Another Experience With Suffering

[Guest I Love Dog]

From my daughter:

 

" But there is a God who, after all our disillusionment, looks us in the eyes and asks a simple question: 'Do you still love me?' Can we love a God who doesn't do what we think He should? I said 'Yes,' and I've never regretted it."

 

 

That is delusional! Bordering on, well....

 

Where is the evidence for "there is a god" and he/she/it "looking someone in the eye"?

 

This is crazy pious, nonsense!

 

Well, I've had my laugh for the day!

[walker]

I'm reminded of a time before I went to Africa when I was working with a woman who was bitter and hurting. I prayed that God would touch her, show her His incredible love for her. I felt Him telling me, “I can't touch her. She won't let me. But she's letting you touch her, so I'll have to touch her through you.” When I saw people bringing suffering on themselves or others, of course God was trying to speak to them. But He doesn't force people to listen to Him, and they often don't of their own choice. But there's a chance they'll listen to people, so God needs people who will let Him speak through them.

Ahhhh. Touching. That stupid African bitch won't listen to some magic man in the sky so she, and all like her, will suffer. Well, hopefully, someone who does have the good sense to listen to the invisible sky man can get through to her.

 

I'm not sure why this strikes me as a bit "insidious." The idea of a "person" trying to gain access to another person (who doesn't want to listen to them) through a trusted third party in the name of "love." And when they just won't "listen" they (in the name of said "love") let them languish in the very pain and suffering that they are so eagerly offering to help with. The "catch" being that you *must* "love" that first "person" before any aid will be given. It's a "strings attached" situation and a creepy one at that. "My friend you've never met and don't know, but you refuse to talk with, told me to tell you this: 'I know you're in the gutter and are really, really hurting. I love you and can help you with that. Look. Here's some money. See? I'm loaded. All you have to do to get it is LOVE ME, more than anyone and anything else, with all your heart and soul forever and ever (and obey all my rules). That's all I'm asking. Is that too much? Or you can just lay there and rot but why punish yourself? Your choice.'"

 

mwc

The woman wasn’t African - this happened before my daughter went to Africa. God, either directly or through His followers, brings healing and good things to unbelievers. He loves them though they don’t love Him or even acknowledge He exists. He doesn’t leave people in the gutter until they say the magic words - He goes down into the gutter after them. Jesus demonstrated this physically by becoming human and meeting us where we were.

[walker]

Thanks for your comment, Franciscan Monkey. I asked my daughter if she would be helping to alleviate suffering if she didn’t believe in God and she said NO - she wouldn’t want to see the suffering. She believes God empowers her to do what she wouldn’t do on her own. If there were no God she believes she would only do what would benefit her.- loving others when there is no chance of personal gain is “unreasonable“ (against reason).

And yet many atheists do love others when there is no chance of personal gain. I believe your daughter actually would still do these things even without a belief in God, despite what she says, but I could be wrong. If a belief in God is what is necessary for her to act compassionately, then I guess that is fine. That would indicate to me that she is selfish, but if the end result is the same, then belief in God is a useful crutch for her. It is interesting to note that even chimpanzees will act altruistically.

Though we all have selfishness to some degree, I don’t think this would be the main reason my daughter wouldn’t act without God. I think she would be unable to because she would be too weak and become too depressed - and that would immobilize her. She’s very sensitive - she doesn’t have a tough outer skin. Everyone avoids things they can’t handle - things that hurt too much.

 

Too true that many close their eyes to suffering. Believers and non-believers would fall into this category. But many do not close their eyes to suffering, believers and non-believers alike.

Yes, many “believers” close their eyes to suffering. Some really don’t believe, or believe the basics but have stayed on a “Christianity 101” level. Some believe wrong things - some of which can keep them focused on themselves. Some can’t emotionally handle suffering. And some who are actually strong and mature are overwhelmed because “the workers are few”.

 

Most (Christians, many other religions, atheists, etc.) would probably agree with the “concept” that people should help others (especially those who are hungry, sick, etc.). So … why are people still starving to death? Not tended to when sick? Not properly clothed? Why do so many not do what they all agree should be done?

