Another Experience With Suffering

[Franciscan Monkey]

Thanks for your comment, Franciscan Monkey. I asked my daughter if she would be helping to alleviate suffering if she didn’t believe in God and she said NO - she wouldn’t want to see the suffering. She believes God empowers her to do what she wouldn’t do on her own. If there were no God she believes she would only do what would benefit her.- loving others when there is no chance of personal gain is “unreasonable“ (against reason).

 

And yet many atheists do love others when there is no chance of personal gain. I believe your daughter actually would still do these things even without a belief in God, despite what she says, but I could be wrong. If a belief in God is what is necessary for her to act compassionately, then I guess that is fine. That would indicate to me that she is selfish, but if the end result is the same, then belief in God is a useful crutch for her. It is interesting to note that even chimpanzees will act altruistically.

 

I think many people are very comfortable closing their eyes to suffering. So, her belief in God actually takes her to a place of less comfort.

 

Too true that many close their eyes to suffering. Believers and non-believers would fall into this category. But many do not close their eyes to suffering, believers and non-believers alike.

 

Most (Christians, many other religions, atheists, etc.) would probably agree with the “concept” that people should help others (especially those who are hungry, sick, etc.). So … why are people still starving to death? Not tended to when sick? Not properly clothed? Why do so many not do what they all agree should be done?

 

Many people do not have the means to do so.

 

Many people do not actually care and are selfish.

 

Prayers are obviously going unanswered.

 

The power of God through believers is not enough, as a non-existent god is powerless.

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

[walker]

When I was praying, I was yelling at God for not doing anything, when He was trying to do something. He was trying to mold me into a person He could use to bring His presence into a dying world, and all I was doing was fighting Him because He wasn't addressing suffering the way I wanted Him to.

This is where she decided she had done something wrong. It always happens with Christians, until they break out of the "I'm a corrupt sinner and there must be something wrong with me" idea. This is where she surrendered and basically gave up her mind.

So everyone knows, I’m trying to talk through much of what is posted with my daughter (since she is the one who went through the experience). Do feel free to email her if you want. But of course, when we talk here we can all see what’s being said.

 

Anyway - about the “corrupt sinner” mentality - that’s something that exists before relationship with God. That’s not who we are in relationship with God. Those walking with God are freed from that identity - freed to think of others, not self. Freed to solve the problem - not focus on self. My daughter wasn’t thinking of her sin but about God (what she had misunderstood). She pursued God and found deeper understanding, meaning, and relationship. Then she had the strength to go back to the suffering to do what she could.

[Galien]

I am a very similar kind of person to your daughter and have had similar dificulties with depressionover the sorry state fo the world and the self interest of individuals. But I am 50. I flailed about in the church for 36 years of my life listening to tired explanation after tired explanation of this god and his so called attributes. After too many years watching good people die from cancer, suicide from depression, lie to themeselves and each other until they became robots, I'd had enough. I got to a point in my life where I could no longer make excuses for god or people. For a person consumed with obsession for honesty, I finally realised that my whole life was based on one big lie.

 

I wanted to believe the best of every person as the bible instructed me to, but its stupid because people suck. I want churches to be full of people who really give a shit about eachother, not this fake sunday smile that disppears the minute you refuse to conform or you actually need something from them. I have learned that decent humble chirstian would be decent and humble anyway as part of who they are hardwired to be, and christians who were assholes to begin with usually stay that way. They just find a new arena to practice their assholery, which usually involves being in charge of something.

 

Trust me walker I wanted god to be true more than anyone, I really thought I had a close relationship with god for years and years. I was just talking to myself. This world is a shithole and to me god was the only pure and true thing left in it. I was wrong. There is nothing pure and true left but the honest genuine deep connection we feel for each other.

[Deva]

Anyway - about the “corrupt sinner” mentality - that’s something that exists before relationship with God. That’s not who we are in relationship with God. Those walking with God are freed from that identity - freed to think of others, not self. Freed to solve the problem - not focus on self. My daughter wasn’t thinking of her sin but about God (what she had misunderstood). She pursued God and found deeper understanding, meaning, and relationship. Then she had the strength to go back to the suffering to do what she could.

