foolish girl Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 So I left my book out. Or my 10 yr old found it and got it out. “Some Mistakes of Moses”- Robert Ingersoll. My 12 yr old spotted it. Read the back cover and the first paragraph before I knew it. I picked up up from under his nose and said “I love you...”. So we have this conversation. He wants to read the book. I told him that I want to let him read it but I am not positive about how to handle the situation. I know- before you all jump down my throat that I should just let him read it. And I am feeling like I will. It is just, I know that once he does, he will change. And that will have some consequences within my marriage. On the other hand, it is not right to police a person's thoughts. If God is so mighty then a simple essay should not be able to undo him. Right? My marriage though.....stupid politics. So I told the kid “I am not saying no. I just need to think about it before I open up this door ( I have a few on the shelf that he may be interested in). So I opened the book to read the first paragraph. To see what he had ingested and oh! How ironic. It was like Ingersoll was frowning down at me (or my husband?) Here I will type for you the first page of the book. SOME MISTAKES OF MOSES. HE WHO ENDEAVORS TO CONTROL THE MIND BY FORCE IS A TYRANT, AND HE WHO SUBMITS IS A SLAVE. I. I want to do what little I can to make my country truly free, to broaden the intellectual horizon of our people, to destroy the prejudices born of ignorance and fear, to do away with the blind worship of the ignoble past, with the idea that all of the great and good are dead, that the living are totally depraved, that all pleasures are sins, that sighs and groans alone are pleasing to God, that thought is dangerous, that intellectual courage is a crime, that cowardice is a virtue, that a certain belief is necessary to secure salvation, that to carry a cross in this world will give us a palm in the next, and that we must allow some priest to be the pilot of our souls. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Emphasis added. Those emboldened quotes and the one in caps at the beginning were like a slap in the face. It isn't the potential hissy-fit directed at me that I worry about. I can win any debate with him (though I can never secure his submission!)....it is the potential to have the kid thrust into the situation. Husband is LOOOoong winded and forceful when applying apologetics. He also has the judgementalness of God. You know it is ok, because the bible says it. So you can make the kid feel bad for questioning....make him fear hell...you know, for his own good. What do you guys think of all of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 23, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted February 23, 2011 I think it's an omen. Seriously, the entire world of ideas should be open to any child who is old enough and bright enough to be curious. Sorry you're stuck with a pain in the ass hubby but the kids come first, don't they? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 I think it's an omen. Seriously, the entire world of ideas should be open to any child who is old enough and bright enough to be curious. Sorry you're stuck with a pain in the ass hubby but the kids come first, don't they? Yes, Thank you. I coveted your response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 If it makes the husband feel any better, find a good christian author on the same subject and allow the kid the read that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 If it makes the husband feel any better, find a good christian author on the same subject and allow the kid the read that. A reasonable suggestion, but I don't know if I could bring myself to. Does it count that he goes to church every week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I'd agree with Valk with letting him read a book from each perspective. It'll help settle your husband down and your kid will get to see how weak the arguments are from the other side. If you can get him to read the book from only your perspective without WWIII then by all means do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Depending on the kid odds are they'll get bored part way through and quit. These religious books are kind of dull. Letting them read one by choice is one thing but telling them they have to read an opposite point of view if they want to read this particular book is another thing. What are the odds they'll want to be forced into that? I wouldn't. If they manage to make it through this book you offer them the choice to read an opposing point of view or talk about the book they just read is something else altogether. But, like most things, the adults make far more out of everything than this kid is likely thinking on the whole subject. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 Depending on the kid odds are they'll get bored part way through and quit. These religious books are kind of dull. Letting them read one by choice is one thing but telling them they have to read an opposite point of view if they want to read this particular book is another thing. What are the odds they'll want to be forced into that? I wouldn't. If they manage to make it through this book you offer them the choice to read an opposing point of view or talk about the book they just read is something else altogether. But, like most things, the adults make far more out of everything than this kid is likely thinking on the whole subject. mwc Hi mwc, I agree that he will not be inclined to finish a book from the other side. Dull dull dull. This particular book is short though, as books go. It is full of observations, questions and impertinence. It directly addresses a few stories that he has had pounded into his head, since he is young. The boy loves to read and he likes to talk about things. He is a brainiac. I feel certain that if I let him read it he will be an ex-christian when he is done, if he isn't already. Poor kid. He knows that I am in a tight spot here. It isn't fair for him to have to worry about that. What a freaking mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I would also challenge him probably in your shoes, if he really doesn't want to read a christian book on the same subject, play devils advocate and challenge him on the material, and see what he says. Or maybe, though this is probably less likely discuss it with your husband as well as the kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I agree that he will not be inclined to finish a book from the other side. Dull dull dull. This particular book is short though, as books go. It is full of observations, questions and impertinence. It directly addresses a few stories that he has had pounded into his head, since he is young. The boy loves to read and he likes to talk about things. He is a brainiac. I feel certain that if I let him read it he will be an ex-christian when he is done, if he isn't already. Poor kid. He knows that I am in a tight spot here. It isn't fair for him to have to worry about that. What a freaking mess. I guess what I was trying to say is that if he's interested in reading this one book it's less likely that he'll remain interested (assuming he remained interested at all...since I didn't know him) if he's suddenly presented with being forced to read a second book "just because" (and that "just because" is on account of some hangup he really doesn't care about but is really on the adults here). I do see your dilemma but even a very smart kid probably doesn't truly fathom how his reading a single book could truly ruin things in all of your lives depending on your hubby takes this (I imagine he'll see this as a case of "accidentally on purpose" if I'm thinking of the right guy). What you might want to do is just ask him what piqued his interest about the book and see if he has any immediate questions you might be able to answer without letting him read the book himself? That could be a way to gage things to see where you need to go with all this? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue elephant Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Just put the book back on the bookshelf. Child will probably find it for himself and read if he really wants to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 Just put the book back on the bookshelf. Child will probably find it for himself and read if he really wants to. Yeah. I have considered that. He is a good kid though, and he would not take one of my books without asking. Now that we have talked about it, he wouldn't pick it up unless I told him he could. When I was his age, I would have already taken it, hidden it and read half of it! lol "I don't know where it went mom....REALLY!" *sigh* Anyway, aT very least the ideas are getting in through the periphery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 I guess what I was trying to say is that if he's interested in reading this one book it's less likely that he'll remain interested (assuming he remained interested at all...since I didn't know him) if he's suddenly presented with being forced to read a second book "just because" (and that "just because" is on account of some hangup he really doesn't care about but is really on the adults here). I do see your dilemma but even a very smart kid probably doesn't truly fathom how his reading a single book could truly ruin things in all of your lives depending on your hubby takes this (I imagine he'll see this as a case of "accidentally on purpose" if I'm thinking of the right guy). What you might want to do is just ask him what piqued his interest about the book and see if he has any immediate questions you might be able to answer without letting him read the book himself? That could be a way to gage things to see where you need to go with all this? Is it just me or is this all very stupid? Not your ADVICE! The "thought control". It really pisses me off. :/ That in order to explore and share new ideas I have to worry about the safety of my marriage. Pardon me while I have a fit of "It's not fair". The truth is, I think just with a few poignant conversations- that the kid is edging over to my side (the dark side?) Is it a cop out to say then, that he doesn't NEED the book right now? ....or is it wisdom. Hmmm. Here is an irony- people have to talk and talk and talk to convince others to believe in God- book after book. But they are SO afraid to look at one or two anti- christian books. A good lecture, or one strong argument is all it takes to un-do God. For people who are still in a decision making stage, I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 foolish, I'd suggest what my mother did. She stuck an interactive anatomy book in with all the other kid's books. I eventually found it and play with it. It opened the door to talks about sex, reproduction, how the body works, etc. Since, he has already found it, keeping it from him would be hard. From what you have said in other posts your kids "know" something is up with mommy and church, but because no one has addressed it directly, they are curious. So if mom is reading this book about Moses, then maybe if they read it then they could understand what's going on. I realize you may not be ready to tackle the conversation yet, but kids aren't always patient. So I would suggest saying they could read it when you are done. Finish the book, the put it somewhere they'll find it on their own. Nothing obvious like the kitchen table. But maybe in a stack on the back of the toilet or in a bookcase that is out in the open among other books. If they ask you can say it with the other books or something vague. And add, if they have question feel free to ask you. The biggest problem is the effect on your marriage. This issue has been looming for awhile now. It will be something you will have to face eventually and it will involve the kids. I don't know the best course of action, but if the kids understand both sides, it can't hurt them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 but if the kids understand both sides, it can't hurt them. good point. I wish the world was theoretical, rather than actually. Theoretically...I am very brave. When shit gets thrown at me, I handle it