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Goodbye Jesus

Saved By Faith Or Works?


Thumbelina

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The grace issue actually sucks. The mental imagery I get is a god with his back to us with a big Meh flippant attitude.

 

The works issue is relevant in that one should care for one's fellow beings but w/o a reward factor other than feeling that you have actually done some good in this life or touched someone when they needed it. For that you do not need an invisible friend.

 

If one was saved by grace alone, then there would be no need for us to do anything, it should be all good.

 

Good things happen to bad people and shit things to good people, it is called life.

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The grace issue actually sucks. The mental imagery I get is a god with his back to us with a big Meh flippant attitude.

 

The works issue is relevant in that one should care for one's fellow beings but w/o a reward factor other than feeling that you have actually done some good in this life or touched someone when they needed it. For that you do not need an invisible friend.

 

If one was saved by grace alone, then there would be no need for us to do anything, it should be all good.

 

Good things happen to bad people and shit things to good people, it is called life.

 

 

Good things happen to bad people and shit things to good people, it is called life.

 

That seems to be where it begins. The initial observation. Grace is not only a word that suggests a "god" (back turned or not), but in fact points to realities that I have found fundamental in my own life. Within Buddhism, the word points to the idea that "true reality" is a "given", it exists irrespective of our own seeing. Therefore "enlightenment" is a realisation (of that which already is) not an attainment.

 

As far as works are concerned, if an old lady needs to cross a busy road and we help her do so, she would perhaps have no interest at all in our motives. Yet if our act in helping her involves self-righteousness, if it subsequently involves seeing ourselves as better than others.....we are already beginning to build the fences that destroy empathy and communion between ourselves and our fellow human beings.

 

Mutual forgiveness of each vice opens the gates of paradise (William Blake)

 

For me, "grace" as a given, seen as "gift", intrinsic to Reality-as-is, is the last thing on earth that sucks. Its how we see it I suppose.

 

I've kept it as short as I can - so much more could be said (perhaps deep sighs of relief!)

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Hello Hans, my old friend. Nice to see you too. Hope all is well with you and yours.

 

mick

We're doing well.

 

I'm back in school because I got tired of my profession. Right now, I have to memorize all bones in the human body and correctly side and position them. Yah... :twitch:

 

Kids are great. Two oldest moved out (You've been gone for quite some time.)

 

Other than that, not much happening.

 

--

 

:HaHa:

 

I was looking into maybe buying a disarticulated skeleton for my studies, and stumbled across this review on Amazon for one "bone bag": "Not only was the final product terrible, but when I went to throw them away, one of the pointier ribs tore a hole through the bag, spilling tibulae and fibulae onto the sidewalk. This led to a very awkward conversation with my neighbor, and subsequently, the police. In short, I cannot recommend these bones, nor can I recommend Target store-brand trash bags (kitchen size)."

 

You said the oldest two moved out? How? Very conveient the school/bones/trash bag story. :twitch: (teasing)

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You said the oldest two moved out? How? Very conveient the school/bones/trash bag story. :twitch: (teasing)

:HaHa:

 

No, the story about the bag of bones is from Amazon reviews. I'm taking an anthropology class where we have to learn all the bones and their positions. So I was looking into buying a skeleton for my studies. So I stumbled upon a review on Amazon for one cheap set of bones (they're plastic cast, not real bones), and I thought the review was funny.

 

I'm not sure if those plastic bones were saved by grace, faith, or works. :shrug:

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[snip]

She's a crackpot.

 

What the hell are you doing back? Good to see ya.

 

mwc

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Nice to see you back, Mythra. It has been a long time.

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Now I'll have to spend the rest of the day in deep contemplation of this complex and erstwhile question.

 

Or burn one and ponder my belly button.

 

Belly button it is.

 

Good choice. A much more productive use of time.

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Mythra!

 

WB man!

 

Bones and burning one... What a choice!

 

:)

 

kL

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How can I know that the bible is reliable? Why should I care about this book?

 

Your entire argument is worthless, because it does not help people to know if they are "true" christians. How do you know, that the "good works" are based upon the holy whatsoever and not upon peergroup pressure or the fact that you "really want to try it"? It is a cruel way to prove ones salvation, because you will never know if someone is saved or not.

 

If you’re truly saved you will show a definite change in behavior. The fruit of the Spirit will be made manifest in you. You are also able to discern that still small voice more and more. You will be eager to know about God and spend time with Him. There should be a perpetual meeting with God and the bible promises that "and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

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If you’re truly saved you will show a definite change in behavior.

