Thoughts on altruism

[doomguarder]

Wasn't quite sure where to put this....

 

Main Entry: al•tru•ism 

Pronunciation: 'al-tru-"i-z&m

Etymology: French altruisme, from autrui other people, from Old French, oblique case form of autre other, from Latin alter

1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others

2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species

 

 

I do not believe in the existence of pure altruism. I have quoted the dictionary definition above for clarification.

 

In reading several of the topics of late, I thought I would bring this up and explain my stance. I have yet to see an action done for the benefit of others that did not in some way benefit the acting party. Here are some of the reasons for their “unselfish” actions:

 

1. Ingratiation to god (theists of any ilk)

2. Fear of hell and a need to commit acts of kindness or goodness to make up for personal sins. (theists of most types)

3. Increase self esteem. (most common of all)

4. Financial gain (tax deductions)

5. Impressing peers (you would be shocked at how many of the dorm rats do this)

6. Force (forced by church, or school, or parents, or colleagues)

 

And that is just a start. If I thought on it further I am sure I could round out a top ten.

 

In the case of theists, these acts are for the purpose of assuring their place with god or assuring they do not end up in hell. This is about as self serving as possible. Most others do it to make themselves feel better or to impress others, thereby making their place in the social group more secure.

 

Even though I have much respect for Mother Teresa, even she would have been in the situation of pleasing god.

 

Even when there is a physical loss, of money or time, the gain in self esteem is worth the cost.

 

Good acts are not diminished in the eyes of those receiving the aid just because there is a selfish motive behind them. Those in need will appreciate help (in most cases) no matter what underlies the offer, as long as the strings are on the giver. So I promise not to stop helping out at the shelter, but lets be honest as to why.

 

So my questions to the board,

 

Does pure altruism exist? Explain

[MQTA]

Yes. Just not all the time. When you do something for someone and ask nothing in return. Or is that just being altruistic? Guess it depends how often you do it?

[doomguarder]

Yes. Just not all the time. When you do something for someone and ask nothing in return. Or is that just being altruistic? Guess it depends how often you do it?

 

Although you do not ask for something in return, do you gain? Do you gain self-esteem for being nice? Do you gain a tax deduction for your donation? Do you gain acceptance of your peers?

 

All of these are gains, and all are selfish. Not altruism.

 

Pure altruism would have NO gain for the acting party.

 

Thank you for the reply.

[MQTA]

Although you do not ask for something in return, do you gain? Do you gain self-esteem for being nice? Do you gain a tax deduction for your donation? Do you gain acceptance of your peers?

 

All of these are gains, and all are selfish. Not altruism.

 

Pure altruism would have NO gain for the acting party.

 

Thank you for the reply. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How about when it costs you hundreds, maybe even thousands of dollars with NO gain? Just time spent with other people doing whatever it is you're doing for them. If it's an accident, that's one thing, but if it's a reoccuring thing....

 

Perhaps an oddity, an exception, a rarity, but I do know one or two who have offered time and efforts for nothing in return. Looking out for others for no selfish motive, although often accused. But it reveals who the accuser is, more than the accused.

 

But, I guess, in general, no, you're right, probably not too many. I'm sorry, I just have a whole lot of exceptions that came to mind. There no reason other than flowing along my journey and sharing the world with others. Those are usually priceless moments. I've also been on the receiving end of many, and swore I'd never forget them.

 

But yeah.. exception more than rule.

[Mythra]

Good question. There have been times when I have done things for someone else (like a stranded motorist on the highway) -

 

thinking that there was nothing in it for me. But, on the other hand, it made me feel good to help someone else. I enjoyed the feeling for many days sometimes after I helped someone.

 

I guess even when you make an anonymous gift, you still benefit from it personally by the warm fuzzies.

 

I think you would be hard pressed to find a true altruistic act.

 

Perhaps a spur of the moment thing - like running into a burning building to save a baby? I just don't know.

[doomguarder]

MTQA,

 

My point is to be honest about why.

 

I have a very good friend who has been known on may occasions to literally give the shirt off his back to someone who is homeless on the corner.

 

He doesn’t do this to help the other person as much as to raise his own low self esteem. He has had a hard life and in many ways hates himself for reasons I will not give. These small to large acts of kindness help him to feel he is worthy of respect, of love, and of admiration. He has selfish reasons for his actions. He does not act out of altruism but a selfish need to inflate his very low self esteem & self image.

 

He actions are good. He has helped many people. I will never tell him to stop and ignore those in need, but I do not fool myself as to why he is doing these things.

 

I volunteer at a shelter here in town once a week for a few hours. Not a lot of my time, but the gain is enormous for me. I feel like I am making good on the promises I have made to myself, when I call on others to help out I am not being a hypocrite. I personally gain, so these actions are not altruism, even if they have a positive influence on the community and the lives of those I assist.

[Lizard]

Hard as I try, I can think of only one exception. That would be something along the lines of throwing yourself in front of a car to push someone else away, stepping in to take a bullet, etc.

