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Overcame Faith

Top Ten Reasons Not To Fear Biblical End-times Scenarios

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Overcame Faith, before you move on to other topics, could you please expand a bit more on the mark of the beast issue? I totally understand the information you provided regarding how John of Patmos is using a "theoretical" mark like the one the supposedly marked Cain-- but I would like some clarification as to why he specifically talks about the right hand and forehead. I have read some documentation from Preterists that this is due to Jews binding their scriptures to their hands and foreheads-- and that John was displeased with the Jews for their imperial worship so this was some sort of offshoot of this frustration. The preterists also site other scriptures in Revelalation that talk about God marking his saints-- and that both of these marks are symbolic. I wanted to get your take on this.

 

One thing I like about doing this is having the opportunity to think about things that I had not previously thought about. And I have not previously thought about why John of Patmos chose the right hand and forehead for the location of his metaphorical "mark of the beast."

 

But before I share my thoughts on this issue, I want to share a little about my overall view of Revelation. I do not believe that John of Patmos had any kind of "vision" whatsoever. That is, he was not transported forward in time to view a set of future events nor was he even taken to any place in his own time to see any events. Furthermore, I do not believe he had some kind of mental vision either, whether drug induced or perhaps from some sort of problem like epilepsy. Rather, I believe he intentionally adopted a style of writing called apocalyptic writing as a way to convey a message. The whole book of revelation is too well-thought out, too mathematically precise to have been some sort of drug or mental induced episode. Just look how well organized it is.

 

There were seven seals, each being broken by Jesus which led to seven visions. With the breaking of the seventh seal, seven angels with seven trumpets were heralded onto the scene to continue. As these seven angels each blew their trumpets one after the other, each blowing of a trumpet brought another seven visions and with the blowing of the seventh trumpet, came seven more angels holding seven bowls of wrath. As these last seven angels each poured their seven bowls of wrath one after the other, there were seven more visions. It all comes in multiples of seven, like the seven days of creation (actually six days of creation followed by god resting on the seventh day). The use of seven demonstrates that all of these events were sanctioned by god, leading to a new creation which is pictured in Revelation 21 - the New Heaven and a New Earth. It is a classic case of destruction of the old, evil ways followed by the creation of the new and perfect.

 

John of Patmos used a very common form of apocalyptic writing. He used symbols which had to be interpreted to be understood. So when John of Patmos writes that he saw "a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth," [Revelation 5:6] this is not to be taken to mean a literal lamb. Rather, it is a symbol for Jesus, the slain lamb, but also with the seven spirits of god. He was slain, but is powerful is the message here.

 

One should also understand who John of Patmos's intended audience was. The intended audience was clearly a Christian audience. But I believe it is more specific than just that. I believe the intended audience were Jewish Christians, not necessarily gentile Christians. I base this conclusion on the many references to things Jewish. For example, John of Patmos wrote of the 144,000 to be sealed. He specifically stated that they came from the twelve Hebrew tribes.

 

With all of this in mind, I will share my thoughts on the mark of the beast being on the right hand or on the forehead. Again, the mark is merely symbolic as I stated earlier. It is the inverse of god's mark on Cain. That is, where god's mark on Cain was to show that Cain was the property of god and therefore to protect Cain, the mark of the beast shows the recipients of this metaphorical mark to be the property of Rome who will lose god's protection. But why the right hand and forehead?

 

Consider this verse from Exodus:

 

Then Moses said to the people, “Commemorate this day, the day you came out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery, because the LORD brought you out of it with a mighty hand. Eat nothing containing yeast. 4 Today, in the month of Aviv, you are leaving. 5 When the LORD brings you into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Hivites and Jebusites—the land he swore to your ancestors to give you, a land flowing with milk and honey—you are to observe this ceremony in this month: 6 For seven days eat bread made without yeast and on the seventh day hold a festival to the LORD. 7 Eat unleavened bread during those seven days; nothing with yeast in it is to be seen among you, nor shall any yeast be seen anywhere within your borders. 8 On that day tell your son, ‘I do this because of what the LORD did for me when I came out of Egypt.’ 9 This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that this law of the LORD is to be on your lips. For the LORD brought you out of Egypt with his mighty hand. 10 You must keep this ordinance at the appointed time year after year.

 

Exodus 13:3-10.

 

I have highlighted the part I want to bring to your specific attention, but have quoted the entire passage to put it into context. Here, eating unleavened bread is said to be "like" a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead. It is a sign and a reminder of god having delivered his people from Egyptian slavery. Like the sign in Revelation, it is a metaphorical sign. But that is where the similarity ends. John of Patmos is again using the inverse of what is shown in this passage from Exodus. The metaphorical mark of the beast of revelation is to call the attention of the Jewish Christians to god's sign which is metaphorically placed on their hand and foreheads as a reminder of how god delivered them from slavery. In Revelation, the sign puts them back into slavery. So John of Patmos's message is for the Jewish Christians to remember that they were delivered out of Egyptian slavery by god and not to engage in commerce or otherwise associate themselves with Rome because to do so will send them back into slavery.

