The On-going, 'can Of Worms'

[Margee]

I know that men and women work very hard today and both species seemed to have a lot of stress and responsibility with everyday 'tasks'. Do you think the bible teachings have helped create more arguments in the home today? Has the bible made it harder on our relationships, when it comes to women and men's roles?

 

Even though we are out of this indoctrination - do we still feel the same way? This might open up a 'can of worms' and I don't mean it to, because I would just like to hear honestly, what everyone thinks about this issue.

 

I really don't want a 'war' to start between us women and men!

When you were all involved in Christianity (as partners), how did you see your 'roles' as husbands and wives? Did you follow the bible's suggestions on the man being the head and the women taking a back seat 'so to say'? I'll start this off with this written by some of a Christians pastors quotes:

''This is because women are made to be men's helpers''. Genesis 2:20-22

''Man is the spiritual leader of the house.Women should be faithful. In the old testament, when a woman commits adultery or sexual immorality, she is brought to her father's steps and stoned.''

He continues to say: ''You will notice that woman are often very aggressive, domineering women who love to be in control. They are frequently the disciplinarian in the home and usually have quiet husbands who let her rule. They hate being told they are out of God’s divine order and usually – and sometimes aggressively - refuse to listen. If the woman was meek and obedient to the Lord and her husband as she should be, she would never consider a leadership role except to teach children and younger women, and do sacred service as the scriptures clearly tell us.

''There is often an evil spirit behind such domineering behavior in a woman; it is commonly called a Jezebel spirit. If you are in a marriage or attending a church lead by a woman,you will know she has a Jezebel spirit and it would be wise to find another church that is in line with God’s divine order. Why attend a church that is predominantly run by an evil spirit? If a women is ignorant of the scriptures, and wants to obey God, then she will take immediate steps to come under the authority of a man.''

''When a woman is in submission to her husband, as the scriptures say she is to be, then the wife is invaluable and precious to her husband and the church.That is a God-ordained balance.This in no way means that a husband can be unkind or violent towards his wife or children, he must work to become the head of the house. Women are not to be downtrodden, bullied or physically struck.(This is nice!)

They can have an opinion while maintaining submission.

For man was not created from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for the woman, but the woman was created for the man''.

''You married men should live considerately with your wives, with an intelligent recognition, honoring the woman as physically the weaker vessel, but realizing that you are the joint heirs of the grace of life; in order that your prayers may not be hindered or cut off''.

1 Titus 2:3-5 said "Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be always kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God."

End of sermon!..........................................................................................................................................................................................................

Surveys do seem to say that women are more depressed than men, have more physical ailments and stress because of the old fashion 'roles' that men and women have today. Because of our parents (and their parents) following traditions of the roles of men and women from bible times, men and women had these different 'roles' to play.

Now, once apon a time, the men worked the fields and the women did the housework, laundry and cooking. However - the times have changed now. A good percentage of women are working outside of the home full and part time.

Although the number of full-time working females in the U.S.( and other countries) has increased each year since the 1960s, women still do more housework and parenting than their husbands or male partners,according to different studies. In addition to the 30-40 hours a week many women spend working outside the home, housework occupies another 40 hours more. Their husbands or male partners, meanwhile, spend about 13 hours a week on household chores, only a slight increase from men in the 1960s, who contributed about 11 hours weekly.

 

Along gender lines, the husband or male partner might seem as if he's contributing a fair amount. But when you compare the husband or male partner to the woman in the house, there is a big discrepancy. The chores men readily do undertake, such as working on the car and lawn or fixing things around the house, are not routine tasks that contribute to the daily grind of running a household that a women does.

Children are still growing up with the impression that housework is female work, regardless of the employment obligations women may have outside the home.

..............................................................................................................................................

 

The Bible clearly states that women are to be subject to the authority of men and also specifies some very strict rules for women, These few scriptures are directions from the bible on the roles of men and women.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said,....... thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

According to the New Testament; 1 Corinthians 14 34-36 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church .

