Top Ten Reasons Not To Fear Biblical End-times Scenarios

[Overcame Faith]

 

 

Precisely.

 

But when one has a fear it is an emotional thing and emotions can overshadow logic. But I believe that if one immerses themselves with logical thought that eventually the logic will overcome the emotions. That's what I hope everyone can achieve when it comes to "end-times" issues.

 

Right. I'm not denying the validity of anybody's emotions here. They are all valid. But I am trying to interject my own thoughts as I have worked through a lot of these emotions and thoughts as well. Maybe my thoughts can help someone along the way.

 

I hope I didn't come off as accusing you of not being sensitive to others' emotions. I can tell that you are and I am sure people appreciate your efforts and insights. I wrote the part about fear not to you, but to those who endure the fear hoping to encourage them.

[freespirit]

Precisely.

 

But when one has a fear it is an emotional thing and emotions can overshadow logic. But I believe that if one immerses themselves with logical thought that eventually the logic will overcome the emotions. That's what I hope everyone can achieve when it comes to "end-times" issues.

 

Right. I'm not denying the validity of anybody's emotions here. They are all valid. But I am trying to interject my own thoughts as I have worked through a lot of these emotions and thoughts as well. Maybe my thoughts can help someone along the way.

 

I hope I didn't come off as accusing you of not being sensitive to others' emotions. I can tell that you are and I am sure people appreciate your efforts and insights. I wrote the part about fear not to you, but to those who endure the fear hoping to encourage them.

 

Alright. I wasn't sure and just wanted to clarify. We'll get to know each other! I am really enjoying this board so far. I wanted a board that was active and not one where you post and wonder if anybody is out there! I am heading out to work shortly, but have been enjoying the conversations.

[Overcame Faith]

Reason Number 5.

 

The extravagant plans and schemes set out for all to see the alleged details of the “end-times” are neither smart nor necessary.

 

World War II was not won only through troop advancements, tank deployments, naval warfare, and bombs dropped from airplanes. There were many important things which went on behind the scenes which allowed the allies to win that terrible war. For example, the German government used a machine referred to as Enigma to encrypt important messages. The code was virtually unbreakable and so Germany could communicate top secret war plans without fear that her enemies would learn them. But what the Germans did not know was that there was a group in Poland who, prior to the 1939 German invasion of Poland, learned how to build and, in fact, built an Enigma machine and so could decode important German communications. Unfortunately, this did not help Poland escape the German invasion. But the Poles passed the machine on to the British who used it to their definite benefit during the ensuing war.

 

One of the most important elements of warfare is secrecy. It is foolhardy to let one’s invasion plans be known to one’s enemy who, like the British, could take advantage of the knowledge and thwart the plans. Yet this is exactly what the end-timers would have us believe that god is doing with his end-times scenario.

 

According to the end-timers, every facet of the end-time plans are laid out very plainly with the ultimate goal of it all to throw Satan into the lake of burning sulfur. The whole strategy is out there for everyone to see and understand, according to them. In fact, there are millions of books which purport to set out all the details, right down to treaties, anti-Christs, battle plans, economic plans, and so on.

 

Let’s look at this whole thing from the Anti-Christ’s point of view. As best I can tell, Anti-Christ’s goal is to work with Satan, conquer the world, not through warfare, but through manipulation, and force all people to worship Satan. So Anti-Christ and Satan work out this plan to fake a treaty with Israel, gain control of the world, implement a single monetary system, force all people to get microchips so they can be controlled through the economic system, begin a new world religion in which Anti-Christ, i.e., Satan, will be worshipped, and thereby deprive god of the adoration he feels he has a right to from his creation.

 

This plan, however, has been compromised. God has learned of it. It’s sort of like the British having an Enigma machine during World War II. But the British were very smart with their Enigma machine. They kept the fact that they had one top secret and the Germans never knew it. The British knew that if the Germans learned they had an Enigma machine, they would feed the British false plans, abandon the use of Enigma completely, or some combination of both.

 

As it turns out, god is not as smart as the British. God broke Satan’s code so to speak and learned of his plans but blabbed it all over the world so Satan and the rest of us knew that he knew exactly what Satan was going to do. But god didn’t stop there; he also let out his plans to counter Satan’s plans. He made it very public and very well known.

 

So now the next move is Satan’s. Will Satan, knowing that god knows his plans and knowing god’s plans to counter his plans, continue on with his original plans? Would you? The answer is an obvious no. Of course you would not continue on with your plans if you knew that your enemy knew of your plans and you knew what your enemy’s plans were for countering your plans. You would scrub the whole thing and begin anew.

 

This whole end-times scenario requires you to believe that both god and Satan are absolute fools. You must believe that god, who knows of Satan’s plans, would let Satan know that he knows. And you must further believe that god would be so stupid as to publish his own plans to counter Satan’s plans, thus giving Satan insights into his plans.

 

You must also believe that Satan is stupid. For Satan to go forward with his plans, knowing that god knows them and knowing that god has a winning strategy against those plans, he has to be the biggest fool of all time. It is as if he is handed a script and told that he must say and do the things on the script.

 

Even as a Christian, I thought of the absurdity of this. But since I had my faith and Christian biases, I brushed the thoughts aside. But not any longer. I can now see that this whole scenario is just plain juvenile. It would not even make a good work of fiction because both sides are so stupid to do the things they are doing. No one would believe that a god and a Satan figure could be so totally dumb.

 

But the stupidity does not stop there. If the bible is true, then at this very moment god has the power to vanquish Satan to the lake of burning sulfur. There is no need for this long, drawn out scenario to play itself out. God could just do it now. And the very fact that he does not just do it now, proves to me that either: (1) god is a sadist who enjoys creating these long and involved scenarios which cause great pain and suffering for people; (2) god is not capable of stopping Satan now; or, more likely, (3) neither god nor Satan actually exist.

 

Learn a lesson from the British during World War II. No one who has secret plans of their enemy will reveal that fact to their enemy. And no enemy who knows its plans have been compromised would continue on with the original plans. It may seem simple, but simplicity sometimes reveals the most profound truths. There are no true end-times scenarios set forth in the Bible.