Many people do not have the means to do so.

 

Many people do not actually care and are selfish.

 

Prayers are obviously going unanswered.

 

The power of God through believers is not enough, as a non-existent god is powerless.

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

I believe everyone who wants to can do something. Prayers - I heard an “on fire” Christian guy tell the story of his neighbor, an older man, who needed a tree branch cut down (not high). This guy was a big, strong, healthy guy with power tools, etc. He told his neighbor he’d pray for his situation. Why didn’t the guy cut the tree branch down himself? Why didn’t he ask a friend if he’d be willing to do it? God often works through people (instead of miraculously cutting branches down).

[Ro-bear]

Too bad. I see a woman who was on the way to casting aside a delusion who got sucked back in. I'm glad she is a good person who wants to help others, though. My daughters are like that, too. They don't do it because they think any sky daddy wants them to do it, though; they do it because they think it is the right thing to do.

[Darklady]

Walker you obviously don't want to engage, just preach.

Just more of the same garbage we hear over and over again.

[Galien]

From my daughter:

 

"I know it's a Christianese saying to say that people will let you down, but God never will - I know what it's like to have people thoughtlessly throw that phrase at you when you're feeling completely alone and God doesn't seem to be there. But the thing is, though I thought I longed for people to help and support me, they would never have been able to give me what I really wanted. I wanted God. When I was done looking everywhere else for support, and when I was done throwing a tantrum, He was there.

 

 

"Now I have a friend going through a similar thing, and I'm so grateful that she can come to me and find someone who will listen and not just throw a hollow phrase at her. But though she knows my story, I tell her that this a process she needs to go through and that these are questions she needs to ask. It's really painful, but I'm not the one who can take the pain away. I'm probably not even going to be able to help her feel better because I'm not the one she wants answers from. However, I can tell her, and anyone else who's struggling, that there is another side. God remains loving and true, and the deeper relationship I now have with Him was worth the pain."

 

And when I calmed down god wasn't there.

 

God lets us all down because he either isn't there or doesn't care. You have a deep relationship with the pure heart of yourself. What I believed to be god let me down in more ways that I could ever describe, and the pain is soul destroying. That isn't love. I don't know if you are a parent or not walker's daughter but good parents do no stand by and watch their children suffer if they love them. Ever.

[walker]

Briefly -

 

Concerning “racism”, my daughter attended a large, well-known, highly respected university which had a “campus” in Africa. She had African professors while there, and these African professors questioned why the African people didn’t really fight the white men when they came to colonize, “loot“, and enslave. They felt the Africans had the means and had certain aspects on their side (they were used to their climate and had more immunity to African diseases). Africans were strong and brave. These African professors taught that their ancestors couldn’t seem to band together because tribes fought each other, often for religious reasons. They taught that their ancestors thought white men were superior to them (again for religious reasons). They said though Africa is rich in natural resources their continent has some of the poorest in the world.

 

I want to emphasize that African professors hired by a prestigious, liberal, non-Christian university said these things. These are not my daughter’s thoughts.

 

(As a side note, my daughter still has many African and African-American friends. She attends a church that is mostly ethnic - black and Hispanic … some Asian. She’s well-liked.)

 

We both apologize for hurting anyone - that was not meant. Perhaps African professors think differently from Americans?

[Ouroboros]

...

“I'm not a racist, so I can't believe that my race is more highly evolved or in some other way superior to the African culture. So there's only one way to account for the difference between my culture and theirs - the influence of a very existent God.”

 

 

Concerning “racism”, my daughter attended a large, well-known, highly respected university which had a “campus” in Africa. She had African professors while there, and these African professors questioned why the African people didn’t really fight the white men when they came to colonize, “loot“, and enslave. They felt the Africans had the means and had certain aspects on their side (they were used to their climate and had more immunity to African diseases). Africans were strong and brave. These African professors taught that their ancestors couldn’t seem to band together because tribes fought each other, often for religious reasons. They taught that their ancestors thought white men were superior to them (again for religious reasons). They said though Africa is rich in natural resources their continent has some of the poorest in the world.

...

