Top Ten Reasons Not To Fear Biblical End-times Scenarios

[ConureDelSol]

I agree with the Muslims on one thing...Paul was definitely insane.

 

Also, I don't understand why Christians all over believe in the Rapture. Wasn't it just thought up in the 1900s?

[Zephie]

Also, I don't understand why Christians all over believe in the Rapture. Wasn't it just thought up in the 1900s?

 

Thank you! Most Christians believe this as if it were in the Bible and it is not and it pisses me off! How many of us here had fear because of the rapture? Alot from what I've read. Very few churches speak against it that I know of .

[★ Citsonga ★]

Reason Number 2: There are no prophets and no prophecies; never have been and never will be. (Part 2).

 

Still waiting for the final installments.

 

I don't want to hijack this thread, but since it's been a while, I thought I would share a couple things I wrote that pertain to the subject at hand. Below are two excerpts from a lengthy letter I wrote a while back detailing a lot of the reasons why I no longer believe the Bible. (Due to the subject matter, some of the details will inevitably be repeats of things already mentioned in this thread.)

 

The Generation That Passed Away

 

When discussing end-times prophecy, Jesus allegedly said, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matthew 24:34; ref Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32). Yet here we are, a couple millennia after the generation that Jesus was speaking to, and the end has not come! Did Jesus not know what he was talking about?

 

One response Christians give is that "this generation" is not referring to the generation in which Jesus lived, but instead refers to the generation in which the end-times scenario begins to unfold. In other words, all the end-times events will happen within one generation. However, this argument is flawed, because Jesus specifically stated, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matt 24:34). What are "all these things" that Jesus had been talking about? The end-times teaching (Matt 24:4-44) was given in response to the disciples asking about "these things" (Matt 24:3) that Jesus had just mentioned regarding the temple, "Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down" (Matt 24:1-2). The temple was destroyed in 70 AD, and the generation that lived then has long since passed. Therefore, this explanation does not work.

 

Another response is that "generation" could also be translated "race," and therefore Jesus was just saying that the Jewish race would not pass away until everything was fulfilled. However, if this was really true, then surely we would see modern translations reflecting that. Yet we don't see that; modern translations still use the word "generation" (NKJV, NIV, NASB, NLT, AMP, CEV) or an equivalent such as "the people of this time" (NCV). While some Bibles do contain a footnote saying that the word for "generation" could also mean "race," if the context really warranted that translation, we would be seeing "race" used in the actual text. But we don't see that. In fact, The Amplified Bible (which attempts to amplify the meanings of the original words) specifies that it refers to "the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period." That correlates to a generation, not race. Clearly then, the text has Jesus specifying that the end-times would happen before his generation all passed away! But that didn't happen, did it?

 

And what do other Biblical authors have to say? The author of Hebrews wrote, "For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry" (Hebrews 10:37), indicating that he expected Jesus' return to happen soon and not be delayed. In writings attributed to Paul we read, "We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump" (I Corinthians 15:51-52), where "we" clearly indicates Paul and the people he was writing to. Similarly, "And they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come" (I Cor 10:11), where "our" clearly indicates Paul and the people he was writing to. We also read that "the time is short" (I Cor 7:29), "The Lord is at hand" (Philippians 4:5), "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" (I Thesselonians 4:15) and "the day of Christ is at hand" (II Thes 2:2), all of which clearly indicate the thought that the end was near at the time he wrote.

 

From other authors we also read, "But the end of all things is at hand" (I Peter 4:7), "it is the last time" (I John 2:18), "the time is at hand" (Revelation 1:3; 22:10), and the end-times events are "things which must shortly be done" (Rev 22:6).

 

In addition, Jesus reportedly also said, "I come quickly" (Rev 3:11; 22:7,12,20). Some argue that this particular saying merely means that when Jesus returns, it will happen really fast. However, the Greek word used is "tachy," which means "quickly" in the sense of without delay. This is also easily understood from the context in which it was used in Revelation 22, because, as noted in the previous paragraph, that very chapter specifies that it is talking about "things which must shortly be done" (Rev 22:6), that "the time is at hand" (Rev 22:10). Indeed, some newer translations even clarify "I come quickly" by translating it as "I am coming soon" (NIV).

