Another Experience With Suffering

[Franciscan Monkey]

In Japan they have even more respect for human life than here in the US, and Japan is one of the least, if not the least, religious countries in the world. The Christian God has almost no influence in Japan. How does your daughter explain that? And her statement that "there's only one way to account for the difference between my culture and theirs - the influence of a very existent God" is so simplistic that it's laughable. Really, that's the "only one way to account for the differences"? How about economics? There is a strong correlation between crime, including murder, and poverty. When people are struggling to survive, they tend to care a lot less for others.

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

 

Kamikazes? Japanese war crimes?

 

This actually reinforces my point. Japan was significantly more religious during and before World War II. After Japan was defeated, the Emperor declared that he was not a deity. Thereafter, religiosity among the Japanese declined sharply. Japan currently has one of the lowest murder rates in the world (the US murder rate, by comparison, is over 8.5 times higher). Of course, this is not to say that Japan today is the perfect country without its issues. Also, since WWII, Americans have been involved in war crimes, the most notable being the My Lai massacre.

 

The women who worked at the orphanage my daughter helped at weren’t struggling to survive. They were trained, educated, and paid even if they didn’t show for work. This method of paying workers resulted in a problem right before my daughter came - the special needs area of the orphanage had to be closed because workers didn’t come to work and the children, who couldn‘t feed themselves, were starving to death. The other orphanage workers made a decision to save donated money for an air conditioner - they did this by buying only rice and tomatoes for the children to eat. Yes - Africa is hot, but Africans are used to their climate and used to having no AC. 70 degrees feels cold to them. AC is nice to have, but before food? The children didn’t mind the heat.

 

Yes, people tend to take care of their own needs first. But this isn’t what Jesus taught. God’s Way is not “natural” or of this world.

 

Well, the story at your daughter's orphanage is definitely tragic. However, there are many instances of people putting other's needs before their own, and many of those instances don't involve Christians. People do these things without the Christian God. How is that possible, Walker?

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

[Franciscan Monkey]

"But God works through people"

 

If god works through people and the people are doing all the work, what is the need for god?

God works through people - the effort unites God (His Power and Spirit) and the person. He gives direction and encouragement, etc. A cheering crowd can help a tired runner find his “second wind” at the end of a long race. Helping the suffering is often difficult, tiring, discouraging, frustrating, seemingly hopeless work.

 

So when a Hindu helps people, it is the god Tara that is working through the helper? Or Allah through the Muslim helper? Who or what would actually be working through the atheist helper?

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

[Franciscan Monkey]

I thought homosexual death penalties were Islamic.

They often are, but David Bahati, a member of Uganda's parliament, proposed a bill that would pronounce the death penalty on homosexuals. Bahati is a conservative Christian and has attended the National Prayer Breakfast in the US.

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

It seems to me that Bahati missed Jesus’ words and actions. Thanks for the information - I hadn’t heard of him before.

 

Perhaps he did miss Jesus' words and actions. Paul seemed to have some pretty harsh words for the homosexuals, although he didn't go so far as to say that we should kill them. Of course, the OT God did command such a thing, but he was wrong, wasn't he, Walker? I mean, God evolved into a more compassionate being by the time the NT rolled around. Not totally compassionate, mind you, but at least better than he was in the OT.

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

[Ouroboros]

I'm not sure I understand the views presented here, but when these two are combined, it sounds like thanks to Christianity and belief in God that made them united and strong as a force, the west colonized, looted, and enslaved the Africans who were weak because of their different beliefs. Is that what you're suggesting?

 

God made the west united and strong, so west could be evil and empower weaker nations, and that's why God and Christianity is so great?

 

I must be missing something. Could you please explain?

Many religions can unite a people, and rulers have used religions for this purpose. The Spanish Catholic Church sent missionaries to South America to help conquer the people - to teach them to honor the colonizing power. The French Catholic Church did a similar thing in parts of North Africa. Colonizers would use Christianity to justify what they were doing, but of course it was all about money.

 

Just because religion can unite and strengthen doesn’t mean the rulers/people are then acting in accordance with the teachings of the God they claim to worship. In fact, people don’t even need to know much about what they claim to believe to pick up some helpful teachings. So, for example, the value of hard work is picked up but the reasons God directs it are lost (along with the balance). And the value of uniting a people is picked up but how to use this power is lost. Religion doesn’t necessarily produce godly character - especially if there is no relationship with God.