 

I'm not sure I understand the views presented here, but when these two are combined, it sounds like thanks to Christianity and belief in God that made them united and strong as a force, the west colonized, looted, and enslaved the Africans who were weak because of their different beliefs. Is that what you're suggesting?

 

God made the west united and strong, so west could be evil and empower weaker nations, and that's why God and Christianity is so great?

 

I must be missing something. Could you please explain?

[searchinwithnoagenda]

"But God works through people"

 

If god works through people and the people are doing all the work, what is the need for god?

 

 

[searchinwithnoagenda]

"I believe your daughter actually would still do these things even without a belief in God, despite what she says, but I could be wrong."

 

I would bet she has been told by religious leaders she would not do these things if she did not believe in god. However, I believe she is probably tender hearted all on her own and would still help as she has even without god!!!

 

 

[mwc]

The woman wasn’t African - this happened before my daughter went to Africa. God, either directly or through His followers, brings healing and good things to unbelievers. He loves them though they don’t love Him or even acknowledge He exists. He doesn’t leave people in the gutter until they say the magic words - He goes down into the gutter after them.

Okay. Strike African. Nothing changes.

 

Jesus demonstrated this physically by becoming human and meeting us where we were.

Who did what now?

 

mwc

[lunaticheathen]

Briefly -

 

Concerning “racism”, my daughter attended a large, well-known, highly respected university which had a “campus” in Africa. She had African professors while there, and these African professors questioned why the African people didn’t really fight the white men when they came to colonize, “loot“, and enslave. They felt the Africans had the means and had certain aspects on their side (they were used to their climate and had more immunity to African diseases). Africans were strong and brave. These African professors taught that their ancestors couldn’t seem to band together because tribes fought each other, often for religious reasons. They taught that their ancestors thought white men were superior to them (again for religious reasons). They said though Africa is rich in natural resources their continent has some of the poorest in the world.

 

I want to emphasize that African professors hired by a prestigious, liberal, non-Christian university said these things. These are not my daughter’s thoughts.

 

(As a side note, my daughter still has many African and African-American friends. She attends a church that is mostly ethnic - black and Hispanic … some Asian. She’s well-liked.)

 

We both apologize for hurting anyone - that was not meant. Perhaps African professors think differently from Americans?

 

Maybe they were lied to by the CHRISTIANS THAT TOOK THEM OVER!

Again, Africa - Christian's mess. Fuck you.

[Darklady]

Briefly -

 

Concerning “racism”, my daughter attended a large, well-known, highly respected university which had a “campus” in Africa. She had African professors while there, and these African professors questioned why the African people didn’t really fight the white men when they came to colonize, “loot“, and enslave. They felt the Africans had the means and had certain aspects on their side (they were used to their climate and had more immunity to African diseases). Africans were strong and brave. These African professors taught that their ancestors couldn’t seem to band together because tribes fought each other, often for religious reasons. They taught that their ancestors thought white men were superior to them (again for religious reasons). They said though Africa is rich in natural resources their continent has some of the poorest in the world.

 

I want to emphasize that African professors hired by a prestigious, liberal, non-Christian university said these things. These are not my daughter’s thoughts.

 

(As a side note, my daughter still has many African and African-American friends. She attends a church that is mostly ethnic - black and Hispanic … some Asian. She’s well-liked.)

 

We both apologize for hurting anyone - that was not meant. Perhaps African professors think differently from Americans?

 

Maybe they were lied to by the CHRISTIANS THAT TOOK THEM OVER!

Again, Africa - Christian's mess. Fuck you.

 

so your daughter is not racist, well guess what, nor am I and gee i don't even need some made up pie in the sky to tell me that ....

oh wait the bible god loves genocide, what was i thinking

[walker]

Most (Christians, many other religions, atheists, etc.) would probably agree with the “concept” that people should help others (especially those who are hungry, sick, etc.). So … why are people still starving to death? Not tended to when sick? Not properly clothed? Why do so many not do what they all agree should be done?

There are millions of people helping those who suffer. It's just that they don't all need god to help them to do it or don't want their story written up as a proselytizing exercise on an Ex Christian site.

