Testimonies

[Mike D]

I remember when I was a young Christian the first time I had to sit through a string of people giving their testimony in front of a group of people from our chruch. Aside from the fact I wasn't really sure why people gave them (wasn't this personal shit?), I remember the church mainly only let people with really dramatic testimonies give them (i.e. "I was a crackwhore living on the street 'till I met Jebus!"). So what's the point of them? Marketing tool? "Witnessing"? Competition between Christians to see who Jesus loves most?

 

P.S. I know that we do "testimonies" here, but I see these more like therapy and letting go of baggage, not like we're trying to one-up each other with who has the more exciting story. So I don't consider them testimonies in that sense....

[Ouroboros]

It's the way of keeping the "faith" alive. "Look how bad I was, and how good I'm now." It helps keeping the morale and focus on the belief. Or in other words, the tool to encourage the persistence of ignorance and delusion. Memetic reinforcement.

[pandora]

I hate testimonies, probably because I never had a "good" one to give.

 

When my husband and I were in Campus Crusade for Christ, in order to become a leader of some sort, he had to give a testimony. It had to be submitted for review before he could give it. It wasn't dramatic enough and they wouldn't let him lead because he wasn't on drugs or a sex fiend before his conversion (he converted at age 7 for gosh sakes....).

 

rollseyes

[Ouroboros]

I hate testimonies, probably because I never had a "good" one to give. 

98962[/snapback]

Same here. I never had anything to say, because I also converted at age of 7. And never drank, partied, smoked, took drugs, hang out with friends or had sex with cute girls. So I pretty much was a booring religious teenage geek... until now... now I'm just booring old geek.

[Lizard]

I always had good testimonies to give..good in the sense that I was "bad".

 

A teen in the 70's, it was sex, drugs, booze. Add to that growing up in a nonxtian family that had occultic leanings..boy, I could give one!

 

Problem was..as an unmarried female(at that time) with three children, I was too bad. I hadn't turned things around much. At 20, when I "accepted" Christ, I was already pregnant. Then, I did it two more times..so, I was a "bad" witness. Shoulda had the kids first, then done the religion thing.

 

Giving my testimony made me really feel like crap. Such a loser I was, ya know?

[Godless Wonder]

Not sure if this is really related... but anyway.

 

There's this guy at my work who's a Calvinist, who claims that he one day "just realized" Christianity had to be true.. blah blah blah. He knows I'm an atheist, and we've had several conversations about all this, lasting, in total, maybe three or four hours spread over four or five conversations. He's an okay guy as it goes, and as these sorts of "atheist vs. Christian" conversations go, the ones I've had with him have been much better than average.

 

Anyway, in probably in 3 of the 4 or so conversations I've had with him, he's mentioned how he "used to be into drugs and alchohol in a big way," (not his exact words, but something close to that.) and how he used to "be into a lot of occult stuff," and so on. What struck me as weird was that he would say this as if it bolstered his case.

 

In my mind, it was more like, "Ok, so you used to do a lot of drugs and believe a lot of stupid occult shit, so basically, you're telling me that youve always been a moron, and now you're still a moron, just that now you're a Christian moron." Though it was clear to me that this was not the effect he imagined that his testimony should have.

 

What I'm getting at is that, from the contents of this thread, it would seem that what is viewed as "good testimony" by the Christian establishment is actually not a good testimony, in that it involves the testifier confessing first off to be an unreliable moron.

[Mythra]

Prior to my conversion, I was into a Japanese sect of buddhism. This group I was in fixes their eyes on a scroll while chanting. So, that one usually got a few gasps. Praying to a scroll gets almost as many points as being a heroin addict.

[Lizard]

Yeah..I guess I was an unreliable moron..or is that just part of being a teenager?

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

Not sure if this is really related...  but anyway.

 

There's this guy at my work who's a Calvinist, who claims that he one day "just realized" Christianity had to be true.. blah blah blah.  He knows I'm an atheist, and we've had several conversations about all this, lasting, in total, maybe three or four hours spread over four or five conversations.  He's an okay guy as it goes, and as these sorts of "atheist vs. Christian" conversations go, the ones I've had with him have been much better than average.

 

Anyway, in probably in 3 of the 4 or so conversations I've had with him, he's mentioned how he "used to be into drugs and alchohol in a big way," (not his exact words, but something close to that.) and how he used to "be into a lot of occult stuff," and so on.  What struck me as weird was that he would say this as if it bolstered his case.

 

In my mind, it was more like, "Ok, so you used to do a lot of drugs and believe a lot of stupid occult shit, so basically, you're telling me that youve always been a moron, and now you're still a moron, just that now you're a Christian moron."  Though it was clear to me that this was not the effect he imagined that his testimony should have.

 

What I'm getting at is that, from the contents of this thread, it would seem that what is viewed as "good testimony" by the Christian establishment is actually not a good testimony, in that it involves the testifier confessing first off to be an unreliable moron.

98994[/snapback]

 

 

You know, now that you mention it, you've made a pretty damned good point!

And....it's kinda funny!

 

 

[Wotanaz]

Marketing tool? 

 

Definitely. And a dishonest one at that.

[Mike D]

When my husband and I were in Campus Crusade for Christ, in order to become a leader of some sort, he had to give a testimony.  It had to be submitted for review before he could give it.  It wasn't dramatic enough and they wouldn't let him lead because he wasn't on drugs or a sex fiend before his conversion (he converted at age 7 for gosh sakes....).

