onequestion Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 [Edit] I was just asking how much you can resist once you believe and be forgiven. You can delete this post if you see this and want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I'll take a stab at this for you. But before I do I want to tell you that there is no such thing as sin and no one has or will go to hell. But I don't think that I will help you by trying to get you to abandon the Bible as I have (and for very good reasons). Rather, I think that what you are after is a theological answer to your question about whether you have committed the unpardonable sin. I will answer you within this framework. That is, I will answer you from a purely theological standpoint, assuming that the bible is true. And my answer is no, you have not committed nor can you commit the unpardonable sin. Only those who lived prior to Jesus' atonement for sin could possibly have committed the unpardonable sin. The unpardonable sin is found in three locations in the gospels. I will quote each for you below: 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.” Mark 3:28-29. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Mathew 12:31-32. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Luke 12:10. So, the unforgivable sin is only against the Holy Spirit and requires blasphemy. We could go into a long drawn out argument over what blasphemy is and how it could be committed only against the Holy Spirit. But we need not do this to answer your question. Rather, we need to understand the time in which Jesus said these words. Jesus was alive and walking the earth. He had not yet been crucified and resurrected. And that is an important piece of information to know. Because from a purely theological standpoint, at the time Jesus spoke these words there had been no atonement for sins. That atonement was with his crucifixion and his resurrection guaranteed eternal life. In other words, when Jesus spoke these words he had not yet died for all the sins of all people. So when he spoke these words, there was, from a theological standpoint, a sin that could not be forgiven absent the atoning death of Jesus - and that sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Once Jesus died as an atonement, then even that sin was covered by his blood (as Christians like to say). This explains why writers like Paul never wrote of an unpardonable sin. Paul wrote around the year 50 or 60 CE, long after Jesus' atoning death and so he was not dealing with sins that could not be forgiven, because since Jesus had already died as an atonement, all sins could be forgiven, even blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Read the following words of Paul: 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-26. Here Paul speaks of the power of Jesus' atoning death. And that power is the forgiveness of all sins, with no exceptions whatsoever. And that forgiveness is attained by faith in Jesus and in no other way, according to these scriptures. I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted February 15, 2011 Moderator Share Posted February 15, 2011 I hope this helps. It sure helped me! Thanks so much Overcame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 [Edit] I was just asking how much you can resist once you believe and be forgiven. You can delete this post if you see this and want to. Onequestion, please understand that what I am about to say is meant in a respectful way. I am not chastising you. But if you post a question expecting someone to take the time to try to provide a well-reasoned response, then please do not delete the original post. There may be others who have the same question who could benefit from the answers. By your having deleted the original post, others will not be able to put the answers in context and thus not understand them. So, please, if you don't want an answer, then don't post. But if you do post a question, then leave the post in place for others to benefit. Respectfully and politely, Overcame Faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onequestion Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 [Edit] I was just asking how much you can resist once you believe and be forgiven. You can delete this post if you see this and want to. Onequestion, please understand that what I am about to say is meant in a respectful way. I am not chastising you. But if you post a question expecting someone to take the time to try to provide a well-reasoned response, then please do not delete the original post. There may be others who have the same question who could benefit from the answers. By your having deleted the original post, others will not be able to put the answers in context and thus not understand them. So, please, if you don't want an answer, then don't post. But if you do post a question, then leave the post in place for others to benefit. Respectfully and politely, Overcame Faith Thanks for these answers, and I totally understand, and I'm sorry about that habit. The thing is, there are a lot of people who, when the subject of blasphemy is brought up, really have a field day with saying all sorts of blasphemous stuff, which of course causes me to think that I've enticed them to do that and am therefore committing it myself. And so, really, I should just stop posting anything along those lines. I wish I could just erase this thread, or at least references to what I said in the original post. I thought I had deleted it before anyone was going to reply, so now I'm kind of wringing my hands and thinking, "I really hope no one comes on this thread and brashly starts being irreverant, because I'll chastise myself