[ExFundiDCLawyer]

On the subject of rebuilding the temple: I can remember as a young teenager during the first gulf war, people at church almost giddy about the posibility of one of Saddam Hussein's scud missles destroying the Dome of the Rock Mosque in Jerusalem, thus allowing the temple to be rebuilt and "hastening the return of the lord". I wish I had possesed the critical thinking ability at that time to tell them what idiots they were.

 

I think what scares me more than christians affecting domestic policy is the amount to which bible literalism affects the foreign policy of the United States in regards to Isreal. Politicians are scared to death to stand up to the nuts in the religious right and take a stance that even has the remotest semblence of anti-Isreali connotations. Its bad enought that bible literalism permeates our domestic policy, but when it comes to foreign policy and the immense destruction that can be done by nuclear states, it is downright terrifying.

[Overcame Faith]

On the subject of rebuilding the temple: I can remember as a young teenager during the first gulf war, people at church almost giddy about the posibility of one of Saddam Hussein's scud missles destroying the Dome of the Rock Mosque in Jerusalem, thus allowing the temple to be rebuilt and "hastening the return of the lord". I wish I had possesed the critical thinking ability at that time to tell them what idiots they were.

 

I think what scares me more than christians affecting domestic policy is the amount to which bible literalism affects the foreign policy of the United States in regards to Isreal. Politicians are scared to death to stand up to the nuts in the religious right and take a stance that even has the remotest semblence of anti-Isreali connotations. Its bad enought that bible literalism permeates our domestic policy, but when it comes to foreign policy and the immense destruction that can be done by nuclear states, it is downright terrifying.

 

You make excellent points here. I watched the video that freespirit recommended yesterday and during one of the interviews a Christian said that during the first gulf war they had hoped that one of those scud missiles would have taken out the Dome of the Rock so the temple could be built. Just sick -- and frightening that people have that mentality.

 

And I agree about our foreign policy. There is no doubt that fundamentalist Christians have an enormous impact on our foreign policy as it affects Israel. And their reasoning is purely a religious one - that Israel is sanctioned by god and any country who does not support Israel the way that they believe it should be supported will suffer punishment from god. And it is this kind of thinking that has directed our foreign policy as it relates to Israel.

[freespirit]

On the subject of rebuilding the temple: I can remember as a young teenager during the first gulf war, people at church almost giddy about the posibility of one of Saddam Hussein's scud missles destroying the Dome of the Rock Mosque in Jerusalem, thus allowing the temple to be rebuilt and "hastening the return of the lord". I wish I had possesed the critical thinking ability at that time to tell them what idiots they were.

 

I think what scares me more than christians affecting domestic policy is the amount to which bible literalism affects the foreign policy of the United States in regards to Isreal. Politicians are scared to death to stand up to the nuts in the religious right and take a stance that even has the remotest semblence of anti-Isreali connotations. Its bad enought that bible literalism permeates our domestic policy, but when it comes to foreign policy and the immense destruction that can be done by nuclear states, it is downright terrifying.

 

You make excellent points here. I watched the video that freespirit recommended yesterday and during one of the interviews a Christian said that during the first gulf war they had hoped that one of those scud missiles would have taken out the Dome of the Rock so the temple could be built. Just sick -- and frightening that people have that mentality.

 

And I agree about our foreign policy. There is no doubt that fundamentalist Christians have an enormous impact on our foreign policy as it affects Israel. And their reasoning is purely a religious one - that Israel is sanctioned by god and any country who does not support Israel the way that they believe it should be supported will suffer punishment from god. And it is this kind of thinking that has directed our foreign policy as it relates to Israel.

 

Glad you got a chance to watch that video. I had never really thought that much about foreign policy until I watched it. And then I suddenly realized how huge it is.

 

 

 

[stryper]

Re: Reason 5

 

 

This leaking of plans has also lead to grand tradition of Pin the tail on the Anti-christ. Popes to presidents to Hitler have been called the antichrist. Hell even compteting Protestent sects have accused each other of it.

 

here's a humorus list

 

http://www.cracked.com/article_16970_5-world-leaders-who-were-accused-being-antichrist.html

 

 

Also, as with most things in religion, the myth has grown over time.

 

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/27850/Antichrist

 

I also say well done post

[freespirit]

I think what seems to be history=prophecy is actually years of Christians tweaking history to FIT prophecy.

[Dibllsmek]

B-b-but God is God, he can do anything!

 

Don't use logic!

 

 

But in all seriousness, I liked it.

[Ripley]

The topic of being fearful of end-time scenarios is a recurring theme on this site. It is an understandable fear given the intensity with which so many Christians believe in it all. The great success of the “Left Behind” series is a testament to how pervasive such thinking is within our society.

 

End-times theology invokes almost all elements of Christian theology and does so in a very frightening manner. It posits that god can see into the future and that he enlisted prophets to warn others about future events. It promises via the rapture that Christians will not be involved in the carnage that is to come, but woe to those whose timing in accepting Jesus is not perfect because they will be “left behind” to face almost unutterable horror. It transforms Jesus from a forgiving and loving son of god to the vengeful judge who through the simple act of breaking seven seals unleashes terrible destruction and painful deaths. It pits good against evil with Satan taking an active role in deceiving people. Perhaps worst of all is that the simple mistake of taking the “mark of the beast” no matter whether all one was trying to do was to feed one’s children will result in an eternity in hell along with those same children.

 

Having said all of that, I want to make it clear that none of it is true. And I mean none of it. The way I want to try to help those who need help in this area is to give the top ten reasons why I am convinced with 100% certainty that none of it is true. There are, of course, reasons in addition to what I will list, but these are mine.

 

By starting this thread, I am inviting those of you who would like to discuss any of it in more detail to post your thoughts, concerns, and questions. Perhaps together we can make some progress in coming to the truth and helping to convince you of the truth that just might help set you free from this real fear you may be feeling.

