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On Modern "miricles And Visions".


LGMR
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Being an ex-protestant, I never looked at catholic claims of miracles and visions. I chalked most of them to ether people mistakingly believing something that's not a real miracle, or simply lying. But I found while browsing the internet a supposed account of a vision by a woman who lived in the early 20th century named Maria Valtorta. She wrote a long book about her "vision". It reads like a novel, but apprently lots of catholics believe it. Here's a link to it's wikipedia page:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poem_of_the_Man_God

 

Now, the reason I'm posting this here is because a scienctist claimed that "astronomical facts" in it confirm it's real. Here's a quotation from the wiki page:

 

Astronomical fact

The narrative of the Poem of the Man God includes a number of specific observations of the positions of the stars, the moon, etc. For instance, in episode 356, titled "The Night at Gadara" (page 459, volume 3) written on December 11, 1945 Maria Valtorta wrote:

 

"The magnificent stars of a clear night in the month of March are shining in the eastern sky.... It is a very tall house, situated in one of the highest parts of the town, so that the infinite horizon spreads out.... as the moon is waning, the sky is glistening with countless stars.... with its springtime constellations and the magnificent stars of Orion: of Rigil and Betelgeuse, of Aldebaran, of Perseus, Andromeda and Cassiopeia and the Pleiades united like sisters. And Sapphirine Venus covered with diamonds, and Mars of pale ruby and the topaz of Jupiter..."

 

Given that the joint visibility of these stars is uncommon, in 1992 Purdue University physicist Lonnie VanZandt analyzed these events to estimate a date for the event described.[17] Jupiter has roughly a 13 year cycle as it is seen against the background of the stars. Mars has an orbital period of 23 months, while Venus is almost cyclic, appearing every two years at about the same location, but advancing 2 and half months each time.[18][19] Using a computer planetary simulation system, VanZandt noted that the only possibilities for the observation Valtorta described during the month of March would be AD31 and AD33. After considering other elements in the narrative VanZandt concluded that the date AD31 had to be rejected, leaving March AD33 as the only possibility. Given that according to the narrative the Night at Gadara was one year before the Crucifixion of Jesus, the observation places the date of Good Friday during April AD34, consistent with the statement in the book that Jesus was 33 years old at the time of his death.[20] According to VanZandt the estimation of the joint observability of these three stars and the position of the moon during that time would have been almost impossible without a computer system.

 

 

Here is wiki's source for that quotation:

 

http://www.advancedchristianity.com/Pages/MPC/Docs/VanZandt.htm

 

My question is, is that in any way remotely true? (Meaning astronomy "confirming" that story.) I don't know a lot about astronomy, but I know that a book written by an Italian women that claims Jesus used a screwdriver and Mary was an equal god-woman to Jesus is most surely not real, but I don't have any explanation to refute this. Can any of you guys help? Are there any farther refutations for this and other books like it? Thanks.

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Guest Valk0010

I am more inclined to trust the history books then one person's dream. That is just me. I have never heard of people saying Jesus was born on 1 AD.

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Yeah, Jesus had to be born before Herod's death in 4BCE. If he died in his 30s it would have occurred in the mid 20s CE.

 

Also, as Valk said, are we to take a dream this seriously? I call it a fluke unless there can be multiple such claims "proving" her dreams.

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Yeah, Jesus had to be born before Herod's death in 4BCE. If he died in his 30s it would have occurred in the mid 20s CE.

But what about the census in 6CE?

 

Who can we trust with this clearly impossible birth?

 

mwc

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Yeah, Jesus had to be born before Herod's death in 4BCE. If he died in his 30s it would have occurred in the mid 20s CE.

But what about the census in 6CE?

 

Who can we trust with this clearly impossible birth?

 

mwc

 

Don't you know that Qurinius had an earlier term that also had a census? It has to be real. A Christian told me, they don't lie, right?

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Don't you know that Qurinius had an earlier term that also had a census? It has to be real. A Christian told me, they don't lie, right?

They may not lie but they're often mistaken. ;)

 

The time line that can be established doesn't allow for him to be where they want him to be (without looking I believe he was up in Asia Minor). And Augustus doesn't make reference to his census taking place there or taking more than about 6 months to complete.

 

Lots of problems when you're trying to track down the spawn of a ghost and a virgin.

 

mwc

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I was joking (or more specifically, being sarcastic) :D Doesn't matter how you cut it, the details of his birth just don't add up. I just chose 4BCE as a convenient date, 6CE would have worked as well as he'd be too young at that date as well :)

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I was joking (or more specifically, being sarcastic) :D

I know. Maybe I should load my posts with more little smilies like I used to do many moons ago?

 

mwc

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According to 2004 PBS documentary From Jesus to Christ, Jesus was born around 4 CE.

That's even worse.

 

6 CE works for G.Luke. Sometime before Herod the Great dies in 4 BCE has to be the case for G.Matthew. Some people nowadays try for about 7/8 BCE to work it in with some imagined census and/or conjunction that might have been considered important (but I can't think of an ancient source that mentions either in the region). Some have tried for 1/2 BCE as the death of Herod so they can try for some other astronomical events and to tie in with some early xians who place it around 1 BCE/CE depending on the math. The timing of the other events in the region make this difficult however and the evidence on the ground in the form of coins and whatnot show that Herod's sons had taken their places by this time.

 

mwc

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