Brainwashing

[doomguarder]

I personally make a differentiation between books available to student for personal reading (library or borrow shelf), and those use in classes taught by teachers in a public school (private schools can set their own curriculum).

 

If the Bible is in the library, no issue. Students should have access to this as reading material. If the bible is being taught in class (outside of comparative religions, which is not available until college) then I have an issue. Even then I would need to know the context. Creation taught as science is an issue, explaining that many people believe in the bible in social studies and explaining about the faith is not.

 

Same set up for this type of information. Is this book a) in the library, b ) being taught in class (what class?) c) (if so) for what purpose is it being taught? All of this would be relevant to this specific instance for me.

 

I am a product of the public education system, and I am anything but brainwashed. Although the schools may have wanted me to think and act in the way they prescribed, my parents (yup) taught me to think and reason, they taught me to question and speak up when a wrong was done to myself or another.

 

Public schools should only be for learning the basic knowledge and skills need to get started in the world. Parents should be the place kids learn their values and ethics.

 

Gee did I just agree with invictus?

[Ouroboros]

I don't get this.

 

The OP says:

 

Some very religious father is aghast that books provided in his son’s Elementary school include some that show “same-sex” families, not only show them but show them as normal!

 

And yet, we're afraid of calling it indoctrination, but learning to think critical?

 

Isn't presenting informatin and opinion as a concluded fact, regardless of is topic, a basis for indoctrination and adjusting people minds to equal thinking?

 

And how many of the members here on this site every used trigenometry and algebra in their daily life?

 

Dont' get me wrong, I love math, and I had the highest scores in it in school, and I work professionally with computers and programming, and I rarely use any math more complicated than plus, minus and multiplied. But I did learn in history classes all that was good or bad with different countries and cultures over time, and the history books put a different spin on the stories compared to when my dad was in school. School does affect your opinion, if you want it or not. And the monthly Scholastic magazine does push the kid and the parent to consume to support the school. Granted the school is a part and a result of society, but to deny that the school doesn't change you, or you get influenced by the information you get there, I think is blinding yourself.

 

I agree that it's very important that the parents get more involved in teaching the kids values and ethics. Absolutely that is lacking in many families. But if the parents didn't teach their kids, do you really consider that their only opinion about life and society comes from TV and Nintendo only, and nothing from School? I just can't agree to that. Information of any kind, will always affect you.

[Ouroboros]

To put another spin to the topic, why do people do more home schooling today, and is increasing? Is the only reason that school does such a poor job educating the kids or because the drug problem? Or is it because they want to be in control of what the kids learn?

[Asimov]

No one wants to take any responsibility. We would rather blame the schools than acknowledge how Sega played a larger roll in raising our children than we did.

 

Yes....Sega is definitely the problem. Sega sucks ass, we need to raise our kids on Nintendo.

[Dhampir]

Been thinkin' about this recently: There is a basic program of human consciousness that, for all practical purposes is inviolable. It is along these lines that all sub-programming that is done is possible. All brainwashing attempts are a form of programming, however, the reverse is not true.

 

Think about it: We have to instill in our children basic values that it would do well to have them learn without negative experience. We have to teach them not to hit, steal, be rude, or loud. We have to teach them the golden rule, and that sharing is good.

 

One finds it strange that certain things have to also be instilled in children, such as that homos are evil and their lifestyle is wrong, or that people of other ethnic groups want to hurt you.

 

I think that you must delineate between the two concepts, brainwashing and programming, in every case in order to decide how one handles the situation. Programming (read: subprogramming) allows one to more or less divest one's self of the ideas imparted, and while the same is possible with brainwashing, it's specific intent is to impart an idea in such a way as to make it very difficult.

 

From there you have decide which programming ideas are harmful and which are more or less benign. We have to be incredibly arbitrary, in this instance because we are dealing with those that have been brainwashed, don't realize it, nor realize that they are doing the same to their children.

[Ouroboros]

In the religious community, it's to control what kids learn and there are TONS of religious curriculums out there that love to get that money, i.e. Bob Jones University, Abeka, Sonlight, etc.

 

I cannot speak for all homeschoolers but for myself and many people that I know personally (who are doing this in the secular realm), it's a desire to bring a closeness back to family, allow kids to be kids, allow free thinking, free exploration, free choice and also help provide a rich learning evironment that many of us personally do not see the schools fulfilling. 

Isn't this basically agreeing with my point? The religious want to control what the kids learn, but why is that an issue if school doesn't teach them anything that would influence them?

 

Or when you say "allow free thinking, free exploration, free choice", how can that be an issue if school already is free thinking, free exploration and free choice, and the kids actually learn this values there?

