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Having a lot of triggers this week! Someone feel like talking some sense into me?

 

I was stumbling on the net and found an atheist blog. One of his entries was asking people to convert him. As I was reading responses, one stuck out to me. It was about Negative NDEs. I've looked into NDE and not had an emotional response but this time I did. Why do negative NDE hold so much more emotional weight for me than positive ones?

 

I'm taking the kids to a town carnival this week and all the people from my church are there and I'm going to have see them and interact with them and I find myself "in my head" more than normal. It's depressing to feel so alone.

 

Last week I got the news that my daughter's best friend isn't allowed to spend the night at our house anymore. I'm guessing it's because of my "evil" beliefs or influence or something to that effect.

 

Last night, after I got back from the carnival, I sat and was just wondering what if I'm wrong? Feeling guilty.... feeling inadequate..... unsure. I even gave myself permission to "go back" if that's what I need. I felt released from all the guilt when I gave myself permission to "go back". I'm not going back. It seems that giving myself permission to say it's something that I *might* need gave me the opportunity to explore MY feelings (and not THEIR perceived feelings). I know that I could never go back and that I don't want to but still I'm just feeling overwhelmed.

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I know that I could never go back and that I don't want to but still I'm just feeling overwhelmed.

 

There it is then isn't it? You can't "unknow" something, so it's best to just get on with it.

 

"Live well. It is the greatest revenge" As people see that you are, gasp, a normal parent with a normal life the uniqueness of your religious beliefs will wear off. And they'll find someone else to gossip about. Church people are good at that, it's their job.

Oh, and NDE's of any sort are just an oxygen starved brain hallucinating.

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This is going to be a crazy response, but an honest one coming from where I am in my head right now at this minute.

 

I am not sure if I will ever cross over the line into atheism. Agnostic sounds so much 'safer' for me. Makes me more comfortable with in my self.

 

I envy those on the board who are so confident when they proclaim their non-belief.I am just not there yet. You know the old cliché' that says,''there are no atheists in foxholes?'' Well, that would be me. I can just hear me, crying out for god at my last breath. Maybe I won't in time. I am telling you how I feel right now.

 

I do not ever want to go back to church - that is 100% - but I still have a tendency to ask god to forgive me for my 'unbelief'. My friends on the board keep telling me that this will eventually fade away.............. and I will feel more comfortable in my unbelief.That's why I come here everyday - to read and learn.

 

Finding out there was no god for me was like post traumatic disorder for me.I mean that. I believed in god so strongly, although I always questioned the bible god.

 

I hate those you tubes on the negative near deaths.I get a little scared to. I don't like any kind of suffering, so they scare me.

 

Then I ask myself the same ole' question time after time - why would a good king loving god do this to his creation and I get so mad.That keeps me going for awhile.

 

I just keep posting how I feel and someone always helps me.I just wanted to share that I still go through this -so you 'll know that your not alone!

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I sat and was just wondering what if I'm wrong?

You already know all this, but maybe seeing it again will help.

 

Wrong about what? That particular religion you just happen to be familiar with because of where you were born? Wrong about Allah? Odin? Scientology? Mormonism? WHAT?!?!?!

 

Fear is the primary tool used by most versions of modern Christianity. Think as the cult thinks or burn for eternity. Think about that - burning for eternity NOT because of your crimes, but because of what you think or believe in your mind at the time of your death. What if the real way to a happy afterlife is to follow Jewish law? What if you need to follow Muhammed's teachings to find your way to eternal reward rather than punishment? Even some Christians reject the doctrine of Hell. Since there is NO EVIDENCE for ANY of the religious beliefs, why choose to believe this one?

 

Also, NDEs are crap. I have been interested in the phenomenon for 40 years and still nobody has offered any proof that they are anything more than physical brain phenomena which can be reproduced in the lab.

 

Brainwashing grows deep roots and they can sprout when you don't expect it.

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Thanks Margee and Par.

 

I am trying to live well (thanks for the reminder) I get into trouble when I start "reading their minds" and "letting them rent space in my head".

 

I think that was why giving myself permission to go back if I needed to was enough to separate my thoughts from "their" thoughts or what I think their thoughts to be. I just have to keep reminding myself that I'm NOT the center of the universe or forefront in anyone's mind but my own. (I hate to admit that, but it's true).