That's your answer? I don't see how that answers my question.

 

Oh, well. Whatever.

[Darklady]

"I believe your daughter actually would still do these things even without a belief in God, despite what she says, but I could be wrong."

 

I would bet she has been told by religious leaders she would not do these things if she did not believe in god. However, I believe she is probably tender hearted all on her own and would still help as she has even without god!!!

In all my decades as a Christian I have never heard any religious leader say people wouldn’t help the suffering if they didn’t believe in God. Her tender-heart is why she wouldn’t be able to help without God’s Strength - what she saw would hurt too much.

 

Well I feel sorry for your daughter. You have such little belief in her abilities and strength. People without god are just if not more capable of doing anything they want. Belief in god does not give strength, in fact in my experience it saps it, and destroys self confidence, and ability to cope. Trying to follow god as per the bible, leaves people without resources and the ability to reason and think for themselves. You are a good example of the inability to think, as your replies to this thread have been nothing but the usual bible bashing. Waste of time.

[walker]

Briefly -

 

Concerning “racism”, my daughter attended a large, well-known, highly respected university which had a “campus” in Africa. She had African professors while there, and these African professors questioned why the African people didn’t really fight the white men when they came to colonize, “loot“, and enslave. They felt the Africans had the means and had certain aspects on their side (they were used to their climate and had more immunity to African diseases). Africans were strong and brave. These African professors taught that their ancestors couldn’t seem to band together because tribes fought each other, often for religious reasons. They taught that their ancestors thought white men were superior to them (again for religious reasons). They said though Africa is rich in natural resources their continent has some of the poorest in the world.

 

I want to emphasize that African professors hired by a prestigious, liberal, non-Christian university said these things. These are not my daughter’s thoughts.

 

(As a side note, my daughter still has many African and African-American friends. She attends a church that is mostly ethnic - black and Hispanic … some Asian. She’s well-liked.)

 

We both apologize for hurting anyone - that was not meant. Perhaps African professors think differently from Americans?

Maybe they were lied to by the CHRISTIANS THAT TOOK THEM OVER!

Again, Africa - Christian's mess. Fuck you.

Are you suggesting that the African professors weren’t intelligent enough to recognize a lie and think for themselves?

[lunaticheathen]

Briefly -

 

Concerning “racism”, my daughter attended a large, well-known, highly respected university which had a “campus” in Africa. She had African professors while there, and these African professors questioned why the African people didn’t really fight the white men when they came to colonize, “loot“, and enslave. They felt the Africans had the means and had certain aspects on their side (they were used to their climate and had more immunity to African diseases). Africans were strong and brave. These African professors taught that their ancestors couldn’t seem to band together because tribes fought each other, often for religious reasons. They taught that their ancestors thought white men were superior to them (again for religious reasons). They said though Africa is rich in natural resources their continent has some of the poorest in the world.

 

I want to emphasize that African professors hired by a prestigious, liberal, non-Christian university said these things. These are not my daughter’s thoughts.

 

(As a side note, my daughter still has many African and African-American friends. She attends a church that is mostly ethnic - black and Hispanic … some Asian. She’s well-liked.)

 

We both apologize for hurting anyone - that was not meant. Perhaps African professors think differently from Americans?

Maybe they were lied to by the CHRISTIANS THAT TOOK THEM OVER!

Again, Africa - Christian's mess. Fuck you.

Are you suggesting that the African professors weren’t intelligent enough to recognize a lie and think for themselves?

 

I had a white American professor tell me that all homosexuals should be put to death, and I should be in the kitchen, not at school.

Stupid comes in all colors, and with many titles.

Also, I suspect you (or your daughter, who knows at this point, why doesn't SHE have an account?) of lies.

So, yes, if these "African professors" actually said these idiotic things, they are stupid. They bought a lie. Wouldn't be the first time. But I'm not a racist, like you, to assume that the reason is their color or nationality.

