A Christian's inerrancy challenge

[Guest MalaInSe]

Next, I will explain the records of celestial events that were recorded in Babylonian and Chinese annuals around the time Jesus would have been expected to be born that the magi could have seen as the sign they were expecting.

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I'm actually waiting for your explanation of how the Bible can be viewed as a reliable historical document. It seems to me that is step one. Without that, it proves nothing to go on about how it answers a prophecy (without passing judgment on whether it does). I bet I could write a novel that responds to prophecy as well, and probably even better than the book you are citing.

 

It would help me for you to lay your foundation: (1) Demonstrate that your book is authentic (what it says it is) and (2) That it is in its original form.

 

In all honesty, you should also be demonstrating that your book actually says what you assert it says here. I am assuming that you have translated it from the Hebrew and Greek (OT and NT, respectively). I will let that go if you can just demonstrate the points above. Forgive me, but your arguments are meaningless to me unless you can lay the foundation for the authenticity of the document you are using for your argument.

[SkepticOfBible]

Thank you the long answer

 

One would have been at his baptism and the other his triumphal entry into Jerusalem, or what we call Palm Sunday

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Baptism in water isn't a Jewish tradition. Nowhere in the scripture does it mention that. If Jesus, who claims to be Messiah and God himselves, is subscribing to a Pagan ritual, then he is in a gross violation of rules which God (or in the Christian Theology)he himself gave out to the Jewish people

 

God had foretold to Daniel the day on which the Messiah was to announce Himself as King

 

What verse are you referring to? I thought that it was supposed to be Elijah who was to announce the coming of the messiah.

 

I am really looking forward to the historical evidence for it.

[mako]

Now I see why he never lost a debate - he never responses to the points raised by the others!

[SkepticOfBible]

I have a question for any amatuer astronomers here

 

What is the difference btw a Supernova and Nebulae?

 

I had a bit of a afterthought on your response. Why are refering to extra biblical material(chinese and babylonians) to prove your facts? Why didn't the christians have these facts? Given that approach, by which you want to declare that the bright star is a nebulue, it can also be declared a fact that Jesus often kissed Mary Magdalene on the mouth and loved her more than all the disciples.

 

"...the companion of the Savior is Mary Magdalene. But Christ loved her more than all the disciples, and used to kiss her often on her mouth. The rest of the disciples were offended... They said to him, "Why do you love her more than all of us? the Savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you as I love her?"

- Gospel of Phillip

 

After all what is sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander.

 

If this star is supposedly a supernova or a nebuale, why does the bible record it as a "bright star"? The bible is supposedly come from Jesus. I am pretty sure your Jesus knows the difference btw a oridanary star and nebulae? So why doesn't Jesus uses the word nebulae(or supernova) instead of "bright star"? There is no footnote provided in the original manuscript or any other bibles which says "the bright star should be considered a very special kind of celestial body"?

 

If you are claiming this is a supernova or nebulae, which celestial body does this represent today?

[Ouroboros]

I have a question for any amatuer astronomers here

 

What is the difference btw a Supernova and Nebulae?

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A supernova is an exploding star. A short event in time.

 

A nebula is a huge gas or dust cloud. Sometimes visible through a bright stars light reflecting in the particles. This is a long term event. It doesn't go away. Like the horse-head nebula.

 

The Crab nebula is a result of a supernova 1000 years ago.

[iprayican]

I have a question for any amatuer astronomers here

 

What is the difference btw a Supernova and Nebulae?

 

I had a bit of a afterthought on your response. Why are refering to extra biblical material(chinese and babylonians) to prove your facts? Why didn't the christians have these facts? Given that approach, by which you want to declare that the bright star is a nebulue, it can also be declared a fact that Jesus often kissed Mary Magdalene on the mouth and loved her more than all the disciples.

