BrotherJosh Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 So I had lunch today with my rather naive, but ultimately nice, mom. She kept going on and on about how great Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for Creation" is and how he used to be an atheist just like me, but then he decided to "investigate" matters. Please, Lee Strobel has said he was an "atheist" but only because he wanted to drink and live life however he saw fit so he was "running from God". Sounds like an informed decision to me! All of his books (which I have read) are based on fallacious misrepresentation and an utter lack of any comprehensive argument other than the usual apologetic stuff, usually he just rehashes the same lines or quote mines. Sorry to be ranting it just gets old when I have to listen to, "Well, there's evidence for both sides" and "but there's manuscripts". Don't people realize what they believe? Talking snakes, magical fruit, rock fountains, chariot UFO's and zombies don't really sound like a great thing to base my view of reality on...On top of that anytime she discovers some different apologetic book she has to give it to me, as if I wasn't busy enough and despite the fact I HAVE read it all before!! No apologetic book comes out with anything new or groundbreaking it's ALL the same stuff! Anyways, thanks for reading my venting! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I feel you. I had a Christian friend tell me about some "great books" that he thought I should read. I pointed to my bookshelf and asked him if they were on there. He laughed awkwardly and said "yep" and I told him "Well, I've read it then at least once but more likely twice". When I first converted I absolutely loved his stuff, soon before my deconversion I found to my horror that it was complete crap and soon found others that I liked to be bullshit as well (i.e. C.S. Lewis). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Most xians would have not the slightest clue how most of us have spent years reading every xian apologetic argument possible just to see if somehow they might sound reasonable in the desperate attempt NOT to see the truth that there is no such thing as BibleGod. Not to mention years of trying different approaches to Christianity (liberal, orthodox, denominational switches, etc.) Repeat: They have no clue. They don't even understand or grasp how we have struggled and the integrity we have. It would be a waste of time to revisit this period - there are never any new xian arguments. Treat these types of people as the innocents that they are, especially family. With a smile, and say "I'd rather not discuss that subject". 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 A minister gave me a couple of Strobels books some years ago. In my opinion they're not particularly well written and don't withstand scrutiny but then again he's just pandering to the flock. The books are a good example of how provacative titles can separate money from the faithful. He made a mint repackaging apologetics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Tell me about it, people don't critically think about what they are reading and they will believe Strobel because he creates this image of himself that he has done all this in depth research. Yet he only addresses maybe a handful of questions about the validity of xtianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 A minister gave me a couple of Strobels books some years ago. In my opinion they're not particularly well written and don't withstand scrutiny but then again he's just pandering to the flock. The books are a good example of how provacative titles can separate money from the faithful. He made a mint repackaging apologetics. Exactly, in many ways I think he dumbs down many Xtian apologetic arguments and makes them more "accessible" if that's the right term...Anyway, I think he tries to write them in such a way that the "flock" will understand since most either don't have an interest in apologetics or aren't well versed in the arguments. The side effect though, that his "arguments" become less effective and at best fallacious. I really don't see his books any different than Joel Osteen's feel good books about life and finances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 Most xians would have not the slightest clue how most of us have spent years reading every xian apologetic argument possible just to see if somehow they might sound reasonable in the desperate attempt NOT to see the truth that there is no such thing as BibleGod. Not to mention years of trying different approaches to Christianity (liberal, orthodox, denominational switches, etc.) Repeat: They have no clue. They don't even understand or grasp how we have struggled and the integrity we have. It would be a waste of time to revisit this period - there are never any new xian arguments. Treat these types of people as the innocents that they are, especially family. With a smile, and say "I'd rather not discuss that subject". Extremely well said! I switched from conservative literal Christianity to liberal so many times I lost track until I finally started becoming more and more liberal and progressive in my religious beliefs that one day I realized there wasn't much left! I grew up in a Christian school all my life, so my background equips me with the experience of "been there, read that". It is interesting how there never are any new arguments, most of it is rehashed so many times over, it's a wonder there's even a market for apologetic books anymore! Though I suppose the need to rationalize erroneous beliefs is even stronger now days. Thanks for the good reply though, it helped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george caitlin Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 So I had lunch today with my rather naive, but ultimately nice, mom. She kept going on and on about how great Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for Creation" is and how he used to be an atheist just like me, but then he decided to "investigate" matters. Please, Lee Strobel has said he was an "atheist" but only because he wanted to drink and live life however he saw fit so he was "running from God". Sounds like an informed decision to me! All of his books (which I have read) are based on fallacious misrepresentation and an utter lack of any comprehensive argument other than the usual apologetic stuff, usually he just rehashes the same lines or quote mines. Sorry to be ranting it just gets old when I have to listen to, "Well, there's evidence for both sides" and "but there's manuscripts". Don't people realize what they believe? Talking snakes, magical fruit, rock fountains, chariot UFO's and zombies don't really sound