Speaking in Tounges, fact or fiction? Gift or not

[Xthebuilder]

All of my arguements are going to be based on scriptures, both from the old testament and the new testament. The "pentecost" was a prophecy made in the Old Testament, and fulfilled in the new. This time period fulfilled Moses desire in the book of Numbers (11:29) that all would prophesy, and was followed by numerous other prophecy by OT writers. Although throughout the bible there were individuals anointed by the Spirit, always followed by signs, usually prophecy, but in the case of Joshua and Elisha control over water/nature, the signs were increased at the day of Pentecost. The theophanys (appearances of God) were visual, vocal, and the anointing of the Spirit came with the utterance of other languages. Peter defended this in the Book of Acts, and throughout this historical account it repeatedly shows different people bieng baptized in the H.S. and tounges bieng evident of such afterwards.

I understand the skeptism behind many peoples thoughts or feelings, that the tounges spoken then were understood by others, because it was in thier native languages. However, I have enough research to show that the Spirit also gave a "prayer" language and this was tounges.

So, I guess I am open to any and all questions or comments.

 

 

Ric

[Checkmate]

Um...I hate to burst your bubble, xthebuilder, but THIS is NOT a "Christian" forum, to discuss your silly beliefs. No one here believes ANYTHING that you do, so why are you asking us about "speaking in tongues"?

 

It's bullshit. End of story. Take your "discussion" to a CHRISTIAN forum where it will be better received.

 

Now go away before I get REALLY angry.

[MQTA]

speaking in tonges... how about wearing thongs? much better subject.

 

people psyche themselves out all the time, what an imagination the human brain has, and stroked by ego, you can utter anything you like

 

most of the people don't speak clear English, who cares about nonsensical words they utter

[a midnight star]

I know that when I was a christian and speaking in tongues, I always felt as if I was faking it. I never felt like it was real.

 

The difference between now and then is that where I felt like I was doing something wrong, now I know that I was in fact faking it.

[MQTA]

ego trying to impress your peers

 

mommy lookit me lookit me

 

religion is ego based, they may use the term spirit and spirituality, and may get all glassy eyed, but until one knows True spirituality, totally sans religion, they only know what they're exposed to, never the full picture

 

 

thanks for admitting it's like professional wrestling

 

it's all all for show

 

life is all for show

[Vigile]

ego trying to impress your peers

 

mommy lookit me lookit me

 

religion is ego based, they may  use the term spirit and spirituality, and may get all glassy eyed, but until one knows True spirituality, totally sans religion, they only know what they're exposed to, never the full picture

thanks for admitting it's like professional wrestling

 

it's all all for show

 

life is all for show

 

They tried to get me to do it, but I wouldn't do it unless it came naturally. I refused to fake it. It drove one pastor nuts. He told me to go sit on top of a mountain and pray and fast until I overcame whatever it was that was blocking it.

 

My mom admitted to me that she was peer pressured into it when she was a teenager. She still remains a xtian for some reason.

 

I tend to once again agree with the Grinch (go figure). I don't see the point in debating theological interpretation here since we reject the premise.

[a midnight star]

I was one of those who only did it in private. You know that whole pray in the closet thing. I wanted to be a "good" and "real" christian so I did and then tried to convince myself that I was actually doing it.

[Ouroboros]

My counter questions to XtheB are:

 

1. Why would God give such a "gift"?

During trance in pagan religions there are people that speak gibberish too.

There are recorded mental illnesses that causes people to speak gibberish.

 

It's not a sign of something supernatural, but rather a sign of demon possession or mental illness, or maybe just a mental skill.

 

The question is why would God give a gift that easily is misunderstood?

 

2. Is it a sign of the Holy Spirits indwelling in a person?

 

First speaking in tongues can be taught. People can learn to do this.

 

Robin Williams and other non-religious comedians can "speak in tongues".

I saw a documentary many years ago, and Williams is extremely skilled in the art of making gibberish sentences that sounds like many different languages. He imitated Russian, Chinese, Italian and many other languages, but it was just made up words, and it sounded like those languages. And it was total improv.

 

3. Do you lose it when de-converting?

 

I can still speak in tongues, whenever I decide to do so, does it mean that I'm still "born again" while I don't believe anymore?

