Molding Victims?

[Mad_Gerbil]

And I asked you whether or not you believe in eternal torture...can you please answer that question?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do you believe AIDS exists?

Do you believe cancer exists?

 

If you do, then you must be cruel.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And no, I don't believe eternal torture exists because eternal torture would serve no purpose -- however, I think it quite possible that people who deny G_d get to spend an eternity away from Him. For those in that condition, they'd have it no other way.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Actually, IMHO, any Sect of Christianity (not ALL BELIEVERS in even in those sects) that teaches eternal torture is more evil than the groups, i.e.; Jehovah Witnesses, Church of God, etc. that don't.  Anyone who thinks it is just to eternally torture someone for something as simple as unbelief to the extremes of genocide, murder, rape is in an EVIL sect of Christianity.  Eternal hell is a heartless, mean-spirited and cruel doctrine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Extremely poor reasoning.

 

If hell exists, then believing it does exist is just embracing reality.

If hell exists, denying it exists would be mere ignorance.

 

Likewise

 

If hell does not exist, then believing it does exist is mere ignorance.

If hell does not exist, then believing it does not is just embracing reality.

 

A person isn't evil simply for acknowledging the truth of a situation -- that is silly, no matter how harsh the truth may be.

[Guest Guest]

Do you believe AIDS exists?

Do you believe cancer exists?

 

If you do, then you must be cruel.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

MG, your analogy makes no sense. Only a cruel and evil god would send people to eternal torture, that was my point, and I choose not to worship such a monster. I also choose not to love, honor and worship the cruel, evil and monstrous deity of the Old Testament either....I'm simply to good and loving to worship such a vile and violent man-made deity, such a deity, if it does exist, is not worthy of love or worship.

[Mad_Gerbil]

*stuff*

 

If you don't like it, Feline, then don't believe it.

The G_d of the Bible isn't good enough for you -- so do what you will.

[Mad_Gerbil]

MG, your analogy makes no sense.  Only a cruel and evil god would send people to eternal torture, that was my point, and I choose not to worship such a monster.  I also choose not to love, honor and worship the cruel, evil and monstrous deity of the Old Testament either....I'm simply to good and loving to worship such a vile and violent man-made deity, such a deity, if it does exist, is not worthy of love or worship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Such is your choice.

I'm not telling you that you must worship this G_d.

[Mad_Gerbil]

I didn't say the "person" was evil, I did no differently than you did to the JW's...it is the ORGANIZATION that is evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Serenity, if you want to believe that your grasp of the eternal attributes of G_d -- and the depths and heights of morals and immorality are so perfectly understood by you that you can declare G_d a fraud and dismiss him than by all means do so.

 

You've come to the conclusion that Hell, or anyone what believes such a place exists.

 

Good for you.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Yet, should your daughters ever suffer the violation of being raped, you would never dare use that whole "The suffering is good for you, it helps you mature and builds character. You'll learn from it and be a better person." crap schpiel.

 

Because, you know, that's cruel and insensitive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I would comfort them (and learn about the trauma, of course) and as soon as possible begin to work at getting them to draw strength from the event. They'd find that strength in the same place I've always found it.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Then why are you here?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I enjoy discussing these things with apostates.

 

Despite what you may suppose, I've learned some interesting things here because ya'll aint afraid to challenge me on what I believe. As harsh as it sounds, I really don't care if you go to hell or not. Granted, I'd rather you not but I don't know you from Adam -- your eternal destiny doesn't keep me up at night.

 

And yes that is harsh -- but I'm at that point in my thinking right now and I'm not gonna give you a line of BS about where I'm at. I want authenticity and clarity in my life.

 

In large part that is why I didn't apologize to Becca and Cerise. First, I didn't think I did anything wrong, and secondly, I hate the goo-goo over the internet pretend *Hugz* like anyone could really care about someone they've never met. Like me apologizing to a rape victim is gonna help them in anyway. I bet it would be more therapeutic to let them kick the poopie outta their attackers.

 

I'm getting frustrated here because I try to have an honest discussion and all I get is the same crap over and over again. I have to wade through accusations of condoning rape, being insenstive and handling everyone elses baggage when all I want to do is have a decent conversation.

 

I think I've been pretty damn honest here and instead of talking about what I've said I'll be accused of clubbing baby seals or some other off the wall stuff.

 

Sheesh.

[crazy-tiger]

I would comfort them (and learn about the trauma, of course) and as soon as possible begin to work at getting them to draw strength from the event.  They'd find that strength in the same place I've always found it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whether you intend it or not, the underlying message there is that they should be glad they got raped since it's made them stronger...