 

Can there be any doubt that the authors of the New Testament were saying that the end would happen in their generation, just as Jesus himself supposedly said?

 

In response, some point to Peter saying, "One day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering" (II Peter 3:8-9). The argument is that Peter knew it could be a long time. However, keep in mind that the previous letter attributed to Peter said that "the end of all things is at hand" (I Pet 4:7), clearly indicating an imminent event. It appears that after time passed and the end did not come, the author realized that they had been wrong, and thus altered his approach to the subject. Yet, if the Bible was divinely inspired, as many Christians insist, then would there be such flip-flopping? Would there have ever been an erroneous claim that the end would happen in their generation?

 

As such, what are we to make of this? The Bible has Jesus and New Testament authors saying that the end would happen in their generation. Yet that did not happen. Clearly, then, we have failed prophecies, thus undermining Biblical authority.

 

Modern State of Israel

 

Here I want to turn my attention to the claim that prophecy was fulfilled when Jews returned to their homeland in 1948. While this particular issue doesn't directly pertain to my loss of faith, it is often cited as alleged "proof" that the Bible was inspired by God, and as such I think the matter deserves some attention.

 

We read, "And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country" (Ezekiel 34:13). Further on we see, "Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all" (Eze 37:21-22). Passages like these are cited as having been fulfilled with the rebirth of Israel in 1948. But is this claim legitimate? Let's dig deeper.

 

Ezekiel goes on to say, "And David my servant shall be king over them" (Eze 37:24). Yet the new Israel does not have a king, it has a president. In addition, that president is not David, nor has he been established as a descendant of David (a fair interpretation of the prophecy). In fact, in Christianity it is Jesus who is supposedly given "the throne of his father David" (Luke 1:32), but is Jesus reigning in Israel now? Clearly, this is not fulfilled.

 

We also read, "And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel" (Eze 37:28), yet what heathen knows such a thing? Unless we categorize Christians as heathens, this is also unfulfilled.

 

Ezekiel also says, "The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand" (Eze 37:15-17). It goes on to explain, "Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and hey shall be one in mine hand" (Eze 37:19).

 

There we see a clear reference to "the tribes of Israel," yet the tribes of Israel remain completely undefined in modern Israel. There is no traced lineage establishing all 12 tribes. In fact, it was the Jews who returned to Israel. The term "Jew" is ultimately derived from a Latin word that means "Judean," or "from the land of Judea." If those who returned to Israel really were Jews (literally "Judean"), then that would mean that what we have represented in Israel today is people of the southern kingdom of Judah, and not those of the northern (and larger) kingdom of Israel (after the original kingdom of Israel was split in two). Therefore, the prophecy of joining all the tribes of the two kingdoms back together remains unfulfilled.

 

Another interesting point is that modern Israel does not have all the land that was supposedly part of the kingdom of Israel during the reigns of David and Solomon, and therefore the nation has not been fully restored.

 

While I have not extensively studied the current State of Israel, these points alone are sufficient to demonstrate that what we have in modern Israel is not a fulfillment of the Biblical prophecy in Ezekiel. Those who believe that it is a fulfillment of divine prophecy are simply engaging in wishful thinking.

[dyanaprajna0]

If there are ex-c's here who are having problems in the deconversion process due to fears over the end of the world scenario, if you guys would like, I have several links that point out all the failed eotw prophecies of xtians going all the way back to Jesus and continuing to the present day. Just let me know.

[★ Citsonga ★]

If there are ex-c's here who are having problems in the deconversion process due to fears over the end of the world scenario, if you guys would like, I have several links that point out all the failed eotw prophecies of xtians going all the way back to Jesus and continuing to the present day. Just let me know.