like a great thing to base my view of reality on...On top of that anytime she discovers some different apologetic book she has to give it to me, as if I wasn't busy enough and despite the fact I HAVE read it all before!! No apologetic book comes out with anything new or groundbreaking it's ALL the same stuff! Anyways, thanks for reading my venting! It's really tough when people who are otherwise very nice push their religious books on you; it's hard to say, "No thanks, I really am not interested". Then afterwards, as you are carrying away three or four books that you have no intention in the world of reading, the annoyance and resentment sets in. Personally, I am going to TRY and just say "No thanks" even if is a bit abrupt and unsettling for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 When one of the other teachers found out I was an atheist, she loaned me The Case for Christ. I returned it with my annotations by chapter. She dropped that subject like a hot potato and we have gotten along fine the last ten years. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 When one of the other teachers found out I was an atheist, she loaned me The Case for Christ. I returned it with my annotations by chapter. Priceless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wondering Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I agree. Obviously, Strobel's books are not written to convince non-believers to change their mind, but to reassure believers and tell them what they want to hear. I first read Case for Christ when it first came out and I was still a hard core fundie. As intended, it made me feel more certain than ever that my faith was true. Now that I have read countless other material that debunks his arguments, I recently re-read it and was amazed at how easily I could pick apart the flawed logic and half-truths throughout the book. This is amazing, considering that he sells it as an "unbiased, objective" account which looks at all sides of the argument. Yeah, right... Have any of you read Earl Doherty's "Challenging the Verdict", in which he rebukes the book point by point? I haven't read the whole thing, but have read excerpts on the internet and it seems really good. BrotherJosh, maybe you should buy a copy of that one and give it to your mom. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Obviously, Strobel's books are not written to convince non-believers to change their mind, but to reassure believers and tell them what they want to hear. That's basically what all apologecs books do. They worked for us when we were Christian, and now they sound the equivalent to a child's bedtime story! On a side note, I was going to start a new topic, but then I came across this thread...does anyone else think that Strobel was never really an atheist? I mean, a really seriously thinking atheist. How can one such person go from actively not believeing to hardcore fundy? It seems an unlikely transformation? I've heard of people who were well educated atheists who later became liberal Christians, but never a fundy! Fundy to atheist seems the more natural way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disEnchanted Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 When christians offer us their books, we should smile and offer ours in return. I'd love to have a conversation with a christian who's thoughtfully read books by Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and Dan Barker. They're always trying to "plant a seed" with us heathens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 On a side note, I was going to start a new topic, but then I came across this thread...does anyone else think that Strobel was never really an atheist? I mean, a really seriously thinking atheist. How can one such person go from actively not believeing to hardcore fundy? It seems an unlikely transformation? I've heard of people who were well educated atheists who later became liberal Christians, but never a fundy! Fundy to atheist seems the more natural way to go. No, I don't think he was an intellectual atheist in that, he wasn't an atheist because he made an informed decision, he is what I would refer to as a practical atheist. He himself has even admitted he was an "atheist" only because he wanted to drink and womanize without any fear of reprisal. Basically, I would have labelled him as non-religious if I had met him at that time. So no, it's a bit of a misrepresentation on his part because he's trying to paint his position as "I've been to the other side" so to speak. He's out to make money, anytime someone tries to explain something about God to you and you have to pay for it, become suspicious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george caitlin Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 On a side note, I was going to start a new topic, but then I came across this thread...does anyone else think that Strobel was never really an atheist? I mean, a really seriously thinking atheist. How can one such person go from actively not believeing to hardcore fundy? It seems an unlikely transformation? I've heard of people who were well educated atheists who later became liberal Christians, but never a fundy! Fundy to atheist seems the more natural way to go. I would have labelled him as non-religious if I had met him at that time. So no, it's a bit of a misrepresentation on his part because he's trying to paint his position as "I've been to the other side" so to speak. He's out to make money, anytime someone tries to explain something about God to you and you have to pay for it, become suspicious. You got that exactly right, Josh. It's all about the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I was an atheist before I became a Christian but that was because I "defaulted" to it. Had I done more research into evolution of the logical inconsistencies of religious belief than I wouldn't have converted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Honestly, I didn't get 3 whole pages into A Case for Christ before cracking up with laughter and putting it back down. Someone had given it to my boyfriend at the time, because he claimed paganism. I was fully deconverted by then, and pagan myself, and that book is plain old stupid. And Strobel is making money off the stupid. As a fun note, on Netflix instant play, they have two Strobel "documentaries" based on his dumbass books. I punched the "not interested" button quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKR Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 So I had lunch today with my rather naive, but ultimately nice, mom. She kept going on and on about how great Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for Creation" is and how he used to be