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The OP sounds if human emotions affect what the truth might be. So if you don't fear such that the truth no longer be a truth? What's your fear or there lackof has anything to do with what the truth or falsehood is?!

 

No. The truth may be a fearful thing. For example, the truth that falling off of a 1,000 foot high cliff will result in one's death is both true and frightening. What I am saying is that when one learns the truth about Biblical end-times scenarios, one will not be frightened because the truth is that none of it has anything to do with what is happening in the world today. The truth is that there is nothing to fear from what is written in the Bible about "end-times."

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I guess I am not afraid of the endtimes per se. I don't see the Book of Revelation as being truly valid. However, I see enough scary stuff in the news to keep me scared enough, like the 14 trillion dollars we owe and the RFID chips and all that stuff. I don't need the Bible to tell me to be scared of that stuff. History speaks.

 

I agree. There are plenty of fearful things happening in the world that have no relation to the Bible whatsoever. The lesson in this thread is that the Bible does not offer anything to be afraid of at all, but the message is directed specifically at "end-times" issues since there are a fair number of people who wrestle with these issues.

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I guess I am not afraid of the endtimes per se. I don't see the Book of Revelation as being truly valid. However, I see enough scary stuff in the news to keep me scared enough, like the 14 trillion dollars we owe and the RFID chips and all that stuff. I don't need the Bible to tell me to be scared of that stuff. History speaks.

 

I agree. There are plenty of fearful things happening in the world that have no relation to the Bible whatsoever. The lesson in this thread is that the Bible does not offer anything to be afraid of at all, but the message is directed specifically at "end-times" issues since there are a fair number of people who wrestle with these issues.

 

Yes and I understand the battle. There are a lot of churches that get people really riled up about the rapture and the antichrist and all that. I guess when I stopped thinking of the Bible as The Word of God, I was able to divorce myself from those thoughts and also divorce RFID from the mark of the beast etc.

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The MoB became the UPC barcode in the 70's. The UPC barcode is what you get on all your products you buy from the store. If you look at the UPC, there are three sets of bars that extend longer than the other bars. It just so happens that these line match the number 6 and thus 3 of them gives you teh MoB aka 666

Yeah. The problem though is that the S-M-E (start-middle-end) patterns are not complete 6s.

 

A six is either 0101111 or 1010000.

 

While S and E are 101, and M is 01010.

 

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Product_Code#Current_code

 

It only looks like a six because the R pattern of 6 has a sequence of 101 in it, and the S, M, and E patterns do too.

 

So is the UPC the number of the beast? No, it's more like the "Numb o th Bea."

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The OP sounds if human emotions affect what the truth might be. So if you don't fear such that the truth no longer be a truth? What's your fear or there lackof has anything to do with what the truth or falsehood is?!

 

Way to completely ignore all the points made and try to turn it into something it's not. As the old adage goes, you've put the cart before the horse. Nobody here said that it's not true because he/she doesn't fear it. What has been stated (by the OP and others) is that it's not feared because there are strong reasons to believe it's not true. OvercameFaith has done a very good job outlining several problems with end-times prophecies, and seeing that you've ignored every single point that has been made, you obviously have nothing to respond with. You have presented no logical argument at all, which makes it look like you are the one here operating on the basis of "emotions."

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The MoB became the UPC barcode in the 70's. The UPC barcode is what you get on all your products you buy from the store. If you look at the UPC, there are three sets of bars that extend longer than the other bars. It just so happens that these line match the number 6 and thus 3 of them gives you teh MoB aka 666

Yeah. The problem though is that the S-M-E (start-middle-end) patterns are not complete 6s.

 

A six is either 0101111 or 1010000.

 

While S and E are 101, and M is 01010.

 

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia....de#Current_code

 

It only looks like a six because the R pattern of 6 has a sequence of 101 in it, and the S, M, and E patterns do too.

 

So is the UPC the number of the beast? No, it's more like the "Numb o th Bea."

Thanks for that.

 

I was merely citing the half information that prevailed at that time. Of course back in the 80's there was no internet that folk could fact check these assertions. It is like all the woo woos say and believe, anything that gives them a woody that jeebus is coming soon "must be true"

 

The evangelist whose crap I believed was Barry Smith from New Zealand and he wrote 4 books which I studied and then gave away later. I do not think he invented this as this meme comes out from the likes of van Impe and Lindsey too.

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Reason Number 6.

 

To conclude that the alleged prophecies in Revelation, Daniel and other passages relate to us, we must engage in mental gymnastics.

 

When I was a Christian and studied the Bible, I did so with a certain mind-set. That mind-set was that I was reading the word of god, all of which must be true, and that my task was to come to understand what god intended for us to learn from the Bible. I now know that that is a very limiting way of studying because it does not allow one to explore fully the meaning of a Biblical passage.