 

Most people keep private how they help and support others, but I will tell you that my daughters, both atheists, are incredibly philanthropic, helping in so many ways to alleviate people's misery and suffering. They don't need an invisible entity to prompt them. They do it out of love for humanity. That is their driving force for what they do.

 

If your daughter needs god to drive her in what she does to help others, then the problem arises as to what she'd do if she stopped believing in god? Would she stop helping others? No, of course she wouldn't. Doesn't that make her god a bit redundant? A god that is sadly missing in action when it comes to help alleviate suffering of "his children".

 

If your god was a good communicator then he'd surely command the closing of those ridiculously idiotic wastes of space, money and time called churches, command the selling of them , with the proceeds distributed to help those in need.

 

I mosquito net in Africa costs around $10 and they save lives like nothing else does. $10 to save one life. How many lives could the Catholic Church alone save if they liquidated their assets, their Churches, their works of art and their real estate.

 

Your god is totally ineffectual when it comes to the protection of the human race. We're just lucky we have humans who care about others.

If there are millions of people helping those who suffer, then why is there still such a large problem? I don’t see that you addressed my questions.

 

I’ve said this in other posts, but my daughter feels she wouldn’t be able to help the suffering without God because she wouldn’t be able to face it without His Strength. This would be hard to prove … all I can say is after Africa and before she worked things out with God she did nothing to see or help suffering.

 

There are reason to have some church buildings, but we probably don’t need as many as we have … and we don’t need to replace the carpet instead of helping the poor. I agree.

 

I don’t know about mosquito nets, but if they’re so inexpensive then why hasn’t every African who wants one been supplied with one? (Then, of course, the people have to use them and use them correctly.) And though malaria is a killer, parasites are a huge problem. My daughter witnessed the local African approach to sanitation (including sanitation in hospitals). These Africans weren’t uneducated or poor, yet their ways are spreading disease. And when my daughter told the orphanage staff (trained, not poor) it wasn’t good to have rats running around they laughed at her for her “white woman” ideas. So, do we honor and respect their customs, or do we teach them “white” ways?

[walker]

I asked the question of all people - Christians included. As far as the general Christian population … don’t get me started. The general state of the American Christian Church is an immature, uneducated, weak, often foolish, mess. I won’t say I’ve seen it all, but I’ve seen a lot. Why would an American Christian attending a “prosperity theology” church think about anything other than getting rich and famous themselves? Then there are those who are so busy finding a demon under every bush that they miss the real demons (hunger, sickness, poverty). But hey - they’re working on finding the exact way to pronounce YHWH because there’s “power in the Name”! How about those who are “saved by grace” but busy with performing a zillion “necessary” church works so they can get into heaven? (What?) And then there are those who got baptized, got their admission ticket, and can now put their feet up and “live like hell” and die and go to heaven? (Greasy grace - slide right into heaven.) To top it all off, we have people like Fred Phelps can only think about telling a certain group that they’re going to hell.

 

(And as far as “converting people” - only God can do that. So Christians can put away their belts full of “notches“.)

 

Sure, there are a few mature, educated, wise, strong Christians who are really bringing life and change to their big or small world … but they’re easy to miss. They’re a remnant. In the meantime, we’ve got all the others who often make more work for those maturely working. I’m with you, OF. I reject all this too. (And they all probably judge me to be worthy of hell!)

 

I thought homosexual death penalties were Islamic.

 

We’ll see who gets “left behind”, right? Seriously, the pre-tribulation rapture is more of the prosperity theology thing - “Jesus suffered and died so we’ll never have to.” Have these people read what Jesus said about sufferings and persecutions? Jesus didn’t tell His followers they’d never suffer

 

So, I’ve probably said more than enough. Phew on false Christianity.

oh and there it is again those magic words...false christianity

Do you, Kathlene, believe it is not possible for people to have wrong ideas about God and His Truth?

[walker]

I thought homosexual death penalties were Islamic.

They often are, but David Bahati, a member of Uganda's parliament, proposed a bill that would pronounce the death penalty on homosexuals. Bahati is a conservative Christian and has attended the National Prayer Breakfast in the US.

