Did Jesus Exist?

[MQTA]

From http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/is_jesus_fiction/

 

Jesus Never Existed at All 

 

This is an article written by Don Havis that appears to be well researched. I found this on East Bay Atheists and I was surprised when I read it. Like most people who don't believe in Jesus I had thought that there was at least "some guy" in the past that at least existed. (Being raised Jewish and not buying Judaism I was hardly buying the "God had to kill his son for your sins" story.) I suppose that it comes from the same trust that the human race can't be that stupid, that surely this isn't pure fiction. It appears I was wrong.

 

Jesus joins the ranks of pure fiction with the likes of Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Boogie Man, God, Apollo, Zeus, Yoda, Osiris, Spock, Vishnu, Noah, Aphrodite, Hermes, the Virgin Mary, Eros, Iris, Moses, and Spiderman. Billions of people believing in nothing.

 

I find this fascinating, I hope you all will as well whether you be an Atheist or a Christian. Truth should stand up to scrutiny and it is by doubting that we maintain trustworthiness

[MQTA]

I admit that there may very well be more than “seven major arguments” for the pure-myth position, and that in some instances the arguments presented here partially overlap. Also, many of the same arguments can be used to support position three. However, I have, perhaps arbitrarily, outlined the following seven arguments for the reader’s consideration:

 

 

No one seemed to have noticed Jesus in his time.

 

The Gospels were not written by eyewitnesses.

 

The gospels are entirely fictional, pure myths.

 

What we now call “Christianity” existed long before Jesus’ time. It was derived from earlier “scripture” and more ancient myths.

 

Paul, writing earlier than the gospels, clearly spoke of a “spiritual” Christ. He knew nothing of a real, live human Jesus.

 

There is no agreement at all concerning this putative historical Jesus’ looks, lineage, biography, character, moral worthiness, or even his central message.

 

The “you-can’t-have-it-both-ways” argument.

[MQTA]

and I thought Mark was written before 70AD... hmmm...

 

Whether one believes that the canonical gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John) are partly fictional elaborations of some core of truth, or whether you believe they are entirely fictional is not the issue at this point. (What I see as a separate issue of their fictional or non-fictional status will be taken up in the next point.) The question here is simply, were the gospels written by human witnesses to the “life and times” of the putative Jesus? This point can be handled quite briefly. The answer is a resounding “No!” There is virtual unanimity of opinion by all un-brainwashed, rational biblical scholars—even so-called Christian scholars (perhaps an oxymoron)—that the gospels were written by now unknown writers anytime between 40 years after Jesus’ time up to about 185 years after his supposed death, depending on what scholar one consults. Most scholars place Mark, the generally recognized first written gospel, at about the year 70 CE, just after the destruction of the Jewish temple of Yahweh. However, Earl Doherty has advanced some closely reasoned arguments that support a time “around the years 85 to 90 CE.” (The Jesus Puzzle, p. 3).

[MQTA]

It is interesting to me that a great many freethinkers and rationalists—people who might be reading this article—are very quick to agree that pretty much the entire bible is chock full of misinformation, forgeries, bad history and just plain lies. Not only that, but most rationalists are quite willing to accept the proposition that this mish-mash of prevarication was not simply a naive passing along of old legends, but were written for the express purpose of convincing (i.e. “converting”) the gullible reader into subscribing to the particular fanciful dogma the ancient writers were trying to peddle. However, for some reason or another that entirely escapes me—perhaps just early brainwashing imbedded as deeply as potty training—these same rationalists are reluctant to imagine that the four gospels are completely fictional. Surely, they say, there must have been some sort of demythologized, even perhaps anonymous nobody who was arrested, tried by Roman authorities, then crucified. We can’t be sure of any more details than that, they say. I simply ask, why must this be so? What more tangible evidence can anyone present that the whole story is not simply what it appears to be—a retelling of one or more of the dozens, perhaps hundreds, of ancient sun-god or sky-god’s traditional, descending then ascending god myths, generally consisting of elements such as of first some tribulations (a trial), conviction, crucifixion, and finally resurrection? One could go on for several paragraphs pointing out the many details of the “passion story” that have parallels not only in more ancient myths, but also in earlier Jewish writings including the Old Testament. See, for example, Zechariah 9: 9, which foreshadows Jesus’ triumphal entrance into Jerusalem on an ass; actually “on an ass and the foal of an ass”—a neat trick, eh?), and the foreshadowing of the whole “passion story” in Psalms 22, the virgin birth in Isaiah 7: 14, his birth in Bethlehem in Micah 5: 2. All of this has been well noted for centuries. Why in the world would any rational person imagine that any of these fables were in any sense true?

