Did Jesus Exist?

[Mythra]

It's happened for thousands and thousands of years, Amanda.

 

Take a look at all of the other mythological religions. Egyptian. Greek. Roman. Persian.

 

Who the hell knows why they felt the need to make em up. People did a lot of stupid shit before the invention of television.

[Hero of Hyrule]

I liked the idea of this thread to look for reason and truth. Some say Jesus is no more real than Santa Claus! Well, I saw a documentary at the library I want to check out, on Santa Claus. It seems he was a real person, and it seems these accounts of him have gotten way out of hand... and I hope to check out this film today.

 

Santa Claus comes From St. Nicholas who was a real bishop.

All sorts of Stories emeged and a Turkish Chatolic Saint turned into a Spanish Saint who brought presents to a Pole Dweller with Reindeer and even more presents.

 

I think the same is true for Jesus. A Real historic start and a wholle lot of Myths assoicated with Him.

 

Maybe the Real Historic Jesus wasn't even named Jesus but something similiar. That could be an explanation of why he has so little evidence.

On the other hand unmythological people also have very little evidence...

[MQTA]

Hello All!

 

I liked the idea of this thread to look for reason and truth. Some say Jesus is no more real than Santa Claus! Well, I saw a documentary at the library I want to check out, on Santa Claus. It seems he was a real person, and it seems these accounts of him have gotten way out of hand... and I hope to check out this film today.

 

Yes, Saint Nick, in Germany, right? Ran an orphanage or something? Had to do something to try to get the kids in line? So they hung stockings out at night, by the chimney, with care, so the heat would dry them out for the next day. They didn't have dryers back then. If the kids were bad, they'd get a lump of coal in their stockings.

 

I'm sure the original easter bunny was a Real rabbit, too. And Jesus was a Common Name back then.

 

Having said that... it seems what is really important about Jesus is his teachings, or should I say for sake of this thread... the ones attributed to him. Could it be truth that we are to be humble, no one is better or worse than another? Is it truth that we should be meek, having our strengths under a gentle nature? Instead of wanting others to empower ourself, should we struggle to empower others? Is it truth that we are to place our value on internal values instead that of the world, to know who we are based on those values rather than opinions/condemnation of others? Are we to forgive people for our own sake, knowing ALL are doing the best than know how?

 

Sure, good values and lessons and morals and how to treat each other and how to live, all well and good. Great Stuff. I never got any of it out of that book though, it's not in my language, it didn't make much sense before I really started reading into it, and it was best just set aside. But Anton LaVey reached me in 1989 with a book in MY language that made sense to me, and even helped make heads or tails out of the dogma and drama of Christianity and the label Satanism.

 

Then in 1993 I found Wayne Dyer's books. He took all the great masters and wrote books that helped me where I was with sound logic and advice and a way to improve. Totally changed my life. Truly changed my life. NO false pretenses, didn't do it for anyone else, it changed ME, no promises, no absurdity, no bullshit.

 

 

 

 

And why would some people get together and attribute these masterful teachings and much more to a mythical being? It seems to me, it would be like Einstien attributing the theory of relativity to the pink unicorn. What purpose would he have for doing so? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Control of the masses. It works, it keeps many people from killing others, or themselves... but then it also causes the same, too. It's not a good system, but once you're in its grasp, it's hard to let go.

 

Personally, I don't care what anyone believes, but don't tell me I don't know what's best for me. People always told me they thought I Had All the Answers. I just didn't have all the Questions. LOL. But now, I have answers to questions I just let go of years ago, and many I Never knew I had.

 

And thanks to many of you, Still getting answers and perspectives sorted out.

 

Bumper Stickers, jargon, sales pitches, they still make me want to puke though. I'm still waiting for a Christian to tell me something I haven't already heard. Nonchristians and Atheists seem to be able to and often do.

[MQTA]

Santa Claus comes From St. Nicholas who was a real bishop.

All sorts of Stories emeged and a Turkish Chatolic Saint turned into a Spanish Saint who brought presents to a Pole Dweller with Reindeer and even more presents.

 

I think the same is true for Jesus. A Real historic start and a wholle lot of Myths assoicated with Him.

 

Maybe the Real Historic Jesus wasn't even named Jesus but something similiar. That could be an explanation of why he has so little evidence.

