Antlerman Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 How can you not acknowledge everthing that is, as is? I always thought that the essence of being a christian was EXACTLY that. Raw truth. That is why I have so much trouble living in this world, because I am willing to acknowldege what is there, warts and all and a lot of people aren't. I truly do not understand this constant quest for escape from the real. Surely maturity requires a logical assessment of a situation looking at all the possible contingencies without freaking out, assuming the worst and letting your emotions run riot. Why is this so hard? Accept starvation, murder, adultry?? I gathered that AM was describing leading a life of walking along accepting all these things "as is". The consensus is that "as is" has the potential to suck at times. How is his perspective not a religion in itself?? This is truly a puzzling response in your description of what you imagine my thoughts are. None of this bears any resemblance to my thoughts. You pull, you shoot, you miss by an acre or two off target. In no way do I accept injustice as OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 How can you not acknowledge everthing that is, as is? I always thought that the essence of being a christian was EXACTLY that. Raw truth. That is why I have so much trouble living in this world, because I am willing to acknowldege what is there, warts and all and a lot of people aren't. I truly do not understand this constant quest for escape from the real. Surely maturity requires a logical assessment of a situation looking at all the possible contingencies without freaking out, assuming the worst and letting your emotions run riot. Why is this so hard? Accept starvation, murder, adultry?? I gathered that AM was describing leading a life of walking along accepting all these things "as is". The consensus is that "as is" has the potential to suck at times. How is his perspective not a religion in itself?? This is truly a puzzling response in your description of what you imagine my thoughts are. None of this bears any resemblance to my thoughts. You pull, you shoot, you miss by an acre or two off target. Lol...you should be used to it by now. We will get there....don't give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Lol...you should be used to it by now. We will get there....don't give up. Yes, but the problem is you're falling further back. You do need to participate more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 What's the point? I would think a faithful adherence to practicing being a good human...whether that is only by obdience at times or possibly who we become over time. Obviously in your opinion it is full of traps. LOL.....the Bible says that, no? I will always practice being a good human, I always have. But these days I realise it has nothing to do with a god or christianity. Obedience? I cannot imagine an entity who holds me to higher standards than I hold myself, so I guess its a moot point really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 How can you not acknowledge everthing that is, as is? I always thought that the essence of being a christian was EXACTLY that. Raw truth. That is why I have so much trouble living in this world, because I am willing to acknowldege what is there, warts and all and a lot of people aren't. I truly do not understand this constant quest for escape from the real. Surely maturity requires a logical assessment of a situation looking at all the possible contingencies without freaking out, assuming the worst and letting your emotions run riot. Why is this so hard? Accept starvation, murder, adultry?? I gathered that AM was describing leading a life of walking along accepting all these things "as is". The consensus is that "as is" has the potential to suck at times. How is his perspective not a religion in itself?? This is truly a puzzling response in your description of what you imagine my thoughts are. None of this bears any resemblance to my thoughts. You pull, you shoot, you miss by an acre or two off target. In no way do I accept injustice as OK. We mean accepting that they exist, not that they are okay. There is no point hiding inside any kind of protective bubble and pretending shit doesn't happen. In 1994 I saw a photo of a pile of dead children 20 feet high. This is who we are capable of being as a race End. I cannot pretend otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I have an essential question for the half-orthodox amongst us. End, how do you imagine Christ frees us from fear? How do you propose faith in how you see this, offers a viable release that satisfies, and not simply by-passes our anxieties with the promise of an imagined tomorrow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 To live in fear is to not live free. We fear the loss of what we look to possess. We look to possess what we imagine gives us life. If we release our hold on others or things, then we no longer fear their loss, then we truly live and genuinely enjoy as them truly as they are, in the present. Fear is usually a sign for us to look into why we fear loss. Freedom possess nothing. Yeah, my brain is sluggish...has been for a month or two now.....can't place blame anywhere....the Celexa maybe. Nonetheless, here is where I gathered that you advocate