Discern Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 I've been going through the killings in the Old Testament and had a thought: There was never any plan of salvation for non-Israelites, is that correct? The Law was meant to be for the Israelites only, so that means all these other groups of people that Moses, Joshua, etc slaughtered, had absolutely no future in God. They were all murdered because they were "wicked in the eyes of the Lord" or "worshiped idols" - but they weren't allowed to worship the God of Israel anyway, right? God blames them for being bad, offers no salvation or redemption, and wipes them out. Does this make sense, or am I missing something theologically? If this is the case, it makes Yahweh even more evil than I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene39 Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 You are mostly correct, but there are a few exceptions. First, Abraham wasn't born a Jew; but he is considered the father of the Jews though because of his faith. There is Rahab who was taken in because of hiding the Israelite spies, and Ruth who came back with Naomi. These are the two that immediately came to mind. Then there is the book of Jonah, where the city of Nineveh was saved, but this made Jonah mad. There are a few references in Isaiah to a time when Gentiles would also be saved, but is implied to be out in the future. This is where the "church age" doctrine comes from, which Christianity claims to be the fulfillment of that prophecy. The temple of Jesus' day did have an area for Gentiles. http://www.followtherabbi.com/Brix?pageID=2131 I don't know if Gentiles could worship at the tent tabernacle that the Jewish people had for years, before they had a permanent structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMJ Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Your understanding matches up with mine Discern. It is amazing that more people aren't offended by the fact that there seemed no salvation plan for what amounted to the majority of mankind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 I've been going through the killings in the Old Testament and had a thought: There was never any plan of salvation for non-Israelites, is that correct? The Law was meant to be for the Israelites only, so that means all these other groups of people that Moses, Joshua, etc slaughtered, had absolutely no future in God. They were all murdered because they were "wicked in the eyes of the Lord" or "worshiped idols" - but they weren't allowed to worship the God of Israel anyway, right? God blames them for being bad, offers no salvation or redemption, and wipes them out. Does this make sense, or am I missing something theologically? If this is the case, it makes Yahweh even more evil than I thought. Yeah. That used to bother me a lot. Especially the part where Moses, who lived in Midian while in exile from Egypt, who married there, leads his people to his old home and forces his generals to murder everyone. I think a lot of the stories in the OT read like gangsters justifying their cold blooded acts by claiming God was obviously on their side since they lived and their enemies died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoGods Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 When reading the different writers, you can gauge how many of them felt about other peoples that were not Jewish. Many were after a separation, something that defined them and set the Jewish people apart from the other peoples around them (they where all the same people at one time and mitochondrial DNA proves it). Many books sought to do this like Exodus, Leviticus and in a much bigger way Deuteronomy. These writers wanted to make the loose bans of YWHW acknowledgers the Jewish people. They were very successful with this. Now is there any evidence of all that killing attributed to them and the non-existent YWHW? Well not really with modern archaeology finding if it were a true event, it happened long before or after them time frame set up by the bible. The "cleansing" of Canna is a great example of this. Cites said to have been destroyed during this time are all over the board time wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Discern Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 ok, so as Eugene mentioned, there are a couple examples of people who weren't israelites, and there is this scripture in Isaiah 56:5-7: And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant— 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.” Though that scripture seems a few hundred years too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirPhoenix Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 It would appear that in OT, that only people that converted to Judaism were saved. This of course was super easy, because of how easy travel was in those days. And of course with the rampant flow of information back then, everyone, everywhere knew of the Israelites and their God. It wasn't as if there were untold millions of people scattered throughout the world that never had a chance of knowing the first thing about Israel. It's funny, because I was mulling this very topic over this morning. It is so easy to see how the writers of the OT had a very limited view of the world and its people. China? Where the fuck is that. Quit making up words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disEnchanted Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 I already posted this in another thread, but it seemed relevent here, too. I've just finished reading Drunk with Blood: God's Killings in the Bible by Steve Wells (also the author of the SAB online) which enumerates all of the deaths sanctioned by god. The results: God has killed 24,634,205 people. And Satan? He killed 60. Good read. Not serious like Dawkins or Harris. I laughed out loud many times while reading this book, even though the subject matter is not even funny! Wells approaches it in a humorous manner which shows just how laughable and ridiculous all the slayings for and by god are in the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene39 Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Here's another twist to all this. Isaiah 45:7 says, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (KJV) Newer translations have the word "evil" as disaster or calamity. Then in the book of Job, God is working in collusion with Satan, as is the Spirit of God when Jesus is driven into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. God and Satan appear at times to be strange bed-fellows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Discern Posted March 24, 2011 Author Share Posted March 24, 2011 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. I Peter 5:8 Kills: God: 24,634,205 Satan: 60 I've seen these stats on Steve Wells' blog, but I couldn't find where he got Satan's 60 from. I know 10 were from Job, but where's the other 50? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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