Then there are not many truly saved in the world.

 

On the other hand, many non-Christian are then saved as well since many have changed behavior through other studies and beliefs.

 

Besides, do you believe, like many Christians, that people can become Christian by making laws that enforces Christian morality on all people in the country? Will people become "truly saved" through moral laws?

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If you’re truly saved you will show a definite change in behavior.

Then there are not many truly saved in the world.

 

On the other hand, many non-Christian are then saved as well since many have changed behavior through other studies and beliefs.

 

Besides, do you believe, like many Christians, that people can become Christian by making laws that enforces Christian morality on all people in the country? Will people become "truly saved" through moral laws?

 

Hey Mr. Mcnaughty :), Christ is the way, if someone knew Him or of Him and left then ... . However, they can go back to Him.

Forced faith is false faith. Faith worketh by LOVE.

Hence, no church and state! Freedom to choose!

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The grace issue actually sucks. The mental imagery I get is a god with his back to us with a big Meh flippant attitude.

 

The works issue is relevant in that one should care for one's fellow beings but w/o a reward factor other than feeling that you have actually done some good in this life or touched someone when they needed it. For that you do not need an invisible friend.

If one was saved by grace alone, then there would be no need for us to do anything, it should be all good.

 

Good things happen to bad people and shit things to good people, it is called life.

 

Mr. Snark, you inspired this thread.

Regarding what I highlighted, it is impossible to truly do good without God. You are right though, a person should be selfless, just like God.

 

God things happen to both good and bad people, it's called living on a cursed planet.

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By the Covenant, we are saved by faith alone.

 

Yet what is "faith"? To be more specific, what is the faith specified in the Covenant which qualifies our salvation. James it is not the kind of faith the devils possessed, it is rather the kind of faith supported and reflected by your good deeds. That is, if your faith is not the correct kind of faith specified in the Covenant, it will be reflected by your behavior. If on the other hand, you faith is the correct kind of faith, it also will be reflected by your behavior. That's why James said that faith without work is dead.

 

Now what is "good deeds" actually are then?

 

For the sake of easier understanding, it is easy, just to make Jesus Christ satisfactory about you. He's satisfied, then you are saved. He's not satisfied, then you are done. Simple as that. This is His right gained through His self-sacrifice. Putting in His own words, He has conquered death. Law will be used to judge non-Christians only. Law has no effect on Christians (those satisfied by Jesus Christ and God). So to Christians, Jesus Christ is the Law. When He said "yes" then you are saved. When He said, "I don't know you, depart from me", then you are done (you'll be handed over to the Law to judge).

 

Theologically it is so. Whether you'd like to believe is none of my business.

 

1. The "correct kind of faith"? Faith is subjective. This is why I hate christians, coz they think they can tell other people how to have faith.

 

2. Jesus has to be "satisfied". What do we get, a fax confirmation that we are satisfactory? This is why I hate christians, they provide you with an open ended deal which has no basis in reality and can also serve to have you constantly wondering whether you make the grade or not.

 

3. "Theologically it is so". Thanks for that god the second. This is why I hate christians, because they believe something is theologically so because it has been confirmed by 2000 years of other self serving assholes who used the bible to grab power and control people.

 

4. You are right walker it is none of your business. So go away and stop hounding us with principles we have ALREADY rejected. We don't CARE mate. This is why I hate christians, coz they don't know when to shut up. Just more evidence that they really couldn't give a shit about people other than to shove stuff down their throat. Somebody pass me a flamethrower.

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The grace issue actually sucks. The mental imagery I get is a god with his back to us with a big Meh flippant attitude.

 

The works issue is relevant in that one should care for one's fellow beings but w/o a reward factor other than feeling that you have actually done some good in this life or touched someone when they needed it. For that you do not need an invisible friend.

If one was saved by grace alone, then there would be no need for us to do anything, it should be all good.

 

Good things happen to bad people and shit things to good people, it is called life.

 

Mr. Snark, you inspired this thread.

Regarding what I highlighted, it is impossible to truly do good without God. You are right though, a person should be selfless, just like God.

 

God things happen to both good and bad people, it's called living on a cursed planet.

 

You really don't get out much do you girly. It is NOT impossible to do good without god. If you had the slightest idea what respect for anyone was, you would do us all a favour and GO AWAY. Yet you still spout this shit 24/7. We are EX christians, we already know. We don't CARE. Wrap your tiny brain about that, if you dare.

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Mr. Snark, you inspired this thread.