 

You would have enjoyed the spiritual retreat I went to last fall Margee. I went for my mother but I walked away with a positive experience. At least half of the people there had this positive concept of God. I'd call it universalism. They talked about centering yourself and welcomed god as a she and listened to Buddhist chants and did Yoga and talked about finding wholeness underneath their brokenness. I was glad to know that at least some believers have such a positive view on God. Especially since I grew up with such a negative view of him. He's mad, he's angry, he HATES sin, he's jealous, he's unchanging, he's just.... I could never measure up to that God, no matter how hard I tried. It was like serving Dr. Heckle and Mr. Hyde. He loves me but he hates me. Ugh.

 

I walked away from that meeting thinking if *their* god was real, I'd be ok with that. This god would be happy with me being close to him/her or far away.

 

Sometimes I think I'm an atheist, sometimes I think I'm not. I can't say for sure, which is why I still call myself an agnostic. I also go to the Buddhist temple on occasion but you don't have to believe in a god to admire buddhist philosophy.

 

freedom

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I sat and was just wondering what if I'm wrong?

You already know all this, but maybe seeing it again will help.

 

Wrong about what? That particular religion you just happen to be familiar with because of where you were born? Wrong about Allah? Odin? Scientology? Mormonism? WHAT?!?!?!

 

Fear is the primary tool used by most versions of modern Christianity. Think as the cult thinks or burn for eternity. Think about that - burning for eternity NOT because of your crimes, but because of what you think or believe in your mind at the time of your death. What if the real way to a happy afterlife is to follow Jewish law? What if you need to follow Muhammed's teachings to find your way to eternal reward rather than punishment? Even some Christians reject the doctrine of Hell. Since there is NO EVIDENCE for ANY of the religious beliefs, why choose to believe this one?

 

Also, NDEs are crap. I have been interested in the phenomenon for 40 years and still nobody has offered any proof that they are anything more than physical brain phenomena which can be reproduced in the lab.

 

Brainwashing grows deep roots and they can sprout when you don't expect it.

 

Keep talkin' Florduh - I am always listening to you! Thanks friend!

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I sat and was just wondering what if I'm wrong?

You already know all this, but maybe seeing it again will help.

 

Wrong about what? That particular religion you just happen to be familiar with because of where you were born? Wrong about Allah? Odin? Scientology? Mormonism? WHAT?!?!?!

 

Fear is the primary tool used by most versions of modern Christianity. Think as the cult thinks or burn for eternity. Think about that - burning for eternity NOT because of your crimes, but because of what you think or believe in your mind at the time of your death. What if the real way to a happy afterlife is to follow Jewish law? What if you need to follow Muhammed's teachings to find your way to eternal reward rather than punishment? Even some Christians reject the doctrine of Hell. Since there is NO EVIDENCE for ANY of the religious beliefs, why choose to believe this one?

 

Also, NDEs are crap. I have been interested in the phenomenon for 40 years and still nobody has offered any proof that they are anything more than physical brain phenomena which can be reproduced in the lab.

 

Brainwashing grows deep roots and they can sprout when you don't expect it.

 

 

thanks florduh!! I always appreciate your input. :)

 

I did read a NDE report yesterday that said that although they could reproduce similiar results in a lab, not identical results. The "real" NDE seemed to be more lucid/linear and that they had more of an impact on the victim's life. What do you say to that?

 

 

 

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FFG,

 

it seems to me that you are questioning alot right now. You have deconverted, but you mind is still questioning everything. Yes, it can be lonely and will be for awhile. You have just cut a large section of your social circle out of your life by not going to church or going infrequently.

 

It will take time to find new friends who simply will not care that you don't believe. I'd suggest doing things that would allow you to find a new circle of friends.

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What do you say to that?

What I say is that the experiencer's BELIEF makes up the greatest part of the event and the meaning attached to it. I have performed psychic entertainment stunts and had people INSIST that I read their mind and never had them write anything down (I did). I divine the name of a departed loved one (through trickery, of course. There's no other way.) and they swear they saw them appear in thin air (they didn't.). I've seen Kreskin make a crowd of people believe they see a UFO hovering above them. If you truly believe you really died briefly and saw the light/tunnel/loved ones/etc. you would very likely link that to the imaginary Heaven you've always heard about. After all, you already believe in that Heavenly home, so what else could it be? Or, if you are insecure in your "salvation" you might just see the opposite fate that has been drilled into the culture for hundreds of years.

