the 70's. The UPC barcode is what you get on all your products you buy from the store. If you look at the UPC, there are three sets of bars that extend longer than the other bars. It just so happens that these line match the number 6 and thus 3 of them gives you teh MoB aka 666

 

UPC%20Anatomy%20FINAL.jpg

The 3 lines are merely triggers to tell the scanner how to interpret the code, the 1st set switches on the scan process, the middle one redirects to get info from elsewhere in the database and the last set end the scan.

 

The new and improved chip had "allegedly" three sets of 6 digits that would be used.

 

Date of birth

Geographical location to withing 100 sq ft where you live

Unique ID just in case you had a twin

 

so allegedly this chip would have

 

nnnnnn nnnnnn nnnnnn and wallah, another iteration of the infamous MoB 666

 

I almost forgot, there was a precursor called the credit card namely VISA where

 

VI is roman numeral for 6

S is first letter of the number SIX

A = 6

 

Well the latter needs some explanation. Numerologists assigned a value of 6 to letters of the alphabet so B=12, C=18 and so on. This is how they determine who is the current auntiechrist, deciphering the letters of politician's name and adding/manipulating till they arrive at a grand total of 666.

 

The first auntiechrist (in recent times) was Henry Kissinger, but they did not use his full name, Bush 1 and Bush II also made the list and was very interesting the algorithms they applied to arrive at the desired answer.

 

They also use Hebrew which as I am told also have numeric values linked to various letters, so the process is apply whatever system gets you to 666 "proves" the person is teh auntichrist. Makes perfect sense eh?

 

The chip has survived the longest and when we already have cellphones that can be triangulated to within 20 sq feet, one wonders why woo woos have cell phones. The beast already has you monitored and stuff like google maps working to the point to give side on images probably scares them shitless.

 

But remember, here in Africa, India and China where half the world populations resides, this technology is essentially non existent.

 

As I understand, the USA govt can monitor all phone calls and intercept all emails. Thus any woo woo that users a 'puter, cell phone, credit card is already monitored by teh beast.

 

There have been some interesting movies made along these lines and of course, it it was on the big screen it must be true.

 

Really, all any American woo woo has to do is move out of their paradigm and see just how not advanced the rest of the world is.

 

To kinda put this in perspective, here in SA, most folk do their banking remotely. We have a pensioners day once a month where the indigenous folk all come to town from the surrounding farms to collect their govt. pension. For that day, there is a flea market of these folk buying and selling wares and it is ALL done in cash. So even here in SA where we are luckily a little more advanced than most of Africa, we still have this dichotomy of 1st and 3rd world folk existing side by side. One would have to infiltrate this demographic and eliminate cash altogether, teach them computer skills, issue bank cards and eliminate cash altogether.

 

I suppose in woowoodumb, it would not be immoral to simply eliminate these folk, after all, their mere existence is stopping jeebus' return. The farther north one goes in Africa from SA, the more the latter demographic is in the majority, till you reach the Med where it is about the same as SA.

 

We have a little landlocked nation here in SA called the kingdom of Lesuto and I was there once on business. They achieved their independence from the crown way back in the early 1900's as a sovereign kingdom. The rural folk are still riding donkeys, using animal drawn vehicles with the only modern piece being the axle and wheels off a scrap vehicle. It was like time travel into the past and a mere 30km from their borders, we have a metropolis (in our standards) where the modern society exists. When you are exposed to this type of worldview, then I can assure you, there is no way in hell for any of this MoB crap to be even remotely plausible.

 

WOAW Another South African !! :D

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WOAW Another South African !! :D

 

Hey Elaine, never noticed your location. Yeah been here awhile but this subject tickles my fancy plus I have time to kill. There are few other SA's here but not very active.

 

rgds

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Overcame Faith, I hope you do not see my contributions as hijacking, just so happens this was my entrance and ironically my exit from woowoodumb and did study/research this pretty extensively.

 

I do not see your contributions, or anyone else's, as hijacking. I invited contributions.

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Good stuff, keep it coming. I really like how you lay things out and address specifics as well as providing examples. I will be checking into this post often, probably even after it has long closed to reread what you have been saying, so your hard work is much appreciated from my end!

 

AGREED. Well put together, simple to understand. It is a very interesting albeit subjective point of view. (One I agree with though) I like that you are breaking it up as well, cause that makes it easier to read too.

 

Thanks. I guess we can never really get around some degree of subjectivism. But what helps me now is that I am not saddled with faith as I was as a Christian when I read the same passages I am now discussing but, because of faith, saw them as prophecies in the true sense. One bible phrase that seems to fit nicely is that "the scales fell from my eyes." As I've said before, though, it's not that I am saying that my point of view is the only valid point of view, it's just that I am offering what I think is a more plausible point of view than the end-timers offer.

 

I'm glad that breaking it up is helpful. And breaking it up is really the only way I could do this since, like so many others on this site, I work full time and can only work on this when not doing my job or tending to family issues. But If it helps even just one person, then it's all worth it to me.

 

Though I won't be posting it probably until early next week since I am going out of town this weekend, my Reason Number 6 will deal with one of my favorite topics. And that topic is Daniel's Seventy Sevens (or weeks or weeks of years, depending on translation and one's point of view) found in Daniel 9:24-27. It's a fascinating topic and one that I have mulled over for years.

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Overcame Faith, before you move on to other topics, could you please expand a bit more on the mark of the beast issue? I totally understand the information you provided regarding how John of Patmos is using a "theoretical" mark like the one the supposedly marked Cain-- but I would like some clarification as to why he specifically talks about the right hand and forehead. I have read some documentation from Preterists that this is due to Jews binding their scriptures to their hands and foreheads-- and that John was displeased with the Jews for their imperial worship so this was some sort of offshoot of this frustration. The preterists also site other scriptures in Revelalation that talk about God marking his saints-- and that both of these marks are symbolic. I wanted to get your take on this.

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The OP sounds if human emotions affect what the truth might be. So if you don't fear such that the truth no longer be a truth? What's your fear or there lackof has anything to do with what the truth or falsehood is?!

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I guess I am not afraid of the endtimes per se. I don't see the Book of Revelation as being truly valid. However, I see enough scary stuff in the news to keep me scared enough, like the 14 trillion dollars we owe and the RFID chips and all that stuff. I don't need the Bible to tell me to be scared of that stuff. History speaks.

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