Did Jesus Exist?

[chohan]

Israel does not await the return of the King.  "Return" would indicate that he has already been there.

Israel awaits the Messiah.  The first coming of the Messiah. 

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Just like the apostle Paul.

 

(Thought you might appreciate that one Mythra)

 

Just like they've been doing for thousands and thousands of years.

 

Exactly.

 

cheers,

cho

[All Gods Fail]

LOL,

Actualy I think that even if you where not a Christian, the hand written accounts of the Disciples are an eye wittness account, how many wittneses 12 or more?

 

???

 

I don't get it. You're saying since the bible said there were 12 disciples, and...then ya lost me. Please try again. Seriously, I don't understand your point.

 

No matter, over my life I have heard the saying that quite often truth is stranger than Fiction.

I really do believe that of the Bible, its truths are stranger than any Fiction.

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(A note: 'fiction' shouldn't be capitalized. Poor grammar.)

 

The bible's "truths" are strange all right, but Buddhism reveals deeper truths, IMO. Well, to each his own.

 

Frankly, I think the truth of a black hole is more amazing than anything in that storybook of yours. A gravitational pull so strong that not even light can escape it's pull. That's a mind-blower. Meanwhile, god is still piddling around with asteroids (which his followers mistakenly identify as 'stars') and sitting on his canopy over the 4 pillars of the earth. Yawn.

 

Talking snakes and water-into-wine are pretty paltry in comparison.

[Ouroboros]

Talking snakes and water-into-wine are pretty paltry in comparison.

Good point. Why didn't Jesus take the disciples for a spin around the galaxy instead?

If he really wanted to show the miracles of God-like proportions, why didn't he take them to the moon and let them have a good view of Earth, just to give them a cool experience? Then the Gospels would have included: "... and by the way dudes, we saw, with our own eyes, that Earth is round as a ball, and not flat..."

 

At least it would have saved some peoples lives some thousand years later...

[Asuryan]

LOL,

Actualy I think that even if you where not a Christian, the hand written accounts of the Disciples are an eye wittness account, how many wittneses 12 or more?

 

Resounding chorus: "HUH?"

 

 

On the other side of things I very much enjoyed Mel Gibsons movie  The Passion of Christ.

It really portrayed the suffering of Christ on our behalf, who could ever forget the Sadistic flogging Scene.

 

Peace

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I enjoyed it a lot too! It was one of the funniest movies I've ever seen! Screw Jim Carrey and his ace venturas and his masks, he cannot compare to the sheer, spontaneous humour of this movie!

At first, I was puzzled by the blood dropping everywhere, meat tearing away with each and every whiplash.

Then after the first ten blows, I started to get bored.

Then as the blows increased, along with the blood on the floor which at the end amounted to an enormous, unbelievable quantity (liters and liters? And I thought that a human being died after s/he loses more than 1 liter of blood... there was, like, a couple 20 liters buckets on the ground!), and the camera focus moved oh-so-often to the suffering, gasping, shivering face of the christ, I, along with the friend I was with, started laughing (as silently as I could, however, I'm a gentlewoman!). We laughed together until the end of the movie, and at least in a couple scenes our laughs became wild roars that echoed inside the astonished, shocked and moved theatre: that, especially during the scene where Longinus pierces Jesus' ribcage, and that jesus is so BLATANTLY a dummy, and blood comes out as if someone had opened a shower. A movie so desperate to be pathetic and inspire compassion, in a way so forceful and exaggerated, that it obtains (at least for me) the exact opposite effect: laughs.

A beautiful movie. Beautiful. When I came out of the theatre I was still laughing. Never before I've seen such a masterpiece. Kudos to Mel! And of course, the disclaimer about the fictional facts was the icing on the cake.

 

Are you still with me after this little review of mine, Razor?

If so, well, just tell me why the suffering that christ showed on his beautiful actor's face while he was flogged should be regarded as "better" or "more precious" than the suffering endured by hundreds? thousands? Hundreds of thousands? of people tortured by the inquisition. They had this small, pear-like torture object they used to torture both men and women... christians have always been very creative when it comes down to torture methods and brainwashing.

[mwc]

Yes, I believe that Jesus existed except his name may not have been Jesus and he didn't do any of the things written in the bible. I think, in addition to the mythological influences, there was one or more real life templates for the Jesus character that we know today. I would guess that at least one predates the whole story in the gospels since it looks like proto-christianity pre-dates those events.

