Rant Of A Married Atheist Married To A Fundie

[Lawlbringer]

So I finished watching episode 2 of "God in America", it's a pretty good documentary that I recommend if you are interested in learning how religion has shaped America. It's pretty fair in the sense that it's not slanted towards a particular side whether faith based or not faith based. It reports the facts.

 

There was a section in the movie where I received an eye opening moment. As a Christian I was taught all the founding fathers were Christian etc.

 

America would be one of the first countries to experiment with not having a state sponsored religion. Freedom of religion. Then It hit me, that is one of the reasons I think America has been in a sense a great melting pot for all people and being a beacon of freedom for all. Look at countries that were or currently propose a state sponsored religion.

 

If the founding fathers, in their desire to create a union where "all men are created equal", decided not to incorporate "freedom of religion" I do not think we would be the country we are now. Of course Christians are kicking and screaming that this country is damned because we turned our backs on God.

 

A lot of Christians would have people believe that this country was founded as a Christian nation. Do not get me wrong, I know that the Puritans came here to escape England and their control over them. But with that said, the founding fathers had knowledge that America would become another Monarchy if a state sponsored religion was endorsed. People should have the freedom to practice their religion as they chose.

 

Christians believe because they are the majority that somehow enables them to circumvent the very laws that are in place to protect religion. When Christians claim they want to turn America back to God they are totally clueless about how and why our republic is set up the way it is. We cease being a free nation once a majority gets to incorporate their beliefs on the masses.

 

So I was sharing what I was learning with my wife. She looked up at me and said "but the founding fathers were Christian". No honey, most were Deist. She mention that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian. No honey, he was a deist. Do you know what the "Jefferson Bible" is? She looks at me perplexed responding no. I explain what Jefferson did to the bible. She replied, is that real? Yes honey, here take a look, it is on sale on Amazon. I could tell she was getting frustrated when I told her what "Jefferson" had done to the bible. With a agitated voice she says, well I have seen miracles.....goes back to watching "Biggest Loser".

 

That is what I am trying to explain to her. I have strived to study why I believe the way I do. You on the other hand spew incorrect truths without the slightest bit of understanding why you think that way. It's just frustrating living with a fundie sometimes.

[Freedom from Guilt]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately as I've been studying the American Revolution. What I am amazed by is not only were the majority of our founding fathers NOT christian, they were inspired (especially Thomas Jefferson) by humanist principles. It's frustrating that most American's do not know this and that others willfully believe lies about the founding fathers.

 

Insert my own mini rant: As an agnostic, married to a Fundie, I fully sympathize with your feelings of frustration. I went to church with my husband and the pastor twisted a quote by Ghandi to fit his agenda. It was disgusting. And when my husband and I talked about it later, he accused me of calling him a robot because he believed the Pastor was being truthful and Ghandi COULD have said that. So I had two beefs with that. 1.The Pastor twisted Ghandi's words to fulfill his agenda 2. My husband believes him because he is the pastor and would not even consider doing the research to prove or disprove him. End Rant.

 

freedom

 

 

 

[OpheliaGinger]

Go to church, loose intelligence points; that's were most of this disinformation is coming from.

[BrotherJosh]

One of my most favorite people of all time, Thomas Paine, was ardently anti-Christian/Religion. Without him, there wouldn't have been much of an America as we see it today. That always gets me when they say this country was founded on "Christian Principles". Really, by who??

 

I understand your feelings though, they have a world view they are comfortable living in so they make general assumptions about it such as the Founding Fathers etc... It comes down to the fact that you are investigating what you believe and how you see the world. She isn't. Nor does she probably care to investigate either, because it takes a certain amount of risk and personal honesty to truly investigate one's beliefs and world-views.

[chosendarkness]

When I first learned in college that our government was not founded by Christians it was very eye-opening. It allowed some sensibility and rationality to slip into my brainwashed mind. It sounds like that's what happened to your wife. You can't change someone, but things like that will definitely stir around in their brain and may one day result in a turn-around. I don't think arguing or trying to convince them will work to well though.

 

One thing that can throw them for a loop is to admit that you could be wrong, that there might be a god. A showing of rationality which directly opposes their irrational, bigoted mindset will confuse and frustrate them.

[MagickMonkey]

My husband believes him because he is the pastor and would not even consider doing the research to prove or disprove him.

 

He's scared you're right.