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

It seems to me that Bahati missed Jesus’ words and actions. Thanks for the information - I hadn’t heard of him before.

[par4dcourse]

Do you, Kathlene, believe it is not possible for people to have wrong ideas about God and His Truth?

 

That's a dumbass sort of a silly question considering this is EX-CHRISTIAN.NET.

 

 

 

[Ouroboros]

So, I’ve probably said more than enough. Phew on false Christianity.

oh and there it is again those magic words...false christianity

Do you, Kathlene, believe it is not possible for people to have wrong ideas about God and His Truth?

Perhaps you're one of them. How would we know you're not just another one with the wrong ideas about God and His Truth? Should we trust you that you're telling the truth™ only because you think and believe that you know the truth? What about all other billions of people who think they know the truth and disagree with you? Are they false because you believe they're false, and only you are true because you believe you're true, even though they believe they are true and you are false? So why are you so much better and higher than all other people to such a degree that only your belief counts as the one and only measurement against truth and falsehood?

 

How can we discern between truths? Oh, I know. Evidence. Bring it. If you're here to convert us, then you're the one who should bring the cake.

[walker]

“This is what I would say to the guy who said I shouldn't have hated God, but questioned His existence. I know now why I didn't question. When I went to Africa, I saw very clearly the depth of the depravity and corruption of man. But I also saw that, for how messed-up I thought American culture was, America was nothing like this. As a culture (I'm not speaking about individuals but about general thought) we have much more respect for human life. We understand that the weak and the broken have value, even if we don't want to be personally involved in their care. And though it's fading fast, we still have a faint sense of honor. In Africa I saw a culture that had had nothing to do with God for centuries, and I saw the result. It made me realize how much God was still a part of our culture and how grateful I was for that. Seeing the incredible lack of the presence of God where I was made me see all the more clearly the presence of God elsewhere

 

“I'm not a racist, so I can't believe that my race is more highly evolved or in some other way superior to the African culture. So there's only one way to account for the difference between my culture and theirs - the influence of a very existent God.”

In Japan they have even more respect for human life than here in the US, and Japan is one of the least, if not the least, religious countries in the world. The Christian God has almost no influence in Japan. How does your daughter explain that? And her statement that "there's only one way to account for the difference between my culture and theirs - the influence of a very existent God" is so simplistic that it's laughable. Really, that's the "only one way to account for the differences"? How about economics? There is a strong correlation between crime, including murder, and poverty. When people are struggling to survive, they tend to care a lot less for others.

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

Kamikazes? Japanese war crimes?

 

The women who worked at the orphanage my daughter helped at weren’t struggling to survive. They were trained, educated, and paid even if they didn’t show for work. This method of paying workers resulted in a problem right before my daughter came - the special needs area of the orphanage had to be closed because workers didn’t come to work and the children, who couldn‘t feed themselves, were starving to death. The other orphanage workers made a decision to save donated money for an air conditioner - they did this by buying only rice and tomatoes for the children to eat. Yes - Africa is hot, but Africans are used to their climate and used to having no AC. 70 degrees feels cold to them. AC is nice to have, but before food? The children didn’t mind the heat.

 

Yes, people tend to take care of their own needs first. But this isn’t what Jesus taught. God’s Way is not “natural” or of this world.

[walker]

If suffering proves that man is “a nasty little animal who has little regard to his fellow man (man as in human kind.)” then how do we explain the good man does? How can a “nasty little animal” do anything good?

 

A lack of a physical manifestation of God doesn’t prove God does not exist. God doesn’t insist on His way because of some self-centered need - it’s just that other ways don’t work. My daughter’s way didn’t work (all her ideas fell flat). The people who supplied the orphanage - their way wasn’t working. And it was common knowledge that supplies sent through the postal system often didn’t reach their destination - that way didn’t work either. What did her college advise? They told her not to care so much - that different cultures are different and we have to respect differences.”

 

Suffering does exist, whether we believe God exists or not. Without God we’re “nasty little animals”. With God we can help.

'A lack of physical manifestation' - there is NO physical eviidence that any gods exist.

I have to laugh at your statement 'God doesn’t insist on His way because of some self-centered need - it’s just that other ways don’t work.