 

I give a divine god-man Jesus a 0% chance of ever living. I give a non-divine teacher Jesus that did everything laid out in the gospels (minus the supernatural) a 0-5% chance of ever living. I give a teacher Jesus maybe 10-20% chance of ever living and being the single model for modern Jesus. I give some of the apostles and Paul (and Barnabas) a good 50-60%, on average (since someone like James would be higher and Judas would be near zero), chance of living. I'd say Luke is higher around 90-100%.

 

For some reason, based on the reading I have done, I think Luke created Paul (and Barnabas) and when the Luke/Acts version of christianity took off one or more people used Paul as a pseudonym (like Mark Twain). Someone, maybe Luke, probably assumed the Paul role in real life (switching between using Paul and his real persona as it suited him). This might be the real answer to why Paul denounced false teachings. It reads like it's directed at the "12" in Israel but I'm thinking it was to protect against false "Pauls" running around and capitalizing on the whole thing (and answers why there were rules for how long a disciple could stay in your house and so on).

 

I also think the 12 apostles may have been a failed attempt at a council of 12 power group. The original 12 (it may not have been 12 but it doesn't matter) were probably the originators of the christian myth (for reasons we'll never know for sure) and were probably not the 12 in the bible although the 12 in the bible may have been later members of the group. When competing versions of xianity came along and undermined their power base they faded into history.

 

Alright enough of my unfounded ideas.

 

mwc

[Checkmate]

................

On the other side of things I very much enjoyed Mel Gibsons movie  The Passion of Christ.

It really portrayed the suffering of Christ on our behalf, who could ever forget the Sadistic flogging Scene.

 

Peace

WHY would you refer to a MOVIE in your defense of the BIBLE? Hint: The MOVIE is a FICTION. Your Bible is supposed to be REAL. Why utilize a man-made, HOLLYWOOD medium to support your HOLY book? In doing so you've dragged down the bible to the level of fiction (where it belongs). You're shooting yourself in the foot.

 

I don't expect you to understand your dilemma. Most Christians don't. As lamented by other Christians. Not all Christians are happy about the CATHOLIC movie, The Passion.

 

Here -- do some light reading from YOUR side of the fence.

 

Passion of the Christ Reviews

[Antlerman]

LOL,

Actualy I think that even if you where not a Christian, the hand written accounts of the Disciples are an eye wittness account, how many wittneses 12 or more?

 

 

Answer this question Razor for all of us: Do you ignore any information you learn on this board because you don't like what it says? I know for a fact that it has been said to you over and over and over and over, that the Gospels were not eyewitness accounts. You are brainwashed. Brainwashed washed people filter out everything that goes against their programming Razor. You are brainwashed. Are you getting the picture here yet?

[MQTA]

where's that disclaimer from the movie Passions? I thought I saw it attached in post.. anyone have it available?

[All Gods Fail]

Here -- do some light reading from YOUR side of the fence.

 

Passion of the Christ Reviews

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Oh man - these are too funny! Watching proddies and ring-kissers going at it is like watching 2 kittens trying to smack each other down!

 

This one is really rich!

 

Mel Gibson, together with the globe-trotting Pope John Paul II, will doubtless go down in history as this generation’s two premier evangelists for these heresies.

 

I do not want that legacy. I want a legacy for standing for the truth of God’s holy Book and for it alone. I stand and die with the Bible. I believe that it is the preserved Word of God (the Masoretic Hebrew and Greek Received texts and accurate translations thereof in any language) and that it alone is the standard for faith and practice. The evangelicals and Baptists who are fawning over this movie and its Catholic evangelist are throwing away their legacy. They are selling their birthright for a mess of pottage.

 

Translation: Gibson's religious twaddle is outselling OUR religious twaddle! Don't help out the Catholics, for fuck's sake!

 

[Guest vanesa]

our Bible is supposed to be REAL. Why utilize a man-made, HOLLYWOOD medium to support your HOLY book? In doing so you've dragged down the bible to the level of fiction (where it belongs). You're shooting yourself in the foot.

 

Why do you think us Deists don't take the Xtians seriously? Little wonder why Xtianity and religion in general is the butt of everyone's jokes. I suppose now people will start using the Lord of the Rings movies as religious movies and actually start worshipping hobbits and whatever weird creatures in those films. I laugh at you religious idiots.

 

 

[daniel_1012]

From http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/is_jesus_fiction/

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Well that was inspiring.

[Razor]

Razor do you think Jesus would return in this generation's time? In your lifetime?