In other words, actually giving the one thing you can never get back, that is, your life.

But, that would be a one-shot deal.

Most people don't go out and say "I'm going to help someone today to get warm fuzzies." At least, not consciously. But, its still there, sub- un- consiously.

 

I know my own motives are often selfish, even though the recipient still benefits. Yes, it does make me feel good/proud/important for the moment.

[doomguarder]

Perhaps a spur of the moment thing - like running into a burning building to save a baby? I just don't know.

 

This is probably the closest you will get. The selfless life threatening act. You may gain after wards, but at that moment it is not about being a hero or making yourself feel better, but about the action and the action alone.

 

Thank you.

[doomguarder]

Yup, Lizard, thats probably the only pure altruism.

[BlueGiant]

Sometimes someone just has to be willing to put their ass on the line. Sometimes you have to stop and help, mostly because you know that next time you could be that person, and if it were me, I'd like someone to stop to help me.

 

Can't control others actions, but I can make my own little corner better. Be nice if everyone did that. Whether or not that is altruism or just enlightened self-interest, still would be nice.

[MQTA]

Hmm... well.. I don't know. My self esteem hasn't been low since at least 1993, and even before that I was told by some Christians one day that I was the most altruistic person they knew and they reminded me often that I wasn't a Christian.

 

Empathy? sympathy? I'm there, have the time, feel like doing it, because all we have are each other and why not?

 

I'm sure I could give some examples that could be judged or something pointed out that I do not see, or maybe didn't realize, but I really only did/do them 'just because', and nothing happened for me, for my gain, or benefit, other than the memories of the time spent. They were choices made at times that were for other people.

 

The more I think about this topic, the more memories are being triggered.. will have to see which one may be a good example.

[MQTA]

Hard as I try, I can think of only one exception.  That would be something along the lines of throwing yourself in front of a car to push someone else away, stepping in to take a bullet, etc.

In other words, actually giving the one thing you can never get back, that is, your life.

But, that would be a one-shot deal.

Most people don't go out and say "I'm going to help someone today to get warm fuzzies."  At least, not consciously.  But, its still there, sub- un- consiously.

 

I know my own motives are often selfish, even though the recipient still benefits.  Yes, it does make me feel good/proud/important for the moment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess there's 2 points of view... how you see it, and how others will/may see it.

[MQTA]

Ok, here's one. How about going to a gathering with a bunch of people up in Canada and people are coming from all over NA, since it's an online group.

 

One of them finds out at the last minute she has no money to go. I offered to give her the money rather than have her miss this gathering. Was "only" $200, in 1997 dollars, but it meant the world to this one person. The trip was priceless for her and did nothing for me.

 

Of course, she had said when I actually handed her the money that she'd pay me back, some day, and I told her not to. She was there, that was that. She never paid me back, I never saw her again, and after that big gathering most of us eventually went our own way. It was a once in a life time thing and well worth the 200 for HER to be there.

 

My wife, daughter and young son were with me. This person meant nothing to me, other than she was part of this group and nobody else was offering to help her. I knew what it meant to her to go. Her life was a mess and this was a major path change for her. The trip changed her entire future. She went to meet one person from the group, met someone else from the group and eventually moved from Wisconsin to Toronto to live with him, dumping the original guy.

 

I would say it was pure altruism. Wasn't running into a building, but the good, positive, gain, results from it had nothing to do with me, it was all for her. I guess I feel good about it, but I really just did it because $200 was nothing to me on top of the cost of our vacation, but I knew it meant a lot to her. A Virtual stranger who I only knew online and the phone a few times before the gathering.

 

There's others, but they're more personal.. was fun to remember them though.

[Alice]

There's others, but they're more personal.. was fun to remember them though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

There's your reward.

 

Apart from giving away our life ~ an action we cannot fondly recall, our apparent alturistic acts self serve, in that they make us feel good.

[doomguarder]

Don't take this thread as me justifying people not helping others. That is not what I am trying to get across.

 

We all do good things for selfish reasons. They are still good acts that did not require an evil act (mean or disingenuous) to accomplish. So I do not feel this falls into the ends justifying the means.

 

 

 

Bluegiant,

 

I agree, people should stop and act, even if it is only for the story to tell their friends later or to improve how they feel about themselves. The motive is not relevant, the action is relevant.

 

 

 

MQTA,

 

If you feel your action was for no other reason than to help her, then you are welcome to access that situation as “altruism”. I can not assess you motives, (other than those stated, and I do feel you are being honest) but the feel good aspect is still there. They memory is a good one that you can share with others.

 

I am not trying to devalue the good deeds of others, just trying to see how many people will look deeply at their internal motives. I would say, if you generally are not helping for a physical gain (like tax deductions or a seat on the board) you are doing a good deed no matter the motive.

 

I know what mine are, but still do my good acts because they benefit me emotionally while I am helping others physically.

 

This is what they call a “WIN-WIN” situation.

