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Thumbelina
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I started this thread: "The Ten Commandments", hoping to get some objective (at least) feedback and as usual Centauri always engenders a good conversation so I decided to continue it over in the Colosseum.

 

This was our discussion: (# 13)

 

 

Thumbelina said: The Ten Commandments are:

 

2.“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

 

 

Centauri said: When it says "keep my commandments", on what basis do you presume that it only means ten commandments rather than all of God’s commandments?

If it only referred to ten, it would have said “these ten commandments”.

 

 

Thumbelina: Those ten commandments are COMPREHENSIVE and they are summed up by loving God and loving ones fellow man. If one looks at the biblical narratives one sees that God had to write them down for the Israelites and it shows it in the book of Exodus. All the other civil laws and health laws and even the ceremonial laws had to be written down because of sin or transgression. If you look at the health laws for instance they were put there in order to promote life of humans, hence a person will be upholding the Commandment of thou shalt not kill (murder).

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: 4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

 

Centauri said: This commandment was undermined by Paul, and is ignored by the majority of Christians.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: The bible says "We must obey God rather than men". A person is responsible for what truths they knew and did not follow; to whom much is given much is required. Surely you know that people are going to be judged INDIVIDUALLY, they won't be able to tell God 'I did not do such and such because professed believers did not do such and such'.

 

 

Paul did NOT undermine that commandment. The Sabbath is mentioned 9 times in the book of Acts:

 

. Acts 1:12

 

. Acts 13:14

 

 

. Acts 13:27

 

. Acts 13:42

 

. Acts 13:44

 

. Acts 15:21

 

. Acts 16:13 The Jews had some MAN MADE rules that said there needed to be at least ten men in order to have a facility therefore the women had no facility in which to worship so Paul went to the river on the Sabbath and reasoned with or taught the women (See? he was not against women).

 

. Acts 17:2

 

. Acts 18:4

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: The Ten Commandment law is moral, spiritual and comprehensive, they contain universal principles and they REFLECT God's character. "The utmost importance of The Ten Commandments to the LORD is evident: the Ark of the Covenant was the exclusive receptacle for the covenant with nothing else inside (Exodus 25:16,21 ); 1 Kings 8:9).

 

Centauri said: According to Heb 9:4 the Ark contained more than just the tablets.

There was something else inside.

It also contained a gold jar and Aaron’s staff.

 

 

Thumbelina: The gold jar and Aaron's staff were not in the Ark, the Ark which contained the Ten Commandments written in stone, as well as those objects were in the compartment of the sanctuary that was called the Holy of Holies.

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: The Ten Commandments are mentioned in the Bible under many names. In the first nine verses of Psalms 119, the Ten Commandments are given seven different names: the law of the Lord (verse 1); his testimonies; thy precepts (verse 4); thy statutes (verse 5); thy commandments (verse 6); thy righteous judgements (verse 7) and thy word (verse 9)."

 

Centauri said: This is rather deceptive.

Psa 119 does not refer exclusively to only ten commandments, but to all of God’s laws.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: As I said, the Ten Commandments are comprehensive. Do you think the people who had to sacrifice animals for their sins felt ooey gooey and nice inside? They were supposed to feel terrible because sin causes death! It was to help them to feel sorrowful and repentant.

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: The Ten commandments or Covenant consists of two parts: the first four commandments, written on both sides of one tablet, are concerned with man's obligation toward God. The last six commandments, written on both sides of the other tablet, are concerned with man's obligation toward others. Jesus Christ clarified the importance of those two parts when He said:

 

Matthew 22:36-40 (New King James Version)

 

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

Other parts of the bible affirm the above principles, See Luke 10:27; Deuteronomy 6:4,5; Leviticus 19:18

 

Romans 13:8-10 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

 

9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

Centauri said:The command to love your neighbor as yourself isn’t one of the ten commandments.

It comes from Lev 19:18, which is titled in the NIV Bible as “Various Laws”.

Loving your neighbor does not automatically fulfill all of the law.

If the greatest commandment was to love God, then obeying all of his laws (as he asked) is the verification of that love.

It certainly doesn’t mean ignoring some laws while keeping others.

 

 

Thumbelina: It's a SUMMARY of the last 6 Commandments. I did not say loving ones neighbor fulfills all the law, one has to love God and then ones neighbor and those two principles SUMMARIZES the entire 10 commandments.

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(#14)

 

Thumbelina said: Jesus and the apostles did not do away with the Ten Commandments ----

 

 

Centauri said: Paul undermined the second and fourth commandments and vilified the law in general by calling it a ministry of death.

Jesus undermined the fifth commandment (honor thy mother and father) when he told a disciple to chase after him rather than bury a dead parent.

In Acts 15, where did the apostles instruct gentiles to keep the ten commandments?

What laws did they tell them to keep?

 

 

Thumbelina: OK, I addressed Paul and the 4th Commandment but what do you mean he vilified the 2nd Commandment? Did you mean a ministration of death?

 

2 Cor 3:7 "But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:"

 

Centauri, it is written: "For the wages of sin [is] death; ..." Rom 6:23

 

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

 

"... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;... " Exodus 20:5 (Commandment # 2)

 

"... Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain" (Commandment #3)

 

Do you see that, a penalty is implied in the 2nd and 3rd Commandments?

 

The law is like a mirror, it shows us our defects and when we break any one of its precepts we are guilty and therefore deserving of death. If you are driving and you stay within the legal speed limit then you are not under the law but if you step outside of that speed limit and the police catches you then you will be under the law.

 

Jesus never broke any of the Commandments, if He had He couldn't be our high priest. Look at the context, that potential disciple was stalling and trying to say that he will follow Jesus when his parents are dead, maybe the parents death were nowhere imminent. Not only that, God comes first in all things.

 

 

In Acts 15 there was some squabbles going on, the Jewish Christians were trying to tell the gentile Christians that they needed to follow some of their traditions otherwise they cannot be saved. Paul had to settle that. He admonished the gentile Christians to follow the rules that uphold the Ten Commandments such as not fornicating or eating clean meats that had no blood in it and he told the Jewish Christians not to bother the gentile Christians with non issues. Even Paul had a few squabbles with Barnabas about Mark. Commandment keeping is promoted in the book of Acts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: The Ten Commandment Law CANNOT save a being or a person who transgresses its precepts, therefore the Law cannot save mankind.

 

Centauri said: This is typical false and deceptive Christian propaganda.

Obedience to the law, along with a contrite heart and repentance does save a person. (Ezek 18:20-27)

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Centauri, if you break a civil law and you have appear in front of a judge, does the law you broke not condemn you? The judge might use grace and pardon you but if you broke the law you are guilty!

 

Did you look at my thread on Saved By Grace Or Works? Works cannot save a person. Repentance is a gift but one has to choose to want it. The Holy Spirit convicts mankind of sin and it is God's goodness that leads us to choose to repent. If you have a bible with cross references in the margins I ask you to please cross reference the verses from Ezekiel 18: 20-27 and eventually you will see that it is God who helps a person who chooses to come to Him.

 

 

 

Look at these OT texts:

 

 

Ezekiel 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

 

Jeremiah 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this [is the name] wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

 

 

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness .

That text is talking about Abraham. God's goodness led the sincere OT people to obey Him.

 

Cain and Saul trusted in their own righteousness therefore they were disobedient and consequently ended up lost.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: God's Law CANNOT be changed, therefore Christ HAD to die in our place in order to uphold the Law.

 

Centauri said: This is convoluted in the extreme.

If God’s law cannot be changed, then Jesus couldn’t have upheld the law.

A human sin sacrifice is not legal under that very law.