 

I'm not in that position, but I would still be interested in seeing the links you have. They could also be useful for people who browse the site but don't post. Thanks in advance.

[dyanaprajna0]

There's alma-geddon. It takes a humors look at religious end-time prophecies and scenarios. Then there's this one. Just pick a year to see the prophecies set for that year. I've found both of these really helpful in throwing out all the end-of-the-world nonsense. And there's probably many more out there.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Thanks! I'll bookmark those and check them out when I get some time.

[Overcame Faith]

Reason Number 2: There are no prophets and no prophecies; never have been and never will be. (Part 3 of 3).

 

This is a continuation of my discussion of the Olivet Discourses which I began in Post 144. I ended Post 144 as follows:

 

But what were the events that took place which inspired the Olivet Discourses? In my next post, I will explain that. In so doing, I will put the Olivet Discourses into the context of the time during which they were written. Additionally, I will provide solid evidence based on the differences in the three versions of the Olivet Discourses that they were written either during the time those events were actually occurring or after everything had already happened.

 

I will now do as I promised.

 

The events which inspired the Olivet Discourses was the Roman conquest of Jerusalem after there was a rebellion against the Romans. Ultimately, after years of the Roman seige of Jerusalem and much starvation in the city, the Romans eventually breached the walls of the city, destroyed the temple (though, according to Josephus, the destruction of the temple was inadvertent), killed most of the city's inhabitants, and ultimately carried many of the survivors off to be slaves.

 

Many Christians claim that these events were prophesied by Jesus and end-timers have the added claim that the events set forth in the Olivet Discourses also in some way apply to our times. In any event, the evidence shows that the Jesus character prophesied nothing whatsoever. Rather, the writers of Mark, Matthew, and Luke were merely reporting what had happened as a historical matter and attempting to attribute the telling as a prophecy of Jesus. In other words, they were taking historical events and writing the accounts as if they were being told as prophecy.

 

What tells us that the events that happened in Jerusalem were not prophetical at all is the fact that as the gospel accounts were written in different time periods, more information was added to reflect a better understanding of history. Perhaps nothing demonstrates this as well as what was supposed to happen to cause those in Judea to flee to the mountains, what I refer to as the cardinal event.

 

What follows is Mark's account:

 

¹⁴ “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’^[a] standing where it^[b] does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ¹⁵ Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. ¹⁶ Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. ¹⁷ How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! ¹⁸ Pray that this will not take place in winter, ¹⁹ because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

 

Mark 13:14-19

 

Note that Mark focuses on "the abomination that causes desolation standing where it does not belong..." This is said by Mark to be the cardinal event which marks the time when those who are in Judea should flee to the mountains. He is not specific at all about what will happen. Rather, he merely says it will be "dreadful" and those "...will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning when God created the world, until now - and never to be equaled again." That is it. This author gives no more details and the reason he gives no more details is because he probably did not know anymore details than what he gave.

 

Now for Matthew's account of the equivalent passage:

 

¹⁵ “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’^[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— ¹⁶ then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ¹⁷ Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. ¹⁸ Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. ¹⁹ How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! ²⁰ Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. ²¹ For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

 

Matthew 24:15-21

 

Matthew's account is much like Mark's account. However, the author of Matthew has learned something that the author of Mark did not know. Whereas the author of Mark does not state a specific place where the abomination that causes desolation will take place, the author of Matthew knows it will be in the "holy place," undoubtedly referring to the temple which was burned down and destroyed.

 

Then we get to the author of Luke's account.

 

²⁰ “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. ²¹ Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. ²² For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. ²³ How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. ²⁴ They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

Luke 21:20-24

 

It is obvious that the author of Luke has much more information about what actually happened than did either the author Mark or Matthew. Luke dispenses with the abomination that causes desolation language and clarifies that it is when Jerusalem is being surrounded by armies that there will be "desolation." These armies are the armies of Rome and, as the author of Luke correctly pointed out, they caused great desolation in Jerusalem. For Luke, who knew his history, he knew it was the Roman conquest of Jerusalem that would cause the great calamity. In verse 22, the author of Luke says, "For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written." The punishment he referred to was what he perceived as the punishment of the Jews. He does not specify exactly what the punishment is for. He could have meant their punishment for rebelling against the Romans, he could have meant it in the theological sense as a punishment for the Jews for rejecting Jesus as their Messiah, or he could have meant as a combination of both (or for some other reason).