[Antlerman]

I am following suit with Han and wish to address the issue from rationality first, then maybe we can quibble about theological interpretation. I feel strongly that the theology of Pentecostals works as much as most theology, reading back into it and stretching to fit a preconceived doctrine, but most importantly first - is it real?

 

I have a lot I could argue theologically, but let's evaluate it as whether it is a sign of God. Is it logical it would be? Do others do it? Does it predate Christianity?

 

1. How do you explain the phenomenon outside Christianity?

2. How do you explain the phenomenon before Christianity in pagan religions?

3. How do you explain its absence for 2000 years until 1901 Topeka, Kansas?

4. How do you account for the fact that I and other ex-Christian's can still do it - with the same "vocabulary"?

5. How do you account for the fact that linguists evaluating it do not consider it a real language?

6. How do you account for the fact that it always follows the phonemes of the native language of the speaker?

7. And most importantly, do you believe that Christians do not have the Holy Ghost who have not manifested this behavior?

 

Let's start there, and then we could evaluate Paul's take of it in 1 Corinthians.

 

BTW, I invited him to bring this discussion into the Colessum where we can avoid bashings, and yet address the validty of this less common Christian belief.

[♦ nivek ♦]

When someone in a theo-trance speaks clearly in a language not known to them but able to be understood by others *in the clear*, ie: daFatman sprecches da Outer Slobbivian, and someone fluent in same hears and can understand, I might begin to have a slight belief in tounges.

 

Now on other hand Ric, "tounges" is better left suited for a good deep discussion on oral sex, the place everyones tounge outabe used on a daily basis..

 

k, 19 inch neck, L

[Checkmate]

..................

BTW, I invited him to bring this discussion into the Colessum where we can avoid bashings, and yet address the validty of this less common Christian belief.

A-HA! So this is YOUR fault!

 

While I still question any "validity" possibly inherent in holding this discussion, I will relent and rein in my infamous disdain and derision, to see where such a discourse will go.

 

Have fun, children.

 

P.S. - "Mimi momo mizo lalila muela mirono riminos!" Now, have I just spoken in tongues, or not?

 

Peace.

[Ouroboros]

When someone in a theo-trance speaks clearly in a language not known to them but able to be understood by others *in the clear*, ie: daFatman sprecches da Outer Slobbivian, and someone fluent in same hears and can understand, I might begin to have a slight belief in tounges.

...

Actually, that can also be explained without being supernatural.

 

There are training material for speed learning other languages, where the person have pink noise and images presented to him while he hears dialogues from the language. If I remember right he also hear the translations. Because of the light and noise he goes into a slight trance, or daydreaming mode, which opens up the brain to learn faster. A person can speed learn the language in just a few days.

 

I have a theory about those occasions when people said they go to a new country and then speak in tongues and it's in that language. I think the subconscious can learn a language in just a few days, but our rational mind and conscious brain, stops us from using this knowledge. When speaking in tongues, people let go of the conscious, and let the subconscious through. So in my opinion, this is completely possible to happen. People can learn a language, speak in tongues and people will understand them, without anything supernatural has happened.

[Ouroboros]

P.S. - "Mimi momo mizo lalila muela mirono riminos!"  Now, have I just spoken in tongues, or not?

Hey! That's the dead language Miromosaluma. And you just said "So long, and thanks for all the fish!"

[aspirin99]

I am following suit with Han and wish to address the issue from rationality first, then maybe we can quibble about theological interpretation.  I feel strongly that the theology of Pentecostals works as much as most theology, reading back into it and stretching to fit a preconceived doctrine, but most importantly first - is it real? 

 

I have a lot I could argue theologically, but let's evaluate it as whether it is a sign of God.  Is it logical it would be?  Do others do it?  Does it predate Christianity?

 

1. How do you explain the phenomenon outside Christianity?

2. How do you explain the phenomenon before Christianity in pagan religions?

3. How do you explain its absence for 2000 years until 1901 Topeka, Kansas?

4. How do you account for the fact that I and other ex-Christian's can still do it - with the same "vocabulary"?

5. How do you account for the fact that linguists evaluating it do not consider it a real language?

6.  How do you account for the fact that it always follows the phonemes of the native language of the speaker?

7. And most importantly, do you believe that Christians do not have the Holy Ghost who have not manifested this behavior?

 

Let's start there, and then we could evaluate Paul's take of it in 1 Corinthians.

