Molding Victims?

[Mad_Gerbil]

MG, it sounds like YOU have some personal demons to deal with, too!  This last post sounded very MUCH like an Ex-C eximony!  It's no wonder you believe that ALL Ex-Cers were hurt by the church.  YOU have been hurt too!

 

Tell me: If church life has sucked so badly for you (don't try and pretend now that it didn't), why do you deny some of OUR pain?  Acting as if we aren't justified in being angry with Christianity?

 

Face facts, we're better off without your silly religion and your phoney "god".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not denying your pain.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times -- you should be angry and the pain is legitimate.

 

I don't think anyone here is crazy at all -- my stars, I've cussed out people face to face over the pain I went through. Screaming, yelling, ranting for 45 solid minutes to people who looked at me like at any moment I might transform into a werewolf or something.

 

This is part of my frustration with being here -- so many think I don't understand when in fact I've got the exact same scars in regard to what I call Spiritual Abuse. I prefer to call it spiritual rape, but it is easy to for people to think I'm discounting physical rape when I'm not.

 

I realize some people here cuss me out because I'm a stand in for the minister they don't have the courage to call and yell at face to face. I don't mind a bit -- cuss away -- having the need to do that doesn't make you weak or stupid -- it just means you respond to pain and crushing disappointment and betrayal like everyone else on the planet has been doing since time began.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Nice dance. I never brought up any of that, I'm talking about Witnesses, their beliefs and such. Not wasting a life or anything else.

 

You're right about a wasted life on that regard though (so why exactly are you still running on that treadmill?), but it's a completely separate issue altogether. If you can't separate the one issue from the other, I think I see the first of your problems.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You cannot seperate the beliefs of the JW's from the carnage those beliefs create.

 

If I might be so bold: You didn't leave the JW's because you failed -- you left because you did it all and it killed you in the process -- because that carnage is the result of that kind of abuse. Their belief system is the posion, and the carnage is the result.

 

Their beliefs are toxic mind rot that places people on a treadmill that keeps turning up the speed until the victim dies of exhaustion. The resulting death is tired directly to the 'carrot on a stick' approach to G_d.

 

Unless you can demonstrate that the 'belief system' is somehow seperate from the 'carnage' then I'll say they are two sides of the same coin -- unless I completely misunderstood you.

[nirrti]

Gosh! I knew that religion could take away someone's humanity. My father was an asshole JW who kicked me out and disowned me because I wouldn't stop going to a mainstream church. But one thing about him, he nor the other folks at the kindom hall never advocated anyone being put through a slow, painfull death by being repeatedly busted upside the head with big rocks.

 

Oh, by the way, anyone who seriously needs to ask why someone thinks stoning people is harsh is obviously in need of help if their concience is that lacking and is a cold-blooded mother f**ka.

[Checkmate]

So why do you remain a Christian? You must believe the "good" outweighs the "bad", or something like that?

 

For the record: I don't personally know about "pain" at the hands of the church. I know about controlling pastors and fake "love", but other than this, I wasn't "hurt". I quit because none of it made sense. I was studying to become a pastor for my own home church when I hung up my bible. It all logically fell apart. This is why I am perplexed when people have even MORE compelling reasons (i.e. "hurts") to leave and yet you don't.

 

I confess that I do not understand why you remain.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Oh, by the way, anyone who seriously asks why someone thinks stoning people is harsh is obviously in need of help if their concience is that lacking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I offered the question up as a think piece.

I'm throwing some ideas out on it for fun.

 

Join in if you'd like.

[nirrti]

I offered the question up as a think piece.

I'm throwing some ideas out on it for fun.

 

Join in if you'd like.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Um, I think you did mean what you said so don't go back-peddling now. You certainly were defending it as such. Maybe at this point you're in such denial you don't even know, yourself.

[Mad_Gerbil]

So why do you remain a Christian?  You must believe the "good" outweighs the "bad", or something like that?

 

I remain a Christian because intead of thinking I had to earn the carrot I just let Jesus grab it for me. Done deal. I know that is a trite way to say it but for me the goal of jumping through the hoops was to get to a relationship -- I quit jumping and realized I was already there -- that the relationship was free.