well...but I seem to be a coward when it comes to stirring it up. dammit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Is it just me or is this all very stupid? Not your ADVICE! The "thought control". It really pisses me off. :/ That in order to explore and share new ideas I have to worry about the safety of my marriage. Pardon me while I have a fit of "It's not fair". Marriages, and families in general, are difficult things. I hate giving advice that involves them since it's hard to know how that might affect them. It's easy for me to just tell you to do <whatever> and if it all blows up in your face, well, I'm safe way over here behind my keyboard but you have to suffer the consequences. In a "perfect" world you'd just do whatever you liked and he'd accept it or you could walk but in the real world not every is ready to resort to such drastic measures. I wasn't and so I don't expect anyone else to pull that trigger either. You have to walk the line and finding that line was extremely painful for me. I envy those who manage to get it right away. The truth is, I think just with a few poignant conversations- that the kid is edging over to my side (the dark side?) Is it a cop out to say then, that he doesn't NEED the book right now? ....or is it wisdom. Hmmm. No. It's not. You've had to make similar decisions for him over the entire course of his life. Here is an irony- people have to talk and talk and talk to convince others to believe in God- book after book. But they are SO afraid to look at one or two anti- christian books. A good lecture, or one strong argument is all it takes to un-do God. For people who are still in a decision making stage, I mean. Religion needs reinforcement. People can't believe in what isn't there without constantly being told it is there. Out of sight, out of mind. So if no one is reinforcing the ideas of religion then is has no way to keep its foothold. Miracles cease to occur and nature can take its place. But societies prefer to see miracles and reinforces them and everything they represent. It feeds on itself. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smellincoffee Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Twelve years old and wanting to read Ingersoll? Your child has a bright future ahead of him. I'm no in position to offer advice, none responsible anyway -- I am not a parent, least of all one in a relationship with a religious partner. Ingersoll is...a rich author. I don't know what I would have made of "Colonel Bob" at that age, but the man was a master at oratory and the text reflects his strengths well. This kind of intellectual courage, that "championing of humanity"...for that alone I would recommend him. His life reflected the kind of character most parents want their children to emulate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I let my kid read what he wants. When he's older, if he's going to become a So. Baptist, there is little I can do about it. He's heard his parents' point of view a zillion plus times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagickMonkey Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I suggest letting him read it. Of course, I don't have to deal with the fall out. But, looking back on my own life, I really wish I could have deconverted when I was that age. I wasted a lot of time and missed out on many opportunities because I took christianity so seriously. I don't know how seriously he takes christianity, but if he's mentally mature enough to understand what the book has to say, he really might benefit from reading it. BTW, sorry for not noticing this post until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted March 2, 2011 Author Share Posted March 2, 2011 . BTW, sorry for not noticing this post until now. no problem monkey. Your comments are appreciated- not demanded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagickMonkey Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 . BTW, sorry for not noticing this post until now. no problem monkey. Your comments are appreciated- not demanded Yeah, I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DayLight Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 So I left my book out. Or my 10 yr old found it and got it out. “Some Mistakes of Moses”- Robert Ingersoll. My 12 yr old spotted it. Read the back cover and the first paragraph before I knew it. I picked up up from under his nose and said “I love you...”. So we have this conversation. He wants to read the book. I told him that I want to let him read it but I am not positive about how to handle the situation. I know- before you all jump down my throat that I should just let him read it. And I am feeling like I will. It is just, I know that once he does, he will change. And that will have some consequences within my marriage. On the other hand, it is not right to police a person's thoughts. If God is so mighty then a simple essay should not be able to undo him. Right? My marriage though.....stupid politics. So I told the kid “I am not saying no. I just need to think about it before I open up this door ( I have a few on the shelf that he may be interested in). So I opened the book to read the first paragraph. To see what he had ingested and oh! How ironic. It was like Ingersoll was frowning down at me (or my husband?) Here I will type for you the first page of the book. SOME MISTAKES OF MOSES. HE WHO ENDEAVORS TO CONTROL THE MIND BY FORCE IS A TYRANT, AND HE WHO SUBMITS IS A SLAVE. I. I want to do what little I can to make my country truly free, to broaden the intellectual horizon of our people, to destroy the prejudices born of ignorance and fear, to do away with the blind worship of the ignoble past, with the idea that all of the great and good are dead, that the living are totally depraved, that all pleasures are sins, that sighs and groans alone are pleasing to God, that thought is dangerous, that intellectual courage is a crime, that cowardice is a virtue, that a certain belief is necessary to secure salvation, that to carry a cross in this world will give us a palm in the next, and that we must allow some priest to be the pilot of our souls. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Emphasis added. Those emboldened quotes and the one in caps at the beginning were like a slap in the face. It isn't the potential hissy-fit directed at me that I worry about. I can win any debate with him (though I can never secure his submission!)....it is the potential to have the kid thrust into the situation. Husband is LOOOoong winded and forceful when applying apologetics. He also has the judgementalness of God. You know it is ok, because the bible says it. So you can make the kid feel bad for questioning....make him fear hell...you know, for his own good. What do you guys think of all of this? I teach my child that everybody has a right to their own opinion and belief. My child knows that my husband and I don't see eye to eye on some beliefs. And that that is just the way things are in the world. My child has chosen to believe that fairies are real. I told her that some people believe that and others don't. She has a choice. She can believe it if she wants to. But that she shouldn't argue with others because they have the choice to not believe. I would tell your child that you and his dad have different beliefs and that arguing about them is never good. And that he can have his own beliefs, but keep them to himself. (and children are good at doing stuff they are not supposed to, so you could leave that book out somewhere where your child would notice it and might take it and read it, but you were not the one actually approving it (in case it came out in the conversation with the husband) People like to hold people in bondage of their own beliefs and opinions. Some love to push their beliefs down others' throats and like to exercise control over others. So in this sense, it's like a war on the spiritual level. So spying, hiding and covering up is a part of that war. Oppressive religious beliefs (you are forever guilty and not matter what you do, you are not good enough and you will probably be punished) are harmful. And if there is a chance to sow a seed of doubt (so that this belief wouldn't take root too strongly) is a good idea. Just make sure to tell the child to learn to keep things to himself and to develop the habit of never arguing about his beliefs or pushing them down somebody else's throat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 So I left my book out. Or my 10 yr old found it and got it out. “Some Mistakes of Moses”- Robert Ingersoll. My 12 yr old spotted it. Read the back cover and the first paragraph before I knew it. I picked up up from under his nose and said “I love you...”. So we have this conversation. He wants to read the book. I told him that I want to let him read it but I am not positive about how to handle the situation. I know- before you all jump down my throat that I should just let him read it. And I am feeling like I will. It is just, I know that once he does, he will change. And that will have some consequences within my marriage. On the other hand, it is not right to police a person's thoughts. If God is so mighty then a simple essay should not be able to undo him. Right? My marriage though.....stupid politics. So I told the kid “I am not saying no. I just need to think about it before I open up this door ( I have a few on the shelf that he may be interested in). So I opened the book to read the first paragraph. To see what he had ingested and oh! How ironic. It was like Ingersoll was frowning down at me (or my husband?) Here I will type for you the first page of the book. SOME MISTAKES OF MOSES. HE WHO ENDEAVORS TO CONTROL THE MIND BY FORCE IS A TYRANT, AND HE WHO SUBMITS IS A SLAVE. I. I want to do what little I can to make my country truly free, to broaden the intellectual horizon of our people, to destroy the prejudices born of ignorance and fear, to do away with the blind worship of the ignoble past, with the idea that all of the great and good are dead, that the living are totally depraved, that all pleasures are sins, that sighs and groans alone are pleasing to God, that thought is dangerous, that intellectual courage is a crime, that cowardice is a virtue, that a certain belief is necessary to secure salvation, that to carry a cross in this world will give us a palm in the next, and that we must allow some priest to be the pilot of our souls. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Emphasis added. Those emboldened quotes and the one in caps at the beginning were like a slap in the face. It isn't the potential hissy-fit directed at me that I worry about. I can win any debate with him (though I can never secure his submission!)....it is the potential to have the kid thrust into the situation. Husband is LOOOoong winded and forceful when applying apologetics. He also has the judgementalness of God. You know it is ok, because the bible says it. So you can make the kid feel bad for questioning....make him fear hell...you know, for his own good. What do you guys think of all of this? I teach my child that everybody has a right to their own opinion and belief. My child knows that my husband and I don't see eye to eye on some beliefs. And that that is just the way things are in the world. My child has chosen to believe that fairies are real. I told her that some people believe that and others don't. She has a choice. She can believe it if she wants to. But that she shouldn't argue with others because they have the choice to not believe. I would tell your child that you and his dad have different beliefs and that arguing about them is never good. And that he can have his own beliefs, but keep them to himself. (and children are good at doing stuff they are not supposed to, so you could leave that book out somewhere where your child would notice it and might take it and read it, but you were not the one actually approving it (in case it came out in the conversation with the husband) People like to hold people in bondage of their own beliefs and opinions. Some love to push their beliefs down others' throats and like to exercise control over others. So in this sense, it's like a war on the spiritual level. So spying, hiding and covering up is a part of that war. Oppressive religious beliefs (you are forever guilty and not matter what you do, you are not good enough and you will probably be punished) are harmful. And if there is a chance to sow a seed of doubt (so that this belief wouldn't take root too strongly) is a good idea. Just make sure to tell the child to learn to keep things to himself and to develop the habit of never arguing about his beliefs or pushing them down somebody else's throat. Wow. When you put it like that it seems perfectly reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagickMonkey Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 So I left my book out. Or my 10 yr old found it and got it out. “Some Mistakes of Moses”- Robert Ingersoll. My 12 yr old spotted it. Read the back cover and the first paragraph before I knew it. I picked up up from under his nose and said “I love you...”