 

 

I just hope that they'd find the strength to survive the punishment that your belief would inflict on them.

 

Unless you wouldn't obey your God?

[Mad_Gerbil]

Whether you intend it or not, the underlying message there is that they should be glad they got raped since it's made them stronger...

I just hope that they'd find the strength to survive the punishment that your belief would inflict on them.

 

Unless you wouldn't obey your God?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Utter nonsense.

I would never even hint that they should be glad they got raped.

 

You obviously don't have kids.

[LadyFeline]

If you don't like it, Feline, then don't believe it.

The G_d of the Bible isn't good enough for you -- so do what you will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It doesn't say much about you, that you can look at those verses and still consider your "God" any form of "just" or "good".

[Mad_Gerbil]

It doesn't say much about you, that you can look at those verses and still consider your "God" any form of "just" or "good".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've looked into the apologetics for those verses and I'm satisfied that they aren't as harsh as what you make them out to be -- however, I will admit that even with the best apologetic they do rub modern thinking the wrong way.

 

I think if you look at some modern practices in regard to those situations you'll find that we've plenty going on in the here and now that would disgust the ancients.

 

Tell an ancient man that a guy who raped his wife gets 5-8 years in a prison and that his tax money will pay to feed and clothes the rapist while piping in cabel TV. I'm sure that ancient man would wonder what kind of insanity we have going on in this modern world.

 

Tell an ancient man that a guy can defile his daughter, but because she was drunk at the time it's a wash.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

Now admittedly, there is a difference -- the Bible comes from G_d. However, is your disgust really disgust based on a well thought out view of the situation or have you just been trained to see these verses in the worst possible light while not finding modern practice offensive because you've been trained to accept modern practices.

 

Again, your decision is your own -- I just think it is a wee bit more complicated than what you are making it out to be.

[crazy-tiger]

In large part that is why I didn't apologize to Becca and Cerise.  First, I didn't think I did anything wrong, and secondly, I hate the goo-goo over the internet pretend *Hugz* like anyone could really care about someone they've never met.  Like me apologizing to a rape victim is gonna help them in anyway.  I bet it would be more therapeutic to let them kick the poopie outta their attackers.

Whether you think you did anything wrong or not, you belittled what they went through and what they've achieved since...

 

That was wrong, and it does damage to them. (I know what I'm talking about... someone did that to me, and the effects are devastating)

When you did that, you effectively told them that they'd got everything wrong and that what happened was a blessing in disguise. (yes, some people say that too...)

 

The most theraputic thing that could have been done in my case would have been for my attacker to admit they'd done wrong and appologise... Due to your attitude and what you said, (and the way you said it... most of us managed to get the same message, so I wouldn't say it was us mis-reading it) you have helped to continue the pain from the events in question, and as such, are also an attacker.

 

Saying that they should gain strength from something like that is the worst thing you can do if the person is NOT READY TO GAIN STRENGTH FROM IT!

NEVER try to jolly them along into gaining strength... until they have rebuilt their lives/minds enough to do that themselves, any attempt to do so just rips the scab off the scar and it HURTS!

I'm getting frustrated here because I try to have an honest discussion and all I get is the same crap over and over again.  I have to wade through accusations of condoning rape, being insenstive and handling everyone elses baggage when all I want to do is have a decent conversation.

You could have had a decent conversation if you'd realised what you were doing wrong...

 

The fact that you'd been told to stop, that you'd been told that you were making it worse, seems to have been missed by you... you've been too busy trying to tell us that you were doing nothing wrong.

 

 

Here's an example of what you did... Someone's just broken their leg, and you've come skipping up to them and said "something like that happened to me, and look what I can do now" and dancing in front of them...

 

Dunno about you, but that's damn insensitive and it's close to what you've been doing. (close, but not as bad...)

I think I've been pretty damn honest here and instead of talking about what I've said I'll be accused of clubbing baby seals or some other off the wall stuff.

 

Sheesh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep... you've shown that you honestly don't know how to deal with people who've gone through stuff like that and still have "open" scars from it...

 

 

Oh, just so you know... it's been 22 years for me now, and the entire topic is still "tender" for me. The scars do not heal fast, if they ever truely do, and something like this can undo all the progress I've made in that time.

 

Just remember for next time, (if there is a next time) whether you think you've done wrong or not, drop the damn subject!

 

 

 

 

 

P.s. Appologies if I've been coming across as especially harsh recently, but I guess you can see what's caused it...