 

He also specifies that, "They (the Jews in Jerusalem) will fall by the sword...." That is exactly what happened when Rome conquered them. In addition, the author of Luke specified that the Jews who survived the conquest "...will be taken as prisoners to all the nations." Again, that is exactly what happened to the vast majority of the Jewish captives when they were taken as slaves and made to work in various places in the Roman world.

 

Finally, the author of Luke said that, "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." Again, having the benefit of history to aid what he wrote, Luke was accurate here, too. The Roman armies did "trample" on Jerusalem.

 

I hope you get the picture of these events. The cardinal event as portrayed by both Mark and Matthew was imprecise and not specific at all. This was either because both of those gospels were written while the events were taking place and they did not know how it all would turn out or the authors were poor historians. On the other hand, the cardinal event was told by Luke in very precise detail and focused on the Roman armies and the terrible destruction that befell Jerusalem. Luke, undoubtedly, was a far better historian than the authors of either Mark or Matthew.

 

The Olivet Discourses were not prophetic events at all. They do not refer to anything that will happen in our time or in our future. Rather, they refer totally and completely to what actually happened in Jerusalem in 70 CE. We know they were not even prophetic to what happened in 70 CE because as the history unfolded, the cardinal event was made clearer and clearer.

[Overcame Faith]

Reason Number 1: The god of the Bible does not exist.

 

The number one reason why no one should fear end-time scenarios is because the god of the Bible does not exist. This is important because Christian end-time scenarios are all ultimately based on prophecies allegedly given by this god. If this god does not exist (and he doesn't), then he never gave any prophecies at all which eliminates the Christian end-time belief system.

 

I will give my major reasons for concluding that the god of the bible does not exist. However, before I do, I want to make something clear. In this post, I am not arguing that there is no type of deity whatsoever. The purpose of this thread has been to debunk Christian end-time scenarios. Therefore, my purpose in this thread has not been to convince anyone that there is no god at all. While I have seen no evidence to support the existence of any god, I am unable to prove that one does not exist. On the other hand, I am personally convinced that the god of the bible does not exist.

 

My method is what I have said many times in a number of posts. It is to look at what the bible says and to determine whether it supports itself. I do not look to what apologists say because if the bible is true, my belief is that it will confirm itself without the need for help from anyone.

 

When it comes to the existence of bible god, the bible is self-defeating. What I will show is that the bible gives various characteristics of the god depicted therein and then either contradicts itself or what is said is proven wrong through our human experience. These, in turn, demonstrate that the characteristics of god as stated in the bible are not true. If they are not true, then the only conclusion is that the god defined in the bible does not exist.

 

What follows is not exhaustive, but I think it will serve to demonstrate how I came to the conclusion I did.

 

1. The bible says god is good. Psalm 25:8, Psalm 34:8, Psalm 107:1, Nahum 1:7. Yet, depending on the english translation, god is said to have created evil or disasters. Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6. Additionally, the god of the bible is said to have prevented Pharoah from letting the Hebrew slaves leave Egypt by hardening Pharoah's heart (obstructing his free will) so this god could pour out his wrath and torture and kill many innocent egyptians. Exodus 4:21. God also ordered genocide (1 Samual 15:3), condoned slavery (Leviticus 25:44-46), had a bear kill some boys for making fun of Elisha (2 Kings 2:23-24). And we could go on and on with similar atrocities. No matter how one cuts it, these attributes are not those of a "good" god.