 

Isn't part of proving the accuracy of the Biblical historical events that they were recorded outside of the Bible?????????? It is recorded in the books written by Christians and history shows there wasn't an abundance of astronomers recording things like this. We know of two civilizations in the east where the star was first seen which did have astronomers carefully watching the skys and therefore we can review their records to see if they saw the same thing can't we? And your reference to Philip and that verse in particular, did you know that the fragment that competes that sentence is missing, it stops at "on" so whatever you read from thereon has been added. Philip is not regarded as inspired, or even written by Philip, but I will give you that it might have some historical worth, but consider it could also have been written to intentionally push an agenda as many of the books that are outside the cannon are considered. Again, we are forced to deal with the opinons of others. Even if we find that fragment, and it was considered as a trustworthy writing, it was common for Christians in the cultures of the time it was written to greet each other with a kiss. Kissing as a greeting remains a common practice in many places of the world today, Christian or not.

 

"...the companion of the Savior is Mary Magdalene. But Christ loved her more than all the disciples, and used to kiss her often on her mouth. The rest of the disciples were offended... They said to him, "Why do you love her more than all of us? the Savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you as I love her?"

- Gospel of Phillip

 

After all what is sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander.

 

If this star is supposedly a supernova or a nebuale, why does the bible record it as a "bright star"? The bible is supposedly come from Jesus. I am pretty sure your Jesus knows the difference btw a oridanary star and nebulae? So why doesn't Jesus uses the word nebulae(or supernova) instead of "bright star"? There is no footnote provided in the original manuscript or any other bibles which says "the bright star should  be considered a very special kind of celestial body"?

 

If you are claiming this is a supernova or nebulae, which celestial body does this represent today?

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We don't have the original originals, and the early copies didn't have footnotes and there are lots of different Bibles. I have about twenty in my own library, different translations, the Greek and Hebrew, all with their own unique footnotes and opinions. If you read all of them you might come closer to understanding what was really intended by a scripture so it is often helpful to compare. There is no such thing as a perfect translation and Greek and Hebrew are rich and beautiful languages and difficult to understand as they come from two cultures most of us are not a part of, a culture that existed in the past. There is even a Jewish form of Greek that was used by the early church. Some of that understanding is just lost and we have to make educated guesses in translating. Most issues like this have very little impact on doctrine, but they should be understood. Don't trust your footnotes, think outside the box. I thought that was what us Christians were always accused of not doing.

 

Sorry to make you wait on the star information, there are three major events and thus theories about the star, you have decide for yourself which you think it is. I used up my time in the Lion's Den. Be back in a few days.

[SkepticOfBible]

Again, we are forced to deal with the opinons of others.

 

Well, then you agree a book which is to be considered inspired has got nothing with God. The decision whether a book is inspired by god or not, doesn't lie with god, but at the whims of a councils of Men.

 

it was considered as a trustworthy writing, it was common for Christians in the cultures of the time it was written to greet each other with a kiss

 

Well, obviously it will not be a trustworthy writings. I am not sure that I have heard of any culture where kissing on the mouth is common greeting. Kissing of the cheeks, yes. However I can claim it with certainly.

 

Nevertheless, the context shows that Mary Magdelene was companion(ak lover) of the saviour and Jesus smooched/kissed her more often than others. That tells a lot about a God who claims that he doesn't practice favourtism(sorry I am not sure if that is word. But I hope you get the idea)

 

We don't have the original originals,

Which is why one can never prove that the copies were altered or not.

 

Incidently the other day, I was reading in the NIV study bible, that there are certain verses in the 4 Gospels which seems to have added on later on(eg Mark 16:9-20) , because of

 

a)They don't appear in the earlier manuscript

b)They style of the verses doesn't match up with the previous verses in the book

 

This you can imagine, definately heightened my skeptism.

 

Philip is not regarded as inspired, or even written by Philip, but I will give you that it might have some historical worth,

Thank for your acknowledgement. I speculate if it did make into the canon of the bible, perhaps that would have changed the image of Jesus a lot

 

what was really intended by a scripture so it is often helpful to compare

So what must a believer/skeptic do if their are some verse from some bible or if the verse has a different wording? Starting selecting the majority verses and go with that. This is definately not building for a "word of god", which is said to be error free.