 

While I cannot presume to think that I know what another person is thinking, especially since I do not know said person, IMO the entire God/human relationship in Christianity is based upon the corrupt sinner mentality. That is the entire basis of it.

[walker]

I never thought that maybe God didn't exist.

That is where she went wrong right there, she went to hate, instead of questioning existence. I never went to hate, I immediately went to put it in scientific terms, question the hypothesis.

 

On another point entirely, I wonder, God if you really do exist why did you pick the lousiest intercessor you possibly could to stop people from suffering.

Lousiest intercessor?

He picked us to help us. If the christian stuff is true, that would be the lousiest choice, I used the word intercessor, to say we are supposedly working on gods behalf.

O-K, Valk - I see what you’re saying now. From the OP:

 

I'm reminded of a time before I went to Africa when I was working with a woman who was bitter and hurting. I prayed that God would touch her, show her His incredible love for her. I felt Him telling me, “I can't touch her. She won't let me. But she's letting you touch her, so I'll have to touch her through you.” When I saw people bringing suffering on themselves or others, of course God was trying to speak to them. But He doesn't force people to listen to Him, and they often don't of their own choice. But there's a chance they'll listen to people, so God needs people who will let Him speak through them.

 

We humans have physical bodies and senses. We need to be touched and hugged. We share experiences and walk in each other’s shoes. Our arms carry the sick and pull the shipwrecked out of the water. Though we’re not perfect, there’s nothing like a smile, a hug, a shoulder to lean on when we’re hurt. Adam knew God, but he needed Eve to be completed in relationship. It can be hard for us to identify with God and feel comfortable - the people of Israel preferred that Moses go to God for them. This is much of why Jesus came - God came and lived among us (Emmanuel). The people could walk with Jesus and relate to Him, to God.

[walker]

I never thought that maybe God didn't exist.

That is where she went wrong right there, she went to hate, instead of questioning existence. I never went to hate, I immediately went to put it in scientific terms, question the hypothesis.

In reply my daughter wrote:

 

“This is what I would say to the guy who said I shouldn't have hated God, but questioned His existence. I know now why I didn't question. When I went to Africa, I saw very clearly the depth of the depravity and corruption of man. But I also saw that, for how messed-up I thought American culture was, America was nothing like this. As a culture (I'm not speaking about individuals but about general thought) we have much more respect for human life. We understand that the weak and the broken have value, even if we don't want to be personally involved in their care. And though it's fading fast, we still have a faint sense of honor. In Africa I saw a culture that had had nothing to do with God for centuries, and I saw the result. It made me realize how much God was still a part of our culture and how grateful I was for that. Seeing the incredible lack of the presence of God where I was made me see all the more clearly the presence of God elsewhere

 

“I'm not a racist, so I can't believe that my race is more highly evolved or in some other way superior to the African culture. So there's only one way to account for the difference between my culture and theirs - the influence of a very existent God.”

[walker]

What is the point of the story, walker,

suffering exists, horrible suffering, but doesn't prove or disprove any gods exists, all it proves is that man is a nasty little animal who has little regard to his fellow man (man as in human kind.)

 

did you daughter see the physical manifestation of god? No? how surprizing. Did some god come down from where ever they sit and laugh at human suffering and say, sorry sugar you aren't doing it my way so tough shit? I aint going to answer your feeble prayers and save any body from suffering, cause you ain't doing it MY way.

 

Get real suffering exists, god does not

If suffering proves that man is “a nasty little animal who has little regard to his fellow man (man as in human kind.)” then how do we explain the good man does? How can a “nasty little animal” do anything good?

 

A lack of a physical manifestation of God doesn’t prove God does not exist. God doesn’t insist on His way because of some self-centered need - it’s just that other ways don’t work. My daughter’s way didn’t work (all her ideas fell flat). The people who supplied the orphanage - their way wasn’t working. And it was common knowledge that supplies sent through the postal system often didn’t reach their destination - that way didn’t work either. What did her college advise? They told her not to care so much - that different cultures are different and we have to respect differences.”

