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Overcame Faith

Top Ten Reasons Not To Fear Biblical End-times Scenarios

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You have helped so many fearful people with this post - it has certainly lessoned my anxiety and I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart!

I know this takes a lot of work and time to do a thread like this............ Sincerly, Margee

 

I am glad it has been a help to you. And I sincerely hope that others have been helped by this thread. Helping those who have a fear of end-times events was and continues to be my goal.

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Indeed this is a great thread. Thank you, Overcame Faith.

 

Education really is the key to getting rid of all the fears. At least that's what helped me. First learning about the natural world as it is - and not what the Bible claims. And then learning about how the Bible was created, what influences its writers had from surrounding cultures, religions, where they got certain ideas from etc. I'm reading a book on that now and although it's not quite as critical of the Bible as many scholars today are. It's a pretty old book and sometimes it takes Bible stories at face value - not the supernatural claims, but claims for example about King David and Solomon, when not even their existence has been proven so far. Still it's good because it presents how the writers of the Bible were influenced by other religions. It's very enlightening.

 

 

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Indeed this is a great thread. Thank you, Overcame Faith.

 

Education really is the key to getting rid of all the fears. At least that's what helped me. First learning about the natural world as it is - and not what the Bible claims. And then learning about how the Bible was created, what influences its writers had from surrounding cultures, religions, where they got certain ideas from etc. I'm reading a book on that now and although it's not quite as critical of the Bible as many scholars today are. It's a pretty old book and sometimes it takes Bible stories at face value - not the supernatural claims, but claims for example about King David and Solomon, when not even their existence has been proven so far. Still it's good because it presents how the writers of the Bible were influenced by other religions. It's very enlightening.

 

Thank-you, Suzy.

 

I agree completely with what you say about education being a key factor in getting rid of fears. When one digs deeply enough and is able to view the bible in something of an objective fashion, the whole religion begins to unravel.

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Great points again, Overcame Fatih.

 

It was the issue of prophecy that sealed the deal for me in nonbelief. Though my first doubts came from general contradictions, it was a last ditch effort to boost my faith by studying the so-called Christological prophecies that did my faith in. When I saw that over and over and over again the New Testament writers took Old Testament texts completely out of context in order to fabricate prophetic fulfillments, then I realized that the whole thing is just a sham.

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Overcame, I found this on a anxiety forum this morning and thought you would like to read what people are saying all over the world. It just shows me how important this thread is, and to be able to read intelligent material that makes sense finally!

 

''I am very well aware of what the bible says on the subject. A VERY few people will be left to rebuild. A specific few. You have to be more than a "good" person. And we are very near the end time according to the bible. And his Law means a lot more than the commandments. We have cast aside the days God said to observe in favor of things like easter and christmas so even very good caring people that live according to the commandments are living against his law without knowing it and will not be spared the things to come in the end. I guess I am answering myself because yes I do believe it will happen but I feel a loss of reality because of it.''

 

This is what one man said: ''If I have to spend one more day worrying about what might happen tomorrow,next week,next month, or in 5 years, I don't think I can stand to live any longer. I don't want to have to live through horrible terrifying earthly disasters, I'd rather die peacefully before it happens''.

 

 

This one is a catholic:

''I know about just not being a good person: you have to be Catholic since as the Bible says: outside the Church there is no salvation. You don't worry about what sins the world is committing. Worry about yourself and the people you are in charge of.'' ''You are not crazy to believe in a spiritual world. It is real and logical to believe in it. Most people do believe in a spiritual world. All because we cannot see it doesn't mean it isn't there, and all because people deny it, doesn't mean it does not exist''. BLAH, BLAH, BLAH ......................................

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Great points again, Overcame Fatih.

 

It was the issue of prophecy that sealed the deal for me in nonbelief. Though my first doubts came from general contradictions, it was a last ditch effort to boost my faith by studying the so-called Christological prophecies that did my faith in. When I saw that over and over and over again the New Testament writers took Old Testament texts completely out of context in order to fabricate prophetic fulfillments, then I realized that the whole thing is just a sham.

 

If I were in church, my response to what you say would be a hearty, "Amen."

 

As I know you are aware, Citsonga, the so-called Christological prophecies are one of the biggest scams ever to be perpetrated on humankind. I'll deal with a few of them in later posts and I'm sure you are already aware of the issues.

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Overcame, I found this on a anxiety forum this morning and thought you would like to read what people are saying all over the world. It just shows me how important this thread is, and to be able to read intelligent material that makes sense finally!

 

''I am very well aware of what the bible says on the subject. A VERY few people will be left to rebuild. A specific few. You have to be more than a "good" person. And we are very near the end time according to the bible. And his Law means a lot more than the commandments. We have cast aside the days God said to observe in favor of things like easter and christmas so even very good caring people that live according to the commandments are living against his law without knowing it and will not be spared the things to come in the end. I guess I am answering myself because yes I do believe it will happen but I feel a loss of reality because of it.''