 

The stage I'm at now is wondering if I want the relationship now that it is free. You see, much of my effort in the past, although part of my abuse also involved me abusing other people for the sake of my ego.

 

In short:

1: The relationship is free -- that is the first step.

2: The relationship doesn't serve my ego -- it doesn't allow me to judge others, or feel self-rigtheous, or do anything other than be a servant -- so now I'm at the stage of asking myself if that is something I want and it goes both ways.

 

That is why I've said recently on messageboards things like "Ya know, I really don't care about the victims of hurricane Kartina" because, truth be told, I don't because my actions clearly show I don't despite what my lips are saying. I don't wanna be a fraud anymore.

 

Go see the thread where I talk with CurtDude and tell him I don't care what decision he makes regarding homosexuality. I honest to G_d don't care. I won't pretend I care anymore -- that is part of the reason why I seem so cold to Cerise and Becca -- I'm not going to stumble over myself telling them how sorry I am about their abuse because, although I'd rather it didn't happen, it isn't gonna keep me up at night if they are in pain.

 

Does that sound heartless? I don't mean to be. It's just that I'm tired of little sorrowful emoticons and a 10 second note saying "sorry you were abused" passing for real compassion. It isn't compassion, it is just social claptrap. If I really cared I'd be down at a local rape center moping floors and cleaning toliets just to help out.

 

I want action to line up with my words.

I hate hypocrisy.

 

So I'm thinking through things and I'll likely side heavily with the relationship but it's a bummer trying to get past the ego thing. It really tears me up.

 

For the record: I don't personally know about "pain" at the hands of the church.  I know about controlling pastors and fake "love", but other than this, I wasn't "hurt".  I quit because none of it made sense.  I was studying to become a pastor for my own home church when I hung up my bible.  It all logically fell apart.  This is why I am perplexed when people have even MORE compelling reasons (i.e. "hurts") to leave and yet you don't.

 

That would be an interesting experience.

I didn't approach it that way at all -- I might be too lazy to do that.

 

I confess that I do not understand why you remain. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I find the same confusion concerning why you left.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Um, I think you did mean what you said so don't go back-peddling now.  You certainly were defending it as such.  Maybe at this point you're in such denial you don't even know, yourself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've not denied the legitimacy of the practice for those people at that place and time. You'll find no back peddling there.

 

I'm interested in discussing why we find it repulsive today since that interests me more at this point.

[Mad_Gerbil]

In my post 2 up I'd appeciate it if a mod would fix my quote tags.

I don't have the ability to edit posts.

 

 

 

(Done. Hans)

[Checkmate]

..............

I want action to line up with my words.

I hate hypocrisy.

 

So I'm thinking through things and I'll likely side heavily with the relationship but it's a bummer trying to get past the ego thing.  It really tears me up.

I find the same confusion concerning why you left. 

MG, you aren't confused. Trust me. You don't know it now, but I can tell. YOU'RE WALKING IN MY PRECISE FOOTSTEPS!

 

(I KNEW you looked familiar.)

 

Disgust leads to inspection. HONEST inspection. Been there, done that, burnt the Christian T-shirt.

 

Can I recommend ONE web site for you to examine? www.scrollpublishing.com

 

The site is run by David Bercot (Ber-so). Former JW, Anglican priest, evangelical Christian and today, Mennonite. He's VERY big into Early Christianity. His honest research material helped free me from Christianity. (NOT his intent, but that's what effect the truth had on me!)

 

I highly recommend his book "Will the Real Hereitcs Please Stand Up". His open and honest examination of Christianity is refreshing. He might even strengthen YOUR faith. You never know.

 

What have you got to lose?

[LadyFeline]

Why do we consider stoning harsh?

 

You're an idiot if you even have to ask.

 

Get off your ass, go straight to your local public library, and ask them if they have this book: The Stoning of Soraya M. If they don't have it, then have them borrow it from a library that does, since you very obviously need to read it.