 

When one comes at biblical “prophecies” from the perspective as I did as a Christian that what was recorded were the words of god given to a human being and to be preserved in and shared with us through the Bible, then that bias shades one’s interpretation of what one is reading. One may come to believe that god actually shared visions of future events for our benefit and that if there is one dramatic example of this, then that will serve as a proof text for all the others.

 

My favorite example of what I thought was a dramatically precise prophecy having been fulfilled is found in Daniel 9:20-27.

 

20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill— 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:

24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e]

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.[g] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

 

I found the interpretation and what I thought was the fulfillment of this “prophecy” to be so dramatic, that it bothered me for sometime after I renounced Christianity. If you are unfamiliar with what is done with this “prophecy,” I will share the interpretation that I found so fascinating and convincing as a Christian.

 

Though there are variations, this is how at least one of them goes. Each of the “sevens” is a seven year period of time. Since there are seventy sevens, we are dealing with a total time period of 490 years (70 x 7 years = 490 years). So the prophecy deals with a total of 490 years. But these are not normal solar years as we use. They are “prophetic” years or “Hebrew” years of 360 days each rather than the solar year which is 365.25 days.

 

In these 490 years the following must happen: “finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.” Daniel 9:24.

 

The question then is when does the 490 years begin? We find the following in Daniel 9:25: “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens’….” This refers to the fact that the Jews were in Babylonian captivity after Jerusalem had been destroyed. The starting point, therefore, is when a decree is issued to rebuild Jerusalem.

 

If we take as the starting point, the decree issued by Artaxerexes found in Nehemiah 2:1-10 and move forward in time for 69 of these seven year periods of time or 483 years of 360 days each, then we come precisely to the time of Jesus’ crucifixion. And why do we only use 69 of the 70 years? The reason is that the words in the passage say that from the starting point which I have already discussed, there will be seven sevens and 62 sevens for a total of 69 sevens or 483 years. And how do we know that the event we are looking forward to is Jesus’ crucifixion? Because the verse says “After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.” Well who could that be but Jesus, the Anointed One who was crucified for our sins?

 

Here is a website which goes into more detail about this “fulfilled” prophecy than I have here. But, remember, by providing a link, I am not endorsing this website nor do I mean to suggest that what they say is actually true. I am only giving it as an example of how some Christians view Daniel’s Seventy Weeks.

 

http://www.truthnet.org/dan70.html

 

See also this website for a view of Daniel’s Seventy Weeks from a Jewish perspective who argues that the 69 weeks of years actually prophecies the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE.

 

http://be-true.org/knowledge/bible/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/

 

If the Christian explanation for 69 of the 70 “weeks of years” is true, then we have an astounding example of fulfilled prophecy. There are debates on the dating of the Book of Daniel. But no one seriously dates it into the first century CE. It seems to me that the best dating takes it to around 164 BCE. But that is a long way away from Jesus’ crucifixion.

 

And what does all of this have to do with end-times issues? It is the one remaining seven year period which brings this passage from Daniel to end-times prominence. The end-timers like to say that there is a sort of lull from the crucifixion of Jesus until the actual start-up of end-times events and the final fulfillment of Daniel’s seventieth week.

 

This is the part of Daniel 9 which they say is what will happen in that seventieth week:

 

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

 

Daniel 9:26-27.

 

The “ruler who will come” is viewed by end-timers as the Anti-Christ. Destruction of the “city and the sanctuary” refer to Jerusalem as the city and the still to be built third temple as the sanctuary. So this is the genesis of the end-times necessity of a third temple being built in Jerusalem. It can’t be destroyed unless it is first built.

 

Then the action slows down in verse 27 which says that “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’” The “He” is the Anti-Christ and the “covenant” is perceived to be some sort of treaty with Israel. Israel makes sense because the previous verses speak of Jerusalem and the temple. Therefore, when viewed in context the “many” must be Israel.

 

Then we have this dramatic event, “In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering and at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

 

Many of the end-timers say that the order of things as prophesied by Daniel’s seventieth week is the establishment of Israel which happened in 1948, the building of a third temple which has not yet happened, the rise of the anti-Christ which has not yet happened, the treaty between anti-Christ and Israel which has not yet happened, the breaking of that treaty and the subsequent declaration by the anti-Christ that he is god which he will do at the rebuilt third temple. This declaration is said to be the “abomination that causes desolation.”

 

All of the seventieth week activities are inter-mixed with Revelation and other “end-times” passages to put on a very convincing end-time scenario. That is, very convincing if it holds together. But it does not hold together at all. This is all a result of the mind-set that I described at the beginning of this section. If one begins studying “prophecies” convinced that god has provided us with information about end-time events, then one can twist and turn these passages to make them fit into actual history to give the alleged “prophecies” some credibility, and then go forward into our future with great zeal arguing that they must be right because god’s prophecy has been dramatically demonstrated to be true.

 

Now, let’s look at what we must believe in order to accept that Daniel’s first sixty-nine weeks prophesies the exact date of Jesus’ crucifixion.

 

1. We must believe that the “seventy sevens” actually refers to years even though the text never says it refers to years.