 

2. The bible says god is all powerful. Jeremiah 32:17; Psalm 115:3. Yet he could not stop iron chariots from routing his Hebrew army. Judges 1:19. He also is apparently unable to stop Satan absent a whole host of alleged prophetical activities as allegedly depicted in Revelation. Finally, he either cannot or will not forgive sins absent a sacrifice. Hebrews 7:27; Hebrews 9:22; Leviticus 16:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21.

 

3. The bible says god is all knowing. Psalm 147:5. Yet he must test people like Abraham. Genesis 22:1-19; Hebrews 11:17. If god is all knowing, then he would have no need for any testing whatsoever - he would simply know how they would react in any given set of circumstances.

 

4. The bible says god is perfect. Psalm 18:30; Matthew 5:48. Yet, he could not create anything that is perfect. Satan, one of his own creations, rebelled. Isaiah 14:12-15. Human beings are allegedly born with original sin (a monumental failure on god's part). Romans 5:12-14. Finally, there is disease, natural disasters, starvation, and crime that is rampant in our world. If a perfect god cannot create that which is perfect, then he is, by definition, not perfect.

 

5. The bible says god hates human sacrifice. Deuteronomy 12:31. Yet he allegedly orchestrated one through Jesus who Christians claim is wholly man and wholly god. If he was wholly man, then god orchestrated a human sacrifice. Mark 15:27-37; 1 John 2:1-2.

 

6. The bible says god is merciful and forgiving. Daniel 9:9; James 5:11. Yet the bible also says he will not forgive blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Mark 3:29. Additionally, he has no mercy when it comes to hell. He is said to send people to hell forever without any hope of escape. Matthew 18:8; Jude 1:7. That is not mercy.

 

7. The bible says god will give us whatever we ask for in prayer if we believe. Mark 11:24. Yet, our human experience proves this is a lie.

 

8. The bible says god wants us to know him. John 17:3. Yet he has never presented himself to us in an unmistakable way so we may be sure of his existence.

 

The god of the bible does not exist and, therefore, neither do end-time scenarios which the Christians preach.

[stryper]

well done.....now if only we had first page links or something to all the reasons.......

[Overcame Faith]

well done.....now if only we had first page links or something to all the reasons.......

 

As you Requested.

 

Reasons 10 (post 1), 9 (post 1), 8 (post 1), and 7 (post 11):

 

http://www.ex-christ...imes-scenarios/

 

Reason 6 (post 33):

 

http://www.ex-christ...os/page__st__20

 

Reason 5 (post 53):

 

http://www.ex-christ...os/page__st__40

 

Reason 4 (post 69), reason 3 (part 1 of 7) (post 80):

 

http://www.ex-christ...os/page__st__60

 

Reason 3 (part 2 of 7) (post 88), Reason 3 (part 3 of 7) (post 89), Reason 3 (part 4 of 7) (post 90), Reason 3 (part 5 of 7) (post 91):

 

http://www.ex-christ...os/page__st__80

 

Reason 3 (part 6 of 7) (post 111), Reason 3 (part 7 of 7) (post 119):

 

http://www.ex-christ...s/page__st__100

 

Reason 2 (part 1 of 3) (post 122):

 

http://www.ex-christ...s/page__st__120

 

Reason 2 (part 2 of 3) (post 144), Reason 2 (part 3 of 3) (post 158), Reason 1 (post 159):

 

http://www.ex-christ...s/page__st__140

[Overcame Faith]

Here are all ten reasons in capsule form:

 

10. Even all Christians do not accept the interpretation of Revelation, Daniel and other books of the Bible which end-timers use to spread their message of fear.

 

9. There are certain passages in Revelation which are simply physically impossible to happen.

 

8. The alleged prophecies are so vague as to be open to endless interpretation and re-interpretation.

 

7. You have been conditioned to read Revelation, Daniel and other passages from a modern perspective while ignoring what the author was really trying to say.

 

6. To conclude that the alleged prophecies in Revelation, Daniel and other passages relate to us, we must engage in mental gymnastics.

 

5. The extravagant plans and schemes set out for all to see the alleged details of the "end-times" are neither smart nor necessary.