 

This is what one man said: ''If I have to spend one more day worrying about what might happen tomorrow,next week,next month, or in 5 years, I don't think I can stand to live any longer. I don't want to have to live through horrible terrifying earthly disasters, I'd rather die peacefully before it happens''.

 

 

This one is a catholic:

''I know about just not being a good person: you have to be Catholic since as the Bible says: outside the Church there is no salvation. You don't worry about what sins the world is committing. Worry about yourself and the people you are in charge of.'' ''You are not crazy to believe in a spiritual world. It is real and logical to believe in it. Most people do believe in a spiritual world. All because we cannot see it doesn't mean it isn't there, and all because people deny it, doesn't mean it does not exist''. BLAH, BLAH, BLAH ......................................

 

Thanks, Margee. I find the posts you provided above to be so very sad. As if there isn't enough to worry about without believing there is a god orchestrating terrible calamities and determined to punish people for celebrating Easter and Christmas.

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Overcame, I found this on a anxiety forum this morning and thought you would like to read what people are saying all over the world. It just shows me how important this thread is, and to be able to read intelligent material that makes sense finally!

 

''I am very well aware of what the bible says on the subject. A VERY few people will be left to rebuild. A specific few. You have to be more than a "good" person. And we are very near the end time according to the bible. And his Law means a lot more than the commandments. We have cast aside the days God said to observe in favor of things like easter and christmas so even very good caring people that live according to the commandments are living against his law without knowing it and will not be spared the things to come in the end. I guess I am answering myself because yes I do believe it will happen but I feel a loss of reality because of it.''

 

This is what one man said: ''If I have to spend one more day worrying about what might happen tomorrow,next week,next month, or in 5 years, I don't think I can stand to live any longer. I don't want to have to live through horrible terrifying earthly disasters, I'd rather die peacefully before it happens''.

 

 

This one is a catholic:

''I know about just not being a good person: you have to be Catholic since as the Bible says: outside the Church there is no salvation. You don't worry about what sins the world is committing. Worry about yourself and the people you are in charge of.'' ''You are not crazy to believe in a spiritual world. It is real and logical to believe in it. Most people do believe in a spiritual world. All because we cannot see it doesn't mean it isn't there, and all because people deny it, doesn't mean it does not exist''. BLAH, BLAH, BLAH ......................................

 

 

 

 

It's sad to see people trapped in constant fear and guilt. But that's Christianity for you. I'm so glad I'm over it!

 

 

 

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Consider this post not as one of my ten reasons not to fear end-times scenarios, but, rather, as an interlude. I was studying the Olivet Discourse (Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21:5-38) and had some thoughts which I wanted to share. It is at least one possible explanation for why so many Christians see what they think are prophecies concerning our lives. By so writing, I hope to help you understand what is happening and to give some measure of hope that we can change the possible course we face.

 

The Olivet Discourse is about the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus did not speak those words. They were first written by Mark as a way to make people believe that Jesus was a great prophet and that he knew of the coming destruction forty years before it happened. But that is a lie. I will give some details for why I confidently say this in later posts.

 

The Jesus described in the gospels never lived and thus did not prophesy anything. The events described in the Olivet Discourse were written after the fact and portray it is a prophecy. It is a fraud perpetrated on people so they would believe in Jesus. But there was also another important reason for it.

 

The destruction of Jerusalem was a great calamity. You can read all about it in Josephus’ writings or by doing an internet search where you will find many descriptions of it. People were devastated and when the Olivet Discourse was written, the horrible events weighed heavily on their minds. People, including Christians, wanted to understand why it happened and what its significance was.

 

The Olivet Discourse was a way for early Christians to come to terms with the ghastly events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem. The answer was that Jews were being punished for rejecting Jesus as their Messiah. This message gave Christians great joy because they could come to terms with the events. Their Lord had prophesied the events and they could then understand that Christianity was the one true religion and that god was in control of everything that had happened. By viewing it as a prophecy, Christians could understand it was not the Romans at work because the Romans were god’s instruments for carrying out his will. What to them really happened was that god was at work imposing his divine judgment on a people who had rejected the Messiah.

 

No one at the time the Olivet Discourse was written and for many years to come thought it was about anything other than the destruction of Jerusalem. Viewing it as related to end-times events that we will face came much later by people in our modern age that had their own fears about the great potential for the destruction of our world. If they, like the early Christians, could have some meaning ascribed to hydrogen bombs and all the terrible things that could happen and which could kill all of us, our children, and even all of humanity, then they could better live with it.

 

By viewing the Olivet Discourse, Revelation, Daniel, and other passages as prophecies related to our own time, they could believe that god was orchestrating everything. By so believing, they, too, could at least have some measure of peace concerning the nightmares that our modern age has given us. So, in their search for meaning, they took these verses, which are not prophetic at all, and interpreted them to explain the many crises we face.

 

And their explanation is that our problems are caused by human wickedness which in turn is caused by Satan and all the dark spiritual forces at work in our world. What is of most significance is that if the “prophecies” in the bible which they interpret as end-times events are indeed prophetic, then, like the destruction of Jerusalem, god is in control of everything and ultimately there will be a happy ending, at least for the true Christians. The rapture, though feared by a lot of people, gives some Christians much joy and hope because they will be taken away from our troubles and will never face a nuclear or other holocaust.