 

 

Thumbelina: God's law said if you break it you die; all of us are born terminal, the dying process continues in our lifetime. God found a way to uphold His Law AND His justice! Mankind dies once, Jesus/ God came and took our place so we won't have to die the eternal death (non existence) therefore He gave is the gift of eternal life.

 

 

Centauri said: Psa 119:155

Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.

It cannot be any clearer than this.

Salvation is achieved by seeking God’s law and doing it, not by chasing after a pagan human sacrifice.

Moses claimed that the law was not too difficult to obey.

Was Moses a liar?

 

Thumbelina: Ah, the point is to SEEK, to diligently SEEK and God will do the rest; it's a CHOICE! The bible says that God will help us:

 

I'm convinced that God, who began this good work in you, will carry it through to completion on the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6

 

 

Psalm 138:8 The LORD will perfect [that which] concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, [endureth] for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.

 

1 Corinth 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

 

 

Check out Paul identifying with our struggles in Romans Chapter 7.

We do tend to acknowledge that the Commandments are good and Holy but in our flesh we can't obey them rightly but Paul understood that Jesus is the way to obey them: Romans 7:24- 25 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. ... "

 

 

What text are you referring to, about Moses saying that the law was not too difficult to obey? Actually it is easier to be saved than to be lost. In order to be lost one has to RESIST the Holy Spirit and God pursues us.

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: Christ (who was WITHOUT sin) became sin for man.

 

Centauri said: Standard Christian propaganda and wishful thinking.

Jesus wasn’t qualified to be a “christ”, specifically a king messiah.

Jesus did sin (as noted below), so the cozy notion that he was sinless is nothing more than an empty talking point.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Foundational biblical teaching! Jesus was fully God and fully man so He can minister from both sides (I think that is written in Hebrews somewhere) Jesus fulfilled the Law of loving the Father and loving mankind; love fulfills the Law.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: Mankind CANNOT rightly obey the Ten commandments in their own strength;

 

Centauri said: Is this an attempt to say that people could not keep God’s laws?

If so, then this is contradicted by the New Testament in Luke 1:5-6.

It would also make Moses a liar.

 

 

Thumbelina: I already addressed this above. Faith leads to OBEDIENCE, God helps us to obey.He also remembers our sins no more once we sincerely go to Him, He counts us as perfect.

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: Christ has been the ONLY being to NOT transgress the Law.

 

Centauri said: False claim.

Jesus undermined God’s dietary law in Mark 7.

Jesus undermined the law to honor parents in Matt 8:21-22.

Jesus gave false testimony to a high priest about his teaching activity in John 18:20.

Undermining the law and teaching against it is sin, along with lying.

 

 

Thumbelina: It's the truth! The Jews perverted God's laws and turned them into a system of works. Outwardly they seemed to be following the laws but inwardly they were full of sin. The washing was symbolic and they were hypocritical.

 

About Matt 8:21-22 I already said that that disciple was stalling; God is not willing that any should perish, it is not only about our earthly bodies God wants us to live for eternity.

 

No He did not give a false testimony, He taught openly but the soft hearted people understood His doctrine and the hard hearted people did not understand it.

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Nothing but a damn bunch of preaching, Thumb. I would be surprised if Centauri dignifies it with a reply. However, Centauri has a great deal more patience than I do.

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Thumbelina,

 

Can you try to stay to one or a few threads instead of create a bunch of new ones discussing pretty much the same stuff over and over again? It's gotten to a point where your posting is not far from spam. Please, try to keep the same discussion in one thread instead of multiple.

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Thumbelina said: The Ten Commandments are:

 

2.“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

 

 

Centauri said: When it says "keep my commandments", on what basis do you presume that it only means ten commandments rather than all of God’s commandments?

If it only referred to ten, it would have said “these ten commandments”.

 

 

Thumbelina: Those ten commandments are COMPREHENSIVE and they are summed up by loving God and loving ones fellow man. If one looks at the biblical narratives one sees that God had to write them down for the Israelites and it shows it in the book of Exodus. All the other civil laws and health laws and even the ceremonial laws had to be written down because of sin or transgression. If you look at the health laws for instance they were put there in order to promote life of humans, hence a person will be upholding the Commandment of thou shalt not kill (murder).

Were the Israelites required to keep all the law or only parts of it?

 

Quote

Thumbelina said: 4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

 

Centauri said: This commandment was undermined by Paul, and is ignored by the majority of Christians.

 

Thumbelina: The bible says "We must obey God rather than men". A person is responsible for what truths they knew and did not follow; to whom much is given much is required. Surely you know that people are going to be judged INDIVIDUALLY, they won't be able to tell God 'I did not do such and such because professed believers did not do such and such'.

 

Does God want his Sabbath to be observed according to his stipulations or not?

 

Paul did NOT undermine that commandment. The Sabbath is mentioned 9 times in the book of Acts:

 

I snipped all your links to Acts because they don’t solve the problem or absolve Paul.

The Book of Acts wasn’t written by Paul, it’s attributed to Luke.

This was allegedly written by Paul:

Col 2:16

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

 

According to Paul, the written code was rendered obsolete by Jesus, and observing the sabbath day was no longer a meaningful measure of obedience to God.

That teaching directly undermines the fourth commandment.

 

Thumbelina said: The Ten Commandment law is moral, spiritual and comprehensive, they contain universal principles and they REFLECT God's character. "The utmost importance of The Ten Commandments to the LORD is evident: the Ark of the Covenant was the exclusive receptacle for the covenant with nothing else inside (Exodus 25:16,21 ); 1 Kings 8:9).

 

Centauri said: According to Heb 9:4 the Ark contained more than just the tablets.

There was something else inside.

It also contained a gold jar and Aaron’s staff.

 

Thumbelina: The gold jar and Aaron's staff were not in the Ark, the Ark which contained the Ten Commandments written in stone, as well as those objects were in the compartment of the sanctuary that was called the Holy of Holies.

Well, what do these verses say about what was inside the Ark?

 

Heb 9:4(NIV)

which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.

 

Heb 9:4 (NLT)

In that room were a gold incense altar and a wooden chest called the Ark of the Covenant, which was covered with gold on all sides. Inside the Ark were a gold jar containing manna, Aaron’s staff that sprouted leaves, and the stone tablets of the covenant.

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Thumbelina said: The Ten Commandments are mentioned in the Bible under many names. In the first nine verses of Psalms 119, the Ten Commandments are given seven different names: the law of the Lord (verse 1); his testimonies; thy precepts (verse 4); thy statutes (verse 5); thy commandments (verse 6); thy righteous judgements (verse 7) and thy word (verse 9)."

 

Centauri said: This is rather deceptive.

Psa 119 does not refer exclusively to only ten commandments, but to all of God’s laws.

 

 

Thumbelina: As I said, the Ten Commandments are comprehensive. Do you think the people who had to sacrifice animals for their sins felt ooey gooey and nice inside? They were supposed to feel terrible because sin causes death! It was to help them to feel sorrowful and repentant.

Well, Psa 119 is also comprehensive when it declares all of God’s laws to be everlasting.

 

Thumbelina said: The Ten commandments or Covenant consists of two parts: the first four commandments, written on both sides of one tablet, are concerned with man's obligation toward God. The last six commandments, written on both sides of the other tablet, are concerned with man's obligation toward others. Jesus Christ clarified the importance of those two parts when He said:

 

Matthew 22:36-40 (New King James Version)

 

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

Other parts of the bible affirm the above principles, See Luke 10:27; Deuteronomy 6:4,5; Leviticus 19:18

 

Romans 13:8-10 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

 

9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

Centauri said:The command to love your neighbor as yourself isn’t one of the ten commandments.

It comes from Lev 19:18, which is titled in the NIV Bible as “Various Laws”.

Loving your neighbor does not automatically fulfill all of the law.