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Thanks Margee and Par.

 

I am trying to live well (thanks for the reminder) I get into trouble when I start "reading their minds" and "letting them rent space in my head".

 

I think that was why giving myself permission to go back if I needed to was enough to separate my thoughts from "their" thoughts or what I think their thoughts to be. I just have to keep reminding myself that I'm NOT the center of the universe or forefront in anyone's mind but my own. (I hate to admit that, but it's true).

 

This SO resonates with me. I do that too - I assume what all my xian acquaintances are thinking. (Half the time I find out they really do think as badly of me as I thought they did, though). lol

 

But for me right now I am realizing my entire sense of what is ethically good or bad is based on what I think other people approve of. And I'm rethinking everything and trying to be honest about what I really truly think and believe, without regard to christian standards. It's exhausting. And sometimes I don't think too hard about it, but the fundamentalist brainwashing has affected every area of my life and things come up all the time where I have to question my assumptions and think things through for myself. I suppose it's a long process. I'm slowly learning to "evict" all those people "renting space in my head."

 

So to bring it back to what you're saying - I think this is part of what xianity does to people - it teaches us to look outside ourselves for every decision, every guiding principle, so we get so used to worrying what someone else will think. Supposedly god, but really just whichever church leaders we look up to. So our sense of self atrophies as we always worry if we're "doing it right" according to someone else. This worrying what people think is almost an unnatural obsession with xians I think. It's drilled into us so deeply it's hard to overcome.

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What do you say to that?

What I say is that the experiencer's BELIEF makes up the greatest part of the event and the meaning attached to it. I have performed psychic entertainment stunts and had people INSIST that I read their mind and never had them write anything down (I did). I divine the name of a departed loved one (through trickery, of course. There's no other way.) and they swear they saw them appear in thin air (they didn't.). I've seen Kreskin make a crowd of people believe they see a UFO hovering above them. If you truly believe you really died briefly and saw the light/tunnel/loved ones/etc. you would very likely link that to the imaginary Heaven you've always heard about. After all, you already believe in that Heavenly home, so what else could it be? Or, if you are insecure in your "salvation" you might just see the opposite fate that has been drilled into the culture for hundreds of years.

 

Thanks Florduh. This is what I needed to "hear". You rock!!

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Thanks Margee and Par.

 

I am trying to live well (thanks for the reminder) I get into trouble when I start "reading their minds" and "letting them rent space in my head".

 

I think that was why giving myself permission to go back if I needed to was enough to separate my thoughts from "their" thoughts or what I think their thoughts to be. I just have to keep reminding myself that I'm NOT the center of the universe or forefront in anyone's mind but my own. (I hate to admit that, but it's true).

 

This SO resonates with me. I do that too - I assume what all my xian acquaintances are thinking. (Half the time I find out they really do think as badly of me as I thought they did, though). lol

 

But for me right now I am realizing my entire sense of what is ethically good or bad is based on what I think other people approve of. And I'm rethinking everything and trying to be honest about what I really truly think and believe, without regard to christian standards. It's exhausting. And sometimes I don't think too hard about it, but the fundamentalist brainwashing has affected every area of my life and things come up all the time where I have to question my assumptions and think things through for myself. I suppose it's a long process. I'm slowly learning to "evict" all those people "renting space in my head."

 

So to bring it back to what you're saying - I think this is part of what xianity does to people - it teaches us to look outside ourselves for every decision, every guiding principle, so we get so used to worrying what someone else will think. Supposedly god, but really just whichever church leaders we look up to. So our sense of self atrophies as we always worry if we're "doing it right" according to someone else. This worrying what people think is almost an unnatural obsession with xians I think. It's drilled into us so deeply it's hard to overcome.

 

Excellent observations Brain. Thank you for you input.

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What do you say to that?