 

That is the wrong approach. The correct approach requires much bravery. By saying that god is orchestrating everything then there is nothing that neither they nor anyone else can do to put a stop to what could very well happen. The true message in trying to debunk end-times prophecies is that there is no divine plan which requires the detonation of nuclear bombs, or instituting biological warfare, or blowing up buildings with commercial jets. We can change things and put a stop to the madness because no god has pre-ordained any of the destruction.

 

The promise of a rapture is a lie and gives false hope. People must be made to understand what is really happening. And what is really happening is that human beings are the cause of the vast majority of our problems. There is no god involved at all and, therefore, we are not powerless to get our lives on planet earth under control.

 

People can change things but before we can do this, we must stop believing we are powerless. We can control our destiny. We can put a stop to the madness. But the belief in end-times prophecies is a major stumbling block to our efforts.

 

We must all face the harsh, but hopeful, truth. No one will ever be raptured. In a sense, we will all be “left behind.” And that requires us all to face our current situation and stop depending on a non-existent god to deliver us because deliverance is not the answer. Facing it with a steeled determination to change things is the answer.

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The Olivet Discourse

 

Overcame, I found this to be very interesting. Thank you again. I did some research on this today. The hundreds of arguments are well beyond me..... :shrug:

 

I did not realize that this could be about the temple. One thing that I do continually refer back to with this topic for simplicity's sake, (if you could call it that!) is the bible itself where Jesus continually speaks about 'these things' happening during his 'age'. I didn't really know what he was talking about, but I did recognize that whatever was about to happen was supposed to happen during that generation.

 

Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (Matthew 23:36 )

 

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Matthew 24:29-35 )

 

Matthew 16:28 “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

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That is the wrong approach. The correct approach requires much bravery. By saying that god is orchestrating everything then there is nothing that neither they nor anyone else can do to put a stop to what could very well happen. The true message in trying to debunk end-times prophecies is that there is no divine plan which requires the detonation of nuclear bombs, or instituting biological warfare, or blowing up buildings with commercial jets. We can change things and put a stop to the madness because no god has pre-ordained any of the destruction.

 

The promise of a rapture is a lie and gives false hope. People must be made to understand what is really happening. And what is really happening is that human beings are the cause of the vast majority of our problems. There is no god involved at all and, therefore, we are not powerless to get our lives on planet earth under control.

 

People can change things but before we can do this, we must stop believing we are powerless. We can control our destiny. We can put a stop to the madness. But the belief in end-times prophecies is a major stumbling block to our efforts.

 

We must all face the harsh, but hopeful, truth. No one will ever be raptured. In a sense, we will all be “left behind.” And that requires us all to face our current situation and stop depending on a non-existent god to deliver us because deliverance is not the answer. Facing it with a steeled determination to change things is the answer.

 

Amen brother and 5 stars again! *****

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The Olivet Discourse

 

Overcame, I found this to be very interesting. Thank you again. I did some research on this today. The hundreds of arguments are well beyond me.....:shrug:

 

I did not realize that this could be about the temple. One thing that I do continually refer back to with this topic for simplicity's sake, (if you could call it that!) is the bible itself where Jesus continually speaks about 'these things' happening during his 'age'. I didn't really know what he was talking about, but I did recognize that whatever was about to happen was supposed to happen during that generation.

Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (Matthew 23:36 )

 

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Matthew 24:29-35 )

 

Matthew 16:28 “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

 

What you say above is right on the money, Margee. You have perfectly pointed out the scriptural basis for our correct assertion that the Jesus character was not speaking to us today. Rather, it was all intended by the writers of Mark, Matthew, and Luke to point to events of the approximate time period in which the biblical characters lived plus about 40 years. That would have easily made it take place during the generation alive at the time that Jesus was allegedly speaking.

 

But you know how Christians can be (not all, but the end-timers). Those words you point out do not deter them. They come up with all sorts of reasons why it applies to us today. I think the most creative reason is that what is set forth in the Olivet Discourse is a type and shadow of the things to come. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE is but a shadow of what will come to us in our modern day. It serves as a dim example of the horrors we will face. Therefore, it must be read as both describing the destruction of Jerusalem and what will happen in our modern times, especially when it is combined with Daniel, Revelation, and other scriptures. That's all nonsense, of course, but there we have the problem. The type of well-reasoned logic you employed will not suffice for that group. But I guess we keep going with our explanations and hope that maybe they will help a few people.

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Reason Number 2: There are no prophets and no prophecies; never have been and never will be. I say with 100% confidence that there are no prophecies and no prophets, nor have there ever been and nor will there ever be. This portion will be made in several parts.

 

I will deal with the issue of how illogical and wrongheaded it would be for a sovereign, all powerful god to rely on a person, a prophet, to pass on to other people his message. ''prophecies contained in the bible with the goal of exposing them for the frauds they are''

 

Let’s begin with two definitions:

 

Prophet: A prophet is a person to whom god speaks with a message god wants this person to pass on to others. The message may be about current events, how to conduct one’s life, or about future events. We are concerned here with future events.