 

Ephesians 5 :22-24 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

 

Colossians 3 :18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

 

1 Timothy 2:9: Women are to dress modestly, "with shamefacedness" -- "not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array."

 

1 Timothy 2 11-15: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.

 

2 Timothy 3:6-7: For of this sort are they which creep into houses and leave captive silly women laden with sins, led away with diverse lusts, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

1 Peter 3 :1-6: Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

 

Colossians 3:19: Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

 

1 Peter 3:7 : Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

 

What do you think about this whole subject?

[Ouroboros]

... both species...

I just wanted to point out that the two sexes are not two different species. We happen to be of the same species, Homo sapiens.

 

---

 

When it comes to the topic itself, I believe both sexes should have the same say and should come up with decisions together. But who does what is up to them and what fits their situation best. It's sad that the most important tasks are also considered the lowest on the "prestige scale."

[Legion]

I can't believe this is controversial. It is patently obvious that men and women are different physically. Indeed that's why we have different names for the sexes. But furthermore there is evidence to suggest that our mentality is different.

 

Different does not imply that one is above the other! I mean, goddamn!

[stryper]

I think it is an adjusting.

 

The women who work,have a family, and kids seem to me to try to keep the carreer and the traditional roles. So they are trying to pull double duty, or they believe they have to.

 

 

With my wife, she seems much less stressed when she lets me do things. At the same time the other in the relationship need to aware of whats going on. When both are working then both need to do whatever needs to be done around the house. One person should never do everything or feel that they "should".

 

just my opinion.

[Margee]

... both species...

I just wanted to point out that the two sexes are not two different species. We happen to be of the same species, Homo sapiens.

 

 

 

I'll stand corrected on that!

[Legion]

Someone stop me! I'm screaming into the void! I'm speaking truths in an attempt to change the world!

 

Only a motherfucking primate would think that "different" implies that one must be better than the other!

[RankStranger]

... both species...

I just wanted to point out that the two sexes are not two different species. We happen to be of the same species, Homo sapiens.

 

Depends on the context. If she isn't using 'species' in a biological sense... but is simply referring to two or more distinct groups of individuals... then it's not necessarily incorrect to refer to men and women as distinct species.

[Legion]

I think if you care not for language then you care not for people.

[florduh]

I think if you care not for language then you care not for people.

Fo' shizzle.

[Ouroboros]

Depends on the context. If she isn't using 'species' in a biological sense... but is simply referring to two or more distinct groups of individuals... then it's not necessarily incorrect to refer to men and women as distinct species.

I see.

 

There are two different species of the word species, and it depends on which context of species you're talking about if species mean what it means or if it is an euphemism for sexes.

 

Perhaps it's just that you and I are two different genes, and that's why I find a mutation of words like that to be a little frame-shifting. To me, that protein synthesis stood out from the general gene pool, and was worth differentiating from the polynomial.

 

[Margee]

Someone stop me! I'm screaming into the void! I'm speaking truths in an attempt to change the world!

 

Only a motherfucking primate would think that "different" implies that one must be better than the other!

 

 

Legion. What do you mean by this? Would you explain furthur?

[Legion]

I hereby claim the word "species" for biology alone. No other branch of science may use it legitimately unless they are speaking in the context of biology. Hereby, there are no such things as species of rocks, or cars, or computers, or any other non-living system.

 

Also hereby, men and women, are the same species.

 

Thus it has been spoken, and thus it is.

[Legion]

Someone stop me! I'm screaming into the void! I'm speaking truths in an attempt to change the world!

 

Only a motherfucking primate would think that "different" implies that one must be better than the other!

 

 

Legion. What do you mean by this? Would you explain furthur?

Sure. Give me some time to construct a proper explanation Margee.

[RankStranger]

Looks like Legion has had his coffee this morning.

 

 

 

I hereby claim the word "species" for biology alone. No other branch of science may use it legitimately unless they are speaking in the context of biology. Hereby, there are no such things as species of rocks, or cars, or computers, or any other non-living system.

 

Also hereby, men and women, are the same species.

 

Thus it has been spoken, and thus it is.

 

I've got no dog in that fight. But I know some organic chemists who would consider that to be fightin' words.