Regarding what I highlighted, it is impossible to truly do good without God. You are right though, a person should be selfless, just like God.

 

God things happen to both good and bad people, it's called living on a cursed planet.

 

Here we go again...

Really, do you think before you post this nonsense? I really don't know why you keep doing this.

I guess you get a kick out of riling us godless heathens up. Nice.

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God things happen to both good and bad people, it's called living on a cursed planet.

I am sure this is a misquote but the irony is fabulous. However if the planet is cursed, no one is forcing you to stay here, there is an out. Oh I forgot, you are only allowed to kill others not yourself :scratch:

 

However if you meant what you said, then seems there is no reason to give any cognizance to to the god that cursed the planet.

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a person should be selfless, just like God.

A god who names himself 'Jealous' and uses up the first four commandments on telling people to worship him is your model of how to be 'selfless' … how funny!

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But the babble says that miracles are supposed to follow them who believe! True believers can perform wonderful miracles and they won't die if they drink poison or get bit by a poisonous snake! Obviously snakes no longer talk cus god gave them fangs and it's so damned hard to talk with teeth curving in the back of your throat. So, before we go any further in discussion, just so I know you are a True Believer™ bringing us the True Gospel™ of the one and only True Jesus™, will you drink some battery acid and jump in a pit of vipers for me? It could change my life so much if you would do these few things for me right now while Jesus is still your co-pilot. The warmth I get from your religious spewings just warms my heart at night so please, just for me, drink up and jump in.

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If you’re truly saved you will show a definite change in behavior. The fruit of the Spirit will be made manifest in you. You are also able to discern that still small voice more and more. You will be eager to know about God and spend time with Him. There should be a perpetual meeting with God and the bible promises that "and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

You have a definite change in behavior because you definitely wanted to change, hence the conversion/renewal of faith. You want badly enough to change, and the faith works as a placebo making you think there's a literal ghost floating down from the heavens to inhabit your body and make you want to do these things. Then the faith takes credit for what you did for yourself so you feel helpless without it. It's a virus.

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You will be eager to know about God and spend time with Him.

Fact: An existent human cannot spend time with things that don't exist.

 

If someone hallucinates that a non-existent person is real and insists on spending time with them, then they are probably psychotic and should be approached with extreme caution.

 

Have you been evaluated for psychosis and schizophrenia yet, or checked for possible brain damage?

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How can I know that the bible is reliable? Why should I care about this book?

 

Your entire argument is worthless, because it does not help people to know if they are "true" christians. How do you know, that the "good works" are based upon the holy whatsoever and not upon peergroup pressure or the fact that you "really want to try it"? It is a cruel way to prove ones salvation, because you will never know if someone is saved or not.

 

If you’re truly saved you will show a definite change in behavior. The fruit of the Spirit will be made manifest in you. You are also able to discern that still small voice more and more. You will be eager to know about God and spend time with Him. There should be a perpetual meeting with God and the bible promises that "and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

 

You are not answering my questions. "

How do you know, that the "good works" are based upon the holy whatsoever and not upon peergroup pressure or the fact that you "really want to try it"?

 

Or what happens if the "good works" become less with the years? Have you never been a "TRUE" christian then?

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Hey Mr. Mcnaughty :), Christ is the way, if someone knew Him or of Him and left then ... . However, they can go back to Him.

Not according to your book.

 

Hebrews 6:4-6 says: It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

 

Some xians deal with this by saying that we ex-christians were never True ChristiansTM to begin with*.

 

I have also met xians who claim that me and my ilk are just "backsliden," and we are still saved and just need to get right with god*. At the extreme, I've even encountered one or two that would make a claim like, "I am saved by grace, not by works, and I could go out and kill a person right now, and still go straight to heaven."

 

There are also xians who just don't pick this cherry at all, and ignore the verse or find some way to explain it away if confronted with it. You seem like you are probably one of those.

 

There's a 4th category I would expect, but I've NEVER ever met one of these: some of them could say, "Yeah, you were saved, but you blew it. It's a done deal now, you're going to hell, and there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop it." In fact, that what the verse says right there in black and white, so it amazes me that every xian I've ever met denies it.

 

I'd like to know why you think that a person can come back from being an apostate in light of Hebrews 6.

 

*Of course we were christians, and are now ex-christians, not backsliden. It turns out nobody is "saved" by a god that turned out not to exist.

 

--------

 

And speaking of picking cherries, your fellow xians are not united on the faith / works issue. Interesting enough, they all use the same bible to defend their particular viewpoints.