 

Prophecy: The prophecy is the message itself.

 

Why would god depend on a person to pass on his important message when he could do it himself?

 

One of the bible’s primary characteristics is that is contains accounts of alleged prophets and the prophecies supposedly spoken by them. Though god is occasionally portrayed as speaking directly to individuals about something that will affect them, when he is portrayed as wanting to communicate something to a large number of people, he does so through prophets. Moses is considered to be the greatest of all Old Testament prophets.

 

If you really think about it, the god of the bible’s method of using prophets to communicate to people is a very poor way to deliver a message and surely a sovereign, all powerful god could think of a better way to deliver a message than through the use of people.

 

The second problem with the use of prophets is the most important one, because we see the consequences of this problem too many times in our modern life. And that problem is false prophets. Using the bible as their cue, any person can attempt to fool others by simply declaring that they are god’s prophet and then manipulating those who believe them into doing what the false prophet wants.

 

Think of Jim Jones, a self-proclaimed prophet, who in 1975 while in British Guyana orchestrated the murder of a United States’ Congressman and the deaths of 912 of his followers. Some of the 912 were shot dead and he convinced the remaining adults to drink poison and murder 280 of their own children.

 

Think also of David Koresh, another self-professed prophet who led a group called the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas. Under his leadership, eighty Branch Davidians, twenty-five of whom were children, died in a fiery conflagration after a confrontation with the BATF and FBI.

 

Though with possibly more benign results, many mainline church leaders claim that they are prophets. Pastors and priests will often say things like god told them the church should build a new building or engage in some other expensive project. When a pastor, priest or anyone within the church does this, they are claiming to be a prophet and speaking on god’s behalf. They do this to give themselves great credibility. After all, who are you to disagree with god?

 

The same thing often goes on at the family level. I have heard many stories of parents who want their children to do something specific with their lives tell their children that god told them they should be a pastor, priest, missionary or enter some other profession. Though they may not think of it this way, when they do this, they are claiming to be a prophet because they are claiming to speak on god’s behalf.

 

Consider these questions very carefully. Why would god tell one person to tell others what he wants them to do? Would it not make more sense for god to tell these people directly? By so doing, he could cut out the middle man and go right to the intended recipient of his message. If he did this, there would be no issues of the credibility of the alleged prophet and no way for false prophets to attempt to pull their scams.

 

The story of Moses, Aaron, and Pharaoh demonstrates that the use of prophets is a poor way for god to try to get a message to people. Frankly, if I were grading this method of communicating, I would give it an “F.” And that truth is that no god as powerful as the god of the bible would ever use people to communicate his message in the way the god of the bible is portrayed as using them in the bible. If it were truly god at work, he would not have chosen this flawed method of communication.

 

If a god had a truly important message to communicate to a group of people, surely he would use the most effective means possible to do so. He would not send another person who would face the credibility issue discussed above and, most importantly, he could eliminate the appearance of false prophets. Rather, it is just common sense that a powerful god would communicate directly and thus avoid these deadly problems.

 

The bottom line is that, assuming there is a god who wants to deliver a message, that god would not rely on prophets to do so. It is a foolhardy system and, in our modern day, the belief in prophets has caused tragic death and destruction.

 

There are no prophets and, therefore, no prophecies, including those alleged prophecies contained in the bible. And in my next post, I will address some of the so-called prophecies in the bible.

 

Why, Why, Why the fuck, did it take me soooooooo long to understand this??? Every piece of the 'deconverting puzzle' is coming together for me. But why would it take so long for me to understand that 'prophets' are nothing but 'fortunetellers'??

 

Most times in church when I would speak in tongues and prophesy, I would always ask myself if I made that up? I always 'shook' before I spoke and ALWAYS thought it was the holy spirit 'over me'.

 

Now, I look back and I know I was just fuckin' nervous to speak in case I made a fool of myself!! :banghead:

 

Thank you Overcame!

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Reason Number 2: There are no prophets and no prophecies; never have been and never will be. I say with 100% confidence that there are no prophecies and no prophets, nor have there ever been and nor will there ever be. This portion will be made in several parts.

 

I will deal with the issue of how illogical and wrongheaded it would be for a sovereign, all powerful god to rely on a person, a prophet, to pass on to other people his message. ''prophecies contained in the bible with the goal of exposing them for the frauds they are''

 

Let’s begin with two definitions:

 

Prophet: A prophet is a person to whom god speaks with a message god wants this person to pass on to others. The message may be about current events, how to conduct one’s life, or about future events. We are concerned here with future events.

 

Prophecy: The prophecy is the message itself.

 

Why would god depend on a person to pass on his important message when he could do it himself?

 

One of the bible’s primary characteristics is that is contains accounts of alleged prophets and the prophecies supposedly spoken by them. Though god is occasionally portrayed as speaking directly to individuals about something that will affect them, when he is portrayed as wanting to communicate something to a large number of people, he does so through prophets. Moses is considered to be the greatest of all Old Testament prophets.