 

2. We must believe that a year for purposes of this “prophecy” is 360 days long because otherwise the math does not work out right.

 

3. We must believe that Jesus was actually crucified and that we know the exact date of his alleged crucifixion.

 

4. We must believe that the starting point of the 69 weeks was actually with a decree issued by Artaxerexes and that we know the precise date that such a decree was issued, if it was issued at all.

 

5. We must believe that the math actually works day for day beginning on the date that Artaxerexes allegedly issued his decree to the actual date that Jesus was allegedly crucified. That is, that is was precisely 173,880 days from when Artaxerexes issued a decree to when Jesus was crucified.

 

6. We must believe that Jesus is the subject of these verses and not someone else.

 

7. We must believe that these verses actually prophesy about future events rather than describe events which are historical to or contemporary with the author.

 

Now, let’s take a look at what we must believe in order to believe that Daniel’s seventieth week has some applicability to us.

 

1. We must believe all the points I made about Daniel’s first sixty-nine weeks, above.

 

2. We must believe there is a gap of unspecified time between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week even though the text does not specifically say there is such a gap.

 

3. We must believe that the “ruler” is the anti-Christ even though the text does not tell us that this is the case.

 

4. We must believe that this “covenant” refers to a treaty with modern day Israel rather some sort of accord with Jews that lived prior to the writing of this passage or who lived contemporaneously with the writing of the passage.

 

5. We must believe that the temple refers to a not yet built third temple rather than the second temple which actually existed at the time the passage was written.

 

6. We must believe that the “abomination which causes desolation” refers to a future event rather than an event which happened prior to the writing of the passage or contemporaneously with the writing of the passage.

 

Let us now look at another, what I believe to be, more plausible understanding of Daniel’s Seventy Weeks. To do this, we must focus in on the Angel Gabriel. Here’s what Gabriel said to Daniel in Chapter 9:

 

20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill— 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:

 

Gabriel wants Daniel to understand “the vision.” And Gabriel’s words about the seventy sevens are Gabriel’s attempt to help Daniel understand “the vision.” But there is no vision in Daniel Chapter 9 for Daniel to understand. So what is this vision to which Gabriel refers and for which the seventy sevens is meant to shed the light of understanding?

 

If we turn back to the previous chapter of Daniel, Chapter 8, we find that Daniel had a vision and that Gabriel appeared to Daniel to interpret the vision for him. Here is Chapter 8 in its entirety:

 

1 In the third year of King Belshazzar’s reign, I, Daniel, had a vision, after the one that had already appeared to me. 2 In my vision I saw myself in the citadel of Susa in the province of Elam; in the vision I was beside the Ulai Canal. 3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. 4 I watched the ram as it charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against it, and none could rescue from its power. It did as it pleased and became great.

5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between its eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6 It came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at it in great rage. 7 I saw it attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering its two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against it; the goat knocked it to the ground and trampled on it, and none could rescue the ram from its power. 8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the LORD; it took away the daily sacrifice from the LORD, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the LORD’s people[a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

15 While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. 16 And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.”

17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

18 While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.

19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.[c] 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

26 “The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

27 I, Daniel, was worn out. I lay exhausted for several days. Then I got up and went about the king’s business. I was appalled by the vision; it was beyond understanding.

 

A little bit of Greek history will help you to understand this “vision.” The “vision” refers to Alexander the Great’s conquest of Persia and other empires. After Alexander’s death in 323 BCE, there was a struggle among various factions for control of the territory Alexander conquered. Eventually, the conquered territory was divided into four regions with four different rulers or kings. It is not difficult to read the above passages from Daniel and to see that Daniel’s vision related to Alexander and what happened to his kingdom after his death.

 

But the above passages end with a discussion of another king “a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.” The passage goes on to provide more details.

 

When Gabriel returns to Daniel in Chapter nine, it is this vision that he wants to explain in more detail to Daniel. Specifically, Gabriel wants to tell Daniel about this “fierce looking king” who will cause all the trouble. And it is that which is the subject of the seventy sevens.

 

Who was this person about whom Gabriel wanted to give Daniel more information through the use of the device of seventy sevens? That person was Antiochus IV Epiphanes who ruled one of the portions of Alexander the Great’s empire from 174 BCE until his death in 163 BCE. He is the anointed one, the ruler spoken of by Gabriel in Daniel 9:25. It was not Jesus at all nor is there anything about some future anti-Christ.

 

And what about the temple and the abomination that causes desolation which so many end-timers attribute to future events. The temple was the second temple which stood at the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the abomination that causes desolation was a number of things that was done to the temple, including stopping the sacrifices, slaughtering pigs, using the temple to worship gods other than YHWH, and on and on. You can read all about it here in one of the apocryphal books called The First Book of the Maccabees. It is all laid out pretty well there.

 

http://st-takla.org/pub_Deuterocanon/Deuterocanon-Apocrypha_El-Asfar_El-Kanoneya_El-Tanya__8-First-of-Maccabees.html

 

And what about Israel? No need for the reestablishment of the modern day State of Israel to understand the passage. It referred to the Israel that existed at the time that Antiochus IV Epiphanes was so tough on the Jews.