 

I will post the Top Ten Reasons Not to Fear Biblical End-Times Scenarios part by part since I do not have the time to write it all out and post it all at once. I will begin by posting Reasons 10, 9, and 8. I will post others later as I am able.

 

Reason Number 10.

 

Even all Christians do not accept the interpretation of Revelation, Daniel and other books of the Bible which end-timers use to spread their message of fear.

 

When you really start looking into what the end-timers say, you will find that even among Christians there is vehement disagreement. There is a debate among end-timers on whether there is a pre-wrath rapture, a post-wrath rapture, or whether there is a rapture at all. They cannot agree on issues such as whether Jesus’ alleged prophecy in Matthew 24 refers to our times or, as some Christians say, whether it dealt only with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE by the Romans. And not all Christians agree that Revelation deals with future events at all. Some Christian scholars will admit that the Book of Revelation was meant as an encouragement to first century Christians who were being persecuted and that the infamous Mark of the Beast, 666, was Caesar Nero.

 

What many end-time preachers like to make you think is that they somehow have unraveled the mystery of end-time events and that god or the holy spirit has allowed them to interpret Revelation, Daniel and other apocalyptic books in the light of our times. But take the time to listen to these guys and listen very closely. I really mean this. Listen to the likes of Hal Lindsey, Grant Jefferies, and others. You will find them disagreeing with each other all the time. The very fact that Christians do not agree across the board is solid evidence that no god has provided any information to anyone about end-times issues. Because if god truly intended to warn us about something so horrible as what the end-timers claim is coming, doesn’t it make sense that he would do it in a way that would be unambiguous?

 

Reason Number 9.

 

There are certain passages in Revelation which are simply physically impossible to happen in reality.

 

Quoted below is my favorite example of how some of what is said in Revelation is simply impossible to happen.

 

13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

 

Revelation 9:13-16.

 

In case you need help with the math, the number of mounted troops is 200,000,000. End-timers love to point to China and say how China today boasts of an army of 200,000,000 and thus uses that as one of the signs that the end is near. The scenario they like to portray is that everybody is ready for this great battle of Armageddon and that, among the other armies, this Chinese Army of 200,000,000 comes onto the field of battle and then Jesus halts the whole thing and comes down in judgment.

 

I have actually seen Armageddon. In 1979, my Navy ship went to Israel and I went on a tour. One of the places that our tour guide took us was to Armageddon. Yes, it is an actual place in Israel. It is a piece of land surrounded by mountains with a pass through the mountains to the flat area. I can tell you from my personal experience that the place could not hold 200,000,000 soldiers.

 

But set aside for a moment the impossibility of 200,000,000 soldiers plus the other armies to assemble there and just think about deploying 200,000,000 soldiers. That is the equivalent of two-thirds of the population of the entire United States. Anyone who has been involved in hurricane evacuations knows what it is like just to get several hundred thousand people out of a city. It is terribly difficult. It would be impossible to equip, train, and then deploy the equivalent of two-thirds of the population of the entire United States onto a battlefield.

 

Besides all of that, China does not boast an army of 200,000,000. It’s a sizable army, several million, but nowhere near 200,000,000. Here’s an article to read:

 

http://www.defpro.co...s/details/9524/

 

Reason Number 8.

 

The alleged prophecies are so vague as to be open to endless interpretation and re-interpretation.

 

Think about this carefully. If god really wanted to warn you about upcoming end-time events, wouldn’t he do so in a way you and everyone else would have no reasonable doubts about the truth? Of course he would if he were just. So let’s take a look at a few examples of what is supposed to act as a warning to you that we are living in the end-times:

 

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

Matthew 24:3-14

 

Read this passage very carefully. It is one that end-timers love to point to in an effort to convince people that we are living in the end-times and that Jesus is about to return. But each and every one of these so-called signs of the times is so vague as to apply to any time in the last two thousand years, with one possible exception which I will address separately. Saying there will be wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, and false Messiahs is saying nothing. I could make those predictions for this decade and I would be absolutely correct. I know this with virtual certainty and the reason I know it is that the past is my guide. Now show me something written in the year 90 that says specifically that Germany will invade Poland in 1939 thus leading to a world war in which millions will be killed and you have my attention. But something this general and vague means nothing.

 

It is verse 14 which is the only verse that is arguably not vague. “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” The churches I am familiar with use this verse as an incentive to evangelize all over the world as a way to usher in the return of Jesus. To them it is a simple formula: Preach the gospel all over the world and Jesus returns.

 

Even though I said that verse 14 was not vague, you should read it carefully to make sure you understand it. It can be broken down as follows:

 

1. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations…

 

2. …and then the end will come.

 

When viewed as I have broken it down, we can see the true meaning of the words. The first part which says, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations….” is what must happen before the second part can happen, “…and then the end will come.” However, nowhere in the verse are we told how long after the gospel is preached in the whole world that the end will come. So the gospel could be preached all over the world to satisfy the first part of Matthew 24:14 and thousands of years could pass before the end will come. I believe that this is a fair reading of the passage. And in a fair reading, it has no predictive value whatsoever. So even if some preacher proclaims that the gospel has been presented to the entire world, that means nothing according to a fair reading of Matthew 24:14.

 

 

Is John's Apocalypse unique?

 

The Revelation of John, the Apocalypse, also must be looked at from the perspective that it's not the only such piece of apocalyptic literature that we have. In fact there are lots of apocalypses. Some thirty or forty of them from the ancient world that we know by name and we can actually read still to this day. ... So when the author of the Book of Revelation sat down to write, there was a very strong paradigm of what revelation literature should look like and sound like. The stock of characters, the list of images, the symbols one uses are pretty commonplace, if you're in that environment.

 

How exactly did Babylon become equated with Rome?