If the greatest commandment was to love God, then obeying all of his laws (as he asked) is the verification of that love.

It certainly doesn’t mean ignoring some laws while keeping others.

 

 

Thumbelina: It's a SUMMARY of the last 6 Commandments. I did not say loving ones neighbor fulfills all the law, one has to love God and then ones neighbor and those two principles SUMMARIZES the entire 10 commandments.

This is Paul’s handiwork.

While declaring the law as being outdated and a curse, he still pays lip service to the theme for 5 of the ten commandments.

Rom 3:10 creates the impression that complying with one edict fulfills “the law”.

I’ve had preachers tell me that’s why believers are not required to obey all of God’s law but a few of them.

It begs the question of why Paul would pay lip service to a few commandments with a vague platitude while telling people that the bulk of the law was outdated and no longer binding.

The edict about killing (or murder) is rather subjective seeing that God gave instructions to kill other populations and even his own people that violated key laws.

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Thumb if you want to avoid being mocked I suggest you do the proper thing and stay in the Colosseum.

 

 

Xerces, this IS my "paygrade" here at ExC to take care of.

 

Would suggest to everyone that we let Centauri take his shots, if so wanted in this before the dogpile starts.

 

"Someone" just can't resist? I have huge backlog of unused Vacation Day slips to hand out...

 

 

kevinFuckin'L

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(#14)

 

Thumbelina said: Jesus and the apostles did not do away with the Ten Commandments ----

 

 

Centauri said: Paul undermined the second and fourth commandments and vilified the law in general by calling it a ministry of death.

Jesus undermined the fifth commandment (honor thy mother and father) when he told a disciple to chase after him rather than bury a dead parent.

In Acts 15, where did the apostles instruct gentiles to keep the ten commandments?

What laws did they tell them to keep?

 

 

Thumbelina: OK, I addressed Paul and the 4th Commandment but what do you mean he vilified the 2nd Commandment? Did you mean a ministration of death?

 

2 Cor 3:7 "But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:"

The second commandment reassures God’s people that if they obey his commandments, he will love them.

I don’t see anything restricting the phrase “keep my commandments” to only ten of them.

Paul denounced the law in various ways and claimed it had been replaced (Gal 3).

He told people they were no longer under the law if they were led by “spirit”.

The law was Paul’s competition in the arena of salvation.

The law did bring death but it also brought blessings and salvation, and that is the part that Paul conveniently forgot to tell his readers.

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Xerces, this IS my "paygrade" here at ExC to take care of.

 

 

 

My statement directed toward thumb is more of a suggestion rather than a direct order. I noticed how she always gripes about people mocking her so to me, it would seem to be in her best interest to talk with Cen in the part of the forum in which we're not permitted to belittle anyone. Besides what do you mean by paygrade, I thought you did this out of your own volition?

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Jesus never broke any of the Commandments, if He had He couldn't be our high priest. Look at the context, that potential disciple was stalling and trying to say that he will follow Jesus when his parents are dead, maybe the parents death were nowhere imminent. Not only that, God comes first in all things.

 

 

Jesus undermined the dietary law in Mark 7 and undermined the commandment (in the ten commandments) to honor parents.

Jesus can’t be a high priest according to God’s law and his promise to Aaron.

The office of high priest can only be held by a Levite, which Jesus wasn’t.

 

Basically, you’re assuming that the man was lying about his father needing to be buried.

I didn’t glean that from these verses:

 

Matt 8:21-22

And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

 

You still need to validate Jesus telling this man to “let the dead bury their dead”, and show how this is consistent with honoring parents.

By claiming that God comes first in all things you’re trying to pass Jesus off as God, which is a dubious claim and utilizes a form of special pleading.

 

In Acts 15 there was some squabbles going on, the Jewish Christians were trying to tell the gentile Christians that they needed to follow some of their traditions otherwise they cannot be saved. Paul had to settle that. He admonished the gentile Christians to follow the rules that uphold the Ten Commandments such as not fornicating or eating clean meats that had no blood in it and he told the Jewish Christians not to bother the gentile Christians with non issues. Even Paul had a few squabbles with Barnabas about Mark. Commandment keeping is promoted in the book of Acts.

The problem is that the depiction of Paul in Acts is far different than what’s found in the epistles directly attributed to him.

Upholding some rules but not others is an affront to God, who commanded that his law was not to be tampered with by removing or adding elements to it (Deut 4:2).

Paul scorned circumcision, a holy law that pre-dates Moses, so while some commandment keeping went on in Acts, that does not reconcile Paul’s declarations of not being under the law.

 

Thumbelina said: The Ten Commandment Law CANNOT save a being or a person who transgresses its precepts, therefore the Law cannot save mankind.

 

Centauri said: This is typical false and deceptive Christian propaganda.

Obedience to the law, along with a contrite heart and repentance does save a person. (Ezek 18:20-27)

 

Thumbelina: Centauri, if you break a civil law and you have appear in front of a judge, does the law you broke not condemn you? The judge might use grace and pardon you but if you broke the law you are guilty!

It appears that you deny God’s word about salvation.

 

Ezek 18:20-27

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

 

Repenting, do what is right, and keeping the law are the ingredients for salvation.

None of a person’s past offenses will be held against them if they do this.

Each person dies for their own sin and no vicarious human sacrifice is needed.

A human being isn’t even a valid sacrifice for sin under the law of God.

 

I'll address the rest of your comments later.

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I will publicly state that I asked the mods to move this thread into the Den. It was moved. Thumb couldn't "stay in the Colosseum". I am sick of her throwing up threads all over the place (in areas for serious discussion) with a bunch of inane preaching and Bible quoting.

 

Now I will step out, since Centauri still wants to have this discussion.

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This is 'cross threading' and not allowed. You moved your topic because you were getting your ass handed to you on a platter on the other thread. All you are doing is preaching and reposting the same crap in all your threads. Even as a Christian you should be able to come up with at least two different subjects to talk about? Give cut and paste a rest and make a fresh post with something that doesn't take up a zillion screen pages of reposted scripture and religious rantings.

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Thumb if you want to avoid being mocked I suggest you do the proper thing and stay in the Colosseum.

 

 

Xerces, this IS my "paygrade" here at ExC to take care of.

 

Would suggest to everyone that we let Centauri take his shots, if so wanted in this before the dogpile starts.

 

"Someone" just can't resist? I have huge backlog of unused Vacation Day slips to hand out...

 

 

kevinFuckin'L

I'm cool.

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Look at these OT texts:

 

Ezekiel 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

 

Jeremiah 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this [is the name] wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

Jer 33 pertains to the messianic era, in which a restoration will occur under a Davidic king.

This king will lead the people into great compliance with the law, something that Jesus never did.

 

Ezek 33 reaffirms Ezek 18.

Note that it says if a person does what is right they will have life.

Doing is taking affirmative action and it represents a work.

 

Ezek 33:14-16(NIV)

And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.

None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

 

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness .

That text is talking about Abraham. God's goodness led the sincere OT people to obey Him.

Obeying God is doing what he said.

Doing is an active action (i.e. work) on the part of the believer.

 

Cain and Saul trusted in their own righteousness therefore they were disobedient and consequently ended up lost.

Cain was told by God that although sin was ever present, waiting to ensnare him, that he (Cain) could master it.

They were lost by their own actions and they could be saved by their own actions.

Simple faith alone doesn’t automatically save you.

The Book of James confirms this.

 

Thumbelina said: God's Law CANNOT be changed, therefore Christ HAD to die in our place in order to uphold the Law.

 

Centauri said: This is convoluted in the extreme.

If God’s law cannot be changed, then Jesus couldn’t have upheld the law.

A human sin sacrifice is not legal under that very law.

