Ouroboros Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Why scare people? A god of love should act like a god of love, no? And I think the Bible says something about that where there is fear there is no love, or where there is love there is no fear. (Something like that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I agree with everything you cited. Absolutely. But I don't agree that the images are meant to be understood literally. Jesus used human language and concepts to give us an idea of things beyond our known world. Howver you look at it, it's scary language to use. O.k., so people 2000 years ago were much simpler and didn't understand things as we do today, but even so, when you are considering a god of love, there doesn't appear to be much love handed out with the words that were used. Why scare people? A god of love should act like a god of love, no? Or have the words re-written for people of today in nice words. It was pretty much the Romans who designed Christianity, and I agree the original Jewish Gehenna was much more acceptable, but not scary enough for the Romans, masters of fear tactics! Just a thought! I don’t know if 2000 years ago people were much simpler. They weren’t so technologically advanced but they understood suffering, sadness, anger, joy, mercy, rebellion, etc. And they understood their own language and culture better than we do. They expressed abstract ideas in concrete terms - they understood this. It’s the “Romans” - the Greek-thinkers who “designed Christianity” who didn’t understand, as you seemed to hint at. But do we have to accept Roman thinking as the “Truth” - or can we go back to what scripture said and read it not with Roman glasses but Jewish? Don’t you think someone who loves you will warn you to stay away from a dangerous path? Is it a scare tactic for an employer to tell his employee that if they don’t improve their work they will lose their job? God told people what their choices would bring - He was clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I think the “locked doors” concept is filled with meaning. I do believe in an “eternal hell” - an eternal place of separation … I just don’t believe the “fiery torture” thing. I believe such concrete language gives us an image of “hell” but it wouldn’t be faithful to Jewish literature to give these passages a literal meaning. Oh I can see the "meaning" in the phrase, I just don't put much by it. Well, you can believe what you want to believe. How would it be faithful to Jewish literature? There are many concepts of Hell in Judaism either based off Gehenna, Daniel 12, and even souls rising above a Purgatory to the Olam Habah. People have nit picked what they want to believe out of religious texts for quite some time. Whether or not there is fiery torture is beside the point, because it is still based on a system of divine punishment that is saying finite deeds equal infinite punishment. No one’s deeds (good or bad) will bring them to heaven or to hell. It’s about relationship, not deeds. That’s why the “locked doors on the inside” image is so powerful - those people have said no to relationship with God and locked Him out. They chose. If God were punishing them the doors would be locked on the outside so they couldn’t escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted February 9, 2011 Author Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2011 I agree with everything you cited. Absolutely. But I don't agree that the images are meant to be understood literally. Jesus used human language and concepts to give us an idea of things beyond our known world. Howver you look at it, it's scary language to use. O.k., so people 2000 years ago were much simpler and didn't understand things as we do today, but even so, when you are considering a god of love, there doesn't appear to be much love handed out with the words that were used. Why scare people? A god of love should act like a god of love, no? Or have the words re-written for people of today in nice words. It was pretty much the Romans who designed Christianity, and I agree the original Jewish Gehenna was much more acceptable, but not scary enough for the Romans, masters of fear tactics! Just a thought! I don’t know if 2000 years ago people were much simpler. They weren’t so technologically advanced but they understood suffering, sadness, anger, joy, mercy, rebellion, etc. And they understood their own language and culture better than we do. They expressed abstract ideas in concrete terms - they understood this. It’s the “Romans” - the Greek-thinkers who “designed Christianity” who didn’t understand, as you seemed to hint at. But do we have to accept Roman thinking as the “Truth” - or can we go back to what scripture said and read it not with Roman glasses but Jewish? Don’t you think someone who loves you will warn you to stay away from a dangerous path? Is it a scare tactic for an employer to tell his employee that if they don’t improve their work they will lose their job? God told people what their choices would bring - He was clear. Walker,Walker, my friend........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I agree with everything you cited. Absolutely. But I don't agree that the images are meant to be understood literally. Jesus used human language and concepts to give us an idea of things beyond our known world. Howver you look at it, it's scary language to use. O.k., so people 2000 years ago were much simpler and didn't understand things as we do today, but even so, when you are considering a god of love, there doesn't appear to be much love handed out with the words that were used. Why scare people? A god of love should act like a god of love, no? Or have the words re-written for people of today in nice words. It was pretty much the Romans who designed Christianity, and I agree the original Jewish Gehenna was much more acceptable, but not scary enough for the Romans, masters of fear tactics! Just a thought! Punishment without chance of rehabilitation is just revenge. Not a very god-like character trait. God