What I say is that the experiencer's BELIEF makes up the greatest part of the event and the meaning attached to it. I have performed psychic entertainment stunts and had people INSIST that I read their mind and never had them write anything down (I did). I divine the name of a departed loved one (through trickery, of course. There's no other way.) and they swear they saw them appear in thin air (they didn't.). I've seen Kreskin make a crowd of people believe they see a UFO hovering above them. If you truly believe you really died briefly and saw the light/tunnel/loved ones/etc. you would very likely link that to the imaginary Heaven you've always heard about. After all, you already believe in that Heavenly home, so what else could it be? Or, if you are insecure in your "salvation" you might just see the opposite fate that has been drilled into the culture for hundreds of years.

 

Thanks Florduh. This is what I needed to "hear". You rock!!

 

florduh -I wish you would tell us more about the power of belief and the mind............

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FFG,

 

it seems to me that you are questioning alot right now. You have deconverted, but you mind is still questioning everything. Yes, it can be lonely and will be for awhile. You have just cut a large section of your social circle out of your life by not going to church or going infrequently.

 

It will take time to find new friends who simply will not care that you don't believe. I'd suggest doing things that would allow you to find a new circle of friends.

 

I'm working on that Stryper. I have made some new friends but it's a small circle that I'm interested in broadening, I'm just working on figuring out how to go about doing that.

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Having a lot of triggers this week! Someone feel like talking some sense into me?

 

I was stumbling on the net and found an atheist blog. One of his entries was asking people to convert him. As I was reading responses, one stuck out to me. It was about Negative NDEs. I've looked into NDE and not had an emotional response but this time I did. Why do negative NDE hold so much more emotional weight for me than positive ones?

 

I'm taking the kids to a town carnival this week and all the people from my church are there and I'm going to have see them and interact with them and I find myself "in my head" more than normal. It's depressing to feel so alone.

 

Last week I got the news that my daughter's best friend isn't allowed to spend the night at our house anymore. I'm guessing it's because of my "evil" beliefs or influence or something to that effect.

 

Last night, after I got back from the carnival, I sat and was just wondering what if I'm wrong? Feeling guilty.... feeling inadequate..... unsure. I even gave myself permission to "go back" if that's what I need. I felt released from all the guilt when I gave myself permission to "go back". I'm not going back. It seems that giving myself permission to say it's something that I *might* need gave me the opportunity to explore MY feelings (and not THEIR perceived feelings). I know that I could never go back and that I don't want to but still I'm just feeling overwhelmed.

My response is that the person had an Near Death Experience cus HE DID NOT DIE! Negative or positive NDE experiences are simply dreams we had that were influenced by the experience. Those who believe in Jesus, will see Jesus or a version of their hell, or heaven. Those who believe in something else will have a different experience. Bury someone who is confirmed as dead, let that person come back from the dead, dig his way out of the ground, and then have THAT person come tell me about his NDE or DE! That is the one I would like to hear about! I have a book of NDE written around the turn of the century which supposedly chronicled believer and nonbeliever NDE. It is all written for Christians who believe and as a warning not to lose one's faith. I have not heard of any American Indians having NDE in a Christian theme but Christians do. Go figure!

 

Then there are 'covert Christians' who pose as atheists or other nonbelievers in order to gain your trust. Then one day they magically realize the faith they left behind was right along and Hallelujah!--Jesus saved them, again and that is supposed to make you want to join them in their belief. When you read how the negative affects of a near death experience changed someone's life and miraculously turned them into a Christian (beware that word), chalk it up to another lump of BS that goes with deconversion, you have to retune your head, your mind, to repel the BS you and I and others have spent a life time of hearing as 'gospel truth.' Reexamine everything! This might take several trips back and forth to church until YOU decide how much faith you have in YOURSELF! Find out who you are and be that person.