walking freely enjoying things as they are. I will be happy for you to describe how rape, murder, adultry, etc...are not "as they are". I think I am not the only one in this conversation that took that as your message....RS and Phanta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 To live in fear is to not live free. We fear the loss of what we look to possess. We look to possess what we imagine gives us life. If we release our hold on others or things, then we no longer fear their loss, then we truly live and genuinely enjoy as them truly as they are, in the present. Fear is usually a sign for us to look into why we fear loss. Freedom possess nothing. Yeah, my brain is sluggish...has been for a month or two now.....can't place blame anywhere....the Celexa maybe. Nonetheless, here is where I gathered that you advocate walking freely enjoying things as they are. I will be happy for you to describe how rape, murder, adultry, etc...are not "as they are". I think I am not the only one in this conversation that took that as your message....RS and Phanta. It must be meds. This is 6,000,000 miles off the mark. I'm sorry you're struggling with that shit. It's a bitch. You have my compassion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 To live in fear is to not live free. We fear the loss of what we look to possess. We look to possess what we imagine gives us life. If we release our hold on others or things, then we no longer fear their loss, then we truly live and genuinely enjoy as them truly as they are, in the present. Fear is usually a sign for us to look into why we fear loss. Freedom possess nothing. Yeah, my brain is sluggish...has been for a month or two now.....can't place blame anywhere....the Celexa maybe. Nonetheless, here is where I gathered that you advocate walking freely enjoying things as they are. I will be happy for you to describe how rape, murder, adultry, etc...are not "as they are". I think I am not the only one in this conversation that took that as your message....RS and Phanta. Depression sucks and blows, and for me, christianity just made it shitloads worse. Apparently I just wasn't looking at things the way I should have been. Which just made me feel guilty on top of feeling depressed. I hope you win your battle End, depression is an evil mistress. Humans are equally capable of great evil and great altruism. Both extremes just.........are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 How can you not acknowledge everthing that is, as is? I always thought that the essence of being a christian was EXACTLY that. Raw truth. That is why I have so much trouble living in this world, because I am willing to acknowldege what is there, warts and all and a lot of people aren't. I truly do not understand this constant quest for escape from the real. Surely maturity requires a logical assessment of a situation looking at all the possible contingencies without freaking out, assuming the worst and letting your emotions run riot. Why is this so hard? Accept starvation, murder, adultry?? I gathered that AM was describing leading a life of walking along accepting all these things "as is". The consensus is that "as is" has the potential to suck at times. How is his perspective not a religion in itself?? This is truly a puzzling response in your description of what you imagine my thoughts are. None of this bears any resemblance to my thoughts. You pull, you shoot, you miss by an acre or two off target. In no way do I accept injustice as OK. We mean accepting that they exist, not that they are okay. There is no point hiding inside any kind of protective bubble and pretending shit doesn't happen. In 1994 I saw a photo of a pile of dead children 20 feet high. This is who we are capable of being as a race End. I cannot pretend otherwise. I don't acknowledge evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Thank you both for the sentiments. I am not depressed. I am mean. Those type meds allow me to internalize my thoughts without them coming out of my mouth. I guess they make me dull enough where the argument is not worth the effort. What's the word...profilactic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 How can you not acknowledge everthing that is, as is? I always thought that the essence of being a christian was EXACTLY that. Raw truth. That is why I have so much trouble living in this world, because I am willing to acknowldege what is there, warts and all and a lot of people aren't. I truly do not understand this constant quest for escape from the real. Surely maturity requires a logical assessment of a situation looking at all the possible contingencies without freaking out, assuming the worst and letting your emotions run riot. Why is this so hard? Accept starvation, murder, adultry?? I gathered that AM was describing leading a life of walking along accepting all these things "as is". The consensus is that "as is" has the potential to suck at times. How is his perspective not a religion in itself?? This is truly a puzzling response in your description of what you imagine my thoughts are. None of this bears any resemblance to my thoughts. You pull, you shoot, you miss by an acre or two off target. In no way do I accept injustice as OK. We mean accepting that they exist, not that they are okay. There is no point hiding inside