for not begging that the whole post be removed before someone does." In other words, like I had a chance to ask for it to just be deleted (which I guess I'm asking), or at least specific references to what I was asking. I know that it's really inconsiderate of people's time and energy, and I think if anything, I'll just stick to using internet sources that are already typed up, or else just ask questions in a situation where I feel like I'm not possibly doing damage. But yeah, if I ever post another one I'll just phrase it right the first time and leave it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 [Edit] I was just asking how much you can resist once you believe and be forgiven. You can delete this post if you see this and want to. Onequestion, please understand that what I am about to say is meant in a respectful way. I am not chastising you. But if you post a question expecting someone to take the time to try to provide a well-reasoned response, then please do not delete the original post. There may be others who have the same question who could benefit from the answers. By your having deleted the original post, others will not be able to put the answers in context and thus not understand them. So, please, if you don't want an answer, then don't post. But if you do post a question, then leave the post in place for others to benefit. Respectfully and politely, Overcame Faith Thanks for these answers, and I totally understand, and I'm sorry about that habit. The thing is, there are a lot of people who, when the subject of blasphemy is brought up, really have a field day with saying all sorts of blasphemous stuff, which of course causes me to think that I've enticed them to do that and am therefore committing it myself. And so, really, I should just stop posting anything along those lines. I wish I could just erase this thread, or at least references to what I said in the original post. I thought I had deleted it before anyone was going to reply, so now I'm kind of wringing my hands and thinking, "I really hope no one comes on this thread and brashly starts being irreverant, because I'll chastise myself for not begging that the whole post be removed before someone does." In other words, like I had a chance to ask for it to just be deleted (which I guess I'm asking), or at least specific references to what I was asking. I know that it's really inconsiderate of people's time and energy, and I think if anything, I'll just stick to using internet sources that are already typed up, or else just ask questions in a situation where I feel like I'm not possibly doing damage. But yeah, if I ever post another one I'll just phrase it right the first time and leave it up. Read what you said above very carefully and think about the corner you are painting yourself in. Your thinking now forbids you to even ask questions for fear that someone else may commit a sin for which you will somehow be responsible. Really think about this, Onequestion. Really think hard about it and if you come to understand it, you may benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onequestion Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Here Paul speaks of the power of Jesus' atoning death. And that power is the forgiveness of all sins, with no exceptions whatsoever. And that forgiveness is attained by faith in Jesus and in no other way, according to these scriptures. I hope this helps. Thanks, I appreciate that. And in a way it helps, but then with my mind it's like I zeroed in on, "25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—", and I thought, "Uh oh, so that means that I'm only forgiven for sins before salvation, and that woman with the article about adultery was right?" And yeah, I know that my anxiety-ridden views have made me afraid to ask certain questions; that's part of my mental torture and isolation right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Here Paul speaks of the power of Jesus' atoning death. And that power is the forgiveness of all sins, with no exceptions whatsoever. And that forgiveness is attained by faith in Jesus and in no other way, according to these scriptures. I hope this helps. Thanks, I appreciate that. And in a way it helps, but then with my mind it's like I zeroed in on, "25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—", and I thought, "Uh oh, so that means that I'm only forgiven for sins before salvation, and that woman with the article about adultery was right?" And yeah, I know that my anxiety-ridden views have made me afraid to ask certain questions; that's part of my mental torture and isolation right now. Jesus' death wouldn't be much of an atonement if your understanding as reflected above were correct. That would mean that you only have one shot at forgiveness and anything done thereafter is not forgivable. That would mean that the unforgivable sin is any sin, no matter how slight, committed after one once received the saving grace of Jesus. So you have now expanded the definition of unforgivable sin beyond all reasonable measure and, if you were correct, every person on earth who doesn't die immediately after being saved is doomed to hell since all will sin their entire lives. That makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Onequestion.... You are not your borther's keeper. You are only responsible for yourself. Ask any question you want, it is the only way to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onequestion Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 That would mean that you only have one shot at forgiveness and anything done thereafter is not forgivable. Thanks for that, Stryper. And you underestimate my anxiety-driven mind's ammo, Overcame Faith! "16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17) You know, I have a feeling that if I just immersed myself in the Bible I would probably stop asking stuff on here, because even the things like what I'm posting don't necessarily have me convinced that I'm rightly dividing everything. It's just that there's always uncertainty when you're prone to see things through an obsessive lens, and don't yet have all of the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 That would mean that you only have one shot at forgiveness and anything done thereafter is not forgivable. But you underestimate my anxiety-driven mind's ammo, Overcame Faith! Well, I must say that I like your sense of humor. I'm glad that is intact and functioning well for you. Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 That would mean that you only have one shot at forgiveness and anything done thereafter is not forgivable. Thanks for that, Stryper. And you underestimate my anxiety-driven mind's ammo, Overcame Faith! "16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17) You know, I have a feeling that if I just immersed myself in the Bible I would probably stop asking stuff on here, because even the things like what I'm posting don't necessarily have me convinced that I'm rightly dividing everything. It's just that there's always uncertainty when you're prone to see things through an obsessive lens, and don't yet have all of the information. If you immerse yourself in the bible as you have suggested, then I can guarantee you that your confusion will be raised to the nth degree. It is through biblical immersion that there are now over 30,000 different Christian denominations which disagree with one another over doctrinal issues. Theologians who receive their ThD can't agree among themselves, and I know of no group of people who have immersed themselves more in the minutia of the Bible. Immersion in the Bible is not the answer to your problem, Onequestion. That approach will compound your problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onequestion Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Yeah, but the overwhelming majority do agree on things like Jesus being God, people being forgivable, that one needs faith, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Yeah, but the overwhelming majority do agree on things like Jesus being God, people being forgivable, that one needs faith, etc. Don't be so sure of that. Do you understand Calvinism? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 You want to immerse yourself in the scriptures? Here, read this and see how much disagreement there is among major denominations. http://www.sbclife.org/articles/2006/04/sla8.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Yeah, but the overwhelming majority do agree on things like Jesus being God, people being forgivable, that one needs faith, etc. No, actually they diversely disagree on almost everything jesus allegedly said, what constitutes sin, what's god's traits and very nature is, and how we are to 'obey" this disparate description. If you ever allow yourself to view the Big Book of Jewish Fairy Tales with a critical eye, it will start to become clear. Nothing is perfect. Why should the wholly babble be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onequestion Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Do you understand Calvinism? Yeah, and I used to have what I thought was a moral problem with it until I realized that evil was punished and God had mercy on people who didn't deserve it so that they could be saved. Basically, it only affirms God's purity to me that even one sin is enough to damn someone forever (since sin is just disobeying God which ultimately hurts other humans). I realized (intellectually, not emotionally at first, maybe like a criminal who doesn't understand why everyone hates them, or why they are how they are) that the Creator has to have a better morality than me, and that it would be logically impossible for me to judge, as the created, the Master of morality. I lean towards predestination theologically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Do you understand Calvinism? Yeah, and I used to have what I thought was a moral problem with it until I realized that evil was punished and God had mercy on people who didn't deserve it so that they could be saved. Basically, it only affirms God's purity to me that even one sin is enough to damn someone forever (since sin is just disobeying God which ultimately hurts other humans). I realized (intellectually, not emotionally at first, maybe like a criminal who doesn't understand why everyone hates them, or why they are how they are) that the Creator has to have a better morality than me, and that it would be logically impossible for me to judge, as the created, the Master of morality. I lean towards predestination theologically. Has to have a better morality, how so, ever read greek mythology. Its not a guarantee by any means if your talking about a "God." If the god of the bible as a better morality then you, then evidence should show that the bible god's moral actions are better. As far as I can see it fails on both evidence and logical reasoning. If anything the god of the bibles morality has been shown time and time again to be harmful, even in the most base ways. Impossible, ehhh, not not bury your head in the sand. So are we supposed to have faith that the moral advice of the bible is better for us. That is quite alot like buying a used car without testing it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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