 

 

 

In the prophetic books and the historical books of the Old Testament, Babylon is described primarily as the one who destroyed Jerusalem. And for John, writing after 70, Babylon then becomes a code name for Rome, because it was the second city to destroy the Temple. ... "Babylon" is the most common phrase that John uses to refer to Rome, and at first he introduces that term very briefly and indirectly. And the place where it's elaborated is Chapter 17, the vision of the Great Harlot. Babylon is a city with overtones of imperial might and destructiveness, conqueror of other cities. Then you have the harlot with her golden cup, her purple, or scarlet clothing, her jewels sitting on seven hills. He hints that it's Rome in several ways. One, that she sits on seven hills, and Rome was famous as the city of seven hills, and several times in chapters 13 and 17 it's talked about as ruling all the peoples of the earth. And there was only one possibility in John's time, that has to be Rome. ...

 

http://www.pbs.org/w...revelation.html

 

 

Revelations was of dubious importance to early Church fathers. In fact, it barely made it into the NT canon.

 

A number of Church Fathers weighed in on the authorship of Revelation. Justin Martyr avows his belief in its apostolic origin. Irenaeus (178) assumes it as a conceded point. At the end of the 2nd century, we find it accepted at Antioch, by Theophilus, and in Africa by Tertullian. At the beginning of the 3rd century, it is adopted by Clement of Alexandria and by Origen, later by Methodius, Cyprian, and Lactantius. Dionysius of Alexandria (247) rejected it, upon doctrinal rather than critical grounds. Eusebius (315) suspended his judgment, hesitating between the external and internal evidence. Some canons, especially in the Eastern Church, rejected the book, while most others included it.

 

WIKI

 

 

Not everyone has been convinced of the value or the divine nature of the Book of Revelation. It is a fact that most biblical authorities would agree on, that the book of Revelation barely made it into the Bible! It was written around the end of the first century and yet some parts of the church did not accept it as being a legitimate part of the Bible for another five or six hundred years!

 

When Martin Luther translated the Bible from Latin into German, he was tempted to leave the book of Revelation OUT, saying, “Christ is not taught or known in it.”

 

SOURCE: Redeeming the Book of Revelation: Revelation Chapter 1 a sermon by Scott B. Martin

http://64.233.167.10...p;client=safari

 

An Evangelical Christian theologian, P.N. Benware, describes three interpretations that theologians have made about Revelation:

* Allegorical approach: The events in Revelation will not happen literally. They are to be interpreted figuratively and symbolically. This approach leads to a great variety of conflicting scenarios.

* Historical approach: Most of the events in Revelation have already happened, perhaps during the persecution of Christians during the reign of Emperors Nero or Domitian before Christianity was tolerated early in the 4th century CE.

* Futuristic approach: This is the approach taken by almost all Fundamentalists and other Evangelical Christians. The events in Revelation have yet to occur, but are anticipated in our very near future. The end times will unfold exactly as specified when the world as we know it comes to an end.

 

To this list, a other options present themselves:

 

* Morale booster: The book was written at a time of intermittent persecutions of Christians by the Roman Empire. Its purpose may have been simply to encourage Christians at that difficult time. It is typical of apocalyptic writings common among Jewish and Christian writers during the first century CE.

 

According to James Kelhoffer, an assistant professor of theological studies at Saint Louis University:

 

"Many people who have interpreted the rich symbolism and mythology of [Revelation] have read into it to reflect on a world cataclysm within their lifetime. It greatly misunderstands ancient Jewish and Christian prophets who always talk about apocalypses within their own time, not several centuries hence. 14

 

* Meaningless: The book is made up of visions experienced by the author. They might have been based on one or more nightmares that the author experienced. They might have been induced by eating hallucinogenic material (mushrooms, cacti, certain types of moulds. etc.) They might have been induced during an ecstatic spiritual state. In other words, the writing may be devoid of any theological meaning. It may be as fictional and meaningless as the images of the anti-semitic nun, St. Anne Catherine Emmerich (1774-1824), whose visions formed such a major part of the movie "The Passion of the Christ."

 

tp://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5b.htm

[Discern]

I grew up with the typical fundamentalist pre-trib rapture indoctrination. Patty and Jerry scared the crap out of me in A Distant Thunder. The rapture no longer scares me, but the music from those movies sure as hell does haha

 

Anyway, many years later I tried to follow the bread crumbs in the bible that proved the rapture. I kept running into dead ends and a million interpretations for the same scripture. At the end of the day, the only scripture I felt I could rely on was the one in I Thess (they which are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord). But trying to distinguish that scripture as a separate event from the actual second coming also proved to be a task. In the end I concluded there really wasn't much biblical support for the Rapture. Also, no one seems to conclusively know what Jesus was talking about either with the "two men in a field" passage.

I also saw that a somewhat rapture expert in the States named Perry Stone released a 6-DVD set called "Rapture Revelation" where he 'proves' the rapture. My thoughts were, if it takes an entire 6 DVDs to prove a doctrine is legit, then there's probably not much proof at all.

 

Just before I rejected christianity altogether, I figured in my head that if the rapture actually happened and I got left behind, then at least it was PROOF that God existed. To me, that was worth 7 years of tribulation. What kind of God makes such an important event as his second coming so hard for his followers to figure out anyway?

 

 

 

With regards to the temple being rebuilt, I was actually just reading about this on a jewish apologetics site. They actually explain why it's so difficult to whip up another Temple, even if they had the land to themselves:

 

http://www.beingjewi...ed/rebuild.html

 

Even if we received the consent of every Muslim in the world to raze or move the various Mosques from the Temple Mount, we still would not be permitted to rebuild the Holy Temple just yet. Here's why:

 

Nowadays it is forbidden to enter the precise area where the Holy Temple used to be, because we are all ritually impure. Whoever does so is violating a Biblical Prohibition punishable by death. In order for any of us to be able to become ritually pure, we would need the ablutions of the ashes of a red cow administered by a Cohen (Priest).

 

Let us assume we have performed this ritual, and are now pure. Now we need an altar. Just any altar wouldn't do, it must be in the Temple area. Therefore we must rebuild the altar. (I'll bypass the problems with that, as they are too complicated to explain.)