 

A true story, recounted by Soraya's aunt - it's about Muslims, but it's a "modern-day" story (taking place, IIRC, in the 60s or 70s) and, seeing as how they're following the "Biblical" law of "stone all adulterers", it fits (Soraya, by the way, was innocent of all adultery. That didn't stop her "husband" from ordering her execution, however.) It's nauseatingly graphic, especially when the author is describing her death scene, but I think you could use a little "shock".

 

Anyone - ANYONE who thinks that another human being should die in this manner is a disgusting, heartless thing that's lower than even animals. If you can read this book, and still wonder why "stoning is harsh", then you don't deserve to call yourself human. Fuck, you don't deserve to be called human even if you don't read this book, and still advocate or wonder about stoning...

[Mad_Gerbil]

Interesting Grinch.

I've book marked it.

 

I read FF Bruce on the Canon of Scripture and I found it very, very interesting. His candor on some points was very refreshing to say the least. I love that kind of stuff.

[MQTA]

here's some good ones too

 

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/central.html

 

http://www.halexandria.org

 

and the one in my sig

[crazy-tiger]

You cannot seperate the beliefs of the JW's from the carnage those beliefs create.

 

If I might be so bold: You didn't leave the JW's because you failed -- you left because you did it all and it killed you in the process -- because that carnage is the result of that kind of abuse.  Their belief system is the posion, and the carnage is the result.

 

Their beliefs are toxic mind rot that places people on a treadmill that keeps turning up the speed until the victim dies of exhaustion.  The resulting death is tired directly to the 'carrot on a stick' approach to G_d.

 

Unless you can demonstrate that the 'belief system' is somehow seperate from the 'carnage' then I'll say they are two sides of the same coin -- unless I completely misunderstood you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just replace JW with Christian, and you've got the point of view of many of us...

 

 

 

 

Something for you to think about...

[Mad_Gerbil]

You're an idiot if you even have to ask.

 

LadyFeline:

 

I don't mean 'harsh' from the perspective of is it brutal in and of itself, but rather harsh from the perspective of 'does the punishment fit the crime'. In regard to the account you mention -- was the man stoned as well?

 

Cracks me up how adultery always seems to be about the woman -- last I knew it took two to tangle.

 

BTW, when it comes to executions I think stoning has a certain element that we are overlooking that might be interesting to explore in that the community stones a person -- the jury does the execution.

 

Compare that with the method we use today where a death sentence is passed and the jury walks outta the room while some anonymous fellow gets paid to carry out the dirty work. I wonder how many blacks would find themselves on death row if the comfortable bigoted rich gal that help but him there actually had to carry out the sentence instead of killing someone in the sanitized way we do today?

 

I think there are some intersting things to consider here -- and if you'd kindly step past trying to paint me as some radical neocon trying to reinstate a theocracy in this country we might be able to have an interesting conversation.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Just replace JW with Christian, and you've got the point of view of many of us...

Something for you to think about...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly.

 

Any in many instance you'd be dead on because JWs aren't the only ones that use the carrot on a stick approach.

 

Which is why I say you should be angry about that -- ticks me off too.

[crazy-tiger]

I don't mean 'harsh' from the perspective of is it brutal in and of itself, but rather harsh from the perspective of 'does the punishment fit the crime'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You'll find that the answer is the same...

[crazy-tiger]

Exactly.

 

Any in many instance you'd be dead on because JWs aren't the only ones that use the carrot on a stick approach.

 

Which is why I say you should be angry about that -- ticks me off too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, I AM angry about it...

 

In fact, I'm angry about any aspect of a belief that leads to any form of abuse.

[LadyFeline]

LadyFeline:

 

I don't mean 'harsh' from the perspective of is it brutal in and of itself, but rather harsh from the perspective of 'does the punishment fit the crime'.  In regard to the account you mention -- was the man stoned as well?

 

No. Because it was her husband who ordered the stoning, claiming that she had cheated on him.

 

Why the fuck am I tellign you? Get off your goddamned computer and go crack open the bloody book yourself. You might actually learn something.