[Freedom from Guilt]

My husband believes him because he is the pastor and would not even consider doing the research to prove or disprove him.

 

He's scared you're right.

 

Probably. He just hates it when I rock his very comfortable, very stable, very boring boat. And, of course, I am right. I'm always right!

[Lawlbringer]

Well as of tonight our marriage is over. I knew it would lead to this. I tried to be a Christain for the sake of our marriage. I tried to be the spiritual leader. I tried.

 

I am tired. I am burnt out.

 

I only hope I can be an example for my children one day. The indoctrination of my children have begun and I am partially to blame. Is it too late? What a mess.

[foolish girl]

Well as of tonight our marriage is over. I knew it would lead to this. I tried to be a Christain for the sake of our marriage. I tried to be the spiritual leader. I tried.

 

I am tired. I am burnt out.

 

I only hope I can be an example for my children one day. The indoctrination of my children have begun and I am partially to blame. Is it too late? What a mess.

 

It is not too late Lawl.

 

As my friends here have reassured me, with a balanced upbringing, being in church can actually innoculate your children against religion.

 

I have to believe that is is true.

 

Keep us posted. I'm sorry it sucks. I know how hard it must be to get through. You are braver than I.

[buffettphan]

Well as of tonight our marriage is over. I knew it would lead to this. I tried to be a Christain for the sake of our marriage. I tried to be the spiritual leader. I tried.

 

I am tired. I am burnt out.

 

I only hope I can be an example for my children one day. The indoctrination of my children have begun and I am partially to blame. Is it too late? What a mess.

 

I'm so sorry for all the pain you're going through. As far as your children, NO -- it's definitely not too late. You and all of us on this website are evidence of that. They actually have a bit of an advantage over many ex-c'ers who as kids were surrounded by nothing but christians -- they have you ((hugs))

[MagickMonkey]

Well as of tonight our marriage is over. I knew it would lead to this. I tried to be a Christain for the sake of our marriage. I tried to be the spiritual leader. I tried.

 

I am tired. I am burnt out.

 

I only hope I can be an example for my children one day. The indoctrination of my children have begun and I am partially to blame. Is it too late? What a mess.

 

I wouldn't be hard on your self for your part in their indoctrination. Parents can only do what they can with the knowledge they have. You're simply better informed now.

[AKR]

Well as of tonight our marriage is over. I knew it would lead to this. I tried to be a Christain for the sake of our marriage. I tried to be the spiritual leader. I tried.

 

I am tired. I am burnt out.

 

I only hope I can be an example for my children one day. The indoctrination of my children have begun and I am partially to blame. Is it too late? What a mess.

 

 

I'm sorry about your marriage. I think most of us have been where you are to some extent. I don't know how old your kids are or what kind of personalities they have, but it's never too late to be honest about religion.

[Lawlbringer]

Thanks guys and gals. I started contributing to the site again:)

 

Anyways, we got into a heated debate on Sat. I do not know why I even bother trying to explain in my words how I do not believe.

 

At one point in the conversation she said that due to my lack of theological training I couldn't be right. She mentioned that "how can theologians who spend a lifetime studying the Bible be wrong". Geez seriously? She explained to me that I should learn Greek and Hebrew to understand the Bible. Really? Why didnt an all knowing God not foresee this? Do I really need to be a theologian and versed in Greek and Hebrew to understand. Seriously, no. The arguments she was coming up in countering me with were ridiculous.

 

Then came the argument about what motivation do I have to do good? What is my purpose in life. Well hell I am in the Marine Corps and at even given day I may be in a 3rd world country on a deployment. I have seen real oppression, poverty, hate. I am very appreciative of the great life we have in America and in other countries that are evolving to this day. I do not need a book for me to be a "moral" person. Yeah I know Christians do a lot in regards to missions and whatnot but there are strings attached. I look at humanist organizations with much more respect that do good without a religious motivation. Why would these evil humanist ever try to help the needy in some 3rd world country?

 

I do not know why I even try to explain. It's like talking to a wall.

 

My children are 3 and 6, both have birthdays coming up in spring. My son got saved while in Charlotte while we were separated. Its funny me and my son was watching some discovery channel and I asked him how dinosaurs became extinct. He looks at me and says "didn't a meteor come out of the sky or something". I was like, what, where did you here that at? I was waiting for him to say noahs flood something. He did not remember but I was non the less impressed. Very smart boy. Wife no longer doing homeschool so I hope he gets a unbiased education.