 

If you really think about it, the god of the bible’s method of using prophets to communicate to people is a very poor way to deliver a message and surely a sovereign, all powerful god could think of a better way to deliver a message than through the use of people.

 

The second problem with the use of prophets is the most important one, because we see the consequences of this problem too many times in our modern life. And that problem is false prophets. Using the bible as their cue, any person can attempt to fool others by simply declaring that they are god’s prophet and then manipulating those who believe them into doing what the false prophet wants.

 

Think of Jim Jones, a self-proclaimed prophet, who in 1975 while in British Guyana orchestrated the murder of a United States’ Congressman and the deaths of 912 of his followers. Some of the 912 were shot dead and he convinced the remaining adults to drink poison and murder 280 of their own children.

 

Think also of David Koresh, another self-professed prophet who led a group called the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas. Under his leadership, eighty Branch Davidians, twenty-five of whom were children, died in a fiery conflagration after a confrontation with the BATF and FBI.

 

Though with possibly more benign results, many mainline church leaders claim that they are prophets. Pastors and priests will often say things like god told them the church should build a new building or engage in some other expensive project. When a pastor, priest or anyone within the church does this, they are claiming to be a prophet and speaking on god’s behalf. They do this to give themselves great credibility. After all, who are you to disagree with god?

 

The same thing often goes on at the family level. I have heard many stories of parents who want their children to do something specific with their lives tell their children that god told them they should be a pastor, priest, missionary or enter some other profession. Though they may not think of it this way, when they do this, they are claiming to be a prophet because they are claiming to speak on god’s behalf.

 

Consider these questions very carefully. Why would god tell one person to tell others what he wants them to do? Would it not make more sense for god to tell these people directly? By so doing, he could cut out the middle man and go right to the intended recipient of his message. If he did this, there would be no issues of the credibility of the alleged prophet and no way for false prophets to attempt to pull their scams.

 

The story of Moses, Aaron, and Pharaoh demonstrates that the use of prophets is a poor way for god to try to get a message to people. Frankly, if I were grading this method of communicating, I would give it an “F.” And that truth is that no god as powerful as the god of the bible would ever use people to communicate his message in the way the god of the bible is portrayed as using them in the bible. If it were truly god at work, he would not have chosen this flawed method of communication.

 

If a god had a truly important message to communicate to a group of people, surely he would use the most effective means possible to do so. He would not send another person who would face the credibility issue discussed above and, most importantly, he could eliminate the appearance of false prophets. Rather, it is just common sense that a powerful god would communicate directly and thus avoid these deadly problems.

 

The bottom line is that, assuming there is a god who wants to deliver a message, that god would not rely on prophets to do so. It is a foolhardy system and, in our modern day, the belief in prophets has caused tragic death and destruction.

 

There are no prophets and, therefore, no prophecies, including those alleged prophecies contained in the bible. And in my next post, I will address some of the so-called prophecies in the bible.

 

Why, Why, Why the fuck, did it take me soooooooo long to understand this??? Every piece of the 'deconverting puzzle' is coming together for me. But why would it take so long for me to understand that 'prophets' are nothing but 'fortunetellers'??

 

Most times in church when I would speak in tongues and prophesy, I would always ask myself if I made that up? I always 'shook' before I spoke and ALWAYS thought it was the holy spirit 'over me'.

 

Now, I look back and I know I was just fuckin' nervous to speak in case I made a fool of myself!! :banghead:

 

Thank you Overcame!

 

god just spoke to me and told me to tell you all here on EX-c, how much he loves you!! I'm a prophet, I'm a prophet!!! :bounce:

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Why, Why, Why the fuck, did it take me soooooooo long to understand this??? Every piece of the 'deconverting puzzle' is coming together for me. But why would it take so long for me to understand that 'prophets' are nothing but 'fortunetellers'??

 

Brainwashing can be quite powerful. When we're programmed to look at things one particular way, it can be very difficult (and take a long time) to think outside the box and see things for what they really are.

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Why, Why, Why the fuck, did it take me soooooooo long to understand this??? Every piece of the 'deconverting puzzle' is coming together for me. But why would it take so long for me to understand that 'prophets' are nothing but 'fortunetellers'??

 

Brainwashing can be quite powerful. When we're programmed to look at things one particular way, it can be very difficult (and take a long time) to think outside the box and see things for what they really are.

 

Citsonga, the more I read - the sillier it looks to me. Here's something I found this morning on the 'so called prophets.'

Numbers 12: 2-16

 

2 And they said, “Has the Lord indeed spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?” And the Lord heard it. :shrug: 3 Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all people who were on the face of the earth. 4 And suddenly the Lord said to Moses and to Aaron and Miriam, “Come out, you three, to the tent of meeting.” And the three of them came out. 5 And the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the tent and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forward. 6 And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. 8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” 9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them, and he departed.