 

At the end of the day, the bible is just a selection of books from a number of books, which was decided by men, not god.

 

You do not have to respond to the above, because that will divert the issue away. But I had get that out of my system.

 

Isn't part of proving the accuracy of the Biblical historical events that they were recorded outside of the Bible

 

in retrospect, I agree that my objection was uncalled for. I withdraw my arguement.

 

there are three major events and thus theories about the star, you have decide for yourself which you think it is.

I will be eagerly waiting for that, and so will the others I hope.

[MQTA]

I think the problem is you are 'speaking Greek' LOL to Christians when you mention all the things that other people have discovered.. like points from the SAB or Paul Tobin's historicity research. They haven't read all of these things, so they don't have all the information. Whatever tidbits you throw at them they only know the knee-jerk responses, they don't see the big picture, and they don't READ all that we've read.

 

You can print it out, give them links, but they won't read it. They may look for a word or two so they can rightfully reject it, but they won't read it or get the Ideas from them.

 

They only have reference points IN the Bible and mostly only from what was pointed out.

 

To them, I guess it's like trying to show them that their mathematical formulas they rely on are actually incorrect. Except this ain't math!

[Mythra]

We don't have the original originals, and the early copies didn't have footnotes and there are lots of different Bibles. 

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By "early" copies you are referring to 4th century or later. Early. 300 years after the "time" of "Jesus". I'm sure there weren't too many "editorial corrections" and "theological clarifications" by scribes and concerned church fathers that happened in that first 300 years. 300 YEARS. Longer than the United States has been a nation.

 

Convservative Christians love to set a date of around 65-75 CE for the beginnings of the gospels. Without merit. Tell you what, we'll settle for early fragments. Go ahead and make a list of all of the fragments of the gospels that date from the first century. Even little bitty fragments will count.

 

No, Wait. I'll do it for you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That was them. The complete list.

[Antlerman]

Philip is not regarded as inspired, or even written by Philip, but I will give you that it might have some historical worth, but consider it could also have been written to intentionally push an agenda as many of the books that are outside the cannon are considered. .

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I'm curious if you feel the books that the committees decided upon to include in their holy canon were free from any political agendas themselves, unlike the Gospel of Philip? If so, how can you conclude the canon itself is somehow politically neutral, despite a council of human beings deciding what to include and what to discard? Do you believe God somehow supernaturally inspired and guided them?

 

I always look at the credibility of the source first, before arguing whether some star could be the one in the bible. Frankly you could pretty much find anything you want to fit a story like that. I've seen a number of the fanciful crop-circle like explanations on "In Search Of" too, like Noah's Arc, etc. They're all just highly speculative ideas whose only value is entertainment.

[Checkmate]

Is this how it ends? Not with a bang, but with a whimper?

 

The proud and once mighty Christian slinks from the field of battle, bloody, bruised and broken. Armor of god crumpled and in ruin. The Christian standard lying ingloriously in tatters in the sand, forgotten. All questions going unheeded and unanswered. With the sound of heathen mockery echoing throughout the cavernous Colosseum.

 

Ah, yes. 'Tis a good day we've had.

 

But wait! What is this? Is there yet ANOTHER valiant Christian coming to take up the challenge? Some bold soldier of Christ daring to succeed where all others have failed? Could it be?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope. Apparently not. False alarm. "B-be-be-b-be-That's all, folks!"

[iprayican]

Let me tell you something Mr. Wicked, I came back here to post my response to the two questions I had completed research on and I found that the WHOLE THREAD ON JESUS OF NAZARETH QUESTION had been deleted. Why? Because I pointed out you were wrong and Nazareth did exist at the time of Christ, it existed 200 years and I linked you to the dig site to prove it. I see now the integrity of whomever manages the board, that no matter what I show, it will just be deleted if it proves your objections wrong. What open minds you have. It would be a waste of time and effort for me to post here again. Seeing and cannot see, hearing and cannot hear. You are right, I need to shake off the dust and move on. Hopefully some of the seeds fell where they will have a chance to grow. God does the watering, I have seeds to sow where my posts aren't deleted. I am sad for all of you but I won't be back.