[LivingLife]

Maybe I could just interject here about Africa. Folk here are very superstitious and I have been in 4 different countries and they all are more or less the same. Most into forefather worship perhaps similar to the American "Indians"

 

Of course xianity tells them their traditions are in fact evil and they merely exchange one delusion for another. The biggest xian church here in SA is the Zion Christian Church where all the members are black and is a mixture of tradition, OT and very little of the fundie xian crap.

 

Just like xianity, this tradition is passed down generation to generation but even the native delusions are losing traction with more educated youth.

[lunaticheathen]

"Exchange one delusion for another..."

 

 

FUCK YOU

[LivingLife]

"Exchange one delusion for another..."

 

 

FUCK YOU

 

If the shoe fits...

[lunaticheathen]

"Exchange one delusion for another..."

 

 

FUCK YOU

 

If the shoe fits...

 

Ignored.

[LivingLife]

Hey what is your issue?

 

I was not even addressing you.

 

If you need a belief in something have at it, you took offense where none was intended.

 

Maybe you should get a life or something. Just saying

[Ouroboros]

Keep it civil in this section. We're not in the Lion's Den.

[foolish girl]

A debate concerning the issue of suffering with Bart Erhman. Worth a gander.

[Deva]

Foolish Girl, I watched the debate. D'Souza (the Christian) has only one answer - "The Bible Said it, I believe it, and we don't have the right to question it."

 

This is someone who thinks the Book of Job has the correct approach - don't question God because you don't have the right to.

 

That's all. That's the best he can do.

[Eugene39]

I watched it also. One of the problems I have with Christianity is it is filled with "answers" - answers that don't work. Answers that require us to assume the blame - blame for things that happened 6,000 years ago, according to their theology. God is given a free pass to do whatever He wants. For Christianity to work, God MUST be held exempt from the morality that He requires from us, according to the Bible.

[foolish girl]

I'm glad that you guys watched it! I have Erhamn's book "God's Problem". It is very respectfully and eloquently written. I recommend it!

[walker]

Perhaps you're one of them. How would we know you're not just another one with the wrong ideas about God and His Truth? Should we trust you that you're telling the truth™ only because you think and believe that you know the truth? What about all other billions of people who think they know the truth and disagree with you? Are they false because you believe they're false, and only you are true because you believe you're true, even though they believe they are true and you are false? So why are you so much better and higher than all other people to such a degree that only your belief counts as the one and only measurement against truth and falsehood?

 

How can we discern between truths? Oh, I know. Evidence. Bring it. If you're here to convert us, then you're the one who should bring the cake.

Perhaps you have wrong ideas. One cannot prove God does not exist.

 

You should not trust me or what anyone says - you should logically, fairly, and objectively weigh the matter yourself. And, no one should trust you.

 

As I’ve said before, I’m not here to convert. I can’t do that. Only God can speak to someone’s heart.

 

It seems to me to be a no-brainer that if some literal Bible-believers teach that all God’s children should expect to live rich and pain-free now on earth - that this doesn’t line up with Jesus’ teachings. Shouldn’t the teachings of literal Bible-believers make sense with all passages of the Bible? Whether you believe or not, can their teaching be logically supported by the Bible?

[walker]

I don’t know about mosquito nets, but if they’re so inexpensive then why hasn’t every African who wants one been supplied with one? (Then, of course, the people have to use them and use them correctly.)

 

http://www.nothingbu...s-easy-to-help/

Good idea, but who makes sure the nets are used correctly day to day?

 

Did you know people in Africa are diagnosed as having malaria when they don’t necessarily have it? It seems the doctors are quick to use this diagnosis. And blood tests, even in city hospitals, are not done according to typical health standards. Parasites cause a lot of illnesses. City sanitation practices are quite different from the standard practices we know.

[walker]

P.S...I am not mad at you, walker.

I am disgusted with the Bible.

Thanks, foolish girl. The Bible can be really hard to understand. The ancient world is so foreign to us.

[seriously]

P.S...I am not mad at you, walker.

I am disgusted with the Bible.

Thanks, foolish girl. The Bible can be really hard to understand. The ancient world is so foreign to us.

 

That makes it excusable?

[walker]

It's one thing to have nice arguments about how a good God can allow suffering while you're living the cushy American life. It's another thing to live among it and feel like you're watching God do nothing.