 

The next problem is the location of the Altar. The Law is very precise about just where the Holy Altar must be located. It is forbidden to place the Altar anywhere else. When they built the Second Holy Temple, they had to find reliable witnesses who could testify to the exact spot. They found three such witnesses, the prophets Haggai, Zephaniah and Malachi, but we don't have any prophets or witnesses today. Thus, until a prophet (we assume that it will probably be Elijah) comes and tells us where to build the Altar (among many other things we need to know first), we cannot build the Holy Altar. The answer to this I shall discuss later, Hashem [the Lord] willing.

 

Without the Holy Altar it is forbidden to bring sacrifices.

 

Let us assume we were able to build the Altar, properly, and in the precise location. We would still need a Cohen [Priest] whose genealogy can be determined absolutely and verified. The answer to this problem I shall discuss later, Hashem willing.

 

Our next problem is that we must appoint a High Priest, or all Service is forbidden. To appoint a High Priest, we need a Sanhedrin, which is a body of 71 ordained rabbis acting as the Supreme Court of the People Of Israel. We cannot assemble a Sanhedrin, because the Sanhedrin must consist of rabbis ordained with the Mosaic Ordination, which was transmitted from Rabbi to Rabbi since Moses. However, the Mosaic Ordination ceased to exist in the year 358 C.E. because of the persecutions Constantinius perpetrated upon the Jews. This too, I shall answer later, Hashem willing.

 

There are yet other problems, such as Laws involving the Priestly Garments, the exact measurements of the Temple area, and many, many more, all of which demand as yet undiscovered answers.

 

About halfway through all the reasons, I'm thinking it's NEVER going to happen.

 

Besides, it's like what one of the previous posters mentioned. God already allowed two temples to be destroyed, it can't be THAT holy. Whatever happened to the God that flipped out at the guy carrying the Ark of the Covenant and killed him on the spot for holding it wrong? Surely the temple deserves such protection?

[Kris]

Overcame Faith, I look forward to your top five reasons not to fear.......

[Overcame Faith]

Overcame Faith, I look forward to your top five reasons not to fear.......

 

I hope to have reason number 4 completed and posted by mid-week.

[LivingLife]

Just before I rejected christianity altogether, I figured in my head that if the rapture actually happened and I got left behind, then at least it was PROOF that God existed. To me, that was worth 7 years of tribulation. What kind of God makes such an important event as his second coming so hard for his followers to figure out anyway?

Oh they have a verse for that "no man knoweth except the Son of man" (paraphrased)

 

Problem is that his first incarnation is questionable anyway and till they can prove that w/o a shadow of a doubt, then his second coming is moot.

 

It is just vain hope and wishful thinking. The socio political scenario has everyone believing that this life sucks big time and so do "you" and thus they need the illusion of something better in the hereafter, the best and longest mindfuck scam ever.

[ExFundiDCLawyer]

Just before I rejected christianity altogether, I figured in my head that if the rapture actually happened and I got left behind, then at least it was PROOF that God existed. To me, that was worth 7 years of tribulation. What kind of God makes such an important event as his second coming so hard for his followers to figure out anyway?

Oh they have a verse for that "no man knoweth except the Son of man" (paraphrased)

 

Problem is that his first incarnation is questionable anyway and till they can prove that w/o a shadow of a doubt, then his second coming is moot.

 

It is just vain hope and wishful thinking. The socio political scenario has everyone believing that this life sucks big time and so do "you" and thus they need the illusion of something better in the hereafter, the best and longest mindfuck scam ever.

 

I had a political economy professor who made an interesting analogy that I had never been exposed to before. He looked at world religions from the perspective of the social-economic status of those who developed the religion. In the case of judiasm/Christianity, they were developed by people who suffered at the hands of neighboring nations, often in slavery. From that perspective, the idea of "life sucks, but we will be rewarded in heaven" makes perfect sense. I was still a "fundi" when I took that class, but it was one of many things that helped to push me to a broader perspective and eventually to rejecting christianity altogether.

[Kris]

Oops-- I think I should have said that I was looking forward to your top "4" reasons-- As much as this is a somewhat horrifying topic for me to poke around in, it is really good for people like me because I get to see how others think about these scary topics and is a big help when I am trying to reason through my fears. For those of you that were fortunate enough not to be exposed to end-time fears or are able to easily dismiss them, you really have no idea how consuming these fears can be.

 

I told Overcame Faith one time that it was like when you hear people say-- "Don't worry, it's not the end of the world", but for people like me, it is!! That is our fear-- it can be a very difficult hole to work yourself out of, and with all of the wierdness that surrounds topics like the endtimes, you can hear so much to keep you worried--belief or not. I can tell you that this was the biggest reason that I got into church to begin with, and the biggest reason why I had to quit the church-- because I just could not take it anymore. No holy spirt protected me from my fears, and I got no relief when I called out to god to take these fears from me. I tried to talk to people in my church about my fears and was brushed off. I had to come to an ex-christian website to get any kind of help-- isn't that funny?

[Overcame Faith]

Oops-- I think I should have said that I was looking forward to your top "4" reasons-- As much as this is a somewhat horrifying topic for me to poke around in, it is really good for people like me because I get to see how others think about these scary topics and is a big help when I am trying to reason through my fears. For those of you that were fortunate enough not to be exposed to end-time fears or are able to easily dismiss them, you really have no idea how consuming these fears can be.

 

I told Overcame Faith one time that it was like when you hear people say-- "Don't worry, it's not the end of the world", but for people like me, it is!! That is our fear-- it can be a very difficult hole to work yourself out of, and with all of the wierdness that surrounds topics like the endtimes, you can hear so much to keep you worried--belief or not. I can tell you that this was the biggest reason that I got into church to begin with, and the biggest reason why I had to quit the church-- because I just could not take it anymore. No holy spirt protected me from my fears, and I got no relief when I called out to god to take these fears from me. I tried to talk to people in my church about my fears and was brushed off. I had to come to an ex-christian website to get any kind of help-- isn't that funny?