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Ive been away sorry,

 

I do not know when he will return only God knows that, the Bible tells of a time of great trouble.

I can understand how people would not belive in God and Christ, thats ok.

Myself I have always believed like a Child believes, the problem was I wanted to live a life with out God and Christ in it.

Boring! I thought, I wanted to do my own thing! so I did, ironicly enough to the point where God decided that was going to change for me.

 

Its the Ultimate Irony for me personaly, there are people who seek out God and never seem to find him, I was trying to avoid God thinking he could not see what I was up too, and he caught up with me.

 

I do not think I am anybody special, there are those in this World Doubly more blessed than me, because they believe with out seeing.

 

Peace

[scotter]

I can understand how people would not belive in God and Christ, thats ok.

 

Razor,

 

Thanks for your reply. From what I read, you have a strong conviction in the history and destiny of Israel, however, at most that helps the position of the Judaism God. What do you further suggest in connecting the Judaism God with Jesus, who is part of your belief?

 

From the Colosseum Trinity thread, you said you have personal spiritual experience of experiencing Jesus, two (the Father and the Son) as in one. In addition to personal experience, could you further share?

 

Not rhetorical questions, but questions for knowledge.

[Razor]

Actualy I just thought of another Irony.

There is like all these people that talk about God, even though they reckon he does not exist, then there are all these big fancy arguements with lots of words that go no where.

 

Like on this Forum, and like many other forums, and then in the middle of it all, along stumbles somebody like me that has actualy been touched by both God and Jesus on seperate Occasions, and have hardly read the Bible.

 

However, I think I have found somthing in scripture I can identify with,

 

1 Cor.1:27 the Bible says "God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the things which are mighty."

 

Hmmm am thinking on that one.

 

Peace

[mwc]

1 Cor.1:27 the Bible says "God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the things which are mighty."

 

Hmmm am thinking on that one.

Me too and this is what I came up with. Why would god consider foolishness to be a desirable attribute? Especially when you consider, despite his own rule, jesus used the concept in a negative way. Why would god choose to confound anyone for any reason? Why wouldn't god, if he's not going to personally communicate with everyone, at least try to make things as clear as possible? Why does Satan get all the blame for confusing people when the bible, here and other places, mentions that it is god mucking up things? What won't/can't god simply 'reveal' himself to everyone? This last one is the surest path to "save" as many souls as possible.

 

mwc

[All Gods Fail]

Actualy I just thought of another Irony.

There is like all these people that talk about God, even though they reckon he does not exist, then there are all these big fancy arguements with lots of words that go no where.

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Go nowhere? Buddy, it's your circular arguments that go nowhere. Most of the 'god does not exist' arguments I've read are pretty damn convincing. By your own admission, you haven't read the bible much, so how can you even say you have some insight that others don't?

 

BTW, I had a very touching, emotional experience with god/Jesus myself - it was how I became a believer. My big mistake was, I started to read the bible and study it. My confusion grew and grew, but because I didn't understand the true origins of 'divine' scripture I couldn't reconcile the contradictions and it ended up scrambling my beliefs.

 

So my advice to you would be: if you want to keep your faith, don't read the bible, don't study it's history, and don't spend too much time on websites like this one. You're much better off sticking to the handful of verses that support your beliefs.

 

The wise rabbit stays out of Mr. McGregor's garden.

[MQTA]

that's a good point.

 

read only the chapters and verses they tell you to read and nothing else.

 

don't ever try to see the bible graphically, like on http://www.thebricktestament.com that's a big no no. pictures really are worth thousands of words.

 

run from here, flee, go back to Church and let them fill your mind so you don't have to worry about your own personal growth

[Ouroboros]

Like on this Forum, and like many other forums, and then in the middle of it all, along stumbles somebody like me that has actualy been touched by both God and Jesus on seperate Occasions, and have hardly read the Bible.

Well, you should. You should read it a couple of times, considering that in your view it is the "Word of God", and don't you think that the "most important book every written directly inspired by God" ought to be read many times over?

 

However, I think I have found somthing in scripture I can identify with,

 

1 Cor.1:27 the Bible says "God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the things which are mighty."

You do understand that it means all argument that you do from now on, have to be childish and not logical, rational, reasonable in any way. You can not use the "wisdom of the world" in your arguments to support your faith anymore. You shouldn't even get into a discussion, since it's a matter of trying to be "adult" about the subject.

 

Hmmm am thinking on that one.

First time I read it was in the 70s. Nothing new.

 

Peace

To what price?