 

As for the seventy sevens and precise dating and all of that. It was simply meant to represent time periods and did not point to any specific future time at all.

 

In short, the more plausible explanation for the Seventy Sevens is that it is a historical account of the atrocities committed on the Jewish people under the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and has nothing whatsoever to do with us. Nothing whatsoever.

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I am not worried of end times prophecy or any crapola like that. I've heard it all thousands of times. Keep in the mind the sound of a bible being slammed shut is the sound of one hand clapping. There has been nothing written by any christian that was ever sold that was not intended to be sold to make money at the cost of xtian paranoias and beliefs. The best sellers feed off of this fear of the unknown. Though I will die some day, the sun will still rise that day and the day after and the day after that forever. Humans believe they are god's gift to the universe because they are the only race of intelligent life, at least as we gauge intelligence, but they do so because the other races of humans, such as Neanderthals, have become extinct. Who did they worship? With whom can we compare ourselves to without another race of humans to compare ourselves with? And those human races who became extinct before the Neanderthals, who or what did they worship? The end of our existence on this planet is not the end of time nor the end of life but room made for life to continue and flourish. The narrow mindedness of religion is not just a christian only phenomenon, it is a mental disorder affecting all religions. Every man knows his days are numbered and he fears death because he does not understand it nor his own role in the scheme of things. If I were to tell you that you are going to die, is that a prophecy? No, because we all die. If I say the sun will go dark, is that a prophecy? No because sooner or later it will run out of fuel billions of years from now and by then all life on earth will be no more. The best reason not to fear end-time scenarios is that humans will already be gone when the end of the sun comes. Our place is not set in the universe but will someday collide with a super galaxy billions of years from now. Religion does not have the answer to our problems and it cannot foretell what our future holds.

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Extremely well researched and written. I add my voice to the others who are looking forward to reading the rest of the series. Prophesy was one of the areas that fascintated me as a pre-trib rapture fundi baptist. It was also one of the main areas which convinced me of the foolishness of it all when I really started researching it for myself.

 

 

To conclude that the alleged prophecies in Revelation, Daniel and other passages relate to us, we must engage in mental gymnastics.

 

When I was a Christian and studied the Bible, I did so with a certain mind-set. That mind-set was that I was reading the word of god, all of which must be true, and that my task was to come to understand what god intended for us to learn from the Bible. I now know that that is a very limiting way of studying because it does not allow one to explore fully the meaning of a Biblical passage.

 

When one comes at biblical “prophecies” from the perspective as I did as a Christian that what was recorded were the words of god given to a human being and to be preserved in and shared with us through the Bible, then that bias shades one’s interpretation of what one is reading. One may come to believe that god actually shared visions of future events for our benefit and that if there is one dramatic example of this, then that will serve as a proof text for all the others.

 

 

Exactly!!! I do not know why that is so hard to understand. Most of my former christian friends have no problem identifying this concept when it comes to politics or any other subject, they even admit that "some" christians have that problem, but of course, they are thinking "clearly" :banghead:

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The building of the third temple is really impossible at the current site. The eastern gate as I mentioned earlier is where the messiah is supposed to return and there is already a graveyard there which prevents this from happening.

 

So the are two choices

 

1. Destroy the Dome of the rock temple the 2nd most holy site to the muslims after mecca

 

2. Build the 3rd temple elsewhere.

 

The latter would then mean all the prophecies relating to the temple are bogus.

 

Jews are not going to incite a holy war against the Muslim nations as they the Jews are basically all secular. Only a few woo woo Jews want/plan to do this but they have neither the backing of the people nor the government nor do they have the finances to pull this off,

 

Likewise their desire to re-institute the levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices has already been banned at a government level and instigated by animal rights activists. You can google all this.

 

Lastly, the Israeli government has to be taken over by these woo woos and their support is less than 1%

 

In Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism

and
disavow all belief in a restoration of a
, the resumption of Korbanot, or the continuation of identified
or
. These branches of Judaism believe that all such practices represent ancient practices inconsistent with the requirements of modernity, and
have removed all or virtually all references to Korbanot from their prayer books.

 

In light of any of these events materializing, the construction of the 3rd temple would get a mention in the news.

 

Lastly, the holy of holies has to accommodate the ark of the covenant and that piece of probably fictitious artifact is missing. Many Ethiopian Jews claim to have it but if you read the account when the ark went missing in the OT, the place where it was prospered and there was lush fields and all. Not sure if one can say Ethiopia falls into the lush/prosperous category. Their annual rituals of carrying the ark on their heads does not line up with the requirements for the high priest to enter the holy of holies let alone touch this artifact. The high priest had to offer atonement for his own sins and had bells attached to his garb plus a rope on his feet so that he could be dragged out if he were slain in the presence of the lard.

 

The actual rituals of moving the ark were quite intricate and merely slinging a blanket over it and placing it upon your head is not the standard mode of transport. Plus it is made of gold/contains a shitload of gold and we all know how light gold is right? Not to mention the two stone tablets contained within.