 

4. The establishment of the modern nation of Israel has no prophetic significance.

 

3. The book of Revelation is not a book of prophecy about end-times events that we or anyone else will ever experience.

 

2. There are no prophets and no prophecies; never have been and never will be.

 

1. The god of the Bible does not exist.

[stryper]

Thanks.

[mymistake]

<deleted>

[mymistake]

<deleted>

[★ Citsonga ★]

Based on reason 10, 3-9 are invalid reasons for not believing the end time prophecies. IOW, Your reason 10 self refutes reasons 3-9.

 

Reason 2 is begging the question. You are asserting no prophecy to claim prophecy does not exist

 

Reason 1 is indirectly begging the question. You are asserting no God to claim His prophecy does not exist

 

Go back and read the actual arguments to see the points being made instead of just mindlessly commenting on the titles. Sheesh!

[bornagainathiest]

Here are all ten reasons in capsule form:

 

10. Even all Christians do not accept the interpretation of Revelation, Daniel and other books of the Bible which end-timers use to spread their message of fear.

 

9. There are certain passages in Revelation which are simply physically impossible to happen.

 

8. The alleged prophecies are so vague as to be open to endless interpretation and re-interpretation.

 

7. You have been conditioned to read Revelation, Daniel and other passages from a modern perspective while ignoring what the author was really trying to say.

 

6. To conclude that the alleged prophecies in Revelation, Daniel and other passages relate to us, we must engage in mental gymnastics.

 

5. The extravagant plans and schemes set out for all to see the alleged details of the "end-times" are neither smart nor necessary.

 

4. The establishment of the modern nation of Israel has no prophetic significance.

 

3. The book of Revelation is not a book of prophecy about end-times events that we or anyone else will ever experience.

 

2. There are no prophets and no prophecies; never have been and never will be.

 

1. The god of the Bible does not exist.

 

Based on reason 10, 3-9 are invalid reasons for not believing the end time prophecies. IOW, Your reason 10 self refutes reasons 3-9.

 

Please say why this so OC. Otherwise you're asking us to take what you say on faith.

 

Reason 2 is begging the question. You are asserting no prophecy to claim prophecy does not exist

 

More explanation needed here. We simpletons need your help.

 

Reason 1 is indirectly begging the question. You are asserting no God to claim His prophecy does not exist

 

Hmmm. That's odd.

I thought Reason #1 was directly begging the question. Can you please explain why you think it is indirect?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[LivingLife]

Aren't the xians supposed to stay in the Den?

 

I mean this thread has bugger all to do with woo. It is a counter apologetic and not a place to debate.

 

Please mods, clean this well thought out thread of this garbage and then delete this post of mine.

 

This is after all a pinned topic. If OC wants to debate this, he can do so as a C+P to the Den.

 

Pretty please.

[buffettphan]

Aren't the xians supposed to stay in the Den?

 

I mean this thread has bugger all to do with woo. It is a counter apologetic and not a place to debate.

 

Please mods, clean this well thought out thread of this garbage and then delete this post of mine.

 

This is after all a pinned topic. If OC wants to debate this, he can do so as a C+P to the Den.

 

Pretty please.

 

 

I agree with you LL. This thread has so much useful information to help deconverting/deconverted christians overcome the trauma and fear from being indoctrinated with all the end-times BS. The last thing needed is for it to be polluted with christianize.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Aren't the xians supposed to stay in the Den?

 

I mean this thread has bugger all to do with woo. It is a counter apologetic and not a place to debate.

 

Please mods, clean this well thought out thread of this garbage and then delete this post of mine.

 

This is after all a pinned topic. If OC wants to debate this, he can do so as a C+P to the Den.

 

Pretty please.

 

Though I agree that this thread shouldn't be muddied down, the rules only prohibit it in the Testimonies Of Former Christians and Ex-Christian Life forums.

[Ouroboros]

Though I agree that this thread shouldn't be muddied down, the rules only prohibit it in the Testimonies Of Former Christians and Ex-Christian Life forums.