 

Thumbelina: God's law said if you break it you die; all of us are born terminal, the dying process continues in our lifetime. God found a way to uphold His Law AND His justice! Mankind dies once, Jesus/ God came and took our place so we won't have to die the eternal death (non existence) therefore He gave is the gift of eternal life.

The law isn’t upheld by violating it.

Neither the life of Jesus nor the sacrifice of Jesus provided atonement for sin according to God’s law.

You’re trying to circumvent God’s law via special pleading, claiming that Jesus is a magical one size fits all answer for everything.

It’s revisionist theology.

Where does the Jewish Bible say that a king messiah would end the requirements of the law, be killed, rise from the dead after three days and three nights, and require a second coming thousands of years later in order to do what he failed to do the first time?

 

Centauri said: Psa 119:155

Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.

It cannot be any clearer than this.

Salvation is achieved by seeking God’s law and doing it, not by chasing after a pagan human sacrifice.

Moses claimed that the law was not too difficult to obey.

Was Moses a liar?

 

Thumbelina: Ah, the point is to SEEK, to diligently SEEK and God will do the rest; it's a CHOICE! The bible says that God will help us:

 

I'm convinced that God, who began this good work in you, will carry it through to completion on the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6

 

 

Psalm 138:8 The LORD will perfect [that which] concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, [endureth] for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.

 

1 Corinth 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

The Lord wasn’t working in Paul, who was an apostate that sought to replace God’s law with his own version of righteousness.

Where does the Jewish Bible confirm that the law would no longer be in effect after the death of a king messiah?

Where does it say that faith in a human sacrifice would replace obedience to the law?

 

Check out Paul identifying with our struggles in Romans Chapter 7.

We do tend to acknowledge that the Commandments are good and Holy but in our flesh we can't obey them rightly but Paul understood that Jesus is the way to obey them: Romans 7:24- 25 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. ... "

You keep quoting this apostate (Paul) who preached directly against God’s word under the guise that he had received revelations which overturned God’s prior system.

He attempts to pay lip service to the law while tossing it aside like an old shoe.

Then he urges others to follow his example in a quest for candy coated salvation that bypassed the work of keeping the law.

Paul was a false teacher according to the standard set down in God’s word.

This was the type of thing God warned his people not to be seduced by.

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What text are you referring to, about Moses saying that the law was not too difficult to obey? Actually it is easier to be saved than to be lost. In order to be lost one has to RESIST the Holy Spirit and God pursues us.

Per Moses, the law is not too difficult to obey.

Deut 30:11-14(NIV)

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

 

Thumbelina said: Christ (who was WITHOUT sin) became sin for man.

 

Centauri said: Standard Christian propaganda and wishful thinking.

Jesus wasn’t qualified to be a “christ”, specifically a king messiah.

Jesus did sin (as noted below), so the cozy notion that he was sinless is nothing more than an empty talking point.

 

Thumbelina: Foundational biblical teaching! Jesus was fully God and fully man so He can minister from both sides (I think that is written in Hebrews somewhere) Jesus fulfilled the Law of loving the Father and loving mankind; love fulfills the Law.

The foundational teaching is that atonement for sin is provided for without the need for pagan human sacrifices.

The foundational teaching is that God is not a man.

Num 23:19, Hosea 11:9, 1 Sam 15:29

 

The Hebrew deity is a singular being, the only savior, there are no others beside him, and he will not give his glory to another.

The Hebrew foundational scriptures were written long before Christian clerics evolved Jesus into God.

 

Jesus did not fulfill the law, undermining parts of it, and he never conformed to the requirements for a valid sin sacrifice.

You don’t fulfill the law by violating it, and claiming otherwise is a sign of revisionist theology and wishful thinking.

Your God-man creation is similar to a magical shirt that’s 100% cotton and 100% wool at the same time.

You’ve also created a conundrum for yourself by claiming Jesus as being fully God and fully man at the same time.

What died on the cross, Jesus the God or Jesus the man?

The death of a man as a sin sacrifice cannot save anyone and no part of God can die at any time due to his eternal and unchanging nature.

Furthermore, if Jesus was fully man, then he wasn’t sinless, having the stain of Adam present because of his human mother.

Jesus wasn’t fully God, he claimed to have a God and did not know things that only God knew.

 

Thumbelina said: Mankind CANNOT rightly obey the Ten commandments in their own strength;

 

Centauri said: Is this an attempt to say that people could not keep God’s laws?

If so, then this is contradicted by the New Testament in Luke 1:5-6.

It would also make Moses a liar.

 

 

Thumbelina: I already addressed this above. Faith leads to OBEDIENCE, God helps us to obey.He also remembers our sins no more once we sincerely go to Him, He counts us as perfect.

And the scripture shows that people could obey God’s laws.

The law brings righteousness and people are made righteous by keeping it.

 

Thumbelina said: Christ has been the ONLY being to NOT transgress the Law.

 

Centauri said: False claim.

Jesus undermined God’s dietary law in Mark 7.

Jesus undermined the law to honor parents in Matt 8:21-22.

Jesus gave false testimony to a high priest about his teaching activity in John 18:20.

Undermining the law and teaching against it is sin, along with lying.

 

Thumbelina: It's the truth! The Jews perverted God's laws and turned them into a system of works. Outwardly they seemed to be following the laws but inwardly they were full of sin. The washing was symbolic and they were hypocritical.

The law is a system of salvation based on doing works, the “work” being the affirmative action of keeping the law.

You still haven’t addressed how teaching that the food law was no longer binding is obeying God’s command to avoid eating certain foods.

How is it holy to eat things that God said were abomination?

 

About Matt 8:21-22 I already said that that disciple was stalling; God is not willing that any should perish, it is not only about our earthly bodies God wants us to live for eternity.

This “stalling” answer doesn’t address the issue.

The issue is Jesus affirming the command to honor parents.

He did not affirm it with his answer, deeming his personal agenda to be of more importance.

 

No He did not give a false testimony, He taught openly but the soft hearted people understood His doctrine and the hard hearted people did not understand it.

When arrested and questioned by the high priest about his teachings, Jesus made the following statement:

 

John 18:19-20

The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.

Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

 

There are three claims presented here:

1. Jesus said he spoke openly to the world.

2. Jesus said that he always taught in the synagogue or Temple.

3. Jesus said that he did not teach anything in secret or privately.

 

These points create the impression that Jesus was frank and forthcoming in all his teaching activities, and that he publicly taught in authorized places where the Jews gathered for such activity.

In making these statements, Jesus was misleading and lying to the priest.

Jesus did not always speak openly to public, but at times deliberately concealed information with the use of parables, which were designed to confuse the people.

Jesus did not always teach the public in a synagogue or Temple setting, the Sermon on the Mount being an example.

Jesus did teach secrets to his inner circle that he never disclosed to the public, and he did this in private.

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Thumbelina,

 

Can you try to stay to one or a few threads instead of create a bunch of new ones discussing pretty much the same stuff over and over again? It's gotten to a point where your posting is not far from spam. Please, try to keep the same discussion in one thread instead of multiple.

 

 

 

 

I am sorry about the too much, too soon postings. People on this board had asked some questions and I wanted a place away from the lion's'den where we can discuss it. Is that not what the rules say, that for more serious and orderly discussions one can go elsewhere?

 

 

I keep getting some of the same questions over and over and I wanted a permanent place to refer the questioners to. I did try to have less threads but someone kept moving them from where I posted them. I didn't/don't want to discuss The Ten Commandments thread in the den so could you please lock it? I can always refer to it. Is it possible to move this "Chatting with Centauri" thread over to the Colosseum where we can discuss our different topics? Centauri has a lot of discussions going on and that is why I labeled it like that; I wanted to keep our multiple discussions in one thread.

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Centauri, thank you for chatting with me. I did start working on my replies and I hope to post them next week.