 

Life is a journey from the cradle to the grave and how much baggage we collect along the way we have to carry with us to the grave. We are like Jacob Marley in 'A Christmas Carol', we entangle ourselves with chains we forge for ourselves because of guilt and fear of a god that does not exist. Deconverting is an act of discarding some of that baggage. Some of it has become our favorite baggage because we carry them for so long they become special to us, and we don't want to throw the pretty and shiny ones away, even if they are USELESS TO US! Our burden in life is a heavy load. Why weigh it down with guilt and fear that does not have to be part of our life except that we were taught to be afraid and in fear of these things by our parents. And they were heavily burdened by their parents and on and on into the past. We are suckers for what we hear. Because we hear it, we tend to believe it. We have to be taught to ignore common sense in order accept things by faith in what we hear (I am speaking of the gospel and church doctrines) and accept the word as true because the doctrine has always been taught by the church and damned if they would lie!--so we've been told, so we've heard. We have to take classes in order to understand the great and almighty salvation so freely given to us lest we make a misstep and oops commit a sin and have to start all the fuck over again, god damn it! Getting through life is not easy and for many of us a mix of religion and reality went hand-in-hand for a while. Then we took the red pill, or the blue pill, which ever one brought us back to reality and the whole Jesus Loves Me-thing just doesn't cut it anymore. There are some who need that mix of religion and reality in order to be happy with their deconverted life living with born-again losers. If you have to walk a fine line because of relationships with the religious, you have to be true to at least yourself or you will be a miserable person. Go to church if it keeps the peace in your house and you are comfortable going to church. Pray if it suits you and you find comfort in praying. But if you return to the fold, remember you are your own person and not the pawn of some spoiled-brat-god who desires his followers murder those who do not believe in him or the bastard son he left with Mary.

 

Need more therapy? Let me know.

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Reexamine everything! This might take several trips back and forth to church until YOU decide how much faith you have in YOURSELF! Find out who you are and be that person.

 

. There are some who need that mix of religion and reality in order to be happy with their deconverted life living with born-again losers. If you have to walk a fine line because of relationships with the religious, you have to be true to at least yourself or you will be a miserable person. Go to church if it keeps the peace in your house and you are comfortable going to church. Pray if it suits you and you find comfort in praying. But if you return to the fold, remember you are your own person and not the pawn of some spoiled-brat-god who desires his followers murder those who do not believe in him or the bastard son he left with Mary.

 

Need more therapy? Let me know.

 

 

I've researched and learned so much over the past year. All the questions that would sneak up on me over the years when I was a chrisitian have been answered through deconverting. I am a humanist. It's nice to finally be able to admit that myself and to others. I think this past week has just been overwhelming for me... like I said, lots of triggers.

 

 

At this point in my life, I am going to church to try and keep peace. But there is nothing that anyone at that church could say that would bring me back into the fold. They spew drivel that I've just plain out grown. The only thing that gets me (and it's only occasionally) is Hell. I"ve been scared of Hell since I was 5 years old. I've done a good job of learning all there is to learn about it, sometimes though (like this week) I have an emotional trigger than makes me worry a little or get a little anxious.

 

I have a good friend who is an ex JW and we joke how my belief in Hell and her belief in Armageddon cancel out the other because we can both so easily dismiss the other's worries. FrogsToadBigGrin.gif

 

Thanks for the therapy. :)

 

freedom

 

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Sounds like you're making good progress. Yeah, the hell thing was huge for me also, but is getting much better. In looking at the overall picture of the things Jesus supposedly taught, I would consider him to have been a humanist of his day. I personally think that if Jesus were here today, he would be a humanist also. I equate the ridiculous ramblings of the fundies today with the ridiculous ramblings of the Pharisees in Jesus' time, and like to think that if Jesus were here today, he would be condemning the fundies to hell for missing the point that we are here to help mankind, not worry about making sure everybody thinks like the church mandates. I'm bothered by the fact that I don't have a whole lot of time to devote to making mankind better, having a wife, kids, job, etc. - all the things that are part of life. Am still stewing about it though. Anyway, good post, sorry about my rant!

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Having a lot of triggers this week! Someone feel like talking some sense into me?

 

I was stumbling on the net and found an atheist blog. One of his entries was asking people to convert him. As I was reading responses, one stuck out to me. It was about Negative NDEs. I've looked into NDE and not had an emotional response but this time I did. Why do negative NDE hold so much more emotional weight for me than positive ones?

 

I'm taking the kids to a town carnival this week and all the people from my church are there and I'm going to have see them and interact with them and I find myself "in my head" more than normal. It's depressing to feel so alone.

 

Last week I got the news that my daughter's best friend isn't allowed to spend the night at our house anymore. I'm guessing it's because of my "evil" beliefs or influence or something to that effect.