[crazy-tiger]

Utter nonsense.

I would never even hint that they should be glad they got raped.

 

You obviously don't have kids.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right, I don't...

 

What I do have is the experience of being "helped" to gain strength from being sexually abused.

 

 

The underlying message then, and the one I got now, was that it was good that it happened...

[Mad_Gerbil]

Okay, see, that is the main difference between you and I.  I laid awake at night worried sick about family, friends and starngers suffering in eternal torment.  Good for you, what a great accomplishment, that you could care less whether or not people go to hell or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

One would read your signature quotes and find it hard to believe you worry much about heaven or hell. If you do worry about it, I wish you the very best on your journey to peace on the subject.

 

As for me, I didn't claim my state was an accomplishment - I'm in the wrong to some degree.

[Mad_Gerbil]

You're right, I don't...

 

What I do have is the experience of being "helped" to gain strength from being sexually abused.

The underlying message then, and the one I got now, was that it was good that it happened...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

And the distinction I'm trying to make is that there is a difference between something being good that it happened and learning to find something valuable in what happened.

 

Abuse is never 'good that it happened'.

 

I've also admitted that I'm not an abuse victim -- so it is beyond me what one might be able to make of that situation. I must confess I was speaking in very general terms and I invite you to not take everything I say and immediately apply it to your situation.

[Mad_Gerbil]

P.s. Appologies if I've been coming across as especially harsh recently, but I guess you can see what's caused it...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't blame anyone for being harsh if they thought I was trying to tell them that I was glad they were abused -- or that they should be glad they were abused.

 

Sheesh.

[crazy-tiger]

And the distinction I'm trying to make is that there is a difference between something being good that it happened and learning to find something valuable in what happened.

 

Abuse is never 'good that it happened'.

 

I've also admitted that I'm not an abuse victim -- so it is beyond me what one might be able to make of that situation.  I must confess I was speaking in very general terms and I invite you to not take everything I say and immediately apply it to your situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point I tried to make, and it looks like you missed it, is that someone coming along and trying to "help" them find something valuable from it before they are ready to do that is just going to make things worse rather than better...

 

The way you came across is as someone who wanted to help Becca gain something valuable from her abuse...

Was she ready for that? I'd say not.

 

 

You've cocked-up something chronic, even though you were just trying to help... Accept that you got it wrong, accept that you could have done better, accept that you NOW know better than to try that again, and possibly even appologise for trying to "force" someone to do what they were not ready for.

[crazy-tiger]

I don't blame anyone for being harsh if they thought I was trying to tell them that I was glad they were abused -- or that they should be glad they were abused.

 

Sheesh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For fucks sake... will you read what I posted and think about what you're saying?

 

 

 

:edit: Given the time stamps on your posts, you didn't have time to read my post properly...

Go back and read it this time.

[LadyFeline]

I don't think Gerbil's interested in reading our posts, CT. I think he's interested in skimming them, and making asusmptions based on what little he gleans from doing so.

 

Now admittedly, there is a difference -- the Bible comes from G_d. However, is your disgust really disgust based on a well thought out view of the situation or have you just been trained to see these verses in the worst possible light while not finding modern practice offensive because you've been trained to accept modern practices.

 

Again, your decision is your own -- I just think it is a wee bit more complicated than what you are making it out to be.

 

"Trained"? Excuse me? I'm not a fucking dog, you moron. I'm quite capable of drawing my own conclusions.

 

OF FUCKING COURSE I FIND THOSE "ANCIENT" PRACTICES OFFENSIVE, AND FIND MODERN PRACTICES BETTER. BECAUSE THE MODERN PRACTICES DON'T DEMONIZE THE VICTIM.

 

...Never mind. You're so fucking deluded that even trying to reason with you is a waste of time. You go on thinking that rape is a blessing in disguise and that the old ways are better. I truly pity your daughters.

[Checkmate]

....................

Despite what you may suppose, I've learned some interesting things here because ya'll aint afraid to challenge me on what I believe.  As harsh as it sounds, I really don't care if you go to hell or not.  Granted, I'd rather you not but I don't know you from Adam -- your eternal destiny doesn't keep me up at night.

 

And yes that is harsh -- but I'm at that point in my thinking right now and I'm not gonna give you a line of BS about where I'm at.  I want authenticity and clarity in my life.

......................

MG, I'm sorry, but this one statement makes you about the sorriest excuse for a "Christian" I have ever heard of. (And just when I was about to give you credit for having some sense.)

 

Evangelist Ray Comfort received a letter of rebuke from an atheist. I'd like to reprint it for you to read.