 

Of course, some woo woos say it is in the dungeons of the existing temple and cannot be excavated due to muslim occupation of said premises.

 

If it still existed or existed at all at the time of the destruction of the temple, sure the occupiers would have taken it back then. The idea that they had enough time to sneak this out of Jerusalem while occupied in a civil war, one has to drink the koolaide.

 

This anyway is moot as jesus' prophesy of the temple being destroyed and restored in 3 days was referring to himself. So he did come to replace the OT ways and thus no future temple is required.

 

Synagogues no way resemble anything like the temple and the practicing jews worldwide do not engage in any form of animal sacrifice. Their rituals are nowhere near the levitical order and their traditional garb only marginally has resemblances to the temple worship stuff.

 

Only a woo woo would believe that in this modern day and age that this was possible

 

JEWISH_TEMPLE00000018.jpg

 

More Jewish Temple Pics Here

 

Jewish Synagogue

The%20Jewish%20Synagogue%20of%20Astana.JPG

 

You can see more examples of Jewish Synagogues here

 

The levite priests btw were a pretty selective bloodline and the chances that they have not interbred is highly unlikely. Furthermore, as I have mentioned elsewhere, the modern jews are descendants from later mass converts that are nowhere near related to the semite jews of Palestine who btw look pretty much like their Palestinian brothers.

 

If you take the time to study the 12 tribes of Israel, you will find all this information.

 

The woo woos should anyway know that the current dispensation is the Melchizedek priesthood which when you break it down backs up their scam of tithes.

 

Hebrews 5:9-11 (New King James Version)

9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
10
called by God as High Priest
“according to the order of Melchizedek,”
11
of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

 

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Religion does not have the answer to our problems and it cannot foretell what our future holds.

 

Absolutely.

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Extremely well researched and written. I add my voice to the others who are looking forward to reading the rest of the series. Prophesy was one of the areas that fascintated me as a pre-trib rapture fundi baptist. It was also one of the main areas which convinced me of the foolishness of it all when I really started researching it for myself.

 

 

To conclude that the alleged prophecies in Revelation, Daniel and other passages relate to us, we must engage in mental gymnastics.

 

When I was a Christian and studied the Bible, I did so with a certain mind-set. That mind-set was that I was reading the word of god, all of which must be true, and that my task was to come to understand what god intended for us to learn from the Bible. I now know that that is a very limiting way of studying because it does not allow one to explore fully the meaning of a Biblical passage.

 

When one comes at biblical “prophecies” from the perspective as I did as a Christian that what was recorded were the words of god given to a human being and to be preserved in and shared with us through the Bible, then that bias shades one’s interpretation of what one is reading. One may come to believe that god actually shared visions of future events for our benefit and that if there is one dramatic example of this, then that will serve as a proof text for all the others.

 

 

Exactly!!! I do not know why that is so hard to understand. Most of my former christian friends have no problem identifying this concept when it comes to politics or any other subject, they even admit that "some" christians have that problem, but of course, they are thinking "clearly" :banghead:

 

Thanks, ExFundiDCLawyer. It is extremely difficult to recognize one's bias when that bias is in full swing. Indeed, I really didn't recognize it in myself until after I was freed from Christianity and thereby freed my mind from the bias that I described. It is why it is so difficult to get through to true believers.

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The building of the third temple is really impossible at the current site.

 

I agree. And just as importantly, even if somehow the temple were rebuilt on the exact site, it would mean nothing in terms of end-times events, because there are no end-times events as described in the Bible.

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Has anyone watched Waiting for Armaggedon? I just watched it the other day. It is really scary when you think about where the temple is build and that there are so many who want to remove it in he name of God. It's really sad when you think about it. But they think they HAVE to do it.

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Thanks for that.

 

I was merely citing the half information that prevailed at that time. Of course back in the 80's there was no internet that folk could fact check these assertions. It is like all the woo woos say and believe, anything that gives them a woody that jeebus is coming soon "must be true"

I know you did. :)

 

I just wanted to contribute the information that I knew about. Even as Christian in the 80's, when I heard about the UPC and the number of the beast, I looked into it and learned that it was wrong. It was just another crack in my trust in Christian apology and rhetoric.

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Has anyone watched Waiting for Armaggedon? I just watched it the other day. It is really scary when you think about where the temple is build and that there are so many who want to remove it in he name of God. It's really sad when you think about it. But they think they HAVE to do it.

 

I haven't seen this, but will look it up and watch it. What is scariest to me is that a group of nutjobs may want to do things to bring about what they view as end-times events to usher in the return of Jesus. None of that would be true fulfillment of prophecy, of course, but it could cause some problems like blowing up the Muslim temple which presently sits on the site believed to be where the first two Jewish temples sat. That is scary.

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Has anyone watched Waiting for Armaggedon? I just watched it the other day. It is really scary when you think about where the temple is build and that there are so many who want to remove it in he name of God. It's really sad when you think about it. But they think they HAVE to do it.