 

I feel that you basically are admitting to that I'm correct, without realizing it yourself. Because you're using arguments that are connected with control of the primary influence of thought.

 

Not all of pull kids out because we think that the schools are bad, or that the teachers are bad, we pull em' out so we can grow close to them, and let them enjoy life and all it has to offer, instead of being in a classroom all day long.  We get together with others, they shop with me, go to the library, park, beaches, they learn by living life.  They socialize with everyone we come into contact with, son is not as outgoing as our daughter but hey, we're all different...and he was the schooled one ;-)

I'm not saying this programming from school is bad or good, it can't be avoided. School does influence the kids. Okay, maybe brainwashing is to harsh word, or mind-alteration, or programming, or even sub-programming. But subliminal re-adjustment is happening, for good or for bad. And it's kind of funny, because I agree with Invictus too, that the school is a result of society, and the school is under society's control. The school teaches the kids to adjust and conform to society. It's a must. It has to. If it didn't we would have chaos. This adjustment is a must of modern society, and society will change the curriculum of the school depending on the tides of culture.

 

(I really took the part of the Devils advocate in this topic, didn't I? )

 

I like your approach with the "Natural learning philosophy", that kids have to learn in their own speed. In public school they have to "learn" to follow the crowd. They have to learn to be "normal". Be able to take in and comprehend in the same speed as everyone else, or they get left behind (supposedly Bush rectified this). So again, school is streamlining people, and it's good for society, but not necessarily for the individual.

[Ouroboros]

Oh, you agree. Ok, my bad.

 

At least I managed to stir up the topic a little bit!

 

Serenity, no hard feelings?

[Ouroboros]

I never had any hard feelings at all to begin with. 

 

And yes, you have definately stirred things up which is not out of character for you.  :-)

I like to shake the "forum box" a little now and then. Hehe. Don't want it to get too boring...

[Fweethawt]

Yes....Sega is definitely the problem.  Sega sucks ass, we need to raise our kids on Nintendo.

 

Recent studies have shown, that children who use the Sega game system usually average between a low 'C' and a high 'D' GPA. Whereas those who use the Nintendo game system usually average around the higher C's and lower B's.

 

 

My kids have an X-box and they get straight A's.

[Fweethawt]

School is for math, science, language arts, etc.

 

Home is for the “stuff” that really matters.

Well, God frickin' damn it! I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with you on anything.

 

I totally agree with those statements.

[Ouroboros]

What about PS2? Any studies there?

[Fweethawt]

What about PS2? Any studies there?

All of the parent and Columbine-type killings were a direct result of kids who are PS2 players.

 

 

<<<whispers>>>

Han, I made up that study comment in my other post.

[Ouroboros]

<<<whispers>>>

Han, I made up that study comment in my other post.

<<<whisper even lower>>>

I figured as much, but I wanted funny comeback about the PS2, from you.

[Fweethawt]

<<<whisper even lower>>>

I figured as much, but I wanted funny comeback about the PS2, from you.

<<<whispers even lower than that>>>

It was a sick kind of funny .

[Ouroboros]

<<<whispers even lower than that>>>

It was a sick kind of funny  .

<<whispers really low>>

why are we whispering? is it that someone could hear us?

[Fweethawt]

<<whispers really low>>

why are we whispering? is it that someone could hear us?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HECK IF I KNOW!!!

[Amethyst]

What about PS2? Any studies there?

 

[fundy mode on]Video games are of TeH D3V1L!!!!1!! Anyone who playes video games will go STRAIGHT TO HELL!!1!1!!![/fundy mode off]

 

Heard enough of that during my childhood. Didn't listen, either.

[♦ nivek ♦]

..some content snipped

 

We don’t want to recognize how our children are going into the schools; we only want to complain about the way they come out.

 

No one wants to take any responsibility. We would rather blame the schools than acknowledge how Sega played a larger roll in raising our children than we did.

 

Invictus:

 

That is the problem. I will not relinquish my parental Rights and abilities to the State.

I am the Parent. I am responsible for my son's actions, attitudes and actions.

 

When shit happens and Beastie is accused of something anti-social or even criminal, it is not the fuckin' State paying the bills for whatever happens.

 

I am the final arbiter of my sons life, be double dog damned if anyone or -thing will find their way between what I desire for him.

 

Beastie will never have a game machine in my house. We do have the PC based machines with games, however I rule the time spent on these like a king..

Will not allow my son to sit on his ass for dozens of hours a week (or more) playing games..

 

He has his own firearms, from his birdgun, to several high power rifles and his semi-auto .22. Loves his archery gear and edged weapons. Advanced brown belt in Shudokan Karate, been active in dojo for the past five years.

