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All xian discussion is framed under the assumed "except god" clause. Matter can't be made, except by god. Nothing is it's own cause ,except god............you see the pattern here.

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Guest Babylonian Dream

No clue why the "except when god does it" makes sense to them. What about God causing it answers anything at all?

 

Or maybe matter isn't made up of "stuff" the way we usually assume it to be, but energy in a vacuum? Being that its not "nothing" in the truest sense, it has properties, energy, etc... just like matter, and matter can form in it within the framework of the laws of physics? Sounds like a sufficient answer to me, unlike the "Gauddunne' " answer.

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Guest Valk0010

They would just appeal to authority but in a different way and say god can do whatever he wants because he is god. He can create energy or matter or whatever and damn us to hell.

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If matter cannot be created nor destroyed, how does God create matter?

Matter can be created and destroyed.

 

Energy can not.

 

The thing is that when you study chemistry one of the laws concerning chemical reactions is that the matter is not destroyed or created. But that's only in chemistry (and some physics).

 

It's different when it comes to physics.

 

You do know about the E=mc2 formula? And I assume you know about nuclear power. Our Sun converts matter to energy, i.e it loses mass while producing radiation.

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Hans,

Energy has mass. To be specific, it is called relativistic mass. The relativistic mass of a zero rest mass particle, such as a photon, is the mass of that particles energy via E=mc^2. For particles that do have rest mass, such as the kind atoms are made of, relativistic mass is the rest mass plus the mass of its energy. This is why objects that are made of matter can not reach the speed of light. When you add kinetic energy to an atom you increase its mass. If you add more kinetic energy you are not just accelerating its rest mass you are accelerating the mass of its energy as well, which further increases the mass. As the speed of light is approached the mass of even a sinlge atom would approach infinity.

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Hans,

Energy has mass. To be specific, it is called relativistic mass. The relativistic mass of a zero rest mass particle, such as a photon, is the mass of that particles energy via E=mc^2. For particles that do have rest mass, such as the kind atoms are made of, relativistic mass is the rest mass plus the mass of its energy. This is why objects that are made of matter can not reach the speed of light. When you add kinetic energy to an atom you increase its mass. If you add more kinetic energy you are not just accelerating its rest mass you are accelerating the mass of its energy as well, which further increases the mass. As the speed of light is approached the mass of even a sinlge atom would approach infinity.

So you're saying that inertia, radiation, and motion are all matter? And the first fraction of time, before quarks came to be, the early stage of the Big Bang was an enormous amount of matter? I'm confused. I thought the first state of big bang was a high energy state, not a high mass state. :shrug:

 

And how does this function together with the casimir effect or quantum tunneling? I think it's a lot easier to consider matter as a result of energy, not energy as a result of matter.

 

Lastly, I thought the mass increased as a result of the increasing speed, not that the speed, inertia, kinetic energy was the same as the increased mass.

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On a very basic level, if we're referencing the ancient Greek theory that something cannot be created from nothing, then the statement of God creating energy and matter is preposterous. However, any Fundamentalist will point out that this theory is found nowhere in the Bible.

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Hans,

Energy has mass. To be specific, it is called relativistic mass. The relativistic mass of a zero rest mass particle, such as a photon, is the mass of that particles energy via E=mc^2. For particles that do have rest mass, such as the kind atoms are made of, relativistic mass is the rest mass plus the mass of its energy. This is why objects that are made of matter can not reach the speed of light. When you add kinetic energy to an atom you increase its mass. If you add more kinetic energy you are not just accelerating its rest mass you are accelerating the mass of its energy as well, which further increases the mass. As the speed of light is approached the mass of even a sinlge atom would approach infinity.

So you're saying that inertia, radiation, and motion are all matter? And the first fraction of time, before quarks came to be, the early stage of the Big Bang was an enormous amount of matter? I'm confused. I thought the first state of big bang was a high energy state, not a high mass state. :shrug:

 

And how does this function together with the casimir effect or quantum tunneling? I think it's a lot easier to consider matter as a result of energy, not energy as a result of matter.

 

Lastly, I thought the mass increased as a result of the increasing speed, not that the speed, inertia, kinetic energy was the same as the increased mass.