any kind of protective bubble and pretending shit doesn't happen. In 1994 I saw a photo of a pile of dead children 20 feet high. This is who we are capable of being as a race End. I cannot pretend otherwise. I don't acknowledge evil? What I am saying is that no amount of christianity or god bothering can change it. It just is what it is. You can choose to reframe in in any way that makes it bearable for you. My personal preference is to face it head on with no manufactured ideas to cushion it. No jesus, no afterliffe sitting on a cloud, no pretending there is actually any comfort in god at all, because I sure as hell never found any. Its because I cannot accept bullshit, no matter how pretty a package it is wrapped in. Why do christians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I have an essential question for the half-orthodox amongst us. End, how do you imagine Christ frees us from fear? How do you propose faith in how you see this, offers a viable release that satisfies, and not simply by-passes our anxieties with the promise of an imagined tomorrow? You argue for "the moment". Freedom in Christ allows for in the moment, in Love.....in reality, not imagined. I have been answered in faith that has satisfied many times. Are we always capable of acknowledging our anxieties at any given stage of our development? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I have an essential question for the half-orthodox amongst us. End, how do you imagine Christ frees us from fear? How do you propose faith in how you see this, offers a viable release that satisfies, and not simply by-passes our anxieties with the promise of an imagined tomorrow? You argue for "the moment". Freedom in Christ allows for in the moment, in Love.....in reality, not imagined. I have been answered in faith that has satisfied many times. Are we always capable of acknowledging our anxieties at any given stage of our development? No. Um....I have always been able to, doesn't everyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I have an essential question for the half-orthodox amongst us. End, how do you imagine Christ frees us from fear? How do you propose faith in how you see this, offers a viable release that satisfies, and not simply by-passes our anxieties with the promise of an imagined tomorrow? You argue for "the moment". Freedom in Christ allows for in the moment, in Love.....in reality, not imagined. I have been answered in faith that has satisfied many times. Are we always capable of acknowledging our anxieties at any given stage of our development? No. Um....I have always been able to, doesn't everyone? I don't believe that Gal....that you were able to acknowledge and deal with your anxieties by the means you describe. I can't imagine a child with that ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I have an essential question for the half-orthodox amongst us. End, how do you imagine Christ frees us from fear? How do you propose faith in how you see this, offers a viable release that satisfies, and not simply by-passes our anxieties with the promise of an imagined tomorrow? You argue for "the moment". Freedom in Christ allows for in the moment, in Love.....in reality, not imagined. I have been answered in faith that has satisfied many times. Are we always capable of acknowledging our anxieties at any given stage of our development? No. Um....I have always been able to, doesn't everyone? I don't believe that Gal....that you were able to acknowledge and deal with your anxieties by the means you describe. I can't imagine a child with that ability. "Mommy, I'm scared! I'm afraid someone will come into my room and get me!" "Daddy, I don't want to go to school. The kids will make fun of me!" "I feel like it's my fault that we lost our home. Mommy and daddy had to buy me food and clothes." ( I heard this one from an elementary school child on 60 minutes this past Sunday). Kids are able to acknowledged anxiety. Not all kids have that capacity. Some kids are "stuffers" who hold their feelings in until they either blow up emotionally or things eat away at them and they exhibit dysfunctional symptoms. But a good number of kids can certainly acknowledge anxiety - even on a profound level. I think Galien's point is quite realistic. I believe children can acknowledge anxiety to themselves and turn it into an internal commitment to overcome anxiety. With good role models and nurturing parents, kids can learn to do this. Do you have some unique definition of "acknowledge" which somehow excludes young children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I have an essential question for the half-orthodox amongst us. End, how do you imagine Christ frees us from fear? How do you propose faith in how you see this, offers a viable release that satisfies, and not simply by-passes our anxieties with the promise of an imagined tomorrow? You argue for "the moment". Freedom in Christ allows for in the moment, in Love.....in reality, not imagined. I have been answered in faith that has satisfied many times. Are we always capable of acknowledging our anxieties at any given stage of our development? No. Um....I have always been able to, doesn't everyone? I don't believe that Gal....that you were able to acknowledge and deal with your anxieties by the means you describe. I can't