You're absolutely right. And I can see LL's point too, so I unapproved OC's posts this time.

[Overcame Faith]

Though I agree that this thread shouldn't be muddied down, the rules only prohibit it in the Testimonies Of Former Christians and Ex-Christian Life forums.

You're absolutely right. And I can see LL's point too, so I unapproved OC's posts this time.

 

Given that OC's statements, points, questions or whatever they were have been removed by Ouroboros, I'll not attempt to respond.

[Ouroboros]

Given that OC's statements, points, questions or whatever they were have been removed by Ouroboros, I'll not attempt to respond.

Go ahead. Don't worry about it. I can bring the posts back if y'all want. They're not gone yet, only in the trashbin.

[LivingLife]

Perhaps move it to Ex-Christian Life if that stops the crazies from adding their drivel. I think we all know the spin of end timez, it is not like it is some new revelation but if it helps confused folk exit the mayhem, all the better it should stand as a counter "apologetic".

 

A lot more thought and time go into posts like these and give a clear perspective of origins of thought et al.

[micksherlock]

The topic of being fearful of end-time scenarios is a recurring theme on this site. It is an understandable fear given the intensity with which so many Christians believe in it all. The great success of the “Left Behind” series is a testament to how pervasive such thinking is within our society.

 

End-times theology invokes almost all elements of Christian theology and does so in a very frightening manner. It posits that god can see into the future and that he enlisted prophets to warn others about future events. It promises via the rapture that Christians will not be involved in the carnage that is to come, but woe to those whose timing in accepting Jesus is not perfect because they will be “left behind” to face almost unutterable horror. It transforms Jesus from a forgiving and loving son of god to the vengeful judge who through the simple act of breaking seven seals unleashes terrible destruction and painful deaths. It pits good against evil with Satan taking an active role in deceiving people. Perhaps worst of all is that the simple mistake of taking the “mark of the beast” no matter whether all one was trying to do was to feed one’s children will result in an eternity in hell along with those same children.

 

Having said all of that, I want to make it clear that none of it is true. And I mean none of it. The way I want to try to help those who need help in this area is to give the top ten reasons why I am convinced with 100% certainty that none of it is true. There are, of course, reasons in addition to what I will list, but these are mine.

 

By starting this thread, I am inviting those of you who would like to discuss any of it in more detail to post your thoughts, concerns, and questions. Perhaps together we can make some progress in coming to the truth and helping to convince you of the truth that just might help set you free from this real fear you may be feeling.

 

I will post the Top Ten Reasons Not to Fear Biblical End-Times Scenarios part by part since I do not have the time to write it all out and post it all at once. I will begin by posting Reasons 10, 9, and 8. I will post others later as I am able.

 

Reason Number 10.

 

Even all Christians do not accept the interpretation of Revelation, Daniel and other books of the Bible which end-timers use to spread their message of fear.

 

When you really start looking into what the end-timers say, you will find that even among Christians there is vehement disagreement. There is a debate among end-timers on whether there is a pre-wrath rapture, a post-wrath rapture, or whether there is a rapture at all. They cannot agree on issues such as whether Jesus’ alleged prophecy in Matthew 24 refers to our times or, as some Christians say, whether it dealt only with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE by the Romans. And not all Christians agree that Revelation deals with future events at all. Some Christian scholars will admit that the Book of Revelation was meant as an encouragement to first century Christians who were being persecuted and that the infamous Mark of the Beast, 666, was Caesar Nero.

 

What many end-time preachers like to make you think is that they somehow have unraveled the mystery of end-time events and that god or the holy spirit has allowed them to interpret Revelation, Daniel and other apocalyptic books in the light of our times. But take the time to listen to these guys and listen very closely. I really mean this. Listen to the likes of Hal Lindsey, Grant Jefferies, and others. You will find them disagreeing with each other all the time. The very fact that Christians do not agree across the board is solid evidence that no god has provided any information to anyone about end-times issues. Because if god truly intended to warn us about something so horrible as what the end-timers claim is coming, doesn’t it make sense that he would do it in a way that would be unambiguous?