 

 

You can consider matter and energy to be aspects of the same thing, that is why they can be exchanged. Energy and matter are both forms of mass. At the moment of the Big Bang the total mass of the universe was present, it was just in the form of energy. At some point after the Big Bang the universe expanded enough that energy density became low enough for mass to persist in the form of matter.

 

Increasing the speed and increasing the kinetic energy are the same thing. Relativistic mass is the sum of the mass of the matter and the mass of the energy. Increasing the kinetic energy increases the total mass.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence

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You can consider matter and energy to be aspects of the same thing, that is why they can be exchanged. Energy and matter are both forms of mass. At the moment of the Big Bang the total mass of the universe was present, it was just in the form of energy. At some point after the Big Bang the universe expanded enough that energy density became low enough for mass to persist in the form of matter.

Or mass is just another form of energy. I find that to be easier to deal with.

 

Increasing the speed and increasing the kinetic energy are the same thing. Relativistic mass is the sum of the mass of the matter and the mass of the energy. Increasing the kinetic energy increases the total mass.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence

Well, energy particles are not considered to be matter particles. So matter is not equivalent to mass or energy. Matter is just one of many forms that energy can take.

 

"Albert Einstein's theory of relativity shows that mass is a form of energy (see rest mass energy) so they can transform one into another. So the distinction between "matter" particles (such as those constituting atoms) and energy particles (say photons of light) is not wide - they can turn one into other (see annihilation and matter creation). However, this conversion does not affect the total energy of closed systems." Wikipedia: Conservation of Energy.

 

The opening post of this thread doesn't say "mass" but "matter." In your scenario, matter is in fact created by increasing velocity since you're equating mass and matter. Put it this way, if increasing kinetic energy increases the mass, and mass is the same as matter, then increasing kinetic energy is creating matter. (by your definition.)

 

"The principle of matter conservation may be considered as an approximate physical law that is true only in the classical sense, without consideration of special relativity and quantum mechanics. Another difficulty with the idea of conservation of "matter" is that "matter" is not a well-defined word scientifically, and when particles that are considered to be "matter" (such as electrons and positrons) are annihilated to make photons (which are often not considered matter) then conservation of matter does not take place, even in isolated systems.

 

Mass is also not generally conserved in open systems (even if only open to heat and work), when various forms of energy are allowed into, or out of, the system (see for example, binding energy). However, the law of mass conservation for closed (isolated) systems, as viewed over time from any single inertial frame, continues to be true in modern physics. The reason for this is that relativistic equations show that even "massless" particles such as photons still add mass and energy to closed systems, allowing mass (though not matter) to be conserved in all processes where energy does not escape the system. In relativity, different observers may disagree as to the particular value of the mass of a given system, but each observer will agree that this value does not change over time as long as the system is closed." Wikipedia: Conservation of Matter.

 

In other words, mass ≠ matter.

 

And as you know, the Casimir effect produces new particles in absolute vacuum, which shows that particles (matter) can be created and destroyed.

 

And, continuing with Wikipedia: "The energy from the Sun is an example of this form of energy conversion. In the Sun, the process of hydrogen fusion converts about 4 million tonnes of solar matter per second into electromagnetic energy, which is radiated into space."

 

So I can see your point about mass=energy, but I still can't see matter=mass.

 

---

 

Another Wikipedia article: "These quarks and leptons interact through four fundamental forces: gravity, electromagnetism, weak interactions, and strong interactions. The Standard Model of particle physics is currently the best explanation for all of physics, but despite decades of efforts, gravity cannot yet be accounted for at the quantum-level; it is only described by classical physics (see quantum gravity and graviton).[36] Interactions between quarks and leptons are the result of an exchange of force-carrying particles (such as photons) between quarks and leptons.[37] The force-carrying particles are not themselves building blocks. As one consequence, mass and energy (which cannot be created or destroyed) cannot always be related to matter (which can be created out of non-matter particles such as photons, or even out of pure energy, such as kinetic energy). Force carriers are usually not considered matter: the carriers of the electric force (photons) possess energy (see Planck relation) and the carriers of the weak force (W and Z bosons) are massive, but neither are considered matter either.[38] However, while these particles are not considered matter, they do contribute to the total mass of atoms, subatomic particles, and all systems which contain them.[39][40]" Wikipedia: Matter.

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