 

Suffering does exist, whether we believe God exists or not. Without God we’re “nasty little animals”. With God we can help.

[walker]

thank you walker for your daughter's story.

 

someone see the half glass of water, is it half empty or half full? I could not care less anymore.

 

It is just half glass of water, i can fill it up or offer it to a thirsty person. I leave the half full/empty argument for philosophers and whatnots.

 

Your daughter is a nice person.

 

i would have guess your purpose to write the sufferings in here for a different perspective, as many in exC see suffering a proof of god's non-existence but your daughter's experience is an ATTEMPT to show otherwise.

 

thank you for your daughter making the world a better place albeit for a "WRONG" reason.

Thanks, Pratt.

[walker]

Most (Christians, many other religions, atheists, etc.) would probably agree with the “concept” that people should help others (especially those who are hungry, sick, etc.). So … why are people still starving to death? Not tended to when sick? Not properly clothed? Why do so many not do what they all agree should be done?

Been watching this topic, and must applaud your daughter for the desire to make the world a better place. The homeless people that I see often seem to have mental illnesses. But in other countries, their governments are the biggest problem. As long as the leaders and the military are taken care of, the people's suffering is the last thing on their mind.

Thanks, Eugene. I think studies have shown that most homeless people are schizophrenic (often paranoid and afraid of help and shelters). My spouse does some work with a homeless shelter (that also teaches skills, etc.) - many of them are fighting addictions that ruined their lives. Yes, corrupt governmental leadership often is the issue - their people can’t be helped by other countries because donated supplies go to the rich and powerful instead of the poor. Do you have any ideas for solutions to these types of dilemmas?

[Guest I Love Dog]

 

Most (Christians, many other religions, atheists, etc.) would probably agree with the “concept” that people should help others (especially those who are hungry, sick, etc.). So … why are people still starving to death? Not tended to when sick? Not properly clothed? Why do so many not do what they all agree should be done?

 

There are millions of people helping those who suffer. It's just that they don't all need god to help them to do it or don't want their story written up as a proselytizing exercise on an Ex Christian site.

 

Most people keep private how they help and support others, but I will tell you that my daughters, both atheists, are incredibly philanthropic, helping in so many ways to alleviate people's misery and suffering. They don't need an invisible entity to prompt them. They do it out of love for humanity. That is their driving force for what they do.

 

If your daughter needs god to drive her in what she does to help others, then the problem arises as to what she'd do if she stopped believing in god? Would she stop helping others? No, of course she wouldn't. Doesn't that make her god a bit redundant? A god that is sadly missing in action when it comes to help alleviate suffering of "his children".

 

If your god was a good communicator then he'd surely command the closing of those ridiculously idiotic wastes of space, money and time called churches, command the selling of them , with the proceeds distributed to help those in need.

 

I mosquito net in Africa costs around $10 and they save lives like nothing else does. $10 to save one life. How many lives could the Catholic Church alone save if they liquidated their assets, their Churches, their works of art and their real estate.

 

Your god is totally ineffectual when it comes to the protection of the human race. We're just lucky we have humans who care about others.

[par4dcourse]

“I'm not a racist, so I can't believe that my race is more highly evolved or in some other way superior to the African culture. So there's only one way to account for the difference between my culture and theirs - the influence of a very existent God.”

 

That is so blatantly racist I'm coming unglued just reading it. Children are starving to death and genocide carried out because they're not christian? You have a superior god?

 

I am truly thankful I am no longer one of you.

[walker]

I asked my daughter if she would be helping to alleviate suffering if she didn’t believe in God and she said NO - she wouldn’t want to see the suffering. She believes God empowers her to do what she wouldn’t do on her own. If there were no God she believes she would only do what would benefit her.- loving others when there is no chance of personal gain is “unreasonable“ (against reason).