[Checkmate]

.................

BTW, I had a very touching, emotional experience with god/Jesus myself - it was how I became a believer. My big mistake was, I started to read the bible and study it. My confusion grew and grew, but because I didn't understand the true origins of 'divine' scripture I couldn't reconcile the contradictions and it ended up scrambling my beliefs.

..................

Exactly the same experience for me. (Except I wouldn't call it a "mistake"!) Before I studied scripture and church history and the like, I was a satisfied sheep being fleeced and led to the slaughter. But once I actually cracked the buy-bull code, the scales fell from my eyes and I couldn't quit fast enough!

 

It doesn't surprise me at all when Liberal Christians desire to avoid their bibles. Ignorance IS bliss, after all. I'm certain they are aware of the dangers inherent of KNOWING the bible. Just as the Catholic church is aware of the perils of educated "sheep". Why do you think Catholics have always stressed THEIR teaching over individual study?

 

Back in the Dark Ages the church would kill you for reading a bible! (Not that anyone could READ.) They were few and far between, VERY expensive (only royalty and the church could afford them) and written in Latin. Even the priests couldn't understand what the damn book said!

 

The bible was a VERY controlled substance back then.

 

That's why I encourage EVERYONE to read the damn thing. No better road to apostasy than reading the buy-bull.

[Mythra]

Like on this Forum, and like many other forums, and then in the middle of it all, along stumbles somebody like me that has actualy been touched by both God and Jesus on seperate Occasions, and have hardly read the Bible.

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Razor: Joseph Smith had some pretty incredible encounters with God, too. And with Jesus. And with angelic beings. Not to mention, it is claimed and documented that he performed miracles.

 

Do you believe these accounts are genuine? If not, why? And if so, then are you considering the claims of Mormonism for yourself?

[Vixentrox]

Like on this Forum, and like many other forums, and then in the middle of it all, along stumbles somebody like me that has actualy been touched by both God and Jesus on seperate Occasions, and have hardly read the Bible.

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Oh, gotta be god and Jesus. Couldn't possibly of been any other supernatural being? Ever consider you picked those becuase of the culture you were raised in?

[Mythra]

Razor: I'd really like you to think about this Joseph Smith thing.

 

Why don't you accept his visions and visitations from God and his miracles? There are millions of people who do. People who are every bit as religious as you. People who would die for their faith. People who are convinced that you have missed it. You have fallen short because you failed to acknowledge the "restored gospel of Jesus Christ".

 

If you dismiss Joseph Smith's experiences without giving it serious consideration, what possible justification could you give us for needing to accept yours?

 

Or, Saul/Paul's, for that matter.

[Antlerman]

However, I think I have found somthing in scripture I can identify with,

 

1 Cor.1:27 the Bible says "God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the things which are mighty."

 

Hmmm am thinking on that one.

 

Peace

I was waiting for that one from you. In essence you are saying about yourself, "I make no sense and sound foolish. The Bible says God has choosen the foolish things... Therefore, this is proof God has chosen me."

 

Consider reading it this way, it says "foolish things," not "fools".

[Mythra]

An interesting thing about that verse is that Saul/Paul was writing that to people who would have supposedly been very familiar with Jesus. And his miracles. And his teachings. And his resurrection. And his life.

 

Why the scrambling to justify "foolish things"? Paul shouldn't have had to convince anybody. Twenty years after Jesus had been there, it should have been common knowledge spread by word of mouth.

 

Unless those foolish things were your visions and half-baked theories about God and salvation.

[Amanda]

Hello All!

 

I liked the idea of this thread to look for reason and truth. Some say Jesus is no more real than Santa Claus! Well, I saw a documentary at the library I want to check out, on Santa Claus. It seems he was a real person, and it seems these accounts of him have gotten way out of hand... and I hope to check out this film today.

 

Having said that... it seems what is really important about Jesus is his teachings, or should I say for sake of this thread... the ones attributed to him. Could it be truth that we are to be humble, no one is better or worse than another? Is it truth that we should be meek, having our strengths under a gentle nature? Instead of wanting others to empower ourself, should we struggle to empower others? Is it truth that we are to place our value on internal values instead that of the world, to know who we are based on those values rather than opinions/condemnation of others? Are we to forgive people for our own sake, knowing ALL are doing the best than know how? And why would some people get together and attribute these masterful teachings and much more to a mythical being? It seems to me, it would be like Einstien attributing the theory of relativity to the pink unicorn. What purpose would he have for doing so?