[MagickMonkey]

Thanks guys and gals. I started contributing to the site again:)

 

Anyways, we got into a heated debate on Sat. I do not know why I even bother trying to explain in my words how I do not believe.

 

At one point in the conversation she said that due to my lack of theological training I couldn't be right. She mentioned that "how can theologians who spend a lifetime studying the Bible be wrong". Geez seriously? She explained to me that I should learn Greek and Hebrew to understand the Bible. Really? Why didnt an all knowing God not foresee this? Do I really need to be a theologian and versed in Greek and Hebrew to understand. Seriously, no. The arguments she was coming up in countering me with were ridiculous.

 

 

It seems that this kind of study leads many to deconversion.

 

 

Then came the argument about what motivation do I have to do good? What is my purpose in life. Well hell I am in the Marine Corps and at even given day I may be in a 3rd world country on a deployment. I have seen real oppression, poverty, hate. I am very appreciative of the great life we have in America and in other countries that are evolving to this day. I do not need a book for me to be a "moral" person. Yeah I know Christians do a lot in regards to missions and whatnot but there are strings attached. I look at humanist organizations with much more respect that do good without a religious motivation. Why would these evil humanist ever try to help the needy in some 3rd world country?

 

 

One thing worth mentioning is that whether or not gods existence might have some hypothetical bearing on what is moral and whether or not a non-christian can be moral, your morality or lack thereof is actually quite irrelevant to discussing his/her/its existence. She's discussing a possible consequence of his non-existence, but not whether or not he actually exists. Its a diversion for those who are desperately trying and failing to make good arguments.

 

 

I do not know why I even try to explain. It's like talking to a wall.

 

 

I've been in that situation before with my ex-wife. Different subject matter with our arguments, but it was very frustrating.

[Leinad89]

I know this is not really on the topic, but it's to respond to the often-said claim by fundie Americans about turning-back-on-god leading to a screwed up country.

 

As a Norwegian who hasn't spent much more than a year in the US altogether, I'd say the problem with the country is the American Dream and the segregation that arises out of this extremely competitive view on life and definition of success. They need to look at us Scandinavians. We're the least religious countries in the world, pretty much, yet we're at the top of pops when it comes to development and living-standards.

[Lawlbringer]

No matter what God will always be first in her relationship with me. In a sense that feels awkward. I would rather it be the other way around. I know I can't ask that of her.

 

After we started talking about separating my heart felt heavy. Regardless of what happens she is the mother of my children and for the most part we did have some good times. She seemed pretty happy about the whole thing. Of course she has faith so I guess it can help covering up any true feelings she may have about us separating.

 

She is very pretty and I know she will have no problem finding another man one day. Hell, she got plenty of training in our marriage. It pains me to think that she will end up with another fundie and my children will be surrounded by that shit. As mentioned though that may not be a bad thing in regards to my children being indoctrinated.

 

Think I just need to schedule an appointment with a counselor to help sort through all of this.

[Lawlbringer]

leinad89, I agree. There is actually a website that tracks statisctis in regards to percentage of religious beliefs and that countries crime rates etc. All of the more secular/ atheist countries were always top in the charts. It's pretty eye opening for those to claim that in order to have a moral society it must be based upon a belief in a particular religion.

 

I am going to search for that site now.

[stryper]

I know I said it on another post of yours Lawlbringer, but I can't stress enough the need to fight for your kids.

 

They don't have to end up with her. While it would be difficult, you can raise them. Since, my assumption is she has no income of her own, then an economic arguement could hold alot of weight.

[freespirit]

Hey Lawbringer,

 

Does your wife want out or do you? I think you should start quoting scripture to her. 1 Corinthians 7

 

¹⁰ To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. ¹¹ But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

 

¹² To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. ¹³ And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. ¹⁴ For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

 

¹⁵ But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. ¹⁶ How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

 

Basically, as a Bible believer, your wife is bound to live with you or disobey the Bible, so long as you want to. I think you should both stop trying to convert each other and live with each other. I think you should attend church to appease her but gently tell her you do not believe. Refuse to argue. She has no right to force you to believe your way nor you, her way. She should believe that you are being "sanctified" through her belief. You must not use the Bible as a weapon against her, but she is disobeying the Bible to leave you (unless you are being abusive or something). AND if she divorces you, unless you have been messing around, she must not remarry.