 

10 When the cloud removed from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous,like snow. And Aaron turned toward Miriam, and behold, she was leprous. 11 And Aaron said to Moses, “Oh, my lord, do not punish us because we have done foolishly and have sinned. 12 Let her not be as one dead, whose flesh is half eaten away when he comes out of his mother’s womb.” 13 And Moses cried to the Lord, “O God, please heal her—please.” 14 But the Lord said to Moses, “If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be shamed seven days? Let her be shut outside the camp seven days, and after that she may be brought in again.” 15 So Miriam was shut outside the camp seven days, and the people did not set out on the march till Miriam was brought in again. 16 After that the people set out from Hazeroth, and camped in the wilderness of Paran. :Doh:

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Why, Why, Why the fuck, did it take me soooooooo long to understand this??? Every piece of the 'deconverting puzzle' is coming together for me. But why would it take so long for me to understand that 'prophets' are nothing but 'fortunetellers'??

 

Most times in church when I would speak in tongues and prophesy, I would always ask myself if I made that up? I always 'shook' before I spoke and ALWAYS thought it was the holy spirit 'over me'.

 

Now, I look back and I know I was just fuckin' nervous to speak in case I made a fool of myself!! :banghead:

 

Thank you Overcame!

 

Sometimes when we were in the religion, things that now look so simply explained seemed so real. Like Citsonga said, there is a degree of brainwashing involved. And I also think there is sometimes wishful thinking involved. We wished so hard that it was true that we allowed ourselves to believe things. It happened to me, too, back then.

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Reason Number 2: There are no prophets and no prophecies; never have been and never will be. (Part 2 of 3).

 

The Olivet Discourses

 

In this post, I will begin discussing the Olivet Discourses (plural since there are three different versions of it, one in Mark 13, another in Matthew 24, and the final version found in Luke 21:5-38). I will demonstrate that they were not prophetic at all. Rather, the three versions of the Olivet Discourses were written either while what they were describing was taking place or after what they described had already taken place. However, they were written so it appeared as if Jesus were prophesying the events. But most importantly, none of the versions were about anything that would happen in our modern times.

 

What I intend to accomplish in this post is to demonstrate that the three authors of the Olivet Discourses never intended them to be interpreted to apply to our modern age. To understand this concept, one must go to the verses in which the Jesus character put the words into the proper time frame for us. Please note that I refer to the Jesus “character” since Jesus never said these things.

 

After the Jesus character described the major events he was discussing, he said the following: “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” Mark 13:30. The words are essentially the same in both Matthew and Luke so I will not repeat them here.

 

I can think of no language that better clears up the mistaken belief that the Olivet Discourses are about what might happen in our modern age, but about something that must have happened at a time close enough to when Jesus supposedly lived that at least some of those who were alive at the time he was speaking (maybe 33 CE) would still be living. And that something was the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, about forty or so years from the time Jesus was supposedly speaking the words in the Olivet Discourses.

 

Despite what I see as clear language, the end-timers refuse to accept these words at their obvious face value. I have heard several interpretations of the language in Mark 13:30 that end-timers use to try to persuade people that it has to do with our modern times. The one that stands out the most in my mind is the argument that “this generation” refers not to the generation to whom the Jesus Character was speaking, but to the generation that would see the fulfillment of all of the alleged future events set forth in all the so-called prophetic works (like Revelation and parts of Daniel, as well as the Olivet Discourses). So their interpretation is that the generation alive at the time when it all starts to happen, often the rapture is considered the starting event, will be alive when everything the Jesus character described happens. But for several reasons, they are wrong in their interpretations.

 

One of the reasons the end-timers’ interpretation of “this generation” in Mark 13:30 is wrong is because they fail to put the words into their proper context. The context is that the Jesus character is speaking to a limited audience. And that audience, depending on which version of the Olivet Discourses one reads, is either Peter, James, John and Andrew (Mark 13:3), the disciples (Matthew 24:3), or some of the disciples (Luke 21:5). And as the Jesus character describes the events he repeatedly tells his audience that they, using the word “you,” are the ones that will see the things he describes. For example, the Jesus character said, “Watch out that you are not deceived.” Luke 21:8. (Emphasis mine). Another example is, “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you.” Luke 21:12. (Emphasis mine). And so it goes throughout the discourses. The Jesus character is not speaking to any of us, but to the disciples as variously described in the discourses themselves.

 

There are a few words in one verse that, without careful analysis, seem to undermine my argument that the Jesus character was speaking only to his audience and not to us. But there are two different versions of this verse, one in Mark and one in Matthew. In Luke, the entire context of the verse is changed and the “let the reader understand” language is missing completely. Therefore, I will only deal with the Mark and Matthew versions of this verse.

 

”When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong – let the reader understand – then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

 

Mark 13:14

 

”So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel – let the reader understand – then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”

 

Matthew 24:15-16

 

Some end-timers view the “let the reader understand” language to be a sort of editorial interlude in which Jesus temporarily turns his attention away from his disciples and, knowing that these events will affect you and me in our modern age, turns his attention to us and tells us to read these words in front of us carefully. But that is not what the Jesus character is doing. There is no proper support for the contention that the “let the reader understand” language is directed at anyone other than the Jesus character’s audience, some or all of his disciples.