 

The fears are real even though the reasons for the fears may not be. That's what's so tough about it. And with end-times fears, so many people believe that the reasons for the fears are real, and I mean some really intelligent and convincing people. And that makes it all the worse for people like you, Kris. But I am confident that you and others who share these fears can work your way past them and truly come to peace with the fact that the reason for fears of end-times issues are not real and therefore are not a true source of fear.

[Discern]

What kind of God makes such an important event as his second coming so hard for his followers to figure out anyway?

Oh they have a verse for that "no man knoweth except the Son of man" (paraphrased)

 

Yeah I was thinking of all the other events though. It's all so vague that people can't figure out if there's a pre/mid/post rapture or any rapture at all. They can't figure out if Revelation already happened or is still to come. Really, if you're a loving God then at least give people a fighting chance and make yourself clear.

[Overcame Faith]

Reason Number 4.

 

The establishment of the modern nation of Israel has no prophetic significance.

 

Before I get started with this discussion, I want to make something perfectly clear. I am emphatically not saying that the modern State of Israel is not a legitimate nation. Nor am I saying that it does not have the right to exist. I absolutely believe that Israel is legitimate and has a right to exist. But I do not base my opinion on any biblical claim whatsoever. Rather, I base my opinion on the United Nations which authorized the creation of the State of Israel with UN Resolution 181 which, in 1947, called for the creation of a Jewish State and a Palestinian State. And it was on May 14, 1948, when the British ended its mandate to oversee Palestine and left that the State of Israel was officially born pursuant to UN Resolution 181. Thus, it is pursuant to International Law that Israel is, and in the case of Palestine should be, legitimate today.

 

What I am speaking of is whether the creation of the State of Israel in 1948 has any significance from a purely biblical and prophetic standpoint. And it does not.

 

If you study end-times issues at all, you will find that the centerpiece of most end-times scenarios, and a major reason why so many people believe we are living in the end-times, is because of the birth of the State of Israel in 1948. The end-times scenarios may be vastly different depending on whom you ask, but generally they look to Old Testament prophecies which declare such things as that the Jewish people will be brought from all over the earth to return to their homeland. For example, consider this verse.

 

24 For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.

 

Ezekiel 36:24

 

Almost all end-times scenarios focus on Israel. Perhaps of most significance is the following passage from Matthew.

 

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

 

Matthew 24:32-35.

 

To the end-timers, the fig tree is Israel and the twigs and leaves coming out of the fig tree represent Israel becoming a nation in 1948. And to some, like Hal Lindsey back in the 1970s and early 1980s, the length of a generation, which he said was 40 years, meant that the end would come by 1988, though he was careful not to get too pinned down by his date setting so he can still sell his books in 2011. Of course, a little thing like 1988 coming and going doesn’t stop any of the end-timers. They just adjust, redefine, recalculate and they can twist and turn it all to suit their current needs.

 

The end-timers say that the establishment of the modern State of Israel is a requirement for end-times scenarios for any number of reasons. Take Daniel’s seventy sevens that I discussed earlier. The still to come seventieth week (or seven year period) requires both the existence of Israel and a temple to be built before the seventieth week can happen. But see my earlier discussion for a refutation of this point. In any event, according to these die-hard end-timers, all that remains for the seventieth week of Daniel is for the rebuilding of the Temple since Israel does, in fact, exist.

 

If one is inclined to believe all of this, it does seem quite remarkable that after some two thousand years, Israel came back to life in 1948 and many Jewish people did, in fact, return from all over the world to their homeland. And all of this was predicted in the Bible even before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE by the Romans. Just remarkable and a sure sign that the end is near. Or is it?

 

How remarkable is it that many Jewish people decided to create their own country? If we put it into historical context, it is not so remarkable. From the period of the late 1930s until the end of World War II, European Jews underwent one of the most horrible persecutions in world history. From all over Europe they were herded together and forced into labor and eventual deaths. The Nazi goal was nothing short of the complete extermination of all European Jews. Estimates of the number of Jewish victims of the Nazi holocaust hovers at around six million people. It was clear to the post World War II Jews that they needed a country of their own from which they could defend themselves from future harm.

 

And plans for the creation of that country had been in place since as early as 1917 with the British Balfour Declaration. This declaration which was of British origin was crafted in Britain before the end of World War I when Britain anticipated ruling a major portion of Palestine. The Balfour Declaration was a plan for the eventual establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. When the British gained control of portions of Palestine they were given a mandate by the League of Nations in 1922 to help the Jews build a national home. So it was natural that after World War II and with the terrible holocaust the Jews had faced and barely survived, it was to Palestine and the mandate of the British that they would go. And go they did and after about three years, established the State of Israel.

 

For further reading on the history of the State of Israel, click on the link below.

 

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

 

When viewed in its true historical perspective, it is clear that the establishment of modern Israel was not about religion. Rather, it was about Resolutions of the League of Nations, the British Government’s mandate, UN Resolutions, and the need for the Jewish people to have a homeland from which they could protect themselves from future attempts at their murder and destruction as a people. While it is true that the Jewish Zionists claimed the Jews’ alleged status as God’s people and God’s eternal promise was the ultimate justification for the creation of Israel, none of that came into play with the actual establishment of Israel.

 

The end-timers like to ignore history and claim that Israel’s birth in 1948 was some divine plan which would usher in the end-times. But to believe this was god’s plan is to believe in a cruel and terribly wrathful god who must have hated the Jews. Because to believe that god had his hand in the creation of Israel, one must believe that the Nazi holocaust played a part in this terrible plan since it was the holocaust, more than anything else that directly led to the creation of Israel.

 

So what the end-timers are saying is that god’s plan all along was to allow the terrible and cruel murder through gunshots, starvation, disease, overwork, strangulation, medical experimentation of the most horrible imaginable and, perhaps worst of all, the methodical use of gas chambers of some six million Jewish men, women, and children before he would allow them to return to Israel where they could see to their own self-defense. And then once they return to their homeland, to set into action some horrific plan of divine punishment and wrath in which these same Jews would not even be raptured away as the Christians supposedly will be. No, what all of this hoopla really is, though they deny it vehemently, is the Christians having their final stab at the Jews for the supposed murder of Jesus and their refusal to recognize him as their Messiah.