 

Learning to play a valve trombone and assorted other valved instruments.

 

Kid is given every opportunity to advance, learn, practice. He is an intelligent teen smartass, however he can back his smartness up with words, failing words, fists..

 

Politically aware and learning tons in our conversations about government and *rules*.

 

I'll not let the State take my Son from me and give me back a Prole..

 

May be, nahh, am a raging asshole, but I am responsible anusoid who elects to keep control of daBoy..

 

k, proud Dad of elBeasto, L

[doomguarder]

I am so happy there are parents out there like you nivek.

 

[Amethyst]

Call me a geek, but I don't think there's anything inherently evil about computer games. Now, if you go to the extreme and play them 24/7, yeah, that's not healthy. In moderation, though, I don't think there's anything wrong with them. Certain games should obviously not be played by young kids, but it's up to the parent(s) to make sure the kids don't get inappropriate games. It sounds like Nivek is doing his job.

[HadouKen24]

Depending on what kind of game you play, they can improve spacial reasoning, problem solving, decision making, etc. Games are a lot more complex than the original Mario these days. I'm certain that some amount of playing video games isn't just neutral, but actually good for you.

 

Granted, I do play just a bit too many video games. But it's saved my ass a couple times. The lightning decision-making skills I've developed has kept me out of traffic accidents.

[Amethyst]

Depending on what kind of game you play, they can improve spacial reasoning, problem solving, decision making, etc.

 

Not to mention, they teach computer skills, something all kids will need eventually. I learned how to use computers at about 11 because of computer games. Okay, so most of them were on actual floppies and had to be loaded in DOS at the time, but it gave me a greater understanding of how computers worked.

[Ouroboros]

Not to mention, they teach computer skills, something all kids will need eventually.

The modern army is going towards joystick and monitor oriented technology. The planes and rockets and whatnots will require hand-eye-coordination skills.

 

And more and more remote-robot technology is used for bomb squads, under water-surface searches, submarines, under-water repairs on oil platforms, space shuttles and so on.

[Guest aexapo]

I was “grooving” with this until a thought hit me. We are always condemning the Christ Cultists for taking young children and stuffing their heads with dogma before they are old enough to formulate their own opinions on religion. We call this brainwashing and it truly is that. Now we have a school board using the very same techniques to push the reverse of that coin. They are in effect brainwashing these children and even if we agree with what these children are being taught, is it moral for us to do so at such an early age? Are we any better than the Cultists that wish to instill their “propaganda” into the minds of the innocent? Should we wait until after the age of nine to instill this information, when the child is more mature and better able to think for him/herself?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I meant to reply to this yesterday, but my connection kept kicking out on me.

 

Anyway, the short version of my response to the original post -- if the object of the lesson is a matter of fact, and not a matter of ideology, then the teacher is doing their job -- teaching. Vice-versa, the teacher is propagandizing.

 

On the topic at hand . . . is teaching kids that gays are normal an opinion, or a fact? I don't see a problem if it were in a class teaching about different cultures, different families, etc. I can see age being an issue with "what they do," and little Johnnie may NEVER be old enough to handle the clitoral explorations of Amber and Suzanne.

 

If teaching "tolerance" is simply an opinion . . . then it shouldn't be a subject taught regardless of the issue the lesson is trying to correct (in this case, societal homophobia). If it's propaganda to teach gay tolerance, then it's propaganda to teach Jew tolerance, or gender tolerance, or racial tolerance.

 

Now, I do agree with many of the responses about problems in education . . . our publicly funded schools should teach our kids the way the prep schools teach the rich: the three R's, and then teach "the classics" (literature, language, philosophy, ethics, etc.). I'm not sure why economics, sociology, home ec, physics, and chemistry are required courses for high school, or why a good deal of public educational funds are appropriated to make high schools "sports farms." We've scattered it so that the kids can never master anything, and barely learn the basics. "Cafeteria" should be the way the kids eat -- not the way they learn.

 

Teach 'em the basics, and teach them how to think (which is the point of a classical education). Let college specialize 'em.

[Fweethawt]

The modern army is going towards joystick and monitor oriented technology. The planes and rockets and whatnots will require hand-eye-coordination skills.

 

And more and more remote-robot technology is used for bomb squads, under water-surface searches, submarines, under-water repairs on oil platforms, space shuttles and so on.

 

Can you imagine that?

 

A day will come when soldiers will all gather in one big room, place a massive order for pizza and beer, and wipe out entire societies in a game-a-thon type atmosphere.

 

Aww! Check it out dude!!! I took him out, and half of his neighborhood with him!

 

You sonuvabitch! That one was mine!!!