gives you a zillion "second" chances. The thing is, the more you choose separation from Him the harder it will be for you to change your mind (possible but harder). We get set in our ways (hearts harden). Once someone makes hell (separation) their final choice, after seeing God and everything clearly, they're not going to change their mind. Why would they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted February 9, 2011 Author Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2011 I agree with everything you cited. Absolutely. But I don't agree that the images are meant to be understood literally. Jesus used human language and concepts to give us an idea of things beyond our known world. Howver you look at it, it's scary language to use. O.k., so people 2000 years ago were much simpler and didn't understand things as we do today, but even so, when you are considering a god of love, there doesn't appear to be much love handed out with the words that were used. Why scare people? A god of love should act like a god of love, no? Or have the words re-written for people of today in nice words. It was pretty much the Romans who designed Christianity, and I agree the original Jewish Gehenna was much more acceptable, but not scary enough for the Romans, masters of fear tactics! Just a thought! Punishment without chance of rehabilitation is just revenge. Not a very god-like character trait. God gives you a zillion "second" chances. The thing is, the more you choose separation from Him the harder it will be for you to change your mind (possible but harder). We get set in our ways (hearts harden). Once someone makes hell (separation) their final choice, after seeing God and everything clearly, they're not going to change their mind. Why would they? You are so intelligent in so many other ways my friend. I can't believe you believe this. Where do you get these beliefs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Why scare people? A god of love should act like a god of love, no? And I think the Bible says something about that where there is fear there is no love, or where there is love there is no fear. (Something like that) 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. (NIV) (“perfect” carries the meaning of “complete, finished, full grown, mature”) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I agree with everything you cited. Absolutely. But I don't agree that the images are meant to be understood literally. Jesus used human language and concepts to give us an idea of things beyond our known world. Howver you look at it, it's scary language to use. O.k., so people 2000 years ago were much simpler and didn't understand things as we do today, but even so, when you are considering a god of love, there doesn't appear to be much love handed out with the words that were used. Why scare people? A god of love should act like a god of love, no? Or have the words re-written for people of today in nice words. It was pretty much the Romans who designed Christianity, and I agree the original Jewish Gehenna was much more acceptable, but not scary enough for the Romans, masters of fear tactics! Just a thought! Punishment without chance of rehabilitation is just revenge. Not a very god-like character trait. God gives you a zillion "second" chances. The thing is, the more you choose separation from Him the harder it will be for you to change your mind (possible but harder). We get set in our ways (hearts harden). Once someone makes hell (separation) their final choice, after seeing God and everything clearly, they're not going to change their mind. Why would they? You are so intelligent in so many other ways my friend. I can't believe you believe this. Where do you get these beliefs? Believe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted February 9, 2011 Author Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2011 I agree with everything you cited. Absolutely. But I don't agree that the images are meant to be understood literally. Jesus used human language and concepts to give us an idea of things beyond our known world. Howver you look at it, it's scary language to use. O.k., so people 2000 years ago were much simpler and didn't understand things as we do today, but even so, when you are considering a god of love, there doesn't appear to be much love handed out with the words that were used. Why scare people? A god of love should act like a god of love, no? Or have the words re-written for people of today in nice words. It was pretty much the Romans who designed Christianity, and I agree the original Jewish Gehenna was much more acceptable, but not scary enough for the Romans, masters of fear tactics! Just a thought! Punishment without chance of rehabilitation is just revenge. Not a very god-like character trait. God gives you a zillion "second" chances. The thing is, the more you choose separation from Him the harder it will be for you to change your mind (possible but harder). We get set in our ways (hearts harden). Once someone makes hell (separation) their final choice, after seeing God and everything clearly, they're not going to change their mind. Why would they? You are so intelligent in so many other ways my friend. I can't believe you believe this. Where do you get these beliefs? Believe! Yes, you are right. It is your right to believe. I will not fight that. You go ahead. I'm glad you are happy. Back to my original post - will we all be able to recognize each other in heaven? (of course,If we make it there!