 

 

[MagickMonkey]

I know I said it on another post of yours Lawlbringer, but I can't stress enough the need to fight for your kids.

 

They don't have to end up with her. While it would be difficult, you can raise them. Since, my assumption is she has no income of her own, then an economic arguement could hold alot of weight.

 

I suggest not asking for any more or any less than joint custody. If you try to gain full custody, she might end up hating you for it, and you'll likely not be able to succeed. In divorces, sexism works against men. If you try and fail and she hates you for trying to take her kids away from her (the only way she'll see it), then she my try to turn the kids against you. Trust me, you don't want her trying to do that.

[stryper]

I know I said it on another post of yours Lawlbringer, but I can't stress enough the need to fight for your kids.

 

They don't have to end up with her. While it would be difficult, you can raise them. Since, my assumption is she has no income of her own, then an economic arguement could hold alot of weight.

 

I suggest not asking for any more or any less than joint custody. If you try to gain full custody, she might end up hating you for it, and you'll likely not be able to succeed. In divorces, sexism works against men. If you try and fail and she hates you for trying to take her kids away from her (the only way she'll see it), then she my try to turn the kids against you. Trust me, you don't want her trying to do that.

 

 

Good Point monkey....

 

Guess I was just trying to tell a Marine to fight as hard for his kids as he does for his country.

[Lawlbringer]

I understand Freespirit where you are coming from. I am not trying to convert her. I have another thread on "testimonies of former Christians" that has post from Oct 2010.

 

Basically she had cheated on me about 4 times starting very early in our marriage. Her last emotional affair, before I found out, she asked to separate. I caught her talking to another married man with kids. I found Jesus and we came back together after a month or so.

 

Back in Oct I told her I was struggling with my faith after I refused to go to a mens meeting one Saturday. She separated for 3 months. I found Jeaus again and she came back.

 

So now I am fearful of the future with her. She knows where I stand now but I do not feel like we are on the same page. She wants to tithe %10 of her income (I am a big saver/ investor but she thinks since this life is meaningless what is the point, do not store riches her on earth etc), she is at church 3 times a week at least (wed, Fri night, Sun morning). My son doesn't want to go to church but my wife forces him to go. I feel bad because I want to say don't force him but then she will give me the cold shoulder. I know I am pathetic for even trying after being cheated on so many times. Think I am codependent coupled with some self esteem issues along with the drama that comes with deconversion.

 

I don't want to convert her...it's not like I am going around to 3 meetings a week at an atheist meet up, making my kids believe like me. I am not donating 10% of my income to the "Richard Dawkins" foundation. I am not dropping hints that she is going to hell or sly comments meant to belittle my choice of belief. I jump in the car and there is Christian music playing. I turn it. I put my kids to bed and there is "children bible songs" ready to be played. I am not trying to convert her. I am just fighting to be treated like a human. One way or another I am surrounded by Christian dogma when I get home. It gets tiring.

 

She says that those times I got saved where genuine and that the devil saw how I could become a great man of God so he got to me. Mmmm ok. I am rebelling against God.

 

I would do joint custody. I dont want it to be ugly. I would like to be able to get along with her if the "D" happens. In all honestly, with my job and tempo it would be so hard having full custody. Washington is cutting our budget/ manpower but they expect us to maintain the same tempo of operations.

 

Gonna see a counselor. Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate it.

[freespirit]

I understand Freespirit where you are coming from. I am not trying to convert her. I have another thread on "testimonies of former Christians" that has post from Oct 2010.

 

Basically she had cheated on me about 4 times starting very early in our marriage. Her last emotional affair, before I found out, she asked to separate. I caught her talking to another married man with kids. I found Jesus and we came back together after a month or so.

 

Back in Oct I told her I was struggling with my faith after I refused to go to a mens meeting one Saturday. She separated for 3 months. I found Jeaus again and she came back.

 

So now I am fearful of the future with her. She knows where I stand now but I do not feel like we are on the same page. She wants to tithe %10 of her income (I am a big saver/ investor but she thinks since this life is meaningless what is the point, do not store riches her on earth etc), she is at church 3 times a week at least (wed, Fri night, Sun morning). My son doesn't want to go to church but my wife forces him to go. I feel bad because I want to say don't force him but then she will give me the cold shoulder. I know I am pathetic for even trying after being cheated on so many times. Think I am codependent coupled with some self esteem issues along with the drama that comes with deconversion.