 

--------

 

Finally, @Mythra: Great to hear from you! Hope you've been doing well. It really has been "long time no see!"

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How can I know that the bible is reliable? Why should I care about this book?

 

Your entire argument is worthless, because it does not help people to know if they are "true" christians. How do you know, that the "good works" are based upon the holy whatsoever and not upon peergroup pressure or the fact that you "really want to try it"? It is a cruel way to prove ones salvation, because you will never know if someone is saved or not.

 

If you’re truly saved you will show a definite change in behavior. The fruit of the Spirit will be made manifest in you. You are also able to discern that still small voice more and more. You will be eager to know about God and spend time with Him. There should be a perpetual meeting with God and the bible promises that "and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

 

You are not answering my questions. "

How do you know, that the "good works" are based upon the holy whatsoever and not upon peergroup pressure or the fact that you "really want to try it"?

 

Or what happens if the "good works" become less with the years? Have you never been a "TRUE" christian then?

 

 

 

Caveat: I am answering this question because I was asked.

 

There's no cut and dried answer to that because it is between the individual and God. We know that God justifies us when we accept Him into our lives but it does not stop there, we need to continue spending time with Him in prayer and devotions and that opens up communication between the believer and God. There's nothing wrong with doing good deeds but if the believer thinks that their heart is deceiving them then God may make a way to let them know or the believer should pray this prayer:

 

Psalm 26:2 Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.

 

Psalm 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

 

God will answer it in His time. The key is not to give up for God had said "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."; so, it's the believers choice to leave God.

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Hey Mr. Mcnaughty :), Christ is the way, if someone knew Him or of Him and left then ... . However, they can go back to Him.

Not according to your book.

 

Hebrews 6:4-6 says: It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

 

Some xians deal with this by saying that we ex-christians were never True ChristiansTM to begin with*.

 

I have also met xians who claim that me and my ilk are just "backsliden," and we are still saved and just need to get right with god*. At the extreme, I've even encountered one or two that would make a claim like, "I am saved by grace, not by works, and I could go out and kill a person right now, and still go straight to heaven."

 

There are also xians who just don't pick this cherry at all, and ignore the verse or find some way to explain it away if confronted with it. You seem like you are probably one of those.

 

There's a 4th category I would expect, but I've NEVER ever met one of these: some of them could say, "Yeah, you were saved, but you blew it. It's a done deal now, you're going to hell, and there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop it." In fact, that what the verse says right there in black and white, so it amazes me that every xian I've ever met denies it.

 

I'd like to know why you think that a person can come back from being an apostate in light of Hebrews 6.

 

*Of course we were christians, and are now ex-christians, not backsliden. It turns out nobody is "saved" by a god that turned out not to exist.

 

--------

 

And speaking of picking cherries, your fellow xians are not united on the faith / works issue. Interesting enough, they all use the same bible to defend their particular viewpoints.

 

--------

 

Finally, @Mythra: Great to hear from you! Hope you've been doing well. It really has been "long time no see!"

 

 

Hey Shack what are you doing over here? I still have to get to our thread. That text in Hebrews is referring to someone who chooses to perpetually be in a lost condition.

 

The once saved always saved is not logical or biblical; that's a spin on that predestination doctrine I suppose.

 

About other people judging/condemning you, the bible says: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." 1 Corinthians 4:5

 

They CANNOT read your heart! People do fall away but that does not mean they weren't sincere at some point before falling away.

 

I did not answer this post thoroughly ( I have other posts that I'm working on) but if you go back and forth in the bible with the cross references it will show that the unpardonable sin is when someone reached such a low point of resisting God that they can't respond to the Holy Spirit anymore and they are eventually lost.

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Mr. Snark, you inspired this thread.

Regarding what I highlighted, it is impossible to truly do good without God. You are right though, a person should be selfless, just like God.

 

God things happen to both good and bad people, it's called living on a cursed planet.

 

Here we go again...

Really, do you think before you post this nonsense? I really don't know why you keep doing this.

I guess you get a kick out of riling us godless heathens up. Nice.

 

 

 

Yes, riling or stirring up the atheists: "Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting [you] in remembrance;" 2 Peter 1:13 It's called homiletics. I know you were referring to my comments in another thread. Did it rile you up?

 

 

I'm sorry, Here'n There had asked some questions over in the Colosseum and I wanted to address at least this topic so I started this thread.

About my comments, I was referring to everyone, including Christians. Heathens can do good deeds, the Holy Spirit strives with all of us.

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