 

I think many people are very comfortable closing their eyes to suffering. So, her belief in God actually takes her to a place of less comfort.

 

Most (Christians, many other religions, atheists, etc.) would probably agree with the “concept” that people should help others (especially those who are hungry, sick, etc.). So … why are people still starving to death? Not tended to when sick? Not properly clothed? Why do so many not do what they all agree should be done?

As for your statement asking why so many people do not do what they all agree should be done, I would turn the question around. With two to three billion christians in the world all claiming to be moved by god to help the poor, why are there still starving people in the world? They, too, do not do what should be done. They use money they gather to build these giant monuments to themselves they call churches, some holding thousands of people in splendor. Sure some, very few, send missionaries, but what are they really doing? Their number one goal is to convert, not to feed. They teach some in Africa to enact laws making homosexual practices subject to imprisonment or even the death penalty. And their religion teaches some to beat, abandon, torture, and kill children because they are supposedly witches. People with this god of love who tells them to feed the poor are hateful, judgmental, and make life for some, like homosexuals and even many women, a living hell. They teach the doctrine of hell which scares children and scars many for life with a fear they cannot control or get over. It teaches that the world is about to end and gloats over those who will be supposedly "left behind" to suffer the torments poured out by this supposedly loving god who is supposedly telling people to feed the poor. Phew on Christianity and its cursed teachings.

I asked the question of all people - Christians included. As far as the general Christian population … don’t get me started. The general state of the American Christian Church is an immature, uneducated, weak, often foolish, mess. I won’t say I’ve seen it all, but I’ve seen a lot. Why would an American Christian attending a “prosperity theology” church think about anything other than getting rich and famous themselves? Then there are those who are so busy finding a demon under every bush that they miss the real demons (hunger, sickness, poverty). But hey - they’re working on finding the exact way to pronounce YHWH because there’s “power in the Name”! How about those who are “saved by grace” but busy with performing a zillion “necessary” church works so they can get into heaven? (What?) And then there are those who got baptized, got their admission ticket, and can now put their feet up and “live like hell” and die and go to heaven? (Greasy grace - slide right into heaven.) To top it all off, we have people like Fred Phelps can only think about telling a certain group that they’re going to hell.

 

(And as far as “converting people” - only God can do that. So Christians can put away their belts full of “notches“.)

 

Sure, there are a few mature, educated, wise, strong Christians who are really bringing life and change to their big or small world … but they’re easy to miss. They’re a remnant. In the meantime, we’ve got all the others who often make more work for those maturely working. I’m with you, OF. I reject all this too. (And they all probably judge me to be worthy of hell!)

 

I thought homosexual death penalties were Islamic.

 

We’ll see who gets “left behind”, right? Seriously, the pre-tribulation rapture is more of the prosperity theology thing - “Jesus suffered and died so we’ll never have to.” Have these people read what Jesus said about sufferings and persecutions? Jesus didn’t tell His followers they’d never suffer

 

So, I’ve probably said more than enough. Phew on false Christianity.

[Kathlene]

I asked my daughter if she would be helping to alleviate suffering if she didn’t believe in God and she said NO - she wouldn’t want to see the suffering. She believes God empowers her to do what she wouldn’t do on her own. If there were no God she believes she would only do what would benefit her.- loving others when there is no chance of personal gain is “unreasonable“ (against reason).

 

I think many people are very comfortable closing their eyes to suffering. So, her belief in God actually takes her to a place of less comfort.

 

Most (Christians, many other religions, atheists, etc.) would probably agree with the “concept” that people should help others (especially those who are hungry, sick, etc.). So … why are people still starving to death? Not tended to when sick? Not properly clothed? Why do so many not do what they all agree should be done?