 

because it is blindly obvious that gods way does not work eaither - but then god doesn't exist so thats not a surprize.

 

Yes man is often a nasty little animal - whether or not he beleives in some god, do some reading and discover for yourself the many nasty ways man has acted because of his belief in some god,

history is full of it

the bible is full of it

what shouldn't be surprizing is that man can also do wonderful things for his fellow man, without any mindnumbing belief in some cruel god. Read the bible walker.

I would say God’s Way works - we don’t. There’s only one perfect person in the Bible - true. History is filled with imperfect people too - agreed.

 

You had written that man is “a nasty little animal who has little regard to his fellow man (man as in human kind.)”. You then said man is often a nasty little animal. I asked how you explain the good man does. ?

[Guest I Love Dog]

 

I don’t know about mosquito nets, but if they’re so inexpensive then why hasn’t every African who wants one been supplied with one? (Then, of course, the people have to use them and use them correctly.)

 

 

http://www.nothingbutnets.net/its-easy-to-help/

[walker]

I thought homosexual death penalties were Islamic.

I have no doubt they would be be here in the Southern US as well if the government sanctioned it.

Maybe. Tobacco and alcohol and dancing might be illegal too.

 

We’ll see who gets “left behind”, right? Seriously, the pre-tribulation rapture is more of the prosperity theology thing - “Jesus suffered and died so we’ll never have to.” Have these people read what Jesus said about sufferings and persecutions? Jesus didn’t tell His followers they’d never suffer

 

So, I’ve probably said more than enough. Phew on false Christianity.

You are wrong and your statement would be condemned by the end-times obsessed church I went to. These people definitely do not see it as "prosperity theology" - they see it in the Books of Daniel ,Revelation and Paul's letters and so they believe it. They do not draw a conclusion that they would never suffer. I hate defending any of it, because to me its all false, but you have your own take on Christianity and they have theirs.

 

This infighting among Christians is one reason why it is on the way out. A house divided against itself cannot stand and its been happening in Christianity for a thousand years. I say in another thousand it will be something like the Greek religion- most people know about it historically only.

True - churches can be obsessed with end-time thoughts and not be “prosperity theology“. They can also be obsessed with end-time thoughts and not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. But believing it is one thing … spending a lot of time on it is another. How did this belief affect what your past church did? What actions resulted from their belief?

 

I don’t know any human “houses” that aren’t at least somewhat divided, except houses where there is no freedom of thought permitted. End-time thought isn’t a crucial belief anyway. You’re right though - the fact that Christianity is around today is miraculous.

[walker]

False christianity walker?

 

what makes YOU think yours is right. out of all the thousands of various sects that claim they are the only 'right'church.

I agree with Luna 100%, you are so full of self righteousness and blinded by thinking that YOU are right and everyone else is reaping the rewards of their UNBELIEF in YOUR god!!!!!!

 

People like you are the cause of unhappiness in the world, the "I'm right and your are wrong' shit.

Wouldn’t you say you’re right and I’m wrong? What makes you think you are right? How do you know? How do you determine this?

[Galien]

Your daughter is a lovely girl. She would be that person with god or without.

[walker]

That’s the past, not the present and the future. The entire God-Human relationship is based on bringing us out of the “corrupt sinner” state (the broken relationship) and back into relationship with God.

If it were not based on the corrupt sinner state of affairs there would not be this whole thing of being have to be brought out of it - as I said, the "corrupt sinner" idea is the entire basis of this. That is just what I said. You can't separate the two and make Christianity into something entirely positive. It just doesn't work.

 

It doesn't work to emphasize the "bringing out" without also having an emphasis on the sin state. Beside that, in 40 years in Christianity I have never witnessed anyone who I thought had some special sinless state or was in some better and happier condition. After the artificial smile they have in church wears off, there isn't much else - because its all based on a lie.

You’re right in that there is “Bad News” before the “Good News”. You have been able to move from your Christian past - I can move from my past of broken relationship with God. I’m not sinless but my sin no longer stops me from walking with God. That’s positive.

 

I don’t do the artificial smile.