. So we have this conversation. He wants to read the book. I told him that I want to let him read it but I am not positive about how to handle the situation. I know- before you all jump down my throat that I should just let him read it. And I am feeling like I will. It is just, I know that once he does, he will change. And that will have some consequences within my marriage. On the other hand, it is not right to police a person's thoughts. If God is so mighty then a simple essay should not be able to undo him. Right? My marriage though.....stupid politics. So I told the kid “I am not saying no. I just need to think about it before I open up this door ( I have a few on the shelf that he may be interested in). So I opened the book to read the first paragraph. To see what he had ingested and oh! How ironic. It was like Ingersoll was frowning down at me (or my husband?) Here I will type for you the first page of the book. SOME MISTAKES OF MOSES. HE WHO ENDEAVORS TO CONTROL THE MIND BY FORCE IS A TYRANT, AND HE WHO SUBMITS IS A SLAVE. I. I want to do what little I can to make my country truly free, to broaden the intellectual horizon of our people, to destroy the prejudices born of ignorance and fear, to do away with the blind worship of the ignoble past, with the idea that all of the great and good are dead, that the living are totally depraved, that all pleasures are sins, that sighs and groans alone are pleasing to God, that thought is dangerous, that intellectual courage is a crime, that cowardice is a virtue, that a certain belief is necessary to secure salvation, that to carry a cross in this world will give us a palm in the next, and that we must allow some priest to be the pilot of our souls. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Emphasis added. Those emboldened quotes and the one in caps at the beginning were like a slap in the face. It isn't the potential hissy-fit directed at me that I worry about. I can win any debate with him (though I can never secure his submission!)....it is the potential to have the kid thrust into the situation. Husband is LOOOoong winded and forceful when applying apologetics. He also has the judgementalness of God. You know it is ok, because the bible says it. So you can make the kid feel bad for questioning....make him fear hell...you know, for his own good. What do you guys think of all of this? I teach my child that everybody has a right to their own opinion and belief. My child knows that my husband and I don't see eye to eye on some beliefs. And that that is just the way things are in the world. My child has chosen to believe that fairies are real. I told her that some people believe that and others don't. She has a choice. She can believe it if she wants to. But that she shouldn't argue with others because they have the choice to not believe. I would tell your child that you and his dad have different beliefs and that arguing about them is never good. And that he can have his own beliefs, but keep them to himself. (and children are good at doing stuff they are not supposed to, so you could leave that book out somewhere where your child would notice it and might take it and read it, but you were not the one actually approving it (in case it came out in the conversation with the husband) People like to hold people in bondage of their own beliefs and opinions. Some love to push their beliefs down others' throats and like to exercise control over others. So in this sense, it's like a war on the spiritual level. So spying, hiding and covering up is a part of that war. Oppressive religious beliefs (you are forever guilty and not matter what you do, you are not good enough and you will probably be punished) are harmful. And if there is a chance to sow a seed of doubt (so that this belief wouldn't take root too strongly) is a good idea. Just make sure to tell the child to learn to keep things to himself and to develop the habit of never arguing about his beliefs or pushing them down somebody else's throat. I disagree to some extent. We should not be pushing our beliefs down peoples throats, but we should not hide our beliefs either. We should not feel obligated to keep things to our selves. We should not feel that we cannot challenge the beliefs of others just like we should challenge our own beliefs. We should not condemn others for believing differently, but why hide our differences in beliefs? Civil debates benefit those who participate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolish girl Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 I disagree to some extent. We should not be pushing our beliefs down peoples throats, but we should not hide our beliefs either. We should not feel obligated to keep things to our selves. We should not feel that we cannot challenge the beliefs of others just like we should challenge our own beliefs. We should not condemn others for believing differently, but why hide our differences in beliefs? Civil debates benefit those who participate. True. But the problem here is that children are not equipped to deal with him. I do not want them to engage him- It is probably inevitable though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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