As for your statement asking why so many people do not do what they all agree should be done, I would turn the question around. With two to three billion christians in the world all claiming to be moved by god to help the poor, why are there still starving people in the world? They, too, do not do what should be done. They use money they gather to build these giant monuments to themselves they call churches, some holding thousands of people in splendor. Sure some, very few, send missionaries, but what are they really doing? Their number one goal is to convert, not to feed. They teach some in Africa to enact laws making homosexual practices subject to imprisonment or even the death penalty. And their religion teaches some to beat, abandon, torture, and kill children because they are supposedly witches. People with this god of love who tells them to feed the poor are hateful, judgmental, and make life for some, like homosexuals and even many women, a living hell. They teach the doctrine of hell which scares children and scars many for life with a fear they cannot control or get over. It teaches that the world is about to end and gloats over those who will be supposedly "left behind" to suffer the torments poured out by this supposedly loving god who is supposedly telling people to feed the poor. Phew on Christianity and its cursed teachings.

I asked the question of all people - Christians included. As far as the general Christian population … don’t get me started. The general state of the American Christian Church is an immature, uneducated, weak, often foolish, mess. I won’t say I’ve seen it all, but I’ve seen a lot. Why would an American Christian attending a “prosperity theology” church think about anything other than getting rich and famous themselves? Then there are those who are so busy finding a demon under every bush that they miss the real demons (hunger, sickness, poverty). But hey - they’re working on finding the exact way to pronounce YHWH because there’s “power in the Name”! How about those who are “saved by grace” but busy with performing a zillion “necessary” church works so they can get into heaven? (What?) And then there are those who got baptized, got their admission ticket, and can now put their feet up and “live like hell” and die and go to heaven? (Greasy grace - slide right into heaven.) To top it all off, we have people like Fred Phelps can only think about telling a certain group that they’re going to hell.

 

(And as far as “converting people” - only God can do that. So Christians can put away their belts full of “notches“.)

 

Sure, there are a few mature, educated, wise, strong Christians who are really bringing life and change to their big or small world … but they’re easy to miss. They’re a remnant. In the meantime, we’ve got all the others who often make more work for those maturely working. I’m with you, OF. I reject all this too. (And they all probably judge me to be worthy of hell!)

 

I thought homosexual death penalties were Islamic.

 

We’ll see who gets “left behind”, right? Seriously, the pre-tribulation rapture is more of the prosperity theology thing - “Jesus suffered and died so we’ll never have to.” Have these people read what Jesus said about sufferings and persecutions? Jesus didn’t tell His followers they’d never suffer

 

So, I’ve probably said more than enough. Phew on false Christianity.

 

 

oh and there it is again those magic words...false christianity

[allmyfriendsaretheistlol]

I didn't read it. Would anyone care to tell me if it is dripping with emotion?

 

 

LOL

[Franciscan Monkey]

I thought homosexual death penalties were Islamic.

 

They often are, but David Bahati, a member of Uganda's parliament, proposed a bill that would pronounce the death penalty on homosexuals. Bahati is a conservative Christian and has attended the National Prayer Breakfast in the US.

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

[Franciscan Monkey]

“This is what I would say to the guy who said I shouldn't have hated God, but questioned His existence. I know now why I didn't question. When I went to Africa, I saw very clearly the depth of the depravity and corruption of man. But I also saw that, for how messed-up I thought American culture was, America was nothing like this. As a culture (I'm not speaking about individuals but about general thought) we have much more respect for human life. We understand that the weak and the broken have value, even if we don't want to be personally involved in their care. And though it's fading fast, we still have a faint sense of honor. In Africa I saw a culture that had had nothing to do with God for centuries, and I saw the result. It made me realize how much God was still a part of our culture and how grateful I was for that. Seeing the incredible lack of the presence of God where I was made me see all the more clearly the presence of God elsewhere

 

“I'm not a racist, so I can't believe that my race is more highly evolved or in some other way superior to the African culture. So there's only one way to account for the difference between my culture and theirs - the influence of a very existent God.”

 

In Japan they have even more respect for human life than here in the US, and Japan is one of the least, if not the least, religious countries in the world. The Christian God has almost no influence in Japan. How does your daughter explain that? And her statement that "there's only one way to account for the difference between my culture and theirs - the influence of a very existent God" is so simplistic that it's laughable. Really, that's the "only one way to account for the differences"? How about economics? There is a strong correlation between crime, including murder, and poverty. When people are struggling to survive, they tend to care a lot less for others.