 

Reason Number 9.

 

There are certain passages in Revelation which are simply physically impossible to happen in reality.

 

Quoted below is my favorite example of how some of what is said in Revelation is simply impossible to happen.

 

13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

 

Revelation 9:13-16.

 

In case you need help with the math, the number of mounted troops is 200,000,000. End-timers love to point to China and say how China today boasts of an army of 200,000,000 and thus uses that as one of the signs that the end is near. The scenario they like to portray is that everybody is ready for this great battle of Armageddon and that, among the other armies, this Chinese Army of 200,000,000 comes onto the field of battle and then Jesus halts the whole thing and comes down in judgment.

 

I have actually seen Armageddon. In 1979, my Navy ship went to Israel and I went on a tour. One of the places that our tour guide took us was to Armageddon. Yes, it is an actual place in Israel. It is a piece of land surrounded by mountains with a pass through the mountains to the flat area. I can tell you from my personal experience that the place could not hold 200,000,000 soldiers.

 

But set aside for a moment the impossibility of 200,000,000 soldiers plus the other armies to assemble there and just think about deploying 200,000,000 soldiers. That is the equivalent of two-thirds of the population of the entire United States. Anyone who has been involved in hurricane evacuations knows what it is like just to get several hundred thousand people out of a city. It is terribly difficult. It would be impossible to equip, train, and then deploy the equivalent of two-thirds of the population of the entire United States onto a battlefield.

 

Besides all of that, China does not boast an army of 200,000,000. It’s a sizable army, several million, but nowhere near 200,000,000. Here’s an article to read:

 

http://www.defpro.co...s/details/9524/

 

Reason Number 8.

 

The alleged prophecies are so vague as to be open to endless interpretation and re-interpretation.

 

Think about this carefully. If god really wanted to warn you about upcoming end-time events, wouldn’t he do so in a way you and everyone else would have no reasonable doubts about the truth? Of course he would if he were just. So let’s take a look at a few examples of what is supposed to act as a warning to you that we are living in the end-times:

 

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

Matthew 24:3-14

 

Read this passage very carefully. It is one that end-timers love to point to in an effort to convince people that we are living in the end-times and that Jesus is about to return. But each and every one of these so-called signs of the times is so vague as to apply to any time in the last two thousand years, with one possible exception which I will address separately. Saying there will be wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, and false Messiahs is saying nothing. I could make those predictions for this decade and I would be absolutely correct. I know this with virtual certainty and the reason I know it is that the past is my guide. Now show me something written in the year 90 that says specifically that Germany will invade Poland in 1939 thus leading to a world war in which millions will be killed and you have my attention. But something this general and vague means nothing.

 

It is verse 14 which is the only verse that is arguably not vague. “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” The churches I am familiar with use this verse as an incentive to evangelize all over the world as a way to usher in the return of Jesus. To them it is a simple formula: Preach the gospel all over the world and Jesus returns.

 

Even though I said that verse 14 was not vague, you should read it carefully to make sure you understand it. It can be broken down as follows:

 

1. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations…

 

2. …and then the end will come.

 

When viewed as I have broken it down, we can see the true meaning of the words. The first part which says, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations….” is what must happen before the second part can happen, “…and then the end will come.” However, nowhere in the verse are we told how long after the gospel is preached in the whole world that the end will come. So the gospel could be preached all over the world to satisfy the first part of Matthew 24:14 and thousands of years could pass before the end will come. I believe that this is a fair reading of the passage. And in a fair reading, it has no predictive value whatsoever. So even if some preacher proclaims that the gospel has been presented to the entire world, that means nothing according to a fair reading of Matthew 24:14.

 

Wow, This is really well done. I also wrote an article called Armageddon; The Self-fulfilling Prophecy, but this was much better than my article. I loved the way you summed it up. Good work!