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 No one’s deeds (good or bad) will bring them to heaven or to hell. It’s about relationship, not deeds. That’s why the “locked doors on the inside” image is so powerful - those people have said no to relationship with God and locked Him out. They chose. If God were punishing them the doors would be locked on the outside so they couldn’t escape. I know, I've heard it before Walker. In fact I even said many of the same things that you are saying now. The problem is you present a false dichotomy, either love God and be in a relationship with Him, or be relegated for eternity in Hell (however you define it). It's still based on a tribal, "us vs. them" view of the world. Even if the so called doors are locked on the inside, why are people's choices between these two destinations? Seems rather unimaginative... It's not a powerful statement, because I could equate it with, "America, love it or leave it." Nuance of beliefs and layers of feelings are ignored creating a black and white world-view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Yes, you are right. It is your right to believe. I will not fight that. You go ahead. I'm glad you are happy. Back to my original post - will we all be able to recognize each other in heaven? (of course,If we make it there!) Yes, I think we will be able to recognize each other in heaven (and in hell). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 No one’s deeds (good or bad) will bring them to heaven or to hell. It’s about relationship, not deeds. That’s why the “locked doors on the inside” image is so powerful - those people have said no to relationship with God and locked Him out. They chose. If God were punishing them the doors would be locked on the outside so they couldn’t escape. I know, I've heard it before Walker. In fact I even said many of the same things that you are saying now. The problem is you present a false dichotomy, either love God and be in a relationship with Him, or be relegated for eternity in Hell (however you define it). It's still based on a tribal, "us vs. them" view of the world. Even if the so called doors are locked on the inside, why are people's choices between these two destinations? Seems rather unimaginative... It's not a powerful statement, because I could equate it with, "America, love it or leave it." Nuance of beliefs and layers of feelings are ignored creating a black and white world-view. Either one is in God’s Presence or one separates himself from God’s Presence. You can’t be half with God and half separated. It’s not an “us vs. them” because you’re invited and welcomed to be with God. And God is not against you - He welcomes you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted February 10, 2011 Author Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2011 Yes, you are right. It is your right to believe. I will not fight that. You go ahead. I'm glad you are happy. Back to my original post - will we all be able to recognize each other in heaven? (of course,If we make it there!) Yes, I think we will be able to recognize each other in heaven (and in hell). Walker you say you 'think'. I want some evidence. Got any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Either one is in God’s Presence or one separates himself from God’s Presence. You can’t be half with God and half separated. It’s not an “us vs. them” because you’re invited and welcomed to be with God. And God is not against you - He welcomes you. Right...anyways. Still a false dichotomy and setting up two non-falsifiable and largely speculative belief system based on subjective experiences and an obviously contradictory set of holy texts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 the people recognised elijah and moses on the mount of transfiguration, so i would presume we be recognisable in heaven after all. on a less serious note, my friend's father just passed on 3 months back, and during his last days, he told my friend that he saw his dead parents and angels (friend and family are catholics)....... 1st hand experience,,,,, so another evidence of recognito after death...... so technically in christians heaven or hell, we should be able to recognise each other,,,,,, but in Ghost Whisperers series, we are also be to recognise my departed loved ones,,,, so no doubt about it and in Harry Potter's world, you are able to recognise but in chinese cultural reincarnation theory, when you die, you will pass a bridge, and an old lady will give you a bowl of soup to drink to erase the memories of previous lives before you are being born again,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, BUT IF there is no heaven or hell, there is no identity crisis,,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted February 10, 2011 Author Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2011 the people recognised elijah and moses on the mount of transfiguration, so i would presume we be recognisable in heaven after all. on a less serious note, my friend's father just passed on 3 months back, and during his last days, he told my friend that he saw his dead parents and angels (friend and family are catholics)....... 1st hand experience,,,,, so another evidence of recognito after death...... so technically in christians heaven or hell, we should be able to recognise each other,,,,,, but in Ghost Whisperers series, we are also be to recognise my departed loved ones,,,, so no doubt about it and in Harry Potter's world, you are able to recognise but in chinese cultural reincarnation theory, when you die, you will pass a bridge, and an old lady will give you a bowl of soup to drink to erase the memories of previous lives before you are being born again,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, BUT IF there is no heaven or hell, there is no identity crisis,,,,,, Good one Pratt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. (NIV) (“perfect” carries the meaning of “complete, finished, full grown, mature”) Yes. So God, the perfect, complete, finished, full grown, and mature being put fear in people by threatening with Hell. "Praise me or else!" I give my kids more love and less fear than your petty and childish God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Yes, you are right. It is your right to believe. I will not fight that. You go ahead. I'm glad you are happy. Back to my original post - will we all be able to recognize each other in heaven? (of course,If we make it there!) Yes, I think we will be able to recognize each other in heaven (and in hell). Walker you say you 'think'. I want some evidence. Got