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

[Darklady]

What is the point of the story, walker,

suffering exists, horrible suffering, but doesn't prove or disprove any gods exists, all it proves is that man is a nasty little animal who has little regard to his fellow man (man as in human kind.)

 

did you daughter see the physical manifestation of god? No? how surprizing. Did some god come down from where ever they sit and laugh at human suffering and say, sorry sugar you aren't doing it my way so tough shit? I aint going to answer your feeble prayers and save any body from suffering, cause you ain't doing it MY way.

 

Get real suffering exists, god does not

If suffering proves that man is “a nasty little animal who has little regard to his fellow man (man as in human kind.)” then how do we explain the good man does? How can a “nasty little animal” do anything good?

 

A lack of a physical manifestation of God doesn’t prove God does not exist. God doesn’t insist on His way because of some self-centered need - it’s just that other ways don’t work. My daughter’s way didn’t work (all her ideas fell flat). The people who supplied the orphanage - their way wasn’t working. And it was common knowledge that supplies sent through the postal system often didn’t reach their destination - that way didn’t work either. What did her college advise? They told her not to care so much - that different cultures are different and we have to respect differences.”

 

Suffering does exist, whether we believe God exists or not. Without God we’re “nasty little animals”. With God we can help.

 

'A lack of physical manifestation' - there is NO physical eviidence that any gods exist.

I have to laugh at your statement 'God doesn’t insist on His way because of some self-centered need - it’s just that other ways don’t work.

 

because it is blindly obvious that gods way does not work eaither - but then god doesn't exist so thats not a surprize.

 

Yes man is often a nasty little animal - whether or not he beleives in some god, do some reading and discover for yourself the many nasty ways man has acted because of his belief in some god,

history is full of it

the bible is full of it

what shouldn't be surprizing is that man can also do wonderful things for his fellow man, without any mindnumbing belief in some cruel god. Read the bible walker.

[lunaticheathen]

“I'm not a racist, so I can't believe that my race is more highly evolved or in some other way superior to the African culture. So there's only one way to account for the difference between my culture and theirs - the influence of a very existent God.”

 

That is so blatantly racist I'm coming unglued just reading it. Children are starving to death and genocide carried out because they're not christian? You have a superior god?

 

I am truly thankful I am no longer one of you.

 

NO SHIT!

Also, most of Africa, by this age, has been tainted and COMPLETELY overrun by either Christians or Muslims. And walker, your daughter (or you, whatever) want to claim that their culture is LESSER because they don't BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD??!!!!

I'm seriously spitting mad at this!

For your fucking information, I am a practitioner of Vodou, an Afro-diasporic religion, and the suggestion that Africans have no respect for "broken" humans is IDIOTIC AND COLONIALIST. In fact, African (pre christian) cultures strongly stress family/tribe relations, and have are VERY focused on loving others, and caring for your fellow humans AND animals.

YOU are the ones who fucked Africa up. It's your fucking mess.

Thank Ezili I am NOT YOU!

[Deva]

I thought homosexual death penalties were Islamic.

 

I have no doubt they would be be here in the Southern US as well if the government sanctioned it.

 

We’ll see who gets “left behind”, right? Seriously, the pre-tribulation rapture is more of the prosperity theology thing - “Jesus suffered and died so we’ll never have to.” Have these people read what Jesus said about sufferings and persecutions? Jesus didn’t tell His followers they’d never suffer

 

So, I’ve probably said more than enough. Phew on false Christianity.

 

You are wrong and your statement would be condemned by the end-times obsessed church I went to. These people definitely do not see it as "prosperity theology" - they see it in the Books of Daniel ,Revelation and Paul's letters and so they believe it. They do not draw a conclusion that they would never suffer. I hate defending any of it, because to me its all false, but you have your own take on Christianity and they have theirs.