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Thumb if you want to avoid being mocked I suggest you do the proper thing and stay in the Colosseum.

 

 

 

Xerc, you're concerned about me? Is this part of your loving (gag) me? :)

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Dumbell,

 

You come here claiming that you want to have a discussion with Centauri, but he seems to be the only one putting anything of value up. Why don't your stop avoiding him by running in circles chasing your tail and actually bring the subject home for once? It would be so refreshing to, just for once, see someone on your side of the argument, become accountable to the facts of the case.

 

Pappy

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Hi Centauri, I'm sorry, I did intend to come back to this discussion last week but I had forgotten I had some other business to take care of and I was delayed in working on my replies.

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: Jesus and the apostles did not do away with the Ten Commandments ----

 

 

Centauri said: Paul undermined the second and fourth commandments and vilified the law in general by calling it a ministry of death.

Jesus undermined the fifth commandment (honor thy mother and father) when he told a disciple to chase after him rather than bury a dead parent.

In Acts 15, where did the apostles instruct gentiles to keep the ten commandments?

What laws did they tell them to keep?

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: OK, I addressed Paul and the 4th Commandment but what do you mean he vilified the 2nd Commandment? Did you mean a ministration of death?

 

2 Cor 3:7 "But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:"

 

 

Centauri said: The second commandment reassures God’s people that if they obey his commandments, he will love them.

I don’t see anything restricting the phrase “keep my commandments” to only ten of them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: God wrote out the ten commandments and I did give you the texts previously; sorry mate but I tend to lose track of some of these discussions hence the reason I started this thread for the same questions do tend to arise.

 

Deuteronomy 10:4 "And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me. "

 

Despite being called primitive or whatever by skeptics, the people in the bible knew how to count.

 

 

 

Deuteronomy 4:13 "And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone."

 

 

 

In the NT, it says if one keeps the 2nd Commandment and yet breaks any other of the ten then one is guilty of breaking all of them: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all." James 2:10

 

Centauri, what do you think about what Paul wrote in Hebrews 4:9 http://bible.cc/hebrews/4-9.htm?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Centauri said: Paul denounced the law in various ways and claimed it had been replaced (Gal 3).

He told people they were no longer under the law if they were led by “spirit”.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Centauri you keep on intertwining the ceremonial and sacrificial laws which pointed to the coming Messiah and which reminded the people that they sinned and they needed a savior, respectively, with the Ten Commandments. I did try to communicate this to you with my analogy: "Centauri, if you break a civil law and you have appear in front of a judge, does the law you broke not condemn you? The judge might use grace and pardon you but if you broke the law you are guilty!" Those texts meant that if you are being led by the HS you won't break the law and therefore you won't break the law.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Centauri please look at Gal 5:23 http://bible.cc/galatians/5-23.htm and the cross references particularly Gal 5:18 http://bible.cc/galatians/5-18.htm and 1 Tim 1:9 http://bible.cc/1_timothy/1-9.htm

 

 

 

To reiterate, when you break the law you are under the law, it CONDEMNS you, it's a witness against you but when you are led the the Spirit you then have the power to keep the 10 Commandments and therefore you won't be under the law because you are not breaking it.

 

 

 

I was looking at a Christian program this week and that particular episode was entitled "The Hearing Of Faith"; on the program they were discussing Galatians 3. During that time Paul was dealing with heresies that came into the church at Galatia, false teachers were turning that church upside down. The false teachers were teaching that the Galatians can save themselves by their works and that is NOT true; adopting that attitude leads one into disobedience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Centauri said: The law was Paul’s competition in the arena of salvation.

The law did bring death but it also brought blessings and salvation, and that is the part that Paul conveniently forgot to tell his readers.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: You know Centauri, you are so close to agreeing with what Paul meant and I think you and Paul sort of think alike. Paul did not distinguish by saying the ceremonial law and the Ten Commandment Law but the context allows one to discern which laws Paul meant plus one needs to compare scripture with scripture and then it will be known which laws Paul was referring to. BTW, Paul did agree with you http://bible.cc/1_timothy/1-8.htm 1 Tim 1:8 "But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;"

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Thumbelina said: Jesus never broke any of the Commandments, if He had He couldn't be our high priest. Look at the context, that potential disciple was stalling and trying to say that he will follow Jesus when his parents are dead, maybe the parents death were nowhere imminent. Not only that, God comes first in all things.

 

 

 

 

Centauri said: Jesus undermined the dietary law in Mark 7 and undermined the commandment (in the ten commandments) to honor parents.

Centauri said:Jesus can’t be a high priest according to God’s law and his promise to Aaron.

The office of high priest can only be held by a Levite, which Jesus wasn’t.

 

Basically, you’re assuming that the man was lying about his father needing to be buried.

I didn’t glean that from these verses:

 

Matt 8:21-22

And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

 

You still need to validate Jesus telling this man to “let the dead bury their dead”, and show how this is consistent with honoring parents.

By claiming that God comes first in all things you’re trying to pass Jesus off as God, which is a dubious claim and utilizes a form of special pleading.

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Those purported "dietary laws" were not from God. The Jews made up some extra laws, some of which was because they were bigoted against the gentiles and they wanted Jews to wash their hands after coming into contact with gentiles; they wanted Jesus and His disciples to follow their stupid, man-made discriminatory fads! The texts say that it was a TRADITION ---->

 

Matthew 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

 

 

 

Jesus had to instruct them via a parable, Peter knew it was a parable http://bible.cc/matthew/15-15.htm

 

Their ceremonial uncleanness was only an IMAGINED defilement.

 

 

 

 

 

Centauri, it would be nice if you give me the verses you are referring to. I did read some information about Jesus' priestly ministry and I'm afraid I will have to re-read it. Maybe we can discuss that later?

 

 

 

Based on some investigative reading, that man was trying to harden his heart even though he was hearing God's voice http://bible.cc/hebrews/4-7.htm . this is why I had mentioned in other threads that the bible should be read thematically, historically, culturally and contextually.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

 

 

 

"This verse reveals one man's response to Christ's call of discipleship. From the context of this passage, it seems quite apparent that the man's father was not yet dead. If the father had been dead, the son would have had no opportunity to accompany Christ and the disciples. In that hot country, with no embalming, bodies had to be buried immediately. The man was asking to postpone following the Lord until his father had passed away and been buried.

 

Christ's answer exposed the procrastinator. It indicated the high priority of obedience. Nothing must stand in the way of instant response to the call of Jesus. The Bible speaks of a certain sinner being "dead while she liveth" (1 Timothy 5:6). In Luke 9:60, Jesus was rebuking the man with these words: "Let the (spiritually) dead bury their (physically) dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God." In other words, make your decision while the call is strong and the conviction of truth is urgent. Delay could result in discouragement and loss of interest."

 

 

From a Christian perspective, Jesus is God.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: In Acts 15 there was some squabbles going on, the Jewish Christians were trying to tell the gentile Christians that they needed to follow some of their traditions otherwise they cannot be saved. Paul had to settle that. He admonished the gentile Christians to follow the rules that uphold the Ten Commandments such as not fornicating or eating clean meats that had no blood in it and he told the Jewish Christians not to bother the gentile Christians with non issues. Even Paul had a few squabbles with Barnabas about Mark. Commandment keeping is promoted in the book of Acts.

 

 

 

 

Centauri said: The problem is that the depiction of Paul in Acts is far different than what’s found in the epistles directly attributed to him.

Upholding some rules but not others is an affront to God, who commanded that his law was not to be tampered with by removing or adding elements to it (Deut 4:2).

Paul scorned circumcision, a holy law that pre-dates Moses, so while some commandment keeping went on in Acts, that does not reconcile Paul’s declarations of not being under the law.