any? Jesus was known to be Jesus when He was in a (His) glorified body. Revelation speaks of people - elders, God’s people. At the end of Revelation the world is redeemed - God dwells with His people. This is a redeemed/renewed Eden - Adam and Eve knew each other in Eden. Plus, God created us as individuals with unique personalities - who we are is important. The “seed” of who we are will “ripen” (mature, be made complete) to be imperishable and immortal - but we keep our identity. Everything points to relationship with God and others - we abide together. There is no Biblical picture of people in heaven floating on their private clouds, playing harps. “Heaven” is a redeemed earth/world with a redeemed people living with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted February 10, 2011 Author Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2011 Yes, you are right. It is your right to believe. I will not fight that. You go ahead. I'm glad you are happy. Back to my original post - will we all be able to recognize each other in heaven? (of course,If we make it there!) Yes, I think we will be able to recognize each other in heaven (and in hell). Walker you say you 'think'. I want some evidence. Got any? Jesus was known to be Jesus when He was in a (His) glorified body. Revelation speaks of people - elders, God’s people. At the end of Revelation the world is redeemed - God dwells with His people. This is a redeemed/renewed Eden - Adam and Eve knew each other in Eden. Plus, God created us as individuals with unique personalities - who we are is important. The “seed” of who we are will “ripen” (mature, be made complete) to be imperishable and immortal - but we keep our identity. Everything points to relationship with God and others - we abide together. There is no Biblical picture of people in heaven floating on their private clouds, playing harps. “Heaven” is a redeemed earth/world with a redeemed people living with God. I want clouds Walker and I want to sit by you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Plus, God created us as individuals with unique personalities Really? Wow! He really created you? You were not born through a natural process of a sperm fertilizing an ova and making a zygote. You actually were one of the special creations by God? How was it? When did it happen? Which age did he create you to be? Did he make you 10 years old or 15? You just poofed into air, just like that? Amazing. We actually have a live God-created person here! Tell us more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Either one is in God’s Presence or one separates himself from God’s Presence. You can’t be half with God and half separated. It’s not an “us vs. them” because you’re invited and welcomed to be with God. And God is not against you - He welcomes you. Right...anyways. Still a false dichotomy and setting up two non-falsifiable and largely speculative belief system based on subjective experiences and an obviously contradictory set of holy texts. Contradictory set of holy texts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. (NIV) (“perfect” carries the meaning of “complete, finished, full grown, mature”) Yes. So God, the perfect, complete, finished, full grown, and mature being put fear in people by threatening with Hell. "Praise me or else!" I give my kids more love and less fear than your petty and childish God. No threats. Do you never warn your children of possible bad consequences from a harmful choice? You let them choose to do whatever they want with no input from you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Jesus was known to be Jesus when He was in a (His) glorified body. Revelation speaks of people - elders, God’s people. At the end of Revelation the world is redeemed - God dwells with His people. This is a redeemed/renewed Eden - Adam and Eve knew each other in Eden. Plus, God created us as individuals with unique personalities - who we are is important. The “seed” of who we are will “ripen” (mature, be made complete) to be imperishable and immortal - but we keep our identity. Everything points to relationship with God and others - we abide together. There is no Biblical picture of people in heaven floating on their private clouds, playing harps. “Heaven” is a redeemed earth/world with a redeemed people living with God. I want clouds Walker and I want to sit by you! I'm honored, Margee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Contradictory set of holy texts? Yep, do some research, within the Bible. If you claim contradictory sets of passages are metaphorical it is merely a dodging of the question. Anytime someone encounters something they don't like within the Bible it is chalked up to metaphor or it has to be seen in the cultural context, a complete contradiction to the idea that God inspired the "writers" of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 No threats. In Genesis said that if Adam and Eve ate from the tree, they would die. That's a threat. God knew that it was a threat. He tried to scare them to obedience. Do you never warn your children of possible bad consequences from a harmful choice? Absolutely. But I never threatened to lock them into a room that was set on fire and never let them out because they didn't believe me. That would be insane to do something like that. But that's what God does. You let them choose to do whatever they want with no input from you? Of course not. To give input is not the same as put someone on fire for eternity for something small. We're supposed to burn and be tortured for eternity for not believing in Jesus. Not for murdering someone. Not for stealing or raping someone. Not for harming a kid. We're supposed to go there because we didn't "receive" Jesus. It would be like me killing my kids for not believing in me. Our society put people in jail for such behavior. But you're unwilling to do that to your God... Ergo, I have better morals than your God. I'm good. Your God is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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