 

It's interesting how Christians point to the OT to prove the NT, how do they fail to see that the OT was there, and the NT was, so, maybe, Just maybe, the NT was written USING the OT? Why is that so hard to see? Took me less than 4 months since I started my research early last year to see it.

 

They are so convinced that everything they see is how it is.. they fail to see they're looking at it from the diametrically opposite way it should be. They fall into the "what they'd like you to believe" category. And truly, nobody can bring someone else out of it, we all had to see it for ourselves.

[MQTA]

I  will quote one more source, a small pamphlet published by The Freedom From Religion Foundation which “zeroes in” on the mythical antecedents of the Jesus Christ figure. The pamphlet—really, a tract—is entitled, “Cookie Cutter Christs.” The sun-god Mithra, who was very popular in the Roman Empire around 2000 years ago was “born of a virgin about 600 BC, was celebrated on December 25. Magi brought gifts to his birth. His first worshipers were shepherds and he was followed in his travels by twelve companions. Mithra was slain upon a cross in Persia to make atonement for humankind and take away the sins of the world. His ascension to heaven was celebrated at the spring equinox (Easter).” Additionally, the pamphlet continues, “Mithra celebrated a ‘Last Supper’ with his 12 disciples. The Mythraists observed weekly sabbath days and celebrated the Eucharist by eating wafers marked with a cross.” Does any of this sound familiar?

 

The same pamphlet notes that, “Attis was born of a virgin mother named Nana, in Phrygia sometime before 200 BC. He was hanged on a tree, died, rose again, and was called ‘Father God’.” “Horus was born of the virgin Isis in Egypt around 1550 BC. Horus as an infant received gifts from three kings, and was crucified on a cross. There are about 200 close parallels of the careers of Horus and Jesus Christ.” “Adonis (Tammuz) was born of a virgin mother called Ishtar (Easter), depicted like the Virgin Mary with her divine child in her arms. Adonis was regarded as both the son and husband of his mother Ishtar, as God the Father and God the Son.” We could go on and on. Any of the above named books will give the interested reader much more information about ancient gods along this same line. The mythology doesn’t change much, just the name of the current sun-god de jure.

 

just some highlights from the above link. excellent stuff, all on one page!

[MQTA]

Let’s examine just a few points of reference that one might reasonably be expected to know about a person whose influence was so great that it literally change the course of history over the next two millenium.

 

Looks? No one in the entire bible gives any definitive description of Jesus whatsoever. He is depicted in artistic works, ranging from the ninth century up to modern times, as everything from being rather short with a “male pattern baldness problem” to the tall, handsome Nordic Jesus with the neatly trimmed beard we all met in Sunday School. Secular scholar, Dr. William Harwood, an advocate of a “historical nobody” who served as a basis of the mythical Jesus, believes that Jesus was, “an odd looking man, balding, stooped, with joined eyebrows, and approximately 4 ft 6 in tall” (Mythology’s Last Gods, p. 63). Enough said.

 

Birth date? Biblical scholars of all stripes disagree as to the date of the mythical Jesus’ birth. Dates range from about 4 BCE (the one most often quoted) to about 7 CA.