[fallenleaf]

I hereby claim the word "species" for biology alone. No other branch of science may use it legitimately unless they are speaking in the context of biology. Hereby, there are no such things as species of rocks, or cars, or computers, or any other non-living system.

 

Also hereby, men and women, are the same species.

 

Thus it has been spoken, and thus it is.

 

This seems to be an especially specious claim to make.

[Ouroboros]

I hereby claim the word "species" for biology alone. No other branch of science may use it legitimately unless they are speaking in the context of biology. Hereby, there are no such things as species of rocks, or cars, or computers, or any other non-living system.

 

Also hereby, men and women, are the same species.

 

Thus it has been spoken, and thus it is.

 

This seems to be an especially specious claim to make.

Perhaps even sexy. Maybe it has its own genus even! I guess it's a matter of somatic structure.

 

It would be nice if the membrane words had a bit more cytoplasm though.

 

Sorry. Couldn't help but play on this sidetrack.

 

I'm going to return back to the original topic now.

 

The problem with society today is that women work outside of home, yet they contribute more work at home by doing most chores. It's a tragedy and really shame on the male "species." The couple should evenly share the workload. It's just fair.

[Margee]

I hereby claim the word "species" for biology alone. No other branch of science may use it legitimately unless they are speaking in the context of biology. Hereby, there are no such things as species of rocks, or cars, or computers, or any other non-living system.

 

Also hereby, men and women, are the same species.

 

Thus it has been spoken, and thus it is.

 

This seems to be an especially specious claim to make.

 

Ok,ok - I've already stood 'corrected' for using the wrong word, and I have done enough research to know that there are differences between men and women. Physically and mentally, I understand that we have different brains and strengths.

 

The topic was - Do you think the bible (because of assigning us different roles by bible god) has affected the way we all play out roles and live together today?

[Margee]

I hereby claim the word "species" for biology alone. No other branch of science may use it legitimately unless they are speaking in the context of biology. Hereby, there are no such things as species of rocks, or cars, or computers, or any other non-living system.

 

Also hereby, men and women, are the same species.

 

Thus it has been spoken, and thus it is.

 

This seems to be an especially specious claim to make.

Perhaps even sexy. Maybe it has its own genus even! I guess it's a matter of somatic structure.

 

It would be nice if the membrane words had a bit more cytoplasm though.

 

Sorry. Couldn't help but play on this sidetrack.

 

I'm going to return back to the original topic now.

 

The problem with society today is that women work outside of home, yet they contribute more work at home by doing most chores. It's a tragedy and really shame on the male "species." The couple should evenly share the workload. It's just fair.

 

Now that's better Ouroboros! You are my friend today!

[BrotherJosh]

The topic was - Do you think the bible (because of assigning us different roles by bible god) has affected the way we all play out roles and live together today?

 

Yes, I think the Bible, specifically the Pauline epistles, has given much ammo to sexists who insist that women need to be subservient to the male of the household. Women can't have any authority in the home, church, politically, socially, in the military etc... according to many hard-core Bawble thumpin' fundies. I think it's a system so thoroughly and subtly entrenched in our society, I even know women who are thought "weird" because they are single and career minded in their 30's and 40's. I would even go so far to say that it's not about women being given different "roles" but rather women being forced into what I see as indentured slavery at times. I'm speaking specifically about raising kids, running a household, cooking, cleaning, kid's homework, clothing, shopping etc... There's nothing masculine or feminine in any of these tasks, but they are assigned a "gender" because that is what is expected of women. Professionally, I've known many men who chafe having to work under a female boss, who is labelled a "man-killer, ball-crusher" and so on.

[florduh]

The male/female roles established in the ancient writings made sense in that time and place. To cling to that model of society today is sheer madness.

[JadedAtheist]

The whole mindset of men being the bread winner and women staying home to look after the kids is ingrained throughout most societies. They may not be exactly the same but that general sentiment is pretty widespread. In western society though I think that this sentiment has lingered/hindered society due to Christianity's influence. As others have said, it's unfair on the women to work AND help around the house. That work should be split between the two.