imagine a child with that ability. "Mommy, I'm scared! I'm afraid someone will come into my room and get me!" "Daddy, I don't want to go to school. The kids will make fun of me!" "I feel like it's my fault that we lost our home. Mommy and daddy had to buy me food and clothes." ( I heard this one from an elementary school child on 60 minutes this past Sunday). Kids are able to acknowledged anxiety. Not all kids have that capacity. Some kids are "stuffers" who hold their feelings in until they either blow up emotionally or things eat away at them and they exhibit dysfunctional symptoms. But a good number of kids can certainly acknowledge anxiety - even on a profound level. I think Galien's point is quite realistic. I believe children can acknowledge anxiety to themselves and turn it into an internal commitment to overcome anxiety. With good role models and nurturing parents, kids can learn to do this. Do you have some unique definition of "acknowledge" which somehow excludes young children? To my knowledge OB she was talking acknowledging and accepting. We acknowledge by default I imagine. We do not readily accept as a means of coping was my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I have an essential question for the half-orthodox amongst us. End, how do you imagine Christ frees us from fear? How do you propose faith in how you see this, offers a viable release that satisfies, and not simply by-passes our anxieties with the promise of an imagined tomorrow? You argue for "the moment". Freedom in Christ allows for in the moment, in Love.....in reality, not imagined. I have been answered in faith that has satisfied many times. Are we always capable of acknowledging our anxieties at any given stage of our development? No. Um....I have always been able to, doesn't everyone? I don't believe that Gal....that you were able to acknowledge and deal with your anxieties by the means you describe. I can't imagine a child with that ability. I was a gifted child end, I only recently discovered that. No one much cares about that kind of thing on a backdrop of violence and abuse. But I have always been very self aware and blessed with a capacity to be brave in the face of some pretty nasty shit. I pegged my parents for idiots when I was about six, but I had a set of very lovely grandparents who made some effort to give me some kindness and structure. Because part of my giftedness is about interpreting text, even as a very young child I took the bible literally, as in I was meant to completely emulate jesus. As in be perfect. Sadly I wasn't smart enough to work out that I wasn't jesus, and neither did I have any adults around me smart enough to realise that is what I was doing, or to help me stop. That kind of intensity can only lead to one place, and that is obsession, depression, anxiety and self abuse. Took me 46 years to realise what I was doing to myself, and take steps to end it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I have an essential question for the half-orthodox amongst us. End, how do you imagine Christ frees us from fear? How do you propose faith in how you see this, offers a viable release that satisfies, and not simply by-passes our anxieties with the promise of an imagined tomorrow? You argue for "the moment". Freedom in Christ allows for in the moment, in Love.....in reality, not imagined. I have been answered in faith that has satisfied many times. Are we always capable of acknowledging our anxieties at any given stage of our development? No. Um....I have always been able to, doesn't everyone? I don't believe that Gal....that you were able to acknowledge and deal with your anxieties by the means you describe. I can't imagine a child with that ability. I was a gifted child end, I only recently discovered that. No one much cares about that kind of thing on a backdrop of violence and abuse. But I have always been very self aware and blessed with a capacity to be brave in the face of some pretty nasty shit. I pegged my parents for idiots when I was about six, but I had a set of very lovely grandparents who made some effort to give me some kindness and structure. Because part of my giftedness is about interpreting text, even as a very young child I took the bible literally, as in I was meant to completely emulate jesus. As in be perfect. Sadly I wasn't smart enough to work out that I wasn't jesus, and neither did I have any adults around me smart enough to realise that is what I was doing, or to help me stop. That kind of intensity can only lead to one place, and that is obsession, depression, anxiety and self abuse. Took me 46 years to realise what I was doing to myself, and take steps to end it. Now that I can understand. Thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Thank you both for the sentiments. I am not depressed. I am mean. Those type meds allow me to internalize my thoughts without them coming out of my mouth. I guess they make me dull enough where the argument is not worth the effort. What's the word...profilactic? Someone has medicated you because you are mean? If things come out of your mouth end, they come out for a reason. So like these poor little kids with add, they medicate you because you are you? Hmm. Be as mean as you like, I am always ready to listen. You sound a lot more world weary than you do mean. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Thank you both for the sentiments. I am not depressed. I am mean. Those type meds allow me to internalize my thoughts without them coming out of my mouth. I guess they make me dull enough where the argument is not worth the effort. What's the word...profilactic? As with any of these sorts of treatments, though I'm no doctor by any means, I personally see them as temporary measures to settle down things enough to learn tools to manage them without medications. I don't see them on the level of say schizophrenia where they usually can't manage without meds. I believe we can sufficiently learn to manage things like depression and anxiety, or in your case anger issues, without medications 'dulling' us. Things like anxiety, or fear since that's the topic, can be managed by the practice of such things like mindfulness in meditation, or more active cognitive behavioral therapies. I do know of some traditional Western medical doctors who acknowledge this and sometimes recommend the practice of mindfulness to patients instead of the route of just dumping chemicals into you. In other words, take advantage of calming the storm to look inside to root causes in your life and make adjustments as necessary, but more importantly learn means or techniques to manage them. How often do you ever still your thoughts? It's a good practice to begin to recognize that your thoughts don't define you, nor control you. It's a simple thing really to step back with a different perspective on yourself and from there to realize feelings and emotions and thoughts are simply things happening in your body, rather than "you" being caught inside the swirl of them all, tossed and battered about in the storms. From there, you can then go much deeper should you wish, into the very nature of who is that Witness if you will, but certainly, to take control in learning how to manage one's own emotions and responses (not suppress or deny them) is the beginning of true freedom and growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanta Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Thank you both for the sentiments. I am not depressed. I am mean. Those type meds allow me to internalize my thoughts without them coming out of my mouth. I guess they make me dull enough where the argument is not worth the effort. What's the word...profilactic? Apathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I have many fears. I fear getting violently sick, or getting hit by a car and becoming a paraplegic, or losing limbs. I fear losing my job, my family and friends. I fear losing my expensive electronics and so on. But none of these fears are fears that I spend longer than a second contemplating and then discarding. I live in a country where I have little to fear. If I get a job, I cannot be dismissed easily. I am entitled to paid sick leave and holiday pay every year. So long as I do my job, no matter how much the company dislikes me personally, I am here to stay and bad luck to them. The only way to lose my job other than it being my fault is if it shuts down due to bankruptcy or whatever and even if I lose my job, I have an income until I find one. I lose my home, I'll have one provided to me until I feel the need to leave. If I wish to get an education I simply sign my name on the dotted line and pay off the bill as I see fit, taking as much time as I want. If I get seriously ill, I don't have to worry about having the money to take care of the cost of the medications and procedures. There is little to fear in terms of my quality of life. My only real fears are me wasting away my potential, which I am slowly fighting against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 In other words, take advantage of calming the storm to look inside to root causes in your life and make adjustments as necessary, but more importantly learn means or techniques to manage them. How often do you ever still your thoughts? It's a good practice to begin to recognize that your thoughts don't define you, nor control you. It's a simple thing really to step back with a different perspective on yourself and from there to realize feelings and emotions and thoughts are simply things happening in your body, rather than "you" being caught inside the swirl of them all, tossed and battered about in the storms. From there, you can then go much deeper should you wish, into the very nature of who is that Witness if you will, but certainly, to take control in learning how to manage one's own emotions and responses (not suppress or deny them) is the beginning of true freedom and growth. Still my thoughts like repeating a prayer? You know, this seems to be talking about satisfaction or learning to deal with "average".....average being that, well, "many people have this same problem", etc. "Look at yourself and don't take it so hard.....many people have these issues". "Maybe the other person is having a hard day". My big question is, does learning to adequately deal with "average" mean that average is what we have in our hearts? I don't see it as something to learn to live with. Anger management is basically tools to do this very same thing....question your own thoughts, learn to live with..... Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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