 

I haven't seen this, but will look it up and watch it. What is scariest to me is that a group of nutjobs may want to do things to bring about what they view as end-times events to usher in the return of Jesus. None of that would be true fulfillment of prophecy, of course, but it could cause some problems like blowing up the Muslim temple which presently sits on the site believed to be where the first two Jewish temples sat. That is scary.

 

A point was made in the movie that the Christians/Israelites were the ones who brought biblical prophecy to pass in 1948 and then they have used it ever since to prove their doctrines.

 

 

 

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The Daniel business does not really concern me all that much because I agree that everything addressed in it was regarding a time in the past. Aniochous (I am sure that is spelled wrong, but am too lazy to look up the correct spelling!)defiled the temple and if I remember right ruled for around 3 1/2 years. I recently read that the writer of Daniel was trying reconcile the previous prophecy of one of the elder prophets--Jeremiah I think, that had received the original vision that talked about 7 years or 70 years and then Isareal would rule the earth. That did not happen so Daniel asked the lord for clarification-- it became 7 heptads of years or the 490 years that it is now. The author of Daniel fully thought all of the prophecies were coming to pass in his day-- with all of the awful things happening-- but of course he was wrong. The end did not come. So, when the last writers of the bible were looking for informaiton as to what would happen in the end days, they looked to the scriptures of Daniel and found the abomination of the desolation, 3 1/2 years, beasts, etc. which is rehashed in Revelations. Perhaps they were the Hal Lindsays of their day-- interpeting old prophecy and trying to retroject it into their own times!!

 

I still get a little worried about the topic of the temple-- but am getting better about it. This was another of the big gun end time issues in my church. For me as long as there is no temple, I don't have to worry. So when I think that someday a temple could be rebuilt, it makes me nervous in the sense that I have to address this head on. The bible does not talk specifically about a third temple-- as anytime temples are mentioned, there is one currently standing (some will argue that Revelations was written after the 2nd temple was destroyed, but that is unconfirmed). But just reading the bible made me think more about the temples that existed in the past. They were constantly being plundered and conquered, and ultimately destroyed-- some would say this was due to the unbelief of Israel, but I think it was because it was just another building. I mean, wouldn't it have been more impressive if Yahweh sent lightning bolts down anytime some unauthorized individual entered the holy areas? Why let two temples get completely destroyed? Isn't it more likely that life rolled on and excuses had to be made when bad guys were allowed to do bad things to the priests and the temple? More than likely, if there ever was to be a third temple built, it would just be another source of contention in the Middle East. Endtimers would use it as fulfilled prophecy but would it really be? Or is it just another manipulation of scriptures.

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The Daniel business does not really concern me all that much because I agree that everything addressed in it was regarding a time in the past. Aniochous (I am sure that is spelled wrong, but am too lazy to look up the correct spelling!)defiled the temple and if I remember right ruled for around 3 1/2 years. I recently read that the writer of Daniel was trying reconcile the previous prophecy of one of the elder prophets--Jeremiah I think, that had received the original vision that talked about 7 years or 70 years and then Isareal would rule the earth. That did not happen so Daniel asked the lord for clarification-- it became 7 heptads of years or the 490 years that it is now. The author of Daniel fully thought all of the prophecies were coming to pass in his day-- with all of the awful things happening-- but of course he was wrong. The end did not come. So, when the last writers of the bible were looking for informaiton as to what would happen in the end days, they looked to the scriptures of Daniel and found the abomination of the desolation, 3 1/2 years, beasts, etc. which is rehashed in Revelations. Perhaps they were the Hal Lindsays of their day-- interpeting old prophecy and trying to retroject it into their own times!!

 

I still get a little worried about the topic of the temple-- but am getting better about it. This was another of the big gun end time issues in my church. For me as long as there is no temple, I don't have to worry. So when I think that someday a temple could be rebuilt, it makes me nervous in the sense that I have to address this head on. The bible does not talk specifically about a third temple-- as anytime temples are mentioned, there is one currently standing (some will argue that Revelations was written after the 2nd temple was destroyed, but that is unconfirmed). But just reading the bible made me think more about the temples that existed in the past. They were constantly being plundered and conquered, and ultimately destroyed-- some would say this was due to the unbelief of Israel, but I think it was because it was just another building. I mean, wouldn't it have been more impressive if Yahweh sent lightning bolts down anytime some unauthorized individual entered the holy areas? Why let two temples get completely destroyed? Isn't it more likely that life rolled on and excuses had to be made when bad guys were allowed to do bad things to the priests and the temple? More than likely, if there ever was to be a third temple built, it would just be another source of contention in the Middle East. Endtimers would use it as fulfilled prophecy but would it really be? Or is it just another manipulation of scriptures.

 

But the thing is, when you have groups of people who WANT to see the temple rebuilt so they can PROVE biblical prophecy.......if it were rebuilt that would not prove biblical prophecy. It would prove that certain religious groups are motivated.