[Ouroboros]

Let me tell you something Mr. Wicked, I came back here to post my response to the two questions I had completed research on and I found that the WHOLE THREAD ON JESUS OF NAZARETH QUESTION had been deleted.

Hmm. I couldn't find it either. Maybe it was deleted during the situation with Rameus.

 

Why?  Because I pointed out you were wrong and Nazareth did exist at the time of Christ, it existed 200 years and I linked you to the dig site to prove it.

You probably didn't see my last responses. My question was, what dating method did they use to establish the pottery to be 200 BCE? Did they use one of those methods that Christian Apologists refuse to believe can date other findings in archeology? If the dating method isn't good enough for 10000s of years for the Christians, why can it be used to date something exactly 2200 years?

 

And another thing, the people that did the excavations did not look like the American Ivy League, but Christian Apologists, and with the headquarters in Britain.

 

I see now the integrity of whomever manages the board, that no matter what I show, it will just be deleted if it proves your objections wrong.

I don't think it was deleted for that reason, but you believe whatever you want. Christians are always persecuted by this big evil atheist conspiracy. Poor critters.

 

What open minds you have.  It would be a waste of time and effort for me to post here again.  Seeing and cannot see, hearing and cannot hear.

I did save the links, and I did read your posts. And they're interesting, and there might be something to it.

 

You are right, I need to shake off the dust and move on.  Hopefully some of the seeds fell where they will have a chance to grow.  God does the watering, I have seeds to sow where my posts aren't deleted.  I am sad for all of you but I won't be back.

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Okay.

 

4 more to 6160!

[SkepticOfBible]

Let me tell you something Mr. Wicked, I came back here to post my response to the two questions I had completed research on and I found that the WHOLE THREAD ON JESUS OF NAZARETH QUESTION had been deleted.  Why? 

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Good question. Can the moderator please answer that? I wanted to contact this gentlemen myself.

 

What open minds you have

 

Hey come on I was looking forward to your answers. Seriously. Why do you want to condemn all the skeptics for the mistake of one.

 

I also saved those links on my computer, so your effort didn't go in vain

I am sad for all of you but I won't be back.

 

I finally thought we got some more thinking christians on these forums

[Ouroboros]

Good question. Can the moderator please answer that? I wanted to contact this gentlemen myself.

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Sorry, I have no answer. Because I don't know. I know there was one thread deleted because it contained information that revelead Rameus true identity, name, school etc. But I didn't think that was the same thread... sorry, no answer right now. Maybe it was merged?

 

And it's unfortunate that something like that happened, and especially when we took measures against one of our own, and yet a Christian that still is allowed to play around, complains about our treatment...

 

What can you do?... It's never enough and always too much...

[Mythra]

Dammit. There goes 24 really good bible discrepancies that we'll never know the answer to.

[Eponymic]

There is no such thing as a perfect translation and Greek and Hebrew are rich and beautiful languages and difficult to understand as they come from two cultures most of us are not a part of, a culture that existed in the past.

 

Think about it this way. There's plenty of ancient Greek, Roman, & other philosophical, theatrical & other writings that are never or hardly ever debated or disputed. So why is it that we have to have 35 versions of the Bible when these other, often older text stand with only 1, maybe two or three standard translations at the most?

[Vigile]

I found that the WHOLE THREAD ON JESUS OF NAZARETH QUESTION had been deleted.  Why?  Because I pointed out you were wrong and Nazareth did exist at the time of Christ, it existed 200 years and I linked you to the dig site to prove it. 

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Feeling a little paranoid today? Care to offer some proof that this is why the thread was deleted before you run of for the second time this week?

 

I think the truth is closer to: the thread was deleted because one or two of the debaters were considered disruptive to the board as a whole by disguising their identity. But I'm sure you came closer to the real reason. You stumped us and we don't want none of that. We might look stupid and stuff.