On the other hand unmythological people also have very little evidence...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

When someone with a bizarre name goes into Hollywood, it's Changed. Maybe he was really Yitzchock Turtlebaum. You think anyone would pray to him?

 

OH, Yitzchock, Mary and Joseph. Just doesn't come out right. But Oh, Jesus, Mary and Joseph! Has a ring to it. Some people even had H to make it exclaim better. Jesus H Christ!

 

People are funny, most never look in a mirror... the internet is truly culture shock for many of them, I'm sure.

[Mythra]

OH, Yitzchock, Mary and Joseph.  Just doesn't come out right.  But Oh, Jesus, Mary and Joseph!  Has a ring to it.  Some people even had H to make it exclaim better.  Jesus H Christ!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're right! It does have a certain ring to it.

 

Hey - anybody know what the H stands for?

 

I'm pretty sure it's Horatio. Jesus Horatio Christ.

 

Shoulda been E. Then people coulda said Jesus Emmanuel Christ, and claimed fulfillment of prophecy.

[Antlerman]

And why would some people get together and attribute these masterful teachings and much more to a mythical being? It seems to me, it would be like Einstien attributing the theory of relativity to the pink unicorn. What purpose would he have for doing so? 

Greetings Amanda,

 

I find this quote below from Earl Doherty to be an excellent and very likely explanation to the question you pose above. What are your thoughts regarding this? (BTW, the "sayings collection" he refers to is the Q document sayings of Wisdom that the synoptic Gospels later used to create the surrounding historical stories as a platform for the sayings)

 

All sectarian societies tend to read the present back into the past; they personify their own activities in great founding events and heroic progenitors. The very existence of the sayings collection, the product of the evolving community, would have invited attribution to a specific originating and authoritative figure. Such a record set in a glorified past is known as a "foundation document," a universal phenomenon of sectarian expression. (Figures such as Confucius, Lao-Tsu, Lycurgus of Sparta, the medieval Swiss William Tell, as well as other obscure sectarian figures of the ancient world, are examples of founder figures who have come to be regarded as likely non-existent.)

[Ouroboros]

You're right!  It does have a certain ring to it.

 

Hey - anybody know what the H stands for?

Heretic? Hodlum? Horrific? Homie? Homer (like in Simpson)?

 

I'm pretty sure it's Horatio.  Jesus Horatio Christ.

Works too.

 

Shoulda been E.  Then people coulda said Jesus Emmanuel Christ, and claimed fulfillment of prophecy.

You're right! That means Jesus H Christ was the wrong one! J.E.C. got lost in the alps, trying to catch one of the lost sheep (he was too cheap to let it go).

[MQTA]

You're right!  It does have a certain ring to it.

 

Hey - anybody know what the H stands for?

 

I'm pretty sure it's Horatio.  Jesus Horatio Christ.

 

Shoulda been E.  Then people coulda said Jesus Emmanuel Christ, and claimed fulfillment of prophecy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I had to look to make sure nobody else answered this:

 

H = Harold

 

 

Harold? Yeah... what's that prayer?

 

Our Father which art in heaven, Harold be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.

[Ouroboros]

Hollow? Halloween? Hoax? ... No! I know! Jesus Hans Christ! I'm Jesus, didn't ya' know? Glory!

[Mythra]

H = Harold

Harold?  Yeah... what's that prayer?

Our Father which art in heaven, Harold be thy name.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Jesus Harold Christ. That's gotta be it. It's scriptural.

 

[MQTA]

I think hearing it is funnier. Like in Kentucky Fried Movie when Harold had to state his name, he made some gestures and had to explain what he was doing.

[Amanda]

I find this quote below from Earl Doherty to be an excellent and very likely explanation to the question you pose above.  What are your thoughts regarding this?  (BTW, the "sayings collection" he refers to is the Q document sayings of Wisdom that the synoptic Gospels later used to create the surrounding historical stories as a platform for the sayings)

All sectarian societies tend to read the present back into the past; they personify their own activities in great founding events and heroic progenitors. The very existence of the sayings collection, the product of the evolving community, would have invited attribution to a specific originating and authoritative figure. Such a record set in a glorified past is known as a "foundation document," a universal phenomenon of sectarian expression. (Figures such as Confucius, Lao-Tsu, Lycurgus of Sparta, the medieval Swiss William Tell, as well as other obscure sectarian figures of the ancient world, are examples of founder figures who have come to be regarded as likely non-existent.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Antlerman! Thanks for such a thought provoking idea.