 

What a malicious god the end-timers envision. This would not be a god who loves the Jews and who sees them as his own people as so many of the end-timers so self-righteously proclaim when they call for the United States’ support for anything Israel wants to do, but a god who either actively participated in their destruction or at the very least stood by and allowed it to happen when he had to know it was coming. Can anyone really imagine for even a moment that this was some divine plan? If it was a divine plan, then woe to all of us because there is a divine psychotic maniac in charge of the universe. But I will tell you with complete confidence, don’t worry because there is no such maniac in charge and no god of the bible at all (which I will discuss in more detail in the near future).

 

If we get past everything I have discussed above which, I believe, adequately demonstrates that no god had anything whatsoever to do with the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, is there any truth to the end-timers’ claim that the creation of modern Israel was prophesied in the bible? My short answer is no. But I will explain.

 

To understand what I am about to say, you must understand some biblical history of the Hebrew people. I say biblical history for a reason. I am about to provide you with a short review of a part of the history of the Hebrew people as told in the Bible. For purposes of this discussion, we will assume that the biblical version is true, even though there are good reasons not to concede that point. But since we are looking at alleged prophecies, we will look at them from the eyes of believing Christians who accept the Bible as god’s truth. And what we will find is that even if we accept this history and these prophecies as true, modern day Israel is not the fulfillment of any of these prophecies. Not in the slightest.

 

The Hebrew people began with Abram who was told by god to leave his home and to go into a land that he would be shown and he would be made into a great nation. Exodus 12:1-3. Eventually Abram arrived at the land and god told him to look around because all he saw became his land and would eternally belong to all of his offspring. Exodus 13:14-18. After a rather long period of time, god established his covenant with Abram through a visible mark. And that mark was circumcision. Abram was circumcised and then his name was changed to Abraham and god again promised him all the land for all of his descendants. In addition, god changed Sarai’s name to Sarah and at the same time promised that she would be the mother of many nations through a son that she, in her old age, would bear. Genesis 17

 

Sarah gave birth to Abraham’s son, Isaac. And Isaac married and had a son named Jacob. Jacob, also known as Israel, had twelve sons as follows:

 

Jacob had twelve sons:

23 The sons of Leah:

Reuben the firstborn of Jacob,

Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar and Zebulun.

24 The sons of Rachel:

Joseph and Benjamin.

25 The sons of Rachel’s servant Bilhah:

Dan and Naphtali.

26 The sons of Leah’s servant Zilpah:

Gad and Asher.

 

Genesis 35:22-26.

 

Jacob and all his clan lived in the land god had promised to Abraham. However, Joseph, one of Jacob’s sons, was sold into slavery in Egypt by some of his brothers. After a number of years, the whole clan moved into Egypt where Joseph had great ties and connections and they all survived the famine that would otherwise have taken their lives. Genesis 37 and 39-50. While in Egypt the clan grew to great numbers, but eventually became slaves. Exodus 1.

 

A Hebrew named Moses, who had been adopted by the royal family of Egypt, was called on by god to deliver the Hebrews from bondage in Egypt. Exodus 2-3. After some difficulties with carrying out this mandate and ten plagues having been visited on Egypt, the King of Egypt finally relented and agreed to allow the Hebrew people to leave. Exodus 4-12.

 

There were 600,000 men who left with Moses along with an unknown number of women and children. Exodus 12:37. If we assume an equal number of women then we have at least 1,200,000 Hebrews. And then if we add in some children, say a third of the number of adults or 400,000, then we have the number of 1,600,000 Hebrews who exited Egypt. All of these people wondered in the desert region for forty years until, after Moses’ death, god allowed them to enter the land he had promised to Abraham, who was the progenitor the Hebrew people.

 

Once the Hebrew people were ready to take possession of the land that god said was theirs by their birthright, Joshua became the leader. Joshua led the Hebrew people to conquer the land and the Hebrew people settled it. They divided land according to the tribes which themselves were organized by their descent from the sons of Jacob. In other words, there were twelve tribes, one for each son of Jacob. The land was divided into twelve portions, but the tribe of Joseph was divided in two, elevating his two sons to the status of a tribal patriarchs and the descendants of these two sons were thus entitled to their own parcels of land. Thus, there were twelve parcels of land, divided among the recognized ten tribes and two newly created tribes from the tribe of Joseph, making twelve tribes with land. However, the Levites, being the priestly class, did not have their own territories. Rather, they lived among and were provided for by the other territorial tribes.

 

Eventually, the Hebrews enthroned a king, named Saul to rule over all of the territory of the Hebrews. Saul’s successor was David. Under David’s rule, often called the golden age of ancient Israel, all the Hebrew people were united, wealthy, and at the top of their game. After David’s death, his son Solomon ruled over a united Israel. With Solomon’s death, the new king was Rehoboam. 1 Kings 11:42-43.

 

But trouble crept up in the united kingdom of Israel. There was a rebellion against Rehoboam and the kingdom was split, with Judah remaining under the rule of Rehoboam and the remainder of Israel under the rule of the new king, Jeroboam. 1 Kings 12.

 

After a number of years, the northern Kingdom, known as Israel, was conquered by the Assyrians and the Hebrew people who lived in Israel were carried off and were lost to history. This left only Judah which was composed of the tribe of Judah, some Benjamites, and some Levites. It was in this situation that Jesus of Nazareth was supposedly born. The northern kingdom of Israel had been conquered, its land and people lost, and the southern kingdom of Judah still stood but with only those of the tribe of Judah, or Jews as they were called, some small number of Benjamites and some Levites who acted as priests.

 

With this biblical history in mind, let us look carefully at the prophecies of the Old Testament concerning Israel. Remember, Israel refers to the entire Kingdom as it existed under the rule of King David, with all the land intact and all of the Hebrew people, all tribes, present and accounted for.

 

I will refer to Ezekiel 37 for illustrative purposes. These are my favorite verses concerning “prophecies” about Israel.