 

Taken in the context of Mark and Matthew, the Jesus character is telling the disciples, not us, to read the relevant portions of Daniel carefully so they will understand what he is saying. And the relevant portion of Daniel is found in Daniel 9:27 which states:

 

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

 

In the minds of end-timers, this quote from Daniel supports their view that Jesus is speaking to us when he says, “let the reader understand.” And that is because the end-timers interpret Daniel 9:27, among other verses, to support their contention that an anti-Christ will arise in our modern times. But I have already addressed what that verse really means in an earlier post as follows:

 

And what about the temple and the abomination that causes desolation which so many end-timers attribute to future events. The temple was the second temple which stood at the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the abomination that causes desolation was a number of things that was done to the temple, including stopping the sacrifices, slaughtering pigs, using the temple to worship gods other than YHWH, and on and on. You can read all about it here in one of the apocryphal books called The First Book of the Maccabees. It is all laid out pretty well there.

 

http://st-takla.org/...-Maccabees.html

 

The quoted language can be found at post 33 here:

 

http://www.ex-christ...os/page__st__20

 

To put the “let the reader understand” language into context so we can all understand it, the Jesus character was telling his disciples with whom he was allegedly speaking to make sure they understood what Daniel had to say about the phrase “abomination that causes desolation” because something similar was going to happen in the temple before their generation passed. I will discuss this in more detail, but something similar did happen once the Romans had control of Jerusalem and the temple. But don’t worry, as I will explain in a later post that was not a prophecy on Jesus’ part. And, as I will also explain, when we get to Luke we will see that the definition of what Luke calls “desolation” was entirely different from what both Mark and Matthew meant.

 

In short, there is, in my opinion, solid evidence found in the words presented in the Olivet Discourses that they were not intended to apply to our modern age. Rather, they were intended only to apply to those who were alive in the time frame of 70 CE.

 

But what were the events that took place which inspired the Olivet Discourses? In my next post, I will explain that. In so doing, I will put the Olivet Discourses into the context of the time during which they were written. Additionally, I will provide solid evidence based on the differences in the three versions of the Olivet Discourses that they were written either during the time those events were actually occurring or after everything had already happened.

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Reason Number 2: There are no prophets and no prophecies; never have been and never will be. (Part 2).

 

The Olivet Discourses

 

the Olivet Discourses that they were written either during the time those events were actually occurring or after everything had already happened.

 

This is so interesting Overcame - When you read the bible in it's context - it comes across entirely different. This Oliivet Discouse makes much sense to me. I studied the bible one time with a pastor who throughly believed that the books of the bible were to be read in their context. When they were written, why they were written, who they were addressing and what was the particular message the author of a book was trying to portray.

 

For instance, take the "Pauline" epistles. Paul supposedly wrote these letters to the different churches. According to this pastor , Paul would have a certain message for each church.(not for us!) We were meant (according to him) to read these books and letters in their 'context'. So you would read one book at a time and not cherry pick scriptures out to suit you.

 

For instance Paul starts talking to the Galatian church and people and says:

 

1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers and sisters with me, my letter.........

 

To the churches in Galatia: 3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

........and then one would go to the next 'letter' (or book) and see what message he would be addressing to the church and people for that time... Am I on the right track......:shrug:

 

 

First Thessalonians

 

Second Thessalonians

 

First Corinthians

 

Second Corinthians

 

Galatians

 

Romans

 

Ephesians

 

Philippians

 

Colossians

 

Philemon

 

Hebrews

 

Titus

 

First Timothy

 

Second Timothy

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Reason Number 2: There are no prophets and no prophecies; never have been and never will be. (Part 2).

 

The Olivet Discourses

 

the Olivet Discourses that they were written either during the time those events were actually occurring or after everything had already happened.

 

This is so interesting Overcame - When you read the bible in it's context - it comes across entirely different. This Oliivet Discouse makes much sense to me. I studied the bible one time with a pastor who throughly believed that the books of the bible were to be read in their context. When they were written, why they were written, who they were addressing and what was the particular message the author of a book was trying to portray.

 

For instance, take the "Pauline" epistles. Paul supposedly wrote these letters to the different churches. According to this pastor , Paul would have a certain message for each church.(not for us!) We were meant (according to him) to read these books and letters in their 'context'. So you would read one book at a time and not cherry pick scriptures out to suit you.

 

For instance Paul starts talking to the Galatian church and people and says:

 

1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers and sisters with me, my letter.........

 

To the churches in Galatia: 3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

........and then one would go to the next 'letter' (or book) and see what message he would be addressing to the church and people for that time... Am I on the right track......:shrug:

 

 

First Thessalonians

 

Second Thessalonians

 

First Corinthians

 

Second Corinthians

 

Galatians

 

Romans

 

Ephesians

 

Philippians

 

Colossians

 

Philemon

 

Hebrews

 

Titus

 

First Timothy

 

Second Timothy

 

The pastor you described is a rare breed, indeed. If he isn't careful, he may just leave the religion like the rest of us. :lmao:

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The pastor you described is a rare breed, indeed. If he isn't careful, he may just leave the religion like the rest of us. :lmao:

 

At the very end of my research to find someone who could answer my questions - I was very lucky to study with this man. I just kept going back to fundamentalism and forgetting what he taught me. You are reminding me of this again!!