 

I have never sat down and explained my thoughts on altruism to my friend from the above post, because if he looked to hard at his motives, it would tear the foundation out from under him. He is doing good for others and for himself. Win-win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

To all,

 

I was reading what MGerbel was posting in another thread and this topic came up in my mind. Why do Christians help others, altruism (not), enlightened self interest, or selfishness? I would call helping others to keep out of hell very selfish.

[MQTA]

There's your reward. 

 

Apart from giving away our life ~ an action we cannot fondly recall, our apparent alturistic acts self serve, in that they make us feel good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Could have stayed home or not helped and still feel good. But sharing time with another/others is well worth it, why not. But there was still no gain, no material or physical gain.

[doomguarder]

MQTA,

 

I think we are just going to disagree on this one because I see emotional gain as gain. Not everything has to be rewarded in the material sense.

[MQTA]

MQTA,

 

I think we are just going to disagree on this one because I see emotional gain as gain. Not everything has to be rewarded in the material sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, if there was a gain, don't you think I'd have noticed it?

 

The only gain I can see would the time spent, or what they've gained. I guess that's gain, spending time with some people is surely gain, not loss.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Doomg..

 

I try to not pass up an opportunity to pass on the good fortune others have given to me.

 

To do things for others that they themselves can not do for themselves, or your contribution eases situations, salves wounds, or just does good shit for people is generally a good dawg thing.

 

Can a person live a life of totally unshelfish giving? Dunno, never tried it.

 

Do the best thing you can to those whom you can do it with or to..

 

kevinL

[spamandham]

IMHO, no, there is no such thing as true altruism, except possibly if you're insane.

 

It is my intuitive belief that all actions are performed according to some motivation or rationale (unless you're insane perhaps). If that's true, then no matter what you do, you are doing it to satisy a personal motive of some kind.

 

Even if you give your life, your motivation is some personal moral imperative "I will risk/give my life for this child because it's the right thing to do". You are doing it because you want to do the right thing (however you came to such a conclusion). Those who die for honor die for honor.

 

Altruism amounts to placing greater value upon some ideal than on your own perceived immediate well being, but you are still selfishly acting toward placating your ideals.

 

All sane acts are thus selfish. What we call altruism, merely refers to acts where the selfishness is not immediately apparent.

[Alice]

I think there is a difference in acting alturistically, or rather 'doing something that benefits another' in order to gain an 'outside' reward and doing something for someone else and being entirely content on 'internal' rewards.

 

I think the 'intent' behind a 'good deed' can change the impact of the deed.

 

I see this in a lot of relationships. Mother/child relationships for example ...

 

Two Mothers nursing their collicky babies ~ cleaning up after the sickness that besets their five year olds ~ working a second job to buy their child school equipment ....

 

One Mother 'expects' some kind of return on her 'acts of kindness', these are the Mothers that say with bitterness 'and after everything I've done for you', the other Mother knows that every action she has carried out she has done so, because being a Mother brings her joy, her heart sings everytime her child wraps their little arms around her neck ~ no reward is needed, the relationship is it's own reward.

 

Alturism calls for some kind of self sacrifice ~ and the outcome depends on the attitude in which the 'putting the needs of the other before your own' was made. Getting up in the middle of the night to nurse in sick child is rarely in one's immediate best interests.

 

Recognising that the actions were motivated by self can help avoid resentment creeping in if the 'sacrifice' doesn't deliver a reward.

 

As a young wife, I put my career on hold to follow my husband, who was then in the army. A lot of army wives were making the same 'sacrifce'. Recognising that I had made the choice to serve my own interests in that seeing him happy made me feel happy, I had a very different experience to those wives who believed they had 'put their careers on hold for their husbands sake'.

 

I think the closest alturism gets to 'purity' ~ is when the act is clearly 'string free' and the acknowledged reward is in the 'good' feeling the act itself provides for the one carrying out the good deed.

[MQTA]

Good post

 

I think the closest alturism gets to 'purity' ~ is when the act is clearly 'string free' and the acknowledged reward is in the 'good' feeling the act itself provides for the one carrying out the good deed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fair enough.

[Mad_Gerbil]

From a Christian perspective, I don't know if human love is designed to be altruistic. I think rules we were given to live by were put in place for our own benefit so when we seek to love we cannot but help ourselves in the process.

 

People are made to operate as individuals, but also as whole.

 

I think we are asked to watch out motivation.

If the motivation is right whether or not we benefit from the deed is immaterial.

[Alice]

From a Christian perspective, I don't know if human love is designed to be altruistic.  I think rules we were given to live by were put in place for our own benefit so when we seek to love we cannot but help ourselves in the process.

 

People are made to operate as individuals, but also as whole. 

 

I think we are asked to watch out motivation.

If the motivation is right whether or not we benefit from the deed is immaterial.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

From your persepctive of a christian perspective what constitutes right and wrong motivation?

 

A christian friend of mine describes Christ's death as the ultimate alturistic act for which he gained nothing ....

 

... although to me it comes across as a pretty self serving act to resucue himself from the lonely old self righteous hole he'd dug for himself.