 

Birthplace? The bible says Bethlehem. However, Jesus is constantly referred to as “Jesus of Nazareth.” Scholars now understand that this was probably a linguistic confusion and perhaps an early mistranslation. Jesus was a “Nazarene,” the title of a sect, not a name having geographical associations. Thus, as G. A. Wells explains, “‘Jesus the Nazarene’ is equivalent to, say, ‘Henry the Quaker’ or ‘George the Methodist.’” (Wells, Did Jesus Exist, p. 147.) Furthermore, modern archeology has established that there was no such city as Nazareth in the first century. Dr. Harwood, mentioned above, argue strongly for the city of Capurnaum as a probable birth city.

 

Personal character and/or moral worthiness? Although we heard all about the loving, compassionate Jesus in church, and how we ought to “turn the other cheek,” we were not given the quotations that urged his followers to bring those that would not have me for their leader and “slay them before me.” (Luke 19: 27.) We were told not to lie. However, we read about how Jesus lied when it suited him. (See Mattill, A. J. Sweet Jesus, p. 103) We remember the part about not stealing, but we heard nothing about Jesus’ habit of stealing pigs, wheat, donkeys, cash, cows, olive oil, and figs. (op. cit. p. 31-33.)

[MQTA]

oh, this is good: Instructions. LOL

 

Perhaps more critical than all of the above inconsistencies and silences is the confusion about what, exactly, was J.C.’s central message? The problem of discerning a “central message” is confounded not because there isn’t one, but because there are too many. If one asks the average Christian what was Jesus’ essential message to us, they look at you as if you must be the stupidest person they have ever met. Then, they explain patiently that, “God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son to die for us so as to atone for our sins, and that if you would simply believe in him, you could have a sort of second life, ever-lasting, in a place called heaven.” Now, at first you must try to ignore the sheer imbecility of what you just heard, and ask a few follow-up questions. You may ask something like, “Well, how can I ‘believe on him’ as the bible phrases it, when I am not clear about his full message and his teachings?” The Christian has a ready answer. “You can read the bible and there you will learn all about his wonderful message to us.”

 

“I already did that,” you might say, “ but then I became even more confused.” As mentioned above, there seems to be hundreds of messages, often with conflicting ideas and pronouncements. You might also add that you were a bit confused as to whether you should pay more attention to Peter’s Jewish ‘works-based’ Christianity, or to Paul’s Gentile ‘faith-based’ Christianity. You confess further confusion when you read about the early Gnostic Christian’s ‘knowledge’ (Gnosis) based Christianity. Despite all your reading, you say, you are still “unclear on the concept.” At this point the Christian will generally say something like, “Jesus loves you anyway” and walk away.

[Mythra]

I've been in the mythicist camp for some time now. (as are quite a few of us here at Ex-C.) I think it makes the most sense, when you really examine things. It kinda blows you away when you first realize it, though. Everyone just takes it for granted that Jesus really lived some kind of a life here as a human being.

 

Christian apologists make fun of the mythicist position, like it's some kind of joke. They immediately dismiss the leading mythicists as crack-pots. Then, they go after their credentials. But, I've never seen em tackle the issues head-on with any kind of legitimate, believable response.

[EdwardAbbey]

From http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/is_jesus_fiction/

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Jesus is a myth. He never existed anymore than Humpty Dumpty ever existed.

[MQTA]

I guess it's all Hit or Myth

[Razor]

Sounds like an Opinion to me.

 

Meanwhile Israel awaits the return of the King!

For first he must put his own house in order!

 

Peace

[Dianka]

Sounds like an Opinion to me.

 

Meanwhile Israel awaits the return of the King!

For first he must put his own house in order!

 

Peace

 

 

 

This post is pointless.

I mean, Razor's post is more pointless than my post pointing out the pointlessness of his pointless post.

[Fweethawt]

 

This post is pointless.