 

The cushy American people don't get by with it, usually. This reminds me of the rich man and Lazarus. If you live the cushy stuff now, you'll be the rich man who was begging Lazarus for some water. So instead of writing off God because I see human suffering, it would (and does) scare the pants off of me, because I know that he's avenges people extremely, and that if they're getting that now, everyone who lives cushy and doesn't make a life of helping them is going to get it that much worse in the end. I really see no other explanation. There's an order to the universe, a Bible that I'm convinced is infallible, and I'm leaning towards predestination, so posts like this really bother me because I basically feel like I'm going to be charged with everything that's happening to them. The Bible says to sell everything you own and give alms. So basically, when it comes down to it and we're judged by what it says (over and over again: Give to the poor, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and in prison), then there really won't be anything we can say to that. I really don't want that to happen to me or anyone else. I just wanted to post this because everything I see just really bothers me. Like I read on a website about something similar, and I thought, "I'm going to be blamed for this, for not doing enough to prevent this, for gluttony, etc." I'm posting this mainly just out of fear for my own situation, so if I'm talking out loud.

Thanks for your thoughts, onequestion. I don’t believe reformed theology or predestination (which contradicts free choice). On the rich man and Lazarus - I don’t see that the Bible teaches that all rich people are condemned and all poor people are “saved”. Abraham was blessed to be a blessing (Gen. 12). If we’re in relationship with God it will be a natural thing to want to help others, but we can only do what we can do. No one can help everyone (but if everyone helped someone it’d be a very different world). We can appreciate God’s blessings - they just shouldn’t become our goal and focus. And of course we should want to share with those who are in need.

 

God will hold us accountable for what He wanted us to do - what we could do. But there is also forgiveness. God looks at our hearts - our intentions. I’m not at all saying that actions aren’t important because they are - they usually show what’s going on in our hearts. On the other hand, if we’re only judged by our actions we’re all sunk. Relationship is the goal - not religion, not rules.

[walker]

How can the bible be infallible, if for example, the problem of evil/suffering is valid. Onequestion.

Valk, forgive me if I've asked you this before - but what do you mean when you say "infallible"? What would an "infallible" Bible be to you?

[foolish girl]

P.S...I am not mad at you, walker.

I am disgusted with the Bible.

Thanks, foolish girl. The Bible can be really hard to understand. The ancient world is so foreign to us.

 

Ok, but I understand it just fine.

Front to back.

I understand it through Christian goggles, through a historical lens , and as a newly objective viewer.

 

I knew all of the answers when I walked away- including what to say when things were too mysterious, or didn't make sense.

 

The Bible is boring, ridiculous and disgusting to me simply because It is not hard to understand.

 

It only becomes difficult when you try to make it line up with our modern sociological concepts regarding freedom, decency, and equality.

[walker]

Do you, Kathlene, believe it is not possible for people to have wrong ideas about God and His Truth?

Well Walker, how do you decide what is false or true? are tongues wrong? go to some churches yes it is, others no. What about baptism v baptism of the Holy spirit? what about faith v works? what about arminiasim v calvinism...my goodness the list is endless.

 

Funnily enough, most of the people in here came from families or churches that had normal christian doctrines, that caused untold suffering into their lives. Sometimes those doctrines got mishaped and distorted to extreme situations. These people were going to normal christian churches. Ok now can you show me the purest true christian and purest true church?

Hi Kathlene,

 

First, the vast majority of churches agree on foundational teachings - who God is (His Nature and Character), who we humans are (our nature and character), how relationship is/was broken and how it is/was restored. Second, how to decide what is false or true - I think it makes sense to start with the Biblical text, understanding what the ancient writers were communicating. Taking an issue like baptism, we can know what it meant to the Jewish people of the time. We can know 1^st century Jews didn’t sprinkle water on a person’s head to baptize, for instance. We can see that there are no verses that say the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” (the empowering) was for a limited time and a specific group of people (as some churches teach). Various Christians develop theories and teachings on unessential doctrine - they start with the text and springboard from there. But does their resulting teaching work with every Biblical passage? Is it faithful to what the writers communicated? Wouldn’t this be important?

 

 

Sometimes I think the hardest challenge for humans is to keep balanced and not go to an extreme.