 

This infighting among Christians is one reason why it is on the way out. A house divided against itself cannot stand and its been happening in Christianity for a thousand years. I say in another thousand it will be something like the Greek religion- most people know about it historically only.

[Darklady]

False christianity walker?

 

what makes YOU think yours is right. out of all the thousands of various sects that claim they are the only 'right'church.

I agree with Luna 100%, you are so full of self righteousness and blinded by thinking that YOU are right and everyone else is reaping the rewards of their UNBELIEF in YOUR god!!!!!!

 

People like you are the cause of unhappiness in the world, the "I'm right and your are wrong' shit.

[walker]

I am a very similar kind of person to your daughter and have had similar dificulties with depressionover the sorry state fo the world and the self interest of individuals. But I am 50. I flailed about in the church for 36 years of my life listening to tired explanation after tired explanation of this god and his so called attributes. After too many years watching good people die from cancer, suicide from depression, lie to themeselves and each other until they became robots, I'd had enough. I got to a point in my life where I could no longer make excuses for god or people. For a person consumed with obsession for honesty, I finally realised that my whole life was based on one big lie.

 

I wanted to believe the best of every person as the bible instructed me to, but its stupid because people suck. I want churches to be full of people who really give a shit about eachother, not this fake sunday smile that disppears the minute you refuse to conform or you actually need something from them. I have learned that decent humble chirstian would be decent and humble anyway as part of who they are hardwired to be, and christians who were assholes to begin with usually stay that way. They just find a new arena to practice their assholery, which usually involves being in charge of something.

 

Trust me walker I wanted god to be true more than anyone, I really thought I had a close relationship with god for years and years. I was just talking to myself. This world is a shithole and to me god was the only pure and true thing left in it. I was wrong. There is nothing pure and true left but the honest genuine deep connection we feel for each other.

From my daughter:

 

"I really identify with what you said about feeling you didn't have people there for you in your church. One of my biggest struggles when I was going through my depression was that I didn't feel I could bring my struggles to my Christian friends. I felt they just spouted "Christianese" at me and expected me to automatically be better. They didn't want to deal with it. The biggest thing I encountered was their fear - they were afraid to question what they had been taught because they were afraid their faith would break down. When I asked questions they didn't know the answer to, they shut me down rather than face the possibility that they would have to wrestle themselves. This really hurt me. I was struggling with feeling like the God I had known and loved was cruel, and I had to struggle alone because no one was there for me.

 

"I didn't go to church for almost a year because I was so sick of feeling judged and avoided because I was struggling. But though my friends couldn't handle my questions or my doubts, God could. He never left me, even when everyone else did. He didn't even leave me when I wanted Him to - when I was so sick of it all that I just wanted a way out. God stood in the midst of all my questions, all my accusations, and all my screaming. And when I calmed down enough to be able to listen, He was there with the answers.

 

"I know it's a Christianese saying to say that people will let you down, but God never will - I know what it's like to have people thoughtlessly throw that phrase at you when you're feeling completely alone and God doesn't seem to be there. But the thing is, though I thought I longed for people to help and support me, they would never have been able to give me what I really wanted. I wanted God. When I was done looking everywhere else for support, and when I was done throwing a tantrum, He was there.

 

"Now I have a friend going through a similar thing, and I'm so grateful that she can come to me and find someone who will listen and not just throw a hollow phrase at her. But though she knows my story, I tell her that this a process she needs to go through and that these are questions she needs to ask. It's really painful, but I'm not the one who can take the pain away. I'm probably not even going to be able to help her feel better because I'm not the one she wants answers from. However, I can tell her, and anyone else who's struggling, that there is another side. God remains loving and true, and the deeper relationship I now have with Him was worth the pain."

[walker]

Anyway - about the “corrupt sinner” mentality - that’s something that exists before relationship with God. That’s not who we are in relationship with God. Those walking with God are freed from that identity - freed to think of others, not self. Freed to solve the problem - not focus on self. My daughter wasn’t thinking of her sin but about God (what she had misunderstood). She pursued God and found deeper understanding, meaning, and relationship. Then she had the strength to go back to the suffering to do what she could.