 

1 The hand of the LORD was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

I said, “Sovereign LORD, you alone know.”

4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.’”

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.’”

15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

18 “When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

 

Ezekiel 37.

 

Read the above chapter from Ezekiel very carefully and it will become clear to you what the so-called “prophecy” is all about. It is about all of the original tribes of Israel being identified again, not just the tribe of Judah or the Jews, but all twelve tribes. Additionally, it is a “prophecy” about all of these to-be-identified tribes returning to the original Israel, with all of its land and original borders. Modern Israel’s borders fall far short of the original Biblical borders.

 

I could go through “prophecy” after “prophecy” about Israel and demonstrate the same thing to you. They are not “prophecies” about Jews returning to a small portion of the land that was formerly Biblical Israel at all. Rather, for anyone to claim in good faith that these “prophecies” have been fulfilled, they must demonstrate that all twelve tribes, including the lost tribes of Israel as recounted in the Bible, have somehow been identified, which is impossible, and then that all, not just part, but all of the land that belonged to Israel under King David’s rule is a part of Israel.

 

What is more, according to Ezekiel, David will be the king over this prophesied Israel composed of the original, identified tribes all inhabiting the original land. In fairness, one might claim that the passage means an identifiable descendant of David. Fair enough. But how would anyone possibly prove that they are a descendant of King David, if King David existed at all. This would be an insurmountable task all on its own.

 

The short of the matter is that the modern State of Israel is not the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament concerning the re-establishment of Israel. What is more, the fulfillment of these prophecies is impossible for the reasons stated above.

 

So rest easy. Though the modern State of Israel is a legitimate country, it is not in any way, shape, or form the country of Old Testament prophecies.

[Kris]

Good stuff OF--- you mentioned that the UN Declaration in 1917 called for a state for Israel AND a state for Palestine? Why are we still struggling with the State of Palestine then? I have to assume that some of this has to do with the Judeo-Christian philosophy of Israel having rights to all of the land. I have a sneaking suspision that Israel may end up being in some serious trouble over the next couple of years in the sense that there are many dynamics changing in the Middle East. I don't believe that Egypt will be in their corner as much as they have been in the past. I think that they should have made a two-state deal when they had a chance--but they were greedy. I think there is a strong possiblity that they may lose even more of their "biblical land" over time. If that happens, it just goes to show how invalid some of these biblical prophecies really can be.

[Overcame Faith]

Good stuff OF--- you mentioned that the UN Declaration in 1917 called for a state for Israel AND a state for Palestine? Why are we still struggling with the State of Palestine then? I have to assume that some of this has to do with the Judeo-Christian philosophy of Israel having rights to all of the land. I have a sneaking suspision that Israel may end up being in some serious trouble over the next couple of years in the sense that there are many dynamics changing in the Middle East. I don't believe that Egypt will be in their corner as much as they have been in the past. I think that they should have made a two-state deal when they had a chance--but they were greedy. I think there is a strong possiblity that they may lose even more of their "biblical land" over time. If that happens, it just goes to show how invalid some of these biblical prophecies really can be.

 

Actually, the UN declaration was in 1947, but that is a trivial issue.

 

But your issue is a really good one. Yes, it did call for both a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. That is why I support the creation of a full-fledged Palestinian state which would be just as legitimate under international law as the State of Israel and that, frankly, is the solution to the incredibly difficult problem there. As to why this hasn't happened, I'm not well versed enough to provide a meaningful answer. But I do know enough to know that the fundamentalist Christians in America who so vocally support Israel, would never support requiring Israel to give up land in order to allow the establishment of a Palestinian state. And, as you know, America has a great influence over these issues and the fundamentalist Christians have a great influence over America's position on these issues. So, at least part of what is keeping a Palestinian state from being created is the fundamentalist Christians' incorrect belief that modern day Israel is the fulfillment of prophecies. I hate to say it, but those guys would love to see some kind of all-out war develop involving Israel to help Israel to have even more autonomy (assuming they would win), thus build a temple and do all the other things they see as necessary for end-times issues to arise, and thus usher in Jesus' return. That's how damaging these end-times beliefs are to peace in the Middle East.

[Kris]

You are right --1947--- I need to read your posts better, yikes!! It is really interesting how silent everyone is on the Palestinian State being in the UN Charter. In fact, until you mentioned it, I did not even know this!! I have seen in the news how the Palestinians are trying to get statehood recognition from other countries as well as the UN. Seems that this agreement would give them additional backing. It is also interesting how much flack Obama gets because he is not as "in the corner" with Israel as some of our other presidents have been. Perhaps he is like me in the sense that he sees this not only as an Israel issue, but also as a Palestinian issue. When I saw all of the consessions that the Palestinians were prepared to make in the wiki-leaked material, I really thought that Israel was being horrible in that it still was not enough for them. Unfortunately, as far as I am concerned, they got off easy. I have to say, I am somewhat hopeful that the changes in the ME will change the dynamics as to who has what say-so. I would like to have these fundamentalist christians somewhat shut down.

[Overcame Faith]

If anyone is interested, here is a link to the full text of UN Resolution 181 of November 21, 1947. It clearly called for the creation of both an Arab State and a Jewish State.

 

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm

[LivingLife]

I think if you dig a little deeper, you will find the plans for a jewish state was in the late 19th century when Zionism was founded/resurrected. The subsequent wars had no bearing and the holocaust as horrible as it sounds had Zionist complicity.

 

Jews were returning to Palestine long before 1948 and lived in peace with their neighbors. You will be shocked if you dig into Zionism but you are going to have to go beyond Wikipedia.

 

The whole of Europe was anti-Semitic on the early 20th century, Hitler just took it to a whole new level. IIRC, Stalin also did quite a few of them in. Odd that there are so many jewish surnames ending in ..witz that appear as the influential in the public eye today.

 

Just be careful not to be caught up in conspiracy theories.

[Overcame Faith]

I would like to have these fundamentalist christians somewhat shut down.

 

Preach it, friend!! So would I, except I would delete the word "somewhat" from your statement.