[Checkmate]

Let me tell you something Mr. Wicked,

 

 

Grinch, is that directed at you???

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Yep! That little old nerve whacker, me! If there's a button to be pushed on an Xian, trust me to find it!

 

You know, for someone who can tell others to "lighten up", IPIC sure loses her temper a lot. Bipolar maybe? She reminds me of another Xian member of these boards. I won't mention any names. You know who.

 

Anyway...I suppose this was a bad week for "Fruit of the Spirit" deliveries.

[LloydDobler]

This thread is such a charicature of the whole christian experience.

 

1) lots of energy, drive and joy based on completely faulty thinking and pure hope

 

2) Challenges turn the joy and energy to anger and frustration

 

3) give up

 

I'd say we were pretty patient, we're coming up on the end of week 3 and she still hasn't even finished rebutting one of the dozens of errors we pointed out.

 

Onward christian soldier!

[Eponymic]

This thread is such a charicature of the whole christian experience. 

 

1) lots of energy, drive and joy based on completely faulty thinking and pure hope

 

2) Challenges turn the joy and energy to anger and frustration

 

3) give up

 

I'd say we were pretty patient, we're coming up on the end of week 3 and she still hasn't even finished rebutting one of the dozens of errors we pointed out. 

 

Onward christian soldier!

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And yet she's likely to go on preaching to others who won't challenge her.

 

Sad.

[Open_Minded]

I honestly am here to try and supply answers but there has to be open minds, I'm not here to be target practice.

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OK, OK, I was going to stay out of this...

 

Oh…. this probably makes me a BAD, BAD, BAD, Christian, but it can’t be helped I must join in. I’ll justify it by affirming you receive an education YOURSELF and open YOUR mind a bit. Being Christian DOES NOT REQUIRE THE BELIEF IN BIBLICAL INERRANCY!!!!!

 

So back to the original thread... I'll keep it simple. Here's my challenge.

 

Order of Creation between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2

Genesis 1 Account of creation

 

1. Gen.1:2 Earth was formless watery void

2. Gen. 1:3-5 God separates light from darkness

3. Gen. 1:6-8 Dome to separate waters from waters

4. Gen. 1:9-10 Dry land and seas

5. Gen.1:11-13 Vegetation

6. Gen.1:14-18 Sun, stars, and moon

7. Gen.1:20-22 Fish, birds; Gen. 1:24 – 25 Wild animals

8. Gen.1:26-27 Human Beings TOGETHER - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

 

Genesis 2 account of creation

1. Gen.2:5 Dry, barren earth

2. Gen.2:6 Stream, waters "whole face of the earth”.

3. Gen.2:7 Formed man from dust

4. Gen.2:8 Planted garden in east, for man

5. Gen.2:9 Vegetation in the garden

6. Gen.2:18 Land animals and birds

7. Gen.2:21-23 Woman as man’s “partner”

 

1st Human Family:

 

Genesis 4:14-15 describes Cain’s reaction at being sentenced to wandering the earth. He fears for his life and says, “anyone who meets me may kill me”. Then YHWH puts a mark on Cain and tells him, “Whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance”. Where did the other humans come from who could have killed Cain?

 

Gen 4:17: "And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch:" Where did Cain’s wife come from?

 

 

How could Moses write about his own death?

 

Deuteronomy 33: 1 – 29 This is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death...

 

Deuteronomy 34: 1 - 8

1 And Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is opposite Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land, Gilead as far as Dan, 2 all Naph'tali, the land of E'phraim and Manas'seh, all the land of Judah as far as the Western Sea, 3 the Negeb, and the Plain, that is, the valley of Jericho the city of palm trees, as far as Zo'ar. 4 And the LORD said to him, "This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, 'I will give it to your descendants.' I have let you see it with your eyes, but you shall not go over there." 5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD, 6 and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-pe'or; but no man knows the place of his burial to this day. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. 8 And the people of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days; then the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.