While I cannot presume to think that I know what another person is thinking, especially since I do not know said person, IMO the entire God/human relationship in Christianity is based upon the corrupt sinner mentality. That is the entire basis of it.

That’s the past, not the present and the future. The entire God-Human relationship is based on bringing us out of the “corrupt sinner” state (the broken relationship) and back into relationship with God.

[Deva]

That’s the past, not the present and the future. The entire God-Human relationship is based on bringing us out of the “corrupt sinner” state (the broken relationship) and back into relationship with God.

 

If it were not based on the corrupt sinner state of affairs there would not be this whole thing of being have to be brought out of it - as I said, the "corrupt sinner" idea is the entire basis of this. That is just what I said. You can't separate the two and make Christianity into something entirely positive. It just doesn't work.

 

It doesn't work to emphasize the "bringing out" without also having an emphasis on the sin state. Beside that, in 40 years in Christianity I have never witnessed anyone who I thought had some special sinless state or was in some better and happier condition. After the artificial smile they have in church wears off, there isn't much else - because its all based on a lie.

[foolish girl]

In the Old Testament, Suffering is all a tool to control people. "Do what I say or I'll let people invade you"

 

"do what I say or I'll make you eat your babies"

 

In the New Testament it is because of sin or lack of faith.

 

Modern Christianity says "Suffering is in the world because sin is in the world". That is a mutation of what the Bible says. The god of the bible, when seen objectively, sees torture as an art form and delights in its perfection.

[walker]

From my daughter:

 

"Since this is a site for ex-Christians, I assume you know the story of Peter denying Jesus three times. Growing up in church, I was taught that, for all Peter's bravado, he panicked at the thought of being crucified with Jesus. I was taught that Peter denied Jesus out of fear. But I no longer think that is the whole truth. On a deeper level, I believe Peter was telling the truth.

 

"The Israelites were waiting for a Messiah to free them from physical captivity from the Romans. They thought Jesus was this person. The disciples thought they were the right-hand men of their long-awaited hero and were excited to be influential in the new government Jesus would set up when Israel was its own nation again. Peter was no different. Peter had some sense that Jesus was more than a great military general, as evidenced by his confession that Jesus was 'the Christ, the Son of the Living God.' This realization, coupled with Peter's passionate personality, led him to serve Jesus zealously right up to the Last Supper. But then Jesus allowed Himself to be captured by the Romans, and he made it very clear that he went willingly. This wasn't in Peter's plan for how things were supposed to go. I believe that when Peter said, 'I don't know Him,' he wasn't lying but realizing that Jesus wasn't the person he thought He was. On one level he was avoiding being arrested, but on another level he was witnessing the death of his greatest dream - to see his loved country freed from a cruel and oppressive Roman regime.

 

"Once Peter came to this realization, he had a choice to make. He could choose to walk away from Jesus forever, or he could choose to return to the man he had grown to love. Peter chose to embrace who Jesus was, not who he wanted Jesus to be. This man eventually became so full of the Holy Spirit that God could use him to bring the dead back to life.

 

"Peter's story is similar to my own. I too came to Jesus with idealistic dreams and had those dreams bulldozed by reality. I too had to face the fact that Jesus wasn't the God I thought He was. Sounds like many of you would say the same thing. When we reached this point, we all had a decision to make. Would we abandon Jesus because He didn't do what we wanted, or would we recognize that Jesus was more than we ever could have imagined?

 

"I've read a lot of the things you've written. You're right - the Messiah who swoops down as a great military general to bring immediate victory against suffering and oppression doesn't exist. Neither does the god who promises to give his followers great earthly wealth, power, fame, etc. I don't know those gods either. But there is a God who, after all our disillusionment, looks us in the eyes and asks a simple question: 'Do you still love me?' Can we love a God who doesn't do what we think He should? I said 'Yes,' and I've never regretted it."