 

IF I were to discover that 'Jesus' was a myth... yes, it would shake my foundations a bit. Hopefully I stay open enough to at least consider what others say as possibly being credible though. I have changed my beliefs concerning many aspects. If we're not growing, we're dying.

 

There are lessons in Jesus' teachings that I can not deny as truth. There are insights to some of his healings/miracles that I see duplicated under different names for their techniques not prevalent then, such as hypnosis, yet 'Jesus' emphasized a sacred intent and destination.

 

I was watching a documentary on 'Merlin'. You know, the wizard that helped King Arthur? Well, the character 'Merlin' was based on an actual person! I was surprised! Merlin did not live at the same time as Arthur (who also seems to be an actual person) and Merlin was like a priest for the Druids. It seems he was able to conjure up things via natural ingredients, and was quite intuitive. Perhaps as we come to understand through science more of the knowledge how things manifested, the mystics lose their magical component. Perhaps all those people were real people, just as Santa Claus is, yet their stories may have spiraled out of control... although I don't think it happened via these earliest collected authors of Jesus, it was perhaps later...

 

It seems this idea could go both ways, works/life attributed to a mythical person or myth attributed to a person's works/life. However, I'm curious to know, how it would make you feel, Antlerman, to discover these men you referenced really did exist? Could you start considering their reality as men way ahead of their times... and maybe they are ahead of our times too? Their contributions measuring far beyond any other men, that they have become immortalized in time! Respectfully.... how would that effect your thinking?

[SkepticOfBible]

Perhaps as we come to understand through science more of the knowledge how things manifested, the mystics lose their magical component. Perhaps all those people were real people, just as Santa Claus is, yet their stories may have spiraled out of control... although I don't think it happened via these earliest collected authors of Jesus, it was perhaps later...

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

And what makes you think that Gospel authors didn't exaggerate the events surrounding the life of Jesus?

[daniel_1012]

And what makes you think that Gospel authors didn't exaggerate the events surrounding the life of Jesus?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

All of you have such wonderful answers! They are all so very enlightening. Sure are a lot of deep thinkers here, and I really appreciate it!

 

I think, though I have very little conviction to what I'm about to say, that these things happend in such a way as this. But, I don't know... I suppose everyone could be right, you never know! Wouldn't that be something? Maybe everything we're saying is right about whatever it is you or I say. But, I don't know, what do you think about this certain topic? I am very interested in hearing your point of view!

 

The other day I was watching something and reading something about some topic that I feel will makes it look as if I have an open mind. After all, reading and watching things is what all open minded people do. I must respectfully say, these things are very good and I respectfully disagree, though you might never know it, because I don't really know what I believe! Isn't that crazy! I love this.

 

...

[SkepticOfBible]

All of you have such wonderful answers!  They are all so very enlightening.  Sure are a lot of deep thinkers here, and I really appreciate it!

 

I think, though I have very little conviction to what I'm about to say, that these things happend in such a way as this.  But, I don't know... I suppose everyone could be right, you never know!  Wouldn't that be something?  Maybe everything we're saying is right about whatever it is you or I say.  But, I don't know, what do you think about this certain topic?  I am very interested in hearing your point of view!

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is that a question for me specifically or a general question.

[daniel_1012]

Is that a question for me specifically or a general question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I wasn't directing my post towards anyone particular... I was sort jesting, making a point. We'll see if anyone gets it. No super mystery or anything though, and nothing will be gained or lost if nobody figures it out. Anyways, carry on.

[SkepticOfBible]

No, I wasn't directing my post towards anyone particular... I was sort jesting, making a point.  We'll see if anyone gets it.    No super mystery or anything though, and nothing will be gained or lost if nobody figures it out.  Anyways, carry on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

MMmmmm thought as much. Anyways I am not into pluralism.

[Cerise]

All of you have such wonderful answers!  They are all so very enlightening.  Sure are a lot of deep thinkers here, and I really appreciate it!

 

I think, though I have very little conviction to what I'm about to say, that these things happend in such a way as this.  But, I don't know... I suppose everyone could be right, you never know!  Wouldn't that be something?  Maybe everything we're saying is right about whatever it is you or I say.  But, I don't know, what do you think about this certain topic?  I am very interested in hearing your point of view!