 

 

Thumbelina: Paul did not scorn circumcision, I'm pretty sure he was circumcized *laugh*. He was scorning the view that someone had to be circumcized in order to be saved. Paul had realized that we are all saved by grace through faith and works then follow true faith. However, circumcision was a law that became obsolete it was not needed but it can be done if an individual wanted it; it was not mandatory. In the epistles Paul was addressing certain heresies or certain squabbles or clearing up misunderstandings in the new Christian churches.

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: The Ten Commandment Law CANNOT save a being or a person who transgresses its precepts, therefore the Law cannot save mankind.

 

Centauri said: This is typical false and deceptive Christian propaganda.

Obedience to the law, along with a contrite heart and repentance does save a person. (Ezek 18:20-27)

 

Thumbelina said: Centauri, if you break a civil law and you have appear in front of a judge, does the law you broke not condemn you? The judge might use grace and pardon you but if you broke the law you are guilty!

 

 

 

 

Centauri said: It appears that you deny God’s word about salvation.

 

Ezek 18:20-27

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

 

Repenting, do what is right, and keeping the law are the ingredients for salvation.

None of a person’s past offenses will be held against them if they do this.

Each person dies for their own sin and no vicarious human sacrifice is needed.

A human being isn’t even a valid sacrifice for sin under the law of God.

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: In July 2010, we were studying righteousness by faith and the Pastor said that some people have a doctrine called dispensationalism, he said that they teach that Christians are saved by faith in the NT and the Jews were saved by keeping the law. I think that maybe you have been strongly influenced by this teaching?

 

In both OT and the NT people were saved by grace through faith. The COVENANTS were different. The Old Covenant had the ceremonial systems and sacrifices AND the people made poor promises, they tried to be saved in their own strength which is why so many failed, they lacked FAITH. In the New Covenant the sacrificial system and ceremonies were done away with and it was based on better promises, they asked God to be their righteousness by helping them to obey. The people saw the reality of Messiah living a righteous life and laying down His life for them and that, that is what writes the Law on their hearts; therefore, MORE people will be saved under the new covenant.

 

 

 

 

Dispensationalism is a sort of a spin on the doctrine of penance; it does away with justification. Pagan religions, including Hinduism also embrace such a concept. It teaches that God is wrathful and need to be appeased through works. I believe Islam and Judaism for the most part, believe that concept of God also.

 

.........

 

 

 

I got this commentary from a bible: Ez. 18:21-24 "Ezekiel shifted his focus to the present state of affairs with an individual. Past guilt could not nullify current repentance and past righteousness could not excuse present rebellion. By stressing their present response to God, Ezekiel sought to bring the exiles to a better understanding of their current opportunities and responsibilities."

 

 

 

 

 

The wages of sin is death, how can a law bring people in at one ment (atonement) with the Lawgiver? It is the Lawgiver who can extend grace to the defendant. In God's case He decided to let the defendant free and He took the penalty upon Himself. However,the defendant may now be free but they are NOT supposed to go break the law again.

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Thumbelina said: Look at these OT texts:

 

Ezekiel 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

 

Jeremiah 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this [is the name] wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

 

 

Centauri said: Jer 33 pertains to the messianic era, in which a restoration will occur under a Davidic king.

This king will lead the people into great compliance with the law, something that Jesus never did.

 

Ezek 33 reaffirms Ezek 18.

Note that it says if a person does what is right they will have life.

Doing is taking affirmative action and it represents a work.

 

Ezek 33:14-16(NIV)

And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.

None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

 

 

Thumbelina: Jesus did not come to destroy the law and the prophets aka the old testament, He came to fulfill it (bring in into fruition). Jesus kept the law and He provided the way for anyone who wants to, to keep it also.

 

I am not disagreeing with you; faith in the bible is an active word. In Hebrews 9, what some call the faith chapter, it shows that after naming all the redeemed, it is shown that their faith had a corresponding action. Their actions showed the belief that they had. What I disagree with you on is the need for God to help people achieve good works.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness .

That text is talking about Abraham. God's goodness led the sincere OT people to obey Him.

 

 

Centauri said: Obeying God is doing what he said.

Doing is an active action (i.e. work) on the part of the believer.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Centauri, what do you think about these texts? Do you not see that in both testaments people were justified by faith? The OT, has a lot of verses like the following ---

 

 

 

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

 

Psalm 143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

 

 

 

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

 

 

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

 

 

Job 14:3 And doth thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?

 

 

 

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. (cf Acs 15:9; Eph 2:10) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps%2051:10;%20Acts%2015:9;%20Eph%202:10&version=KJV

 

 

 

 

 

Psalm 51:2 http://bible.cc/psalms/51-2.htm Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

 

 

 

Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels

 

 

 

 

 

As I had mentioned, the 10 Commandments can be likened to a mirror; you look at it and it shows all your defects. If you have a lot of schmutz (mess) on your face, the mirror does not function as a cleanser, you need soap and water http://bible.cc/ephesians/5-26.htm to clean your face; God provides the soap and water.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: Cain and Saul trusted in their own righteousness therefore they were disobedient and consequently ended up lost.

 

 

Centauri said: Cain was told by God that although sin was ever present, waiting to ensnare him, that he (Cain) could master it.

They were lost by their own actions and they could be saved by their own actions.

Simple faith alone doesn’t automatically save you.

The Book of James confirms this.

 

Thumbelina: Yes but how would Cain have been able to master sin? He needed to do like Abel and SUBMIT to or have FAITH in God and that would have resulted in his obedience. He believed in doing his own works, which leads to disobedience. I know simple faith alone does not save a person but simple faith can grow http://bible.cc/luke/17-6.htm and then the works NATURALLY follow.

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: God's Law CANNOT be changed, therefore Christ HAD to die in our place in order to uphold the Law.

 

Centauri said: This is convoluted in the extreme.

If God’s law cannot be changed, then Jesus couldn’t have upheld the law.

A human sin sacrifice is not legal under that very law.

 

Thumbelina said: God's law said if you break it you die; all of us are born terminal, the dying process continues in our lifetime. God found a way to uphold His Law AND His justice! Mankind dies once, Jesus/ God came and took our place so we won't have to die the eternal death (non existence) therefore He gave is the gift of eternal life.

 

 

Centauri said: The law isn’t upheld by violating it.

Neither the life of Jesus nor the sacrifice of Jesus provided atonement for sin according to God’s law.

You’re trying to circumvent God’s law via special pleading, claiming that Jesus is a magical one size fits all answer for everything.

It’s revisionist theology.

Where does the Jewish Bible say that a king messiah would end the requirements of the law, be killed, rise from the dead after three days and three nights, and require a second coming thousands of years later in order to do what he failed to do the first time?

 

 

Thumbelina: "Where does the Jewish Bible say that a king messiah would end the requirements of the law, be killed, ...? " Daniel 9 predicted it. The Jews KNEW the time that the Messiah was supposed to arrive and arrive He did. The old testament sanctuary service also depicts what would have happened and what will happen, including Jesus' priestly ministry after His resurrection.

 

 

 

" ... rise from the dead after three days ..." Psalm 16:10 "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (cf Acts 2:31 "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.; http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-4.htm 1 Cor. 15:4 "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: ")

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Centauri said: Psa 119:155

Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.

It cannot be any clearer than this.

Salvation is achieved by seeking God’s law and doing it, not by chasing after a pagan human sacrifice.

Moses claimed that the law was not too difficult to obey.

Was Moses a liar?

 

Thumbelina said: Ah, the point is to SEEK, to diligently SEEK and God will do the rest; it's a CHOICE! The bible says that God will help us:

 

I'm convinced that God, who began this good work in you, will carry it through to completion on the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6

 

 

Psalm 138:8 The LORD will perfect [that which] concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, [endureth] for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.