 

BTW, I invited him to bring this discussion into the Colessum where we can avoid bashings, and yet address the validty of this less common Christian belief.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good points, Antleman. Then again, I believe I've been in chuch services where you did a bit of tongue talking yourself - hehe.

 

Hey, how about this- When it was poured out as "a gift", it was in understandable other languages. In other words, the person might have spoken Botswanana natively, but someone heard them speaking German and understood it. Why doesn't this happen today in some verifiable format like it did in Acts 2?

[Checkmate]

Yet another proof that this "tongues" business is crap, is that you have people writing books and preaching messages to TEACH someone to speak in tongues?

 

Give me a break! Where in the bible do you see ANYONE being "taught" to speak in tongues? Coached into speaking "baby tongues", allowing your mind to relax into some trance. Was anyone in the upper room (book of Acts) "taught" or coached before they were imbued with power from on high? NO!

 

Hah! Why should the Holy Ghost require you to be "taught" to speak in "tongues"?

 

And as SerenityNow pointed out, this "tongues" nonsense is supposed to be for a witness. A legitimate language of man, given for the purpose of communicating the gospel to unbelievers. Not strange babble to communicate in some "heavenly language" for communing your unknown requests to "god". Charismatic crap!

 

Sigh. Let me go back into my cave. I'm about to burst a blood vessel.

 

"Yah Yah! Ben sloven kleep vew snarfin blad! Yist, klemmin?"

[TruthWarrior]

I never managed to accomplish the amazing magic power of godly babbling. I suppose ungodly babbling is defined with deeper darker tones or some other scary sounds. I know some of my Christian friends have faked it and others could swear it was real and do it sometimes in private. I would think those that did it for "real" just did it as some sort of release of emotion and thought (I bet you feel better after you do it too). I remember in one christian youth convention they tried to train us kids to do it by sort of freeing your mind and just "let it happen" or something like that.

 

Never saw anyone do some real "other language", but I have heard a rumors, of missionaries doing it in far off countries. Of course it is also said they also raise the dead and make peoples amputated appendages grow back. Never any proof, but people said they said it happened, so it must be true.

[a midnight star]

I never managed to accomplish the amazing magic power of godly babbling. I suppose ungodly babbling is defined with deeper darker tones or some other scary sounds. I know some of my Christian friends have faked it and others could swear it was real and do it sometimes in private. I would think those that did it for "real" just did it as some sort of release of emotion and thought (I bet you feel better after you do it too). I remember in one christian youth convention they tried to train us kids to do it by sort of freeing your mind and just "let it happen" or something like that. 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Meditation can have the same effect. But then again, isn't that what it is all about? To sit there and meditate on gd etc...?

 

I now meditate and get the same relaxation and uplifted feelings.

[MQTA]

meditation is quieting the mind. God must be in the Silence. Silence is the only thing that can't be divided. That's where He is.

 

How you can then LISTEN for Him is beyond me, if He is in the Silence, there's NOTHING to hear. Oh, maybe that's the point. LOL

[Ouroboros]

meditation is quieting the mind.  God must be in the Silence.  Silence is the only thing that can't be divided.  That's where He is.

 

How you can then LISTEN for Him is beyond me, if He is in the Silence, there's NOTHING to hear.  Oh, maybe that's the point.  LOL

Well, in some meditation forms you do make sounds, and in some you do movements. Qi Gong and Tai Chi is a meditation with movements, and there's another one I can't remember the name at the moment (have to find the book somewhere in my library).

 

Meditation is about focusing your mind, so you "self" becomes less evident and controlling. It's an exercise to let go of the higher consciousness and let the subconscious take over.

 

There's another problem with the Bibles account of speaking in tongues. In Acts where these disciples starts talking in other tongues and people in the city can hear their own language. It's a passage where you can see that Jerusalem was a center for travellers and trader from the "whole" world (Roman empire). And these traders were skilled in accounting and writing. They never reported this miracle back to Persia, Syria, Egypt, Rome, South Germany or any other place. So did this event really occur? I don't think so.

 

Next, I'd spoke to people that have (according to them) been able to speak a foreign language in tongues. A language they didn't know. How accurate these accounts are, I can't say, and I have never experienced it myself. But I think it is possible, without supernatural explanation, to do this in a natural way.