I mean, Razor's post is more pointless than my post pointing out the pointlessness of his pointless post.

 

His post is even more pointless than my post pointing out the pointlessness of your post. Which, if you really think about it, is quite pointless also.

 

 

 

[Dianka]

His post is even more pointless than my post pointing out the pointlessness of your post. Which, if you really think about it, is quite pointless also.

 

Oh man, we should stop before we make him cry.

 

 

 

:tongue:

[scotter]

Meanwhile Israel awaits the return of the King!

 

Razor do you think Jesus would return in this generation's time? In your lifetime?

[Fweethawt]

Oh man, we should stop before we make him cry.

:tongue:

Screw him! <--- him.

 

I almost cried just typing that!

 

[Razor]

From Zeh 14 NIV

 

 

1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

 

3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

 

6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime—a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.

 

8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, [c] in summer and in winter.

 

9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name

 

 

Peace

[Fweethawt]

Does anyone know a good term/name that goes well with this definition?

 

The perfect embodiment of stupidity.

[Fweethawt]

Razorology?

Good 'nuff.

[Razor]

Good 'nuff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LOL,

Actualy I think that even if you where not a Christian, the hand written accounts of the Disciples are an eye wittness account, how many wittneses 12 or more?

 

No matter, over my life I have heard the saying that quite often truth is stranger than Fiction.

I really do believe that of the Bible, its truths are stranger than any Fiction.

 

I have oftened wondered with the special effects capabilaty of todays Movie Industry, when some one will attempt parts of the Revalations.

 

WOA what a Wild special effects Movie that would be.

 

On the other side of things I very much enjoyed Mel Gibsons movie The Passion of Christ.

It really portrayed the suffering of Christ on our behalf, who could ever forget the Sadistic flogging Scene.

 

Peace

[Checkmate]

Does anyone know a good term/name that goes well with this definition?

 

The perfect embodiment of stupidity.

Answer: RELIGION.

[Mythra]

 

Good one, Grinchy.

 

Religion.

 

[Mythra]

Sounds like an Opinion to me.

Meanwhile Israel awaits the return of the King!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Israel does not await the return of the King. "Return" would indicate that he has already been there.

 

Israel awaits the Messiah. The first coming of the Messiah. Just like they've been doing for thousands and thousands of years.

 

Hard to tell who is worse brainwashed. Razor, or the guys with the funny hats and the curly que sideburns.

[Ouroboros]

From Zeh 14 NIV

1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.

    2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

Is this a prophesy about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE and the following diaspora? Or is it in the future? If it's the future, then this hasn't been fulfilled yet, and doesn't prove the prophesy.

 

    3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

Well, we haven't see this yet, so how can it be a fulfilled prophesy?

 

6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime—a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.

 

    8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, [c] in summer and in winter.

 

    9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name

Peace

All of it is assumptions and belief that it will happen some day. But it's not a fulfilled prophesy.

[MQTA]

LOL,

Actualy I think that even if you where not a Christian, the hand written accounts of the Disciples are an eye wittness account, how many wittneses 12 or more?

 

What hand written accounts? and name the Disciples? Talking about the ones that FLED? Or the writings made up 100-200 years after the supposed event you're probably talking about?

 

No matter, over my life I have heard the saying that quite often truth is stranger than Fiction.

I really do believe that of the Bible, its truths are stranger than any Fiction.

 

I have oftened wondered with the special effects capabilaty of todays Movie Industry, when some one will attempt parts of the Revalations.

 

WOA what a Wild special effects Movie that would be.

 

On the other side of things I very much enjoyed Mel Gibsons movie  The Passion of Christ.

It really portrayed the suffering of Christ on our behalf, who could ever forget the Sadistic flogging Scene.

 

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Did you see the disclaimer at the end of the movie? Standard one about all events are fictional.

 

Just like the movie War and Peace, or Men in Black.