 

1 Corinth 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

 

 

Centauri said:The Lord wasn’t working in Paul, who was an apostate that sought to replace God’s law with his own version of righteousness.

Where does the Jewish Bible confirm that the law would no longer be in effect after the death of a king messiah?

Where does it say that faith in a human sacrifice would replace obedience to the law?

 

Thumbelina: Did you look at one of the cross references to Psa 119:155? It's Psa 73:27 http://bible.cc/psalms/73-27.htm . If one forms a doctrine out of one verse it does or can lead to dubious conclusions. The bible teaches that Jesus is the Word who became flesh --> John 1:1 http://bible.cc/john/1-1.htm . The Word and God are used interchangeably. The Psalms and other OT books are replete with people praising or depending on God, the lawgiver, Isaiah 26:3 "Thou wilt keep [him] in perfect peace, [whose] mind [is] stayed [on thee]: because he trusteth in thee.'

 

 

 

Virtually everybody familiar with Christianity knows Psalm 27:1

http://bible.cc/psalms/27-1.htm"The LORD [is] my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD [is] the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?"

 

 

 

 

 

Look at Psalm 119:105 calling God's word a lamp and a light ---> "Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."

 

See? The word and Lord are used interchangeably. The Saints (redeemed sinners) understood/understand this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: Check out Paul identifying with our struggles in Romans Chapter 7.

We do tend to acknowledge that the Commandments are good and Holy but in our flesh we can't obey them rightly but Paul understood that Jesus is the way to obey them: Romans 7:24- 25 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. ... "

 

 

Centauri said: You keep quoting this apostate (Paul) who preached directly against God’s word under the guise that he had received revelations which overturned God’s prior system.

He attempts to pay lip service to the law while tossing it aside like an old shoe.

Then he urges others to follow his example in a quest for candy coated salvation that bypassed the work of keeping the law.

Paul was a false teacher according to the standard set down in God’s word.

This was the type of thing God warned his people not to be seduced by.

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Paul wrote most of the NT and I am a Christian. Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Paul wanted others to be saved also. Paul was obedient to God.

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Thumbelina,said: What text are you referring to, about Moses saying that the law was not too difficult to obey? Actually it is easier to be saved than to be lost. In order to be lost one has to RESIST the Holy Spirit and God pursues us.

 

 

Centauri said: Per Moses, the law is not too difficult to obey.

Deut 30:11-14(NIV)

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

 

Thumbelina: The bible basically teaches that faith is the victory that overcomes the world. Maybe you would like to read some commentaries:

 

Deuteronomy 30:11-14. "The righteousness which is of faith" is really and truly described in these words of the Law; and, under Paul's guidance (see marginal references) we affirm was intended so to be. For the simplicity and accessibility which Moses here attributes to the Law of God neither is nor can be experimentally found in it except through the medium of faith; even though outwardly and in the letter that Law be written out for us so "that he may run that readeth," and be set forth in its duties and its sanctions as plainly as it was before the Jews by Moses. The seeming ease of the commandment, and yet its real impossibility to the natural man, form part of the qualifications of the Law to be our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: Christ (who was WITHOUT sin) became sin for man.

 

Centauri said: Standard Christian propaganda and wishful thinking.

Jesus wasn’t qualified to be a “christ”, specifically a king messiah.

Jesus did sin (as noted below), so the cozy notion that he was sinless is nothing more than an empty talking point.

 

Thumbelina said: Foundational biblical teaching! Jesus was fully God and fully man so He can minister from both sides (I think that is written in Hebrews somewhere) Jesus fulfilled the Law of loving the Father and loving mankind; love fulfills the Law.

 

 

Centauri said: The foundational teaching is that atonement for sin is provided for without the need for pagan human sacrifices.

The foundational teaching is that God is not a man.

Num 23:19, Hosea 11:9, 1 Sam 15:29

 

The Hebrew deity is a singular being, the only savior, there are no others beside him, and he will not give his glory to another.

The Hebrew foundational scriptures were written long before Christian clerics evolved Jesus into God.

 

Jesus did not fulfill the law, undermining parts of it, and he never conformed to the requirements for a valid sin sacrifice.

You don’t fulfill the law by violating it, and claiming otherwise is a sign of revisionist theology and wishful thinking.

Your God-man creation is similar to a magical shirt that’s 100% cotton and 100% wool at the same time.

You’ve also created a conundrum for yourself by claiming Jesus as being fully God and fully man at the same time.

What died on the cross, Jesus the God or Jesus the man?

The death of a man as a sin sacrifice cannot save anyone and no part of God can die at any time due to his eternal and unchanging nature.

Furthermore, if Jesus was fully man, then he wasn’t sinless, having the stain of Adam present because of his human mother.

Jesus wasn’t fully God, he claimed to have a God and did not know things that only God knew.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: According to you, how is the atonement (at one ment) achieved between God and man then? God as God is not man. God incarnate came in the likeness of sinful flesh and became a man.

 

 

 

Jesus did not violate any of His own laws.

 

 

 

What died on the cross was sin. Jesus became sin for us. He died for the whole world but not everyone will accept His gift.

 

 

 

Here's an excerpt from my friends over at http://creation.com/ regarding why I said Jesus is fully God and fully man:

 

http://creation.com/dawkins-and-divine-forgiveness#endRef2

 

 

 

"This Substitute couldn’t be just anyone. He had to be fully human to substitute for humanity (Hebrews 2:14–17), and perfectly sinless so He would not have sins of His own to atone for (Hebrews 7:27). Furthermore, the Substitute had to be fully divine to endure God’s infinite wrath (Isaiah 53:10).2

 

 

Thus God Himself paid the penalty for our sin by sending His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, to die for the sins of the world. And we see Christ’s resurrection from the dead as proof that God accepted the death of Christ, and that the penalty for sin was “paid in full” (Romans 6:9–10)"

 

 

 

I like the translation of Heb. 2:14,15 from The Living Bible: "Since we, God's children, are human beings -- made of flesh and blood -- He became flesh and blood too by being born in human form; for only as a human being could He die and in dying break the power of the devil who had the power of death. Only in that way could He deliver those who through fear of death have been living all their lives as slaves to constant dread."

 

 

 

Jesus "claimed to have a God" because He was teaching us, He spoke in relational terms so we can comprehend the relationship between Him and the Father. Jesus also laid aside some of His divinity in order to identify with us hence at that time He did not know some of the things God knew.

 

 

Thumbelina said: Christ has been the ONLY being to NOT transgress the Law.

 

Centauri said: False claim.

Jesus undermined God’s dietary law in Mark 7.

Jesus undermined the law to honor parents in Matt 8:21-22.

Jesus gave false testimony to a high priest about his teaching activity in John 18:20.

Undermining the law and teaching against it is sin, along with lying.

 

Thumbelina said: It's the truth! The Jews perverted God's laws and turned them into a system of works. Outwardly they seemed to be following the laws but inwardly they were full of sin. The washing was symbolic and they were hypocritical.

 

 

Centauri said: The law is a system of salvation based on doing works, the “work” being the affirmative action of keeping the law.

You still haven’t addressed how teaching that the food law was no longer binding is obeying God’s command to avoid eating certain foods.

How is it holy to eat things that God said were abomination?

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: How are this Jews who are fighting for a piece of bloody (literally) real estate keeping the law of loving their fellow man? They are not under a theocracy now. I had mentioned about the washing in one of my previous posts and I did say that in that particular instance, the washing was a man made edict so I was mistaken when I said: "The washing was symbolic and they were hypocritical."

 

 

 

It is not holy to eat abominations; people who knowingly eat abominations when they know they should not, will end up lost (see Isa 66:17) .The health or dietary laws still apply today. The health laws are a positive aspect of the 6th commandment, by eating healthfully one promotes life.