[a midnight star]

meditation is quieting the mind.  God must be in the Silence.  Silence is the only thing that can't be divided.  That's where He is.

 

How you can then LISTEN for Him is beyond me, if He is in the Silence, there's NOTHING to hear.  Oh, maybe that's the point.  LOL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I think I wasn't clear, sorry. I meditate still, just not on gd, but on quiet nothingness. Or if I feel like I must think of something it is now the stars and moon. On a dark blue sky. Things that are quiet and relaxing for me. It is the way I train my body to relax and let go of the day to day problems.

[Antlerman]

A-HA!  So this is YOUR fault! 

 

While I still question any "validity" possibly inherent in holding this discussion, I will relent and rein in my infamous disdain and derision, to see where such a discourse will go.

 

Have fun, children.

 

P.S. - "Mimi momo mizo lalila muela mirono riminos!"  Now, have I just spoken in tongues, or not?

 

Peace.

Yes, my fault. I'm hoping that in discussing this and examining the fallacies of both the illogic and inconsistency of it, along with how people force read the Bible to support their beliefs, it is yet another indication of how faith all to often leads to intellectual suicide. Call it believing the doctrine of tongues, or believing in a young earth. The reasoning that is manifested shows the world the true nature of religious belief, in my opinion.

 

Again I will avoid quibbling about interpretations, without first hearing answers to the bigger questions I listed above.

 

BTW, one big thing amongst many that began ripping apart my accepting it as a valid belief was witnessing a man I knew coming to the alter for over 3 years, every Sunday, praying to get the Holy Ghost. He prayed and prayed, and I saw him cry in desperation that he couldn't speak in tongues. He did not believe he was truly saved without it. How could he have that much faith to come every Sunday, yet still not be saved? AND that belief was based on how these Christians interpreted the Bible! So don't delude yourself that you have a better interpretation.

 

But let's answer the big questions first, then we'll look the poor scholarship behind interpreting obscure bible passages that led to a modern movement in Southern California with many other such newly born cults at the time.

[Antlerman]

Good points, Antleman. Then again, I believe I've been in chuch services where you did a bit of tongue talking yourself - hehe.

 

Hey, how about this- When it was poured out as "a gift", it was in understandable other languages. In other words, the person might have spoken Botswanana natively, but someone heard them speaking German and understood it.  Why doesn't this happen today in some verifiable format like it did in Acts 2?

First off, let's not be calling me a tongues talker here. One of my less than proud moments of life, but hey, at least it helped me to understand all religion is based on the same forced logic.

 

Secondly, you will hear tales from some person who heard of some missionary somewhere speaking to some tribesman in their native tongue, saving the whole village, blah, blah, blah. Afterwards, you'll hear about little grey men at Area 54, and so on. Miracles are in the eye of the desperately wanting to believe, as we have seen again and again. Faith is the substance that distorts all reason.

[Kryten]

. . . Afterwards, you'll hear about little grey men at Area 54, and so on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Area 54, where are you?

 

I learned to speak in tongues because it was required. It never just "came to me", so they worked with me and worked with me and coached me and coaxed me until I finally spewed a few syllables. Now it's easy.

 

I was wondering what would happen if I brought a couple of people with Tourette's Syndrome to church, and tried to get them to speak in tongues just for the entertainment.

[aspirin99]

First off, let's not be calling me a tongues talker here.  One of my less than proud moments of life, but hey, at least it helped me to understand all religion is based on the same forced logic.

 

Secondly, you will hear tales from some person who heard of some missionary somewhere speaking to some tribesman in their native tongue, saving the whole village, blah, blah, blah.  Afterwards, you'll hear about little grey men at Area 54, and so on.  Miracles are in the eye of the desperately wanting to believe, as we have seen again and again.  Faith is the substance that distorts all reason.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yep. That's why I said "verified." I just remembered a funny story. My aunt Deana once raised her hands at the alter and quoted the pledge of allegiance in Spanish, and the people at the alter went crazy - "She's got the Holy Spirit!" ahaha

[aspirin99]

Yep. That's why I said "verified."  I just remembered a funny story. My aunt Deana once raised her hands at the alter and quoted the pledge of allegiance in Spanish, and the people at the alter went crazy - "She's got the Holy Spirit!"  ahaha

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Or, maybe it was at the "altar" - or maybe she was sewing... nevermind.