 

I don't want to convert her...it's not like I am going around to 3 meetings a week at an atheist meet up, making my kids believe like me. I am not donating 10% of my income to the "Richard Dawkins" foundation. I am not dropping hints that she is going to hell or sly comments meant to belittle my choice of belief. I jump in the car and there is Christian music playing. I turn it. I put my kids to bed and there is "children bible songs" ready to be played. I am not trying to convert her. I am just fighting to be treated like a human. One way or another I am surrounded by Christian dogma when I get home. It gets tiring.

 

She says that those times I got saved where genuine and that the devil saw how I could become a great man of God so he got to me. Mmmm ok. I am rebelling against God.

 

I would do joint custody. I dont want it to be ugly. I would like to be able to get along with her if the "D" happens. In all honestly, with my job and tempo it would be so hard having full custody. Washington is cutting our budget/ manpower but they expect us to maintain the same tempo of operations.

 

Gonna see a counselor. Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate it.

 

 

Not sure what you mean by "emotional affair". Have all her affairs been emotional? If so, I don't personally see that as being unfaithful in the same way as if she is sleeping around. Is it a problem? Yes. Does she admit it's a problem? It sounds like she needs emotional support and friends. If she wants to tithe 10% of her income, it's her income. Invest yours your way and she her way. Is her fundamentalism a problem? Yep. Sure is. And she needs to stop rating your right to be her husband based on whether you live up to her beliefs. You don't have to. But, I wonder how it would be if you just stopped trying to appease her religiously and yet just looked her in the eye and told her you love her despite your differences and tell her you want it to work and you will do what you have to to make it work (short of allowing her to control your mind. Of course, if she has been sleeping around, I wouldn't blame you for seriously considering getting out.) If she is a true Christian, she is backed in a corner. You will be acting like more of a Christian than she is. I think that is the one and only way to help a fundie. Love them out of it and let them see love outside the church. If you are secure in your beliefs, this will project from you. A person who is secure in their beliefs, in my opinion, does not try to sway someone to their way and does not try to change them. They could even attend church along with and count ceiling tiles while the preacher drones on....not because they believe.....but because it is important to their spouse. You see what I mean? Bottom line is you need to figure out how important your marriage is to you. If you want to keep it, you can make it work as long as she agrees to keep you around.

 

 

[Vomit Comet]

leinad89, I agree. There is actually a website that tracks statisctis in regards to percentage of religious beliefs and that countries crime rates etc. All of the more secular/ atheist countries were always top in the charts. It's pretty eye opening for those to claim that in order to have a moral society it must be based upon a belief in a particular religion.

 

I am going to search for that site now.

 

Correlation isn't causation. Poorer, less educated people are more likely to be religious. The question is, how more or less likely are religious poor people to commit crimes than non-religious poor people? For not all poor people commit crimes. If it could be demonstrated that poor people who are religious commit less crimes, the fundies still have something to crow about.

 

As for poverty in this country, I'll share an anecdote. One time in Italy I saw this police calendar put out by the Carabinieri (the iconic Italian cops you see in movies). It was this weird fanciful nationalist stuff, like 'Mussolini Lite.' For example, that month it was a young Carabinieri stud in full parade get-up, courting 'Italia' (hot chick in a glittery green-white-and-red ballgown) at some dress ball inside what looked like a Roman palace. I told my girlfriend, who's from Italy, that in America the police department calendars are much more... prosaic. You know, the usual shit, where they're showing off their vehicles and helicopters and shit.

 

"Oh", she said, "the Polizia calendars are like that." The Polizia are the other national police force in Italy, and aren't as flashy and prominent as the Carabinieri.

 

"Yeah, and then on December it'll show them passing out Christmas presents to poor kids."

 

"Why on earth would cops bother to do that?" she asked me.

 

"Uh, because, like... the kids are too poor to have presents?"

 

"My god!" she exclaimed. "What kind of poverty do you have in America!?"

 

"You sure it's not just some kind of cultural difference?" I asked her.

 

"I can't imagine what" she answered.

[Sybaris]

Not sure what you mean by "emotional affair". Have all her affairs been emotional? If so, I don't personally see that as being unfaithful in the same way as if she is sleeping around.

 

An emotional affair is another form of infidelity that consists of someone being emotionally intimate with someone other than their spouse. Physical affairs may or may not include intimate emotion. Some feel emotional affairs are more damaging to trust in the realtionship due to the very nature of it being non-physical.