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The Daniel business does not really concern me all that much because I agree that everything addressed in it was regarding a time in the past. Aniochous (I am sure that is spelled wrong, but am too lazy to look up the correct spelling!)defiled the temple and if I remember right ruled for around 3 1/2 years. I recently read that the writer of Daniel was trying reconcile the previous prophecy of one of the elder prophets--Jeremiah I think, that had received the original vision that talked about 7 years or 70 years and then Isareal would rule the earth. That did not happen so Daniel asked the lord for clarification-- it became 7 heptads of years or the 490 years that it is now. The author of Daniel fully thought all of the prophecies were coming to pass in his day-- with all of the awful things happening-- but of course he was wrong. The end did not come. So, when the last writers of the bible were looking for informaiton as to what would happen in the end days, they looked to the scriptures of Daniel and found the abomination of the desolation, 3 1/2 years, beasts, etc. which is rehashed in Revelations. Perhaps they were the Hal Lindsays of their day-- interpeting old prophecy and trying to retroject it into their own times!!

 

I still get a little worried about the topic of the temple-- but am getting better about it. This was another of the big gun end time issues in my church. For me as long as there is no temple, I don't have to worry. So when I think that someday a temple could be rebuilt, it makes me nervous in the sense that I have to address this head on. The bible does not talk specifically about a third temple-- as anytime temples are mentioned, there is one currently standing (some will argue that Revelations was written after the 2nd temple was destroyed, but that is unconfirmed). But just reading the bible made me think more about the temples that existed in the past. They were constantly being plundered and conquered, and ultimately destroyed-- some would say this was due to the unbelief of Israel, but I think it was because it was just another building. I mean, wouldn't it have been more impressive if Yahweh sent lightning bolts down anytime some unauthorized individual entered the holy areas? Why let two temples get completely destroyed? Isn't it more likely that life rolled on and excuses had to be made when bad guys were allowed to do bad things to the priests and the temple? More than likely, if there ever was to be a third temple built, it would just be another source of contention in the Middle East. Endtimers would use it as fulfilled prophecy but would it really be? Or is it just another manipulation of scriptures.

 

But the thing is, when you have groups of people who WANT to see the temple rebuilt so they can PROVE biblical prophecy.......if it were rebuilt that would not prove biblical prophecy. It would prove that certain religious groups are motivated.

 

Precisely.

 

But when one has a fear it is an emotional thing and emotions can overshadow logic. But I believe that if one immerses themselves with logical thought that eventually the logic will overcome the emotions. That's what I hope everyone can achieve when it comes to "end-times" issues.

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It is extremely difficult to recognize one's bias when that bias is in full swing. Indeed, I really didn't recognize it in myself until after I was freed from Christianity and thereby freed my mind from the bias that I described. It is why it is so difficult to get through to true believers.

 

Ditto!

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Yes, that is another very good point. I get extremely irritated when I hear these so-called christians encouraging a rebuilt temple-- so that they can see the end of the world. If you look over the entire history of the Temple Mount, the Jews have not really had "ownership" of this land for very long. It has been owned by the Bablylonians, the Romans, and the Muslims much longer than the Jews-- yet the constant cry is that they should be entitled to this land. The Muslims have had the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount for a very long time, and it should never be destroyed just because someone thinks something else should be built there. For the good of the entire world, this area should be left alone-- because if Israel did start trying to take over this land, the Muslim world would be outraged and who knows what would happen. Additionally, with Eygpt in flux, Israel may no longer have the luxury of calling the shots much longer. They should have been a little less selfish because they may end up paying dearly for not working well with the Palestinians, etc.

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Precisely.

 

But when one has a fear it is an emotional thing and emotions can overshadow logic. But I believe that if one immerses themselves with logical thought that eventually the logic will overcome the emotions. That's what I hope everyone can achieve when it comes to "end-times" issues.

 

Right. I'm not denying the validity of anybody's emotions here. They are all valid. But I am trying to interject my own thoughts as I have worked through a lot of these emotions and thoughts as well. Maybe my thoughts can help someone along the way.

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Yes, that is another very good point. I get extremely irritated when I hear these so-called christians encouraging a rebuilt temple-- so that they can see the end of the world. If you look over the entire history of the Temple Mount, the Jews have not really had "ownership" of this land for very long. It has been owned by the Bablylonians, the Romans, and the Muslims much longer than the Jews-- yet the constant cry is that they should be entitled to this land. The Muslims have had the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount for a very long time, and it should never be destroyed just because someone thinks something else should be built there. For the good of the entire world, this area should be left alone-- because if Israel did start trying to take over this land, the Muslim world would be outraged and who knows what would happen. Additionally, with Eygpt in flux, Israel may no longer have the luxury of calling the shots much longer. They should have been a little less selfish because they may end up paying dearly for not working well with the Palestinians, etc.

 

Yes, it's funny when you are in this, you can't see any of the logic of it. It's as if Palestinian people are second class or no class at all. All that matter is "God's view" of them. And, if you believe the bible is "God's Word" you don't have much hope of seeing it otherwise.

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