 

The other day I was watching something and reading something about some topic that I feel will makes it look as if I have an open mind.  After all, reading and watching things is what all open minded people do.  I must respectfully say, these things are very good and I respectfully disagree, though you might never know it, because I don't really know what I believe!  Isn't that crazy!  I love this.

 

...

 

Well I suppose its a good thing one of us is having fun here.

 

By the way, was this a sad attempt at mockery, or are you really this vauge and incomprehensible all the time?

[Cerise]

No, I wasn't directing my post towards anyone particular... I was sort jesting, making a point.  We'll see if anyone gets it.    No super mystery or anything though, and nothing will be gained or lost if nobody figures it out.  Anyways, carry on.

 

Ah, so it was a sad attempt at mockery. A very sad attempt. From a very sad man.

 

Oh, brave new world, with such lame people in it!

[Amanda]

And what makes you think that Gospel authors didn't exaggerate the events surrounding the life of Jesus?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just in studying the manuscript from which the KJV was taken, I sense that these writings were not altared significantly... until maybe these transcribers for these different versions, such as KJV, couldn't help but put the spin of the day into their works. In other words... it's just my opinion at the moment Pritish, fwiw.

[SkepticOfBible]

Just in studying the manuscript from which the KJV was taken, I sense that these writings were not altared significantly... until maybe these transcribers for these different versions, such as KJV, couldn't help

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Which Manuscript are you talking about. Many manuscripts of each book differ from each others, others don't even exist? So how do we know that they were copied correctly if you don't even have the orginal.

 

As far as exaggeration goes Paul did a good job of that

 

1 Cor. 15:5-6

and that he(Jesus) appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve; then he(Jesus) appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep;

 

Where is this event and the figure of over 500 people confirmed by any other writers in the New Testament?

Paul gives no geographic location of this mass crowd Jesus that was supposed to have appeared to, nor does he give the names of anyone involved.

Paul himself wasn't among any of these people and was relying on second hand information.

 

Since we are on the topic of exaggerated events, here's a stupendous miracle that was in many ways even bigger than Jesus allegedly rising from the dead.

 

Matt 27:50-53

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

This incredible event, an earthquake, with dead people coming out of their graves(before Jesus rose) and then strolling into town after Jesus was resurrected, and appearing to many others, is a huge event.

An event such as this would certainly be important enough to mention in the historical writings of non-Christians.

Yet, there is nothing about it.

There is nothing but complete silence about this wonderful and monumental event.

Even worse, there isn't one word about it anywhere else in the entire New Testament.

Paul, who was alive at the time and who was in Jerusalem often, never makes one mention of this event is all his writings.

 

The author of Luke, who claims he was writing an accurate account of all the important aspects of Jesus and his death(Luke 1:1-4), says not a single word about this huge event.

Are we to believe that this event wasn't important enough for the accurate historian Luke to mention?

 

 

The author(or authors) of the Gospel of Matthew loved to manufacture prophecy fulfillment by claiming that Jesus was a valid sign from God because he fulfilled prophecy from the Old Testament.

They had no problem ripping verses like Isa 7:14 out of context and claiming it was fulfilled by Jesus, when it was a prophecy that was really fulfilled hundreds of years before Jesus was even born(Matt 1:22-23).

 

 

The event in Matthew 27:50-53 has all the trappings of a manufactured, invented story.

It was most likely an attempt to show another prophecy as being fulfilled.

That prophecy being:

Isa 26:19

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

 

In the mind of the author of Matthew, if it could be claimed that dead people arose when Jesus died, this would help validate Jesus as being a legitimate agent from God. By writing that the dead did actually rise, the author of Matthew creates an aura of credibility to his repeated claims about Jesus being from God and not a false prophet as many of the Jews suspected he was.

 

If this event ever happened, where are those risen "saints" today?

it's just my opinion at the moment Pritish, fwiw. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, I am glad you are not asserting that as a fact.

 

BTW did you know that the first KJV bible had refered to the Deautricanonical books and had also included it in the first editions? Interestly someone down the lane removed. I wonder why?