 

"You are really convinced that you've got all the answers. You've really got yourself tricked into believing that you're 100% right. Well, let me tell you just one thing. Do you consider yourself to be compassionate of other humans? If you're right, as you say you are, and you believe that [sinners burn in hell for eternity for simply rejecting Jesus], then how can you sleep at night? When you speak with me, you are speaking with someone who you believe is walking directly into eternal damnation, into an endless onslaught of horrendous pain which your 'loving' god created, yet you stand by and do nothing.

 

If you believed one bit that thousands every day were falling into an eternal and unchangeable [and horrendous] fate, you should be running the streets mad with rage at their blindness. That's equivalent to standing on a street corner and watching every person that passes you walk blindly directly into the path of a bus and die, yet you stand idly by and do nothing. You're just twiddling your thumbs, happy in the knowledge that one day that 'walk' signal will shine your way across the road.

 

Think about it. Imagine the horrors Hell must have in store if the Bible is true. You're just going to allow that to happen and not care about saving anyone but yourself? If you're right then you're an uncaring, unemotional and purely selfish (expletive) that has no right to talk about subjects such as love and caring."

 

This is an excerpt from an e-mail sent to Evangelist Ray Comfort of Living Waters. [This e-mail can be found at http://www.repentamerica.com/letterfromateist.html]

Words [in brackets] are my addition.

 

The sad part of all this is that YOU brazenly confess to not give a damn about anyone, and yet you have the fucking gall to come to us to improve and challenge your faith?!?

 

Fuck you. I'm not interested in being your debate partner, nor your social experiment. I don't feel compelled to be your fucking subject upon which you can callously sharpen your fucktard apologetics skills or increase your bible knowledge. Fuck you. Go do your own fucking bible study homework. I'm not here to educate "Christians" on their own fucking faith!

 

You need to take your shit and shovel it on someone else's forum. Since you don't give a damn about any of us, why the fuck should I care about humoring you and your fucking needs or desires?

 

You want to "strengthen your faith"? Go to a Muslim Mosque and preach the good news to them. That'll strengthen you real quick!

 

Fucking dick.

 

 

I strongly suggest to the rest of my partners in apostasy that we all add Mr. "I-Don't-Give-A-Fuck-About-You" Gerbil to our respective IGNORE lists.

[The Silent One]

You're rather pathetic M_G.

 

I'm done with you.

[Mad_Gerbil]

The sad part of all this is that YOU brazenly confess to not give a damn about anyone, and yet you have the fucking gall to come to us to improve and challenge your faith?!?

 

Before a problem may be fixed, it must be identified.

I see my lack of concern as a problem.

 

Perhaps you'd prefer if I came in here and told you that I dearly love all of you and that Jesus loves you too and that if you came back you'd know nothing but the love of people around you and that I'd die for you if I could? Would you like that Grinch?

 

You cannot have it both ways.

 

You cannot call be out for being an egotistical bastard -- a blowhard and an arrogant self-righteous pig AND get all upset when I tell you the truth about myself warts and all. You either have to allow me to lie to you (HEY GUYS, I'M PERFECT) or tell you the truth (I'VE GOT UGLY THINGS ABOUT ME).

 

Which did you want again?

 

Time and time again I see posters here asking the question -- do Christians really care? Do they REALLY care? So I've asked myself the same question -- and for now (for me) the answer is NO. You got the answer you wanted -- the answer you knew was the case -- if you didn't like the answer then don't ask the question.

 

I'm willing to look my condition straight in the face.

I'm willing to discuss it with other people.

If you cannot handle that, ignore me - you'd be doing me a favor.

 

OR -- if you'd like I could slip the mask back on for your entertainment value.

 

Would you like me to play the role of a Catholic or a Protestant -- Jesus Freak or Theologian -- tell me what kind of Christian you can handle Grinch and I'll hide the truth again and do the little dance for you so you can throw your hotel room keys up onto the stage.

 

Sheesh.

[Mad_Gerbil]

You're rather pathetic M_G.

 

I'm done with you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's okay.

 

A question for you to answer, if you are so inclined:

When you were a JW Pastor did you really care about the people you were ministering to -- the people you talked to door to door -- or did you only think you cared -- did you only care because it bought you salvation?

[Mad_Gerbil]

I worried about it when I was a Christian (I was one for 30 years), now that I know Christianity is a lie, I no longer worry about it, hence past tense "laid".  :-)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, I thought you meant laid and is laid awake last night....

Wasn't making sense to me.