 

 

In Acts chapter 10 vs 14 (The NT), Peter knew that the animals in the vision were unclean and Peter followed Jesus for 31/2 years and he received that vision in 34 AD, 7 years after Jesus had been gone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: No He did not give a false testimony, He taught openly but the soft hearted people understood His doctrine and the hard hearted people did not understand it.

 

 

 

Centauri said:When arrested and questioned by the high priest about his teachings, Jesus made the following statement:

 

John 18:19-20

The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.

Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

 

There are three claims presented here:

1. Jesus said he spoke openly to the world.

2. Jesus said that he always taught in the synagogue or Temple.

3. Jesus said that he did not teach anything in secret or privately.

 

These points create the impression that Jesus was frank and forthcoming in all his teaching activities, and that he publicly taught in authorized places where the Jews gathered for such activity.

In making these statements, Jesus was misleading and lying to the priest.

Jesus did not always speak openly to public, but at times deliberately concealed information with the use of parables, which were designed to confuse the people.

 

 

Jesus did not always teach the public in a synagogue or Temple setting, the Sermon on the Mount being an example.

Jesus did teach secrets to his inner circle that he never disclosed to the public, and he did this in private.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Centauri, you do know that when writings are translated from one language to another, they can lose their "flavor", right? May I suggest you read some of the commentaries: http://bible.cc/john/18-20.htm John 18:20

 

 

 

"I spake openly to the world - To every person in the land indiscriminately - to the people at large: the τῳ κοσμῳ, here, is tantamount to the French tout le monde, all the world, i.e. every person within reach. This is another proof that St. John uses the term world to mean the Jewish people only; for it is certain our Lord did not preach to the Gentiles. The answer of our Lord, mentioned in this and the following verse, is such as became a person conscious of his own innocence, and confident in the righteousness of his cause. I have taught in the temple, in the synagogues, in all the principal cities, towns, and villages, and through all the country. I have had no secret school. You and your emissaries have watched me every where. No doctrine has ever proceeded from my lips, but what was agreeable to the righteousness of the law and the purity of God."

 

Jesus did not go anywhere to teach or preach without yapping Pharisees and sadducees at his heels.

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Ooops, I missed these posts, my computer is acting up and it is so frustrating.

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: The Ten Commandments are:

 

2.“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

 

 

Centauri said: When it says "keep my commandments", on what basis do you presume that it only means ten commandments rather than all of God’s commandments?

If it only referred to ten, it would have said “these ten commandments”.

 

 

Thumbelina said: Those ten commandments are COMPREHENSIVE and they are summed up by loving God and loving ones fellow man. If one looks at the biblical narratives one sees that God had to write them down for the Israelites and it shows it in the book of Exodus. All the other civil laws and health laws and even the ceremonial laws had to be written down because of sin or transgression. If you look at the health laws for instance they were put there in order to promote life of humans, hence a person will be upholding the Commandment of thou shalt not kill (murder).

 

 

Centauri said: Were the Israelites required to keep all the law or only parts of it?

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Up until Christ died, the Israelites were required to keep all the laws which include the ceremonial laws.

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: 4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

 

Centauri said: This commandment was undermined by Paul, and is ignored by the majority of Christians.

 

Thumbelina said: The bible says "We must obey God rather than men". A person is responsible for what truths they knew and did not follow; to whom much is given much is required. Surely you know that people are going to be judged INDIVIDUALLY, they won't be able to tell God 'I did not do such and such because professed believers did not do such and such'.

 

 

 

Centauri said: Does God want his Sabbath to be observed according to his stipulations or not?

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: If one is to follow the bible and the bible alone the texts do say that God did want his Sabbath to be observed according to the Ten commandments.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: Paul did NOT undermine that commandment. The Sabbath is mentioned 9 times in the book of Acts:

 

 

 

Centauri said: I snipped all your links to Acts because they don’t solve the problem or absolve Paul.

The Book of Acts wasn’t written by Paul, it’s attributed to Luke.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Did you at least read the links? Yes I know you like to snip Mr. Centauri Scissor Hands *smile*. When one looks at the texts it shows that Paul's travels and proselytizing were recorded in that book.

 

 

 

Acts 13:13-16 13Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem. 14But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. 15And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. 16Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Acts 13:42 http://bible.cc/acts/13-42.htm 42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath

 

 

 

Acts 13:43-45 43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

 

 

 

Acts Chapter 15 starts off talking about Paul --------> http://kingjbible.com/acts/15.htm and vs 21 which I cited says this: For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Centauri said: This was allegedly written by Paul:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

 

According to Paul, the written code was rendered obsolete by Jesus, and observing the sabbath day was no longer a meaningful measure of obedience to God.

That teaching directly undermines the fourth commandment.

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Yes Paul did write that but he was referring to the feast days and the ceremonies.

 

"It refers only to the sabbaths which were "a shadow of things to come" (verse 17), and not to the seventh-day Sabbath. There were seven yearly holy days in ancient Israel which were also called sabbaths. These were in addition to or "beside the sabbaths of the Lord" (Lev. 23:38), or seventh-day Sabbath.

 

 

Please note also the following texts showing that the law that was a shadow was not the Ten Commandment law, but the law of "ordinances."

 

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect" (Heb. 10:1).

 

"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:" (Eph. 2:11-16).

 

These all foreshadowed the cross and ended at the cross, but God's seventh-day Sabbath was made before sin entered, and therefore could foreshadow nothing about deliverance from sin. That's why Colossians 2 differentiates and specifically mentions the sabbaths "which are a shadow." These seven yearly sabbaths which were abolished are listed in Leviticus 23.

 

The context of this passage in Colossians 2 makes it clear that the Jewish ceremonial law, not the moral law of Ten Commandments, is being referred to. In verses 11-13 he states that the circumcision God requires of Christians is not the physical circumcision of the Jewish faith, but a "circumcision made without hands" (verse 11)—that is, the new birth experience. Then he speaks of the "handwriting of ordinances" which was nailed to the cross (verse 14).

 

Moreover, the sabbaths described in Colossians 2 are associated with meat and drink. The weekly Sabbath had no special requirements concerning meat and drink, but the annual sabbaths did.

 

Indeed these requirements were also a shadow of things to come, pointing forward to the broken body and spilt blood of our Saviour (John 6:50-56). Leviticus 23 clearly indicates the connection between the annual sabbaths and offerings of meat and drink (Lev. 23:13, 17, 18, 37). "

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: The Ten Commandment law is moral, spiritual and comprehensive, they contain universal principles and they REFLECT God's character. "The utmost importance of The Ten Commandments to the LORD is evident: the Ark of the Covenant was the exclusive receptacle for the covenant with nothing else inside (Exodus 25:16,21 ); 1 Kings 8:9).

 

Centauri said: According to Heb 9:4 the Ark contained more than just the tablets.

There was something else inside.

It also contained a gold jar and Aaron’s staff.

 

Thumbelina said: The gold jar and Aaron's staff were not in the Ark, the Ark which contained the Ten Commandments written in stone, as well as those objects were in the compartment of the sanctuary that was called the Holy of Holies.

 

 

 

Centauri said: Well, what do these verses say about what was inside the Ark?

 

Heb 9:4(NIV)

which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.

 

Heb 9:4 (NLT)

In that room were a gold incense altar and a wooden chest called the Ark of the Covenant, which was covered with gold on all sides. Inside the Ark were a gold jar containing manna, Aaron’s staff that sprouted leaves, and the stone tablets of the covenant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Maybe you are right Centauri, initially it was only the Ten Commandments inside the ark (1 Kings 8:9 http://bible.cc/1_kings/8-9.htm) but apparently the other items may have been added later.

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