 

Last night, after I got back from the carnival, I sat and was just wondering what if I'm wrong? Feeling guilty.... feeling inadequate..... unsure. I even gave myself permission to "go back" if that's what I need. I felt released from all the guilt when I gave myself permission to "go back". I'm not going back. It seems that giving myself permission to say it's something that I *might* need gave me the opportunity to explore MY feelings (and not THEIR perceived feelings). I know that I could never go back and that I don't want to but still I'm just feeling overwhelmed.

My response is that the person had an Near Death Experience cus HE DID NOT DIE! Negative or positive NDE experiences are simply dreams we had that were influenced by the experience. Those who believe in Jesus, will see Jesus or a version of their hell, or heaven. Those who believe in something else will have a different experience. Bury someone who is confirmed as dead, let that person come back from the dead, dig his way out of the ground, and then have THAT person come tell me about his NDE or DE! That is the one I would like to hear about! I have a book of NDE written around the turn of the century which supposedly chronicled believer and nonbeliever NDE. It is all written for Christians who believe and as a warning not to lose one's faith. I have not heard of any American Indians having NDE in a Christian theme but Christians do. Go figure!

 

Then there are 'covert Christians' who pose as atheists or other nonbelievers in order to gain your trust. Then one day they magically realize the faith they left behind was right along and Hallelujah!--Jesus saved them, again and that is supposed to make you want to join them in their belief. When you read how the negative affects of a near death experience changed someone's life and miraculously turned them into a Christian (beware that word), chalk it up to another lump of BS that goes with deconversion, you have to retune your head, your mind, to repel the BS you and I and others have spent a life time of hearing as 'gospel truth.' Reexamine everything! This might take several trips back and forth to church until YOU decide how much faith you have in YOURSELF! Find out who you are and be that person.

 

Life is a journey from the cradle to the grave and how much baggage we collect along the way we have to carry with us to the grave. We are like Jacob Marley in 'A Christmas Carol', we entangle ourselves with chains we forge for ourselves because of guilt and fear of a god that does not exist. Deconverting is an act of discarding some of that baggage. Some of it has become our favorite baggage because we carry them for so long they become special to us, and we don't want to throw the pretty and shiny ones away, even if they are USELESS TO US! Our burden in life is a heavy load. Why weigh it down with guilt and fear that does not have to be part of our life except that we were taught to be afraid and in fear of these things by our parents. And they were heavily burdened by their parents and on and on into the past. We are suckers for what we hear. Because we hear it, we tend to believe it. We have to be taught to ignore common sense in order accept things by faith in what we hear (I am speaking of the gospel and church doctrines) and accept the word as true because the doctrine has always been taught by the church and damned if they would lie!--so we've been told, so we've heard. We have to take classes in order to understand the great and almighty salvation so freely given to us lest we make a misstep and oops commit a sin and have to start all the fuck over again, god damn it! Getting through life is not easy and for many of us a mix of religion and reality went hand-in-hand for a while. Then we took the red pill, or the blue pill, which ever one brought us back to reality and the whole Jesus Loves Me-thing just doesn't cut it anymore. There are some who need that mix of religion and reality in order to be happy with their deconverted life living with born-again losers. If you have to walk a fine line because of relationships with the religious, you have to be true to at least yourself or you will be a miserable person. Go to church if it keeps the peace in your house and you are comfortable going to church. Pray if it suits you and you find comfort in praying. But if you return to the fold, remember you are your own person and not the pawn of some spoiled-brat-god who desires his followers murder those who do not believe in him or the bastard son he left with Mary.

 

Need more therapy? Let me know.

 

Very, VERY good! Thank you Hereitic for that! I just canceled my appointment with my councilor! Saves me from goin' tonight..................

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I felt released from all the guilt when I gave myself permission to "go back".

 

That's great. You should be free to believe whatever you want. I don't feel compelled to be an atheist because after my Christian brainwashing experience I don't let anything or anyone tell me what to believe. Anyone who says they know what you should believe is full of shit.

 

It's great to have the freedom to explore other beliefs besides Christianity. It's like having the whole world open to you, you're free to soar like an eagle. No more cages.

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