 

IprayIcan.. you are either too young to know what you've gotten yourself into here, or you are very arrogant. Either way you'll be get an education and I'll enjoy watching...

 

Carry on...

 

 

[SkepticOfBible]

iprayican,Oct 30 2005, 09:27 AM]I honestly am here to try and supply answers but there has to be open minds, I'm not here to be target practice.

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How could Moses write about his own death?

 

Deuteronomy 33: 1 – 29 This is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death...

 

Deuteronomy 34: 1 - 8

1 And Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is opposite Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land, Gilead as far as Dan, 2 all Naph'tali, the land of E'phraim and Manas'seh, all the land of Judah as far as the Western Sea, 3 the Negeb, and the Plain, that is, the valley of Jericho the city of palm trees, as far as Zo'ar. 4 And the LORD said to him, "This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, 'I will give it to your descendants.' I have let you see it with your eyes, but you shall not go over there." 5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD, 6 and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-pe'or; but no man knows the place of his burial to this day. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. 8 And the people of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days; then the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for proving my point that it is only christian tradition which says that the Pentuach was written by Moses

 

Iprayican was also trying to prove that Genesis was written by Adam

 

>fixed and closed tags kL<

[Open_Minded]

Thanks for proving my point that it is only christian tradition which says that the Pentuach was written by Moses

 

Iprayican was also trying to prove that Genesis was written by Adam

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The Hebrew tradition also holds that Moses is the author of the Pentuach, or Torah. See the following quote from the Wikipedia website.

 

The Torah is also known as the Five Books of Moses or the Pentateuch (Greek for "five containers," which refers to the scroll cases in which books were being kept). Other names include Hamisha Humshei Torah (חמשה חומשי תורה, "[the] five fifths/parts [of the] Torah") or simply the Humash (חומש "fifth"). A Sefer Torah is a formal written scroll of the five books, written by a Torah scribe under exceptionally strict requirements.

 

For Jews, the Torah was traditionally accepted as the literal word of God as told to Moses, a very difficult notion for those who are not connected to that type of thinking. For many, it is neither exactly history, nor theology, nor legal and ritual guide, but something beyond all three. It is the primary guide to the relationship between God and man, and the whole meaning and purpose of that relationship, a living document that unfolds over the generations and millennia.

 

Although both Jewish and Christian traditions hold Moses as the author of the Pentateuch any Hebrew or Christian scholar remotely interested in archeology, literary history, or cultural context of the Pentateuch would disagree. These days, most mainstream scholars do NOT consider Moses as the author of the Pentateuch, or Adam as the author of Genesis, for that matter

[Guest sbwilley]

What did Noah do for a living before he started making arks? He was a winemaker. Funny thing that God decided to destroy the whole population of the world because their cup of iniquity was full, and he found only one righteous man -- Noah. Was an "enabler" the best man God could find?

 

Also, how could the teetotalers be right about their doctrines regarding alcoholic beverages? If Noah made a living selling wine, was it "new wine" all of those sinners were drinking?

 

In Jesus' own words, once you've tasted the old wine, you'll never want to drink the new wine again. Noah couldn't have been selling Welch's, and Jesus didn't make Welch's at the wedding either.

 

Mythra, don't forget Noah!

 

This is the account of Noah.

      Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.

 

Oh the irony of ironies, one of the first things Noah does after the flood....

 

He gets hammered and passes out naked. What a righteous dude.

 

20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.

 

And, of course, his son immediately commits a sin (seeing his father naked?), which his grandson is then cursed for...

 

24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,

      "Cursed be Canaan!

      The lowest of slaves

      will he be to his brothers."

 

    26 He also said,

      "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem!

      May Canaan be the slave of Shem.

 

    27 May God extend the territory of Japheth;

      may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,

      and may Canaan be his slave."

 

So what was the point of all that world destruction if sin was just going to come right back into play again? Shouldn't they have been righteous for at least ONE generation before plunging back into evil again?

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