[Alice]

Cracks me up how adultery always seems to be about the woman -- last I knew it took two to tangle.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Oh dear, oh dear ... you silly chump, that's because the punishments are sexist!

 

It's not a punishment for the act of extra marital sex ~ it's a punishment for cuckolding a man.

 

If a man rapes an unmarried woman according to biblical law ... he must marry her as his punishment. No stoning for the man in this instance.

 

Only when a rapist or a lover sullies another man's property is the act punishable by death. (Can you see how that undermines the seriousness of 'rape' )

 

If you are saying that it is our perception of the seriousness of extra marital sex that has resulted in death by stoning being considered too harsh a punishment ~ are you saying Jesus was also affected thus? You seem to be suggesting something that would mean Jesus got it wrong.

 

I'm interested in the fact that in this thread you've been talking about your lack of interest and compassion for other people and their situations ... why the big interest in perserving the 'family unit' as you see it then? Why are you bothered about whether or not other people commit adultery? If you don't care about those whose lives were blown away by Katrina, why be bothered about those whose lives are swept into turmoil by marriage break up?

 

And if it is just a question because you are interested in preserving your own family unit do you think that your wife's faithfulness is such a big deal that you would have her stoned to death if she made love to someone else?

 

And your daughters ~ is sex such a big deal that you would think an honour killing called for if they had sex outside of marriage?

 

What is it about sex MG that makes you think engaging in consensual sexual relationships outside of marriage should maybe be considered serious enough to be punishable by death?

 

(by the way ~ however abusive, revolting, violent a crime ... I am not in favour of violent punishment. Your comments about community involvement in punishmnet are interesting. I would not condone a punishment I would not be able to carry out myself and inflicting physical pain on another ~ is not something I would wish to become involved in or have someone else carry out on my behalf. For me its not that stoning is a punishment that no longer fits the 'crime' of adultery ~ stoning does not befit the punishement of any crime in a civilised society.)

[Onyx]

If you think stoning for adultery is okay depsite all the descriptions, here's a little something.

 

I know it's muslim but... this is relevant.

My opinion on Stoning?

 

YUK! A cruel punishment applied to adultery!

 

 

 

WARNING: GRAPHIC STUFF

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not for the squeamish

 

 

 

 

 

Are you ready?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm

[Vixentrox]

It's a wholesome biblical punshment too. Christians should love this.

[Fweethawt]

Incidently, the molesting of children is one thing that I think warrants the death penalty since it is almost always a serial crime.  The ease at which people can get away with it is shocking and these stupid cases where a person gets away with it to go on and do it another 100 times needs to stop.

 

I've got two young daughters.

Put the molestors in the ground and give a kid a break already.

 

Now, now, now, Gerbil...

 

According to your philosophy over in the other thread, this comment really does surprise me.

 

Why do you hate child molestors so much, Gerbil? According to your outlook, I figured that you would be inviting them into your house, in droves, in order to have-at-it with your daughters.

 

After all, just think of how much better of a person they'll be once they pull themselves through the anguish inflicted.

 

[Fweethawt]

WARNING: GRAPHIC STUFF

Not for the squeamish

Silly G., you read my mind! Err... umm... I got some vibes from your idea or somethin'.

 

I was going to post that very same link.

I watched that video a couple of weeks ago.

 

 

If my memory is correct, their hands are tied beneath the sheet. Then, they're burried in the ground up to their waist or shoulders (depending on the gender), and if they can untie themselves, free themselves from the sheet and the hole, and make it out of the circle of people throwing stones, they get to go free.

[LadyFeline]

Now, now, now, Gerbil...

 

According to your philosophy over in the other thread, this comment really does surprise me.

 

Why do you hate child molestors so much, Gerbil? According to your outlook, I figured that you would be inviting them into your house, in droves, in order to have-at-it with your daughters.

 

After all, just think of how much better of a person they'll be once they pull themselves through the anguish inflicted.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, see, Fwee, that line of thinking only applies to strangers. It would be utterly unthinkable for a good, God-ph34ring Christian to allow their own blood kin to suffer like that!