 

Soooooooooo...... He and I and you are on the right track - is this what this means :shrug:

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The pastor you described is a rare breed, indeed. If he isn't careful, he may just leave the religion like the rest of us. :lmao:

 

At the very end of my research to find someone who could answer my questions - I was very lucky to study with this man. I just kept going back to fundamentalism and forgetting what he taught me. You are reminding me of this again!!

 

Soooooooooo...... He and I and you are on the right track - is this what this means :shrug:

 

I think we, and especially you, are on the right track. I love the way you ask questions and think deeply about such matters.

 

As for returning to fundamentalism, I know about that all too well. I hate to remember the time in my life when if I had read the things I have written on this thread, I would have viewed it as some sort of satanic deception or some similar crap.

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Just wanted to bring Overcame Faith's brilliant thread forward after I watched these fabulous,(I think) 5 part 'you tubes' on why jesus was wrong. It will help someone so much, who is still worried about the end times. Good scripture evidence! Enjoy! Of course, the other 4 parts are on the right hand side..........click on 'you tube'

 

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Overcame Faith, I hope you do not see my contributions as hijacking, just so happens this was my entrance and ironically my exit from woowoodumb and did study/research this pretty extensively. The MoB became the UPC barcode in the 70's. The UPC barcode is what you get on all your products you buy from the store. If you look at the UPC, there are three sets of bars that extend longer than the other bars. It just so happens that these line match the number 6 and thus 3 of them gives you teh MoB aka 666 UPC%20Anatomy%20FINAL.jpg The 3 lines are merely triggers to tell the scanner how to interpret the code, the 1st set switches on the scan process, the middle one redirects to get info from elsewhere in the database and the last set end the scan. The new and improved chip had "allegedly" three sets of 6 digits that would be used. Date of birth Geographical location to withing 100 sq ft where you live Unique ID just in case you had a twin so allegedly this chip would have nnnnnn nnnnnn nnnnnn and wallah, another iteration of the infamous MoB 666 I almost forgot, there was a precursor called the credit card namely VISA where VI is roman numeral for 6 S is first letter of the number SIX A = 6 Well the latter needs some explanation. Numerologists assigned a value of 6 to letters of the alphabet so B=12, C=18 and so on. This is how they determine who is the current auntiechrist, deciphering the letters of politician's name and adding/manipulating till they arrive at a grand total of 666. The first auntiechrist (in recent times) was Henry Kissinger, but they did not use his full name, Bush 1 and Bush II also made the list and was very interesting the algorithms they applied to arrive at the desired answer. They also use Hebrew which as I am told also have numeric values linked to various letters, so the process is apply whatever system gets you to 666 "proves" the person is teh auntichrist. Makes perfect sense eh? The chip has survived the longest and when we already have cellphones that can be triangulated to within 20 sq feet, one wonders why woo woos have cell phones. The beast already has you monitored and stuff like google maps working to the point to give side on images probably scares them shitless. But remember, here in Africa, India and China where half the world populations resides, this technology is essentially non existent. As I understand, the USA govt can monitor all phone calls and intercept all emails. Thus any woo woo that users a 'puter, cell phone, credit card is already monitored by teh beast. There have been some interesting movies made along these lines and of course, it it was on the big screen it must be true. Really, all any American woo woo has to do is move out of their paradigm and see just how not advanced the rest of the world is. To kinda put this in perspective, here in SA, most folk do their banking remotely. We have a pensioners day once a month where the indigenous folk all come to town from the surrounding farms to collect their govt. pension. For that day, there is a flea market of these folk buying and selling wares and it is ALL done in cash. So even here in SA where we are luckily a little more advanced than most of Africa, we still have this dichotomy of 1st and 3rd world folk existing side by side. One would have to infiltrate this demographic and eliminate cash altogether, teach them computer skills, issue bank cards and eliminate cash altogether. I suppose in woowoodumb, it would not be immoral to simply eliminate these folk, after all, their mere existence is stopping jeebus' return. The farther north one goes in Africa from SA, the more the latter demographic is in the majority, till you reach the Med where it is about the same as SA. We have a little landlocked nation here in SA called the kingdom of Lesuto and I was there once on business. They achieved their independence from the crown way back in the early 1900's as a sovereign kingdom. The rural folk are still riding donkeys, using animal drawn vehicles with the only modern piece being the axle and wheels off a scrap vehicle. It was like time travel into the past and a mere 30km from their borders, we have a metropolis (in our standards) where the modern society exists. When you are exposed to this type of worldview, then I can assure you, there is no way in hell for any of this MoB crap to be even remotely plausible.

I like how you call christian's woo woo's!

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