 

Sources:

A Christian Sermon To Skeptics--Part 1

[MQTA]

And what makes you think that Gospel authors didn't exaggerate the events surrounding the life of Jesus?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exaggerate? exaggerate???? how about totally making them up? What makes those stories any different than any other novels, love stories, tragedies, and comedies, fiction and 'nonfiction', since the printing press?

 

Matthew clearly shows Markian roots and attempts at smoothing over what was either incorrect or not written 'right', so had to be improved upon.

 

If the author of Matthew didn't even like how the author of Mark wrote the Gospel, why should anyone else?

 

I think they shot themselves in the foot by putting those 4 Gospels together. Before computers it was hard to lay it all out side by side and see the glaring errors. Before the internet it was hard to communicate to a larger audience just how absurd the NT really is.

 

They hijacked Judaism and Paganism and created their own fear-based belief system with boogeymen and HELL.

 

If you just give birth to a baby and you're told by everyone your town to baptise the baby or he's going to BURN, baby, BURN, do you think they're goint to take the chance?

 

If nothing else, this religion crap has reached it's usefulness levels. In economics I think they call it the Law of Diminishing Returns. It now does a disservice to mankind, whereas it may have gotten us from the dark ages to the industrial age. They're losing their grasp and causing more problems

 

 

IT'S TIME TO GET REAL!

[Antlerman]

It seems this idea could go both ways, works/life attributed to a mythical person or myth attributed to a person's works/life. However, I'm curious to know, how it would make you feel, Antlerman, to discover these men you referenced really did exist? Could you start considering their reality as men way ahead of their times... and maybe they are ahead of our times too? Their contributions measuring far beyond any other men, that they have become immortalized in time!    Respectfully.... how would that effect your thinking?

Hi Amanda,

 

You raise a good point and I appreciate the question. You are right that it could go the other way too, that there was a historical person who was later embellished to be a figure that walked on water, raised the dead, etc. I think the argument for a historical Jesus is a little less strong than for a mythical one, but the arguments for a mythical Jesus are not overwhelmingly conclusive in themselves either. Therefore it is also fairly possible someone behind the myth really existed - however extremely unlikely he would have been what is portrayed in the Gospels.

 

That said; how would it affect how I feel? Again I respect the Jesus sayings (to call them that). My fist sermon I preached was "Love your neighbor as yourself". Frankly it's the only one that ever needs to be preached anywhere. It is profound in its simplicity. Pretty much all actions of man can be guided by that single thought, really. BUT, that said, it does not make any philosopher who said that (I believe it was one of the Greek philosophers who first said that - Socrates?), a divine person who should be worshipped. Respected yes, admired yes, worshipped - no.

 

So how does it affect me? Neither more nor less than my admiration for any of the world's philosophers that have inspired and provoked thought throughout the ages. However, I'm not going to take Jean Paul Sartre and hang a symbol of his pipe around my neck (except as a joke)

 

The real stickler question would be how would I feel if the Gospels were real historical fact? Now that would be interesting.

[Vulgaris Prime]

All of you have such wonderful answers!  They are all so very enlightening.  Sure are a lot of deep thinkers here, and I really appreciate it!

 

I think, though I have very little conviction to what I'm about to say, that these things happend in such a way as this.  But, I don't know... I suppose everyone could be right, you never know!  Wouldn't that be something?  Maybe everything we're saying is right about whatever it is you or I say.  But, I don't know, what do you think about this certain topic?  I am very interested in hearing your point of view!

 

The other day I was watching something and reading something about some topic that I feel will makes it look as if I have an open mind.  After all, reading and watching things is what all open minded people do.  I must respectfully say, these things are very good and I respectfully disagree, though you might never know it, because I don't really know what I believe!  Isn't that crazy!  I love this.

 

...

 

". . . ."

 

[zfunkman]

Like on this Forum, and like many other forums, and then in the middle of it all, along stumbles somebody like me that has actualy been touched by both God and Jesus on seperate Occasions, and have hardly read the Bible.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Until you actually read the entire bible you will never know what it really says. Your beliefs are only based on hearsay. Why don't you read it? Are you afraid of what you might learn? Or are you not quite intelligent enough to attempt it? You'd think if someone wanted to dedicate their life to a belief based upon a single book that they would want to read said book. From what I've read from you, you may be the most gullible person on this site. And on another note I think you should read some of the testimonies from the some of the members on this site. Many thought and felt just the way you do... and then they actually read the bible.