an atheist just like me, but then he decided to "investigate" matters. Please, Lee Strobel has said he was an "atheist" but only because he wanted to drink and live life however he saw fit so he was "running from God". Sounds like an informed decision to me! All of his books (which I have read) are based on fallacious misrepresentation and an utter lack of any comprehensive argument other than the usual apologetic stuff, usually he just rehashes the same lines or quote mines. Sorry to be ranting it just gets old when I have to listen to, "Well, there's evidence for both sides" and "but there's manuscripts". Don't people realize what they believe? Talking snakes, magical fruit, rock fountains, chariot UFO's and zombies don't really sound like a great thing to base my view of reality on...On top of that anytime she discovers some different apologetic book she has to give it to me, as if I wasn't busy enough and despite the fact I HAVE read it all before!! No apologetic book comes out with anything new or groundbreaking it's ALL the same stuff! Anyways, thanks for reading my venting! My parents have the Case for Christ in their bathroom. I want to use it as toilet paper but it's already full of shit. What a ridiculous book. Just tell your mom to stop talking to you about this stuff. I finally had enough of my sister and mom trying to give me stuff on Christianity that I finally wrote them a letter and told them I'm not having it anymore. I asked them to consider the fact that they are not currently "searching for the truth" by reading books on other religions in order to consider if they could be wrong about their position. Since they are not doing so, then why should I continue to read the same old tired arguments for their religion for the rest of my fucking life? They either stopped searching in those religions or never bothered to search at all, so why should I give their religion anymore consideration than they give others? They obviously feel satisfied with the idea of those religions being false, so how are they any different than me feeling satisfied that Christianity is false? They leave me alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franciscan Monkey Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 So I had lunch today with my rather naive, but ultimately nice, mom. She kept going on and on about how great Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for Creation" is and how he used to be an atheist just like me, but then he decided to "investigate" matters. Please, Lee Strobel has said he was an "atheist" but only because he wanted to drink and live life however he saw fit so he was "running from God". Sounds like an informed decision to me! All of his books (which I have read) are based on fallacious misrepresentation and an utter lack of any comprehensive argument other than the usual apologetic stuff, usually he just rehashes the same lines or quote mines. Sorry to be ranting it just gets old when I have to listen to, "Well, there's evidence for both sides" and "but there's manuscripts". Don't people realize what they believe? Talking snakes, magical fruit, rock fountains, chariot UFO's and zombies don't really sound like a great thing to base my view of reality on...On top of that anytime she discovers some different apologetic book she has to give it to me, as if I wasn't busy enough and despite the fact I HAVE read it all before!! No apologetic book comes out with anything new or groundbreaking it's ALL the same stuff! Anyways, thanks for reading my venting! I read The Case for Christ when I was still a Christian apologist in the hopes that it would help me in arguments with unbelievers. I was sorely disappointed. I always like it when a Christian tells me that Lee Strobel was an atheist when he started his research for writing The Case for Christ. Strobel converted to Christianity in 1981. He conducted all of his interviews in The Case for Christ in 1998, with the possible exception of the first interview (with Dr. Craig Blomberg). That's 17 years between his conversion and his interviews. Also, to quote his bio at leestrobel.com, "He joined the staff of Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, IL, in 1987, and later became a teaching pastor there." Respectfully, Franciscan Monkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disEnchanted Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 My parents have the Case for Christ in their bathroom. I want to use it as toilet paper but it's already full of shit. Hilarious!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yalta Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 The 1-star reviews on Amazon are pretty entertaining: http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/product-reviews/0310209307/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar People tearing into how badly-written the book is and how it's basically just the author giving Christians what they want to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I would like to point out that "telling them what they want to hear" is, IMHO, one of two functions of apolobabble. The other one is "give the sheeple a reply so that they don't have to start using their brains" - an easy, 100 % certified dogma-preserving reply so that the average morontheist can tell herself "Ah now I know, no need to start thinking for myself (lest I might discover it's all crap)". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuffyMac Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Here's to digging up an old post. Interesting, perhaps, is that I read "A Case for Christ" when I was still fully a believer, and it had the 180 degree opposite effect that it intended. That is, I found the logic and arguments sorely lacking, and it thus was the first thing that I had read that had me questioning my faith. How's that?! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDPApostate Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I get tons of requests from family to read this book, or have you seen this article by such and such apologist? I have learned quickly to simply ask, "Have you read it yourself?" If the answer is no, then why would I bother? Almost 99% of the time they simply saw a title that made them think it might "fix" me and automatically buy it without ever looking into it themselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheerbliss Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 He sounds like a rebellious theist. Please, Lee Strobel has said he was an "atheist" but only because he wanted to drink and live life however he saw fit so he was "running from God". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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