[VacuumFlux]

Just to make the "species" conversation even more complicated, you also have to differentiate between sex and gender. Sex is the physical body, gender is how you think of yourself. The problem is that people who have the same sex may have widely divergent views about their gender.

 

Personally, my sex is female, but my gender is androgynous. I do not think my particular sex characteristics should matter outside of romantic or sexual relationships. Until I starting finding the particular subcultures that I fit into, I always got along better with males than females. Guys made sense. Girls talked about hair and makeup, squealed a lot, and kept badgering me about not joining in the chatter about which boys are hot. But then sometimes the guys I was trying to hang out with would look down on me for being a girl. Not intentionally, but they'd do stupid macho things like refusing to let me help pack up chairs because carrying things around is man's work. It's not like folding chairs are heavy enough that the sex-based strength differential matters!

 

When I say my gender is androgynous, I don't mean I'm a tomboy. That might have been easier; I'd have had a clear box to fit into. Instead, I love computers, cars, machines, math, cooking, knitting, and crochet. I know how to dress to use my body as a mating call, but most of the time I'd rather not go around advertising. I used to not even like the fact that my body could be sexual, and intentionally wore baggy shirts to hide my chest. My mom always wanted me to be more feminine, which seemed to mean caring about my looks more. She still sometimes complains that I refuse to carry a purse. I've had the thought a few times, when people start blathering about gender roles, that none of that shit describes me, therefore I must not be female. I have a hard time feeling a sense of "sisterhood" with other females based only on having the same sex organs.

 

I'm never quite sure how much to blame Christianity for all of this. In my upbringing, it certainly didn't help. But I have a good friend who's a non-Christian, was raised non-Christian, who constantly pisses me off by trying to treat me "like a girl". I've heard stories of South American where the issues isn't "Biblical Gender Roles", it's just plain machismo. So I suppose that if religion is to blame, it poisoned the whole culture long ago and now it's everyone's problem, not just a Christian problem. Christianity just makes it harder to fix by pretending that it's a feature, not a bug.

[Kyle]

I remember when I was a hardcore Southern Baptist. One morning in Sunday School our teacher said not to let children see the man performing the "woman's" task and vice versa. i.e. The man wasn't suppose to be cleaning the house, doing the dishes, etc. He went on to say that when children see men performing the female duties of the house (and vice versa) that could create gender confusion for the child later in life. Even back then I had a W..T..F.. moment

[MagickMonkey]

My wife isn't employed and does the vast majority of the household chores. Her attitude is quite similar to VacuumeFlux's, but not quite to the same extent. She has a hard time keeping a job because she wants to kill most of her female co-workers. She just can't stand the way most chicks act. At her last job, she told her boss that something had to be done or she was going to kick someone's ass. She's big enough to kick most chicks asses and even a lot of guy's asses. She can't kick my ass, though. I can out run her.

 

So anyway, she does most of the house work, but I have to admit that even when she was employed, she still did most of the housework. She simply cares more about it than I do. I did some house work, but I always make sure I take time to relax. Even when she does housework all day long, I sometimes have a hard time getting her to make time for her to relax. When she has it in her head that something needs to be done, she won't stop until it is. The way I see it, she's such a hard worker that I have to be a little lazy to balance things out a bit.

[Ouroboros]

I remember when I was a hardcore Southern Baptist. One morning in Sunday School our teacher said not to let children see the man performing the "woman's" task and vice versa. i.e. The man wasn't suppose to be cleaning the house, doing the dishes, etc. He went on to say that when children see men performing the female duties of the house (and vice versa) that could create gender confusion for the child later in life. Even back then I had a W..T..F.. moment

So there must be a lot of homosexuals in professional cleaning companies and restaurants. You have a lot of male cleaners, washers, cooks, laundromat workers... In all those places, they must be extremely confused about their genders.

 

No, wait, I think I get it. A task is only manly and not-gay if you get paid for it, preferably big bucks. If you have to do it at home and not get paid from an employer for doing it, then it's a female task and will make you gay.