 

rollseyes

98962[/snapback]

So it wasn't just my church then. And yeah that was my problem too, I started going to church since about 5 and officially became a Christian about 7. I guess we weren't like all those evil sinning 7 year olds who were boozing it up and whoring around already

[Asuryan]

So what's the point of them?  Marketing tool?  "Witnessing"?  Competition between Christians to see who Jesus loves most? 

 

98887[/snapback]

 

Again, the Italian point of view...

No Witnessing here, as no catholic knows how to do that. No competition between christians here, it doesn't seem to be the point of all that.

Heck, no testimonies in church, to think of it, because the Mass ritual is fixed and can't be changed, no matter what. The old ritual doesn't show a point for testimonies or something like that, so, no testimonies in church.

 

But we children were encouraged to tell our testimonies in SCHOOL. (Public school. Public school of a theorically NON RELIGIOUS country. ). Middle school.

The children went there, stood up in front of the class, and no matter what shit they put forth, no matter if all of that was made up on the moment, or if the boy that spinned the tale was the worst asshole bully in the whole school... in the end, everybody got an applause from the rest of the class and the professors.

The reason they all invented that shit? Peer approval... and...

"Look at me!" "Look at me!" "Look at meeee!".

 

Then they asked me if I too had a testimony to share. (I never raised my hand from the beginning of that farce). I said that I had nothing to share because I wasn't a christian anymore.

The teachers just stood there, awed and clearly saddened by my words, and the whole class started BOOing me. 11 or 12 years old children, BOOing and shouting like pure-bred 40yrs old fundamentalists.

 

Thinking back at it still makes me wanna puke. That's what social pressure and indoctrination will do to children.

[Lunar Shadow]

It's the way of keeping the "faith" alive. "Look how bad I was, and how good I'm now." It helps keeping the morale and focus on the belief. Or in other words, the tool to encourage the persistence of ignorance and delusion. Memetic reinforcement.

98898[/snapback]

 

 

 

I think thats why I never was asked to give my testamony Hans. See when you are a Xtian all your life (as I was) it just went from bad to worse then a little better then a shit load worse. If I were to give a testemony today it would be dramatic and woderful but I don't think they want to hear it due to the fact that I left their little cult. what are you gonna do?

[thomas]

Marketing tool?

98887[/snapback]

 

Yes, internal and external marketing.

 

Internal: To keep people in the church committed (as HanSolo has described)

External: To get new converts and to attract members from other denominations.

 

In both cases the basic message is, that the testimonies proves the preaching and christian practice in the church in question.

[Bluesman]

So what's the point of them?  Marketing tool?  "Witnessing"?  Competition between Christians to see who Jesus loves most? 

 

There!! You hit the nail on the head. COMPETITION. Who was the worst? Who got saved in the most glorious manor?, And who loves Jebus more? And the winner gets the "Super cool Christian of the Night" award

[Ouroboros]

Could testimonies in Church be similar to how testimonies are done in alchoholics anonymous? I never been to one, but I heard they do that there too. Is that true? Like "I used to drink yada yada, and now I haven't had a drink for 3 months." Things like that.

 

And like Thomas said, it's also the purpose of advertizing. To tell outside people "look, we give results, people get better by joining our cult" kind'a thing.

 

The competition thing sounds about right too. I remember that some people witnessing exaggerated their previous conditions and current conditions to make it look more attractive. Say for instance someone drank a glass of wine a week before, and it becomes "I was a drunkard", and now when they only feel depressed once a month, suddenly becomes "I'm not so depressed anymore." Tweaking and spinning the facts to make it sound better, is in a lying, but they don't see it that way. They're not honest to themselves from starters, and it comes out in their witness statement.

[Ms. K]

*sigh*

 

To me, having been there, done that, it's a patently dishonest marketing tool.

 

Plus, it's always a good crowd-pleaser to have some nice looking guy or girl standing in front of the congregation, dressed nicely, breathlessly reporting on how they used to be a drunk, or a whore, or a junkie, but ever since they found Jeebus, they've been SAVED! Hallelujah! Glory! That way the congregation can look at the nicely dressed guy or girl in front of them and say to one another, "See? Without Jeebus, she'd be a skanky whore! He'd be a drunken bum! They wouldn't be dressed in Abercrombie and Fitch! If we follow Jeebus, WE can look that good in Abercrombie and Fitch! Glory!"

 

Of course, if you get to know someone who has a dramatic testimony like that a little better, and you find out that some of it is a little embellished, or that none of it is true, you respect them a little less. Unless, of course, you are still so involved in the cult you think that lying for Jeebus is okay, because it gets people to be saved! Glory! If not, you ask questions, and you are told by a flustered witnesser, "Well, Pastor said that adding details was okay, because the Lord said so."

 

Yeah....lying for Jeebus makes it all better.

 

Oh, I'm sorry, do I sound a little bitter? I apologize. I guess I just don't appreciate people who play to the crowd, by playing on their emotions, to try to make their cult grow.

[queenie]

Anyone here remember Mike Warnke? Christian comedian who supposedly was heavily into Satanism - a high priest and all. That was his testimony and it was a powerful one. (My husband and I used to be huge fans of his) Anyway, in 1992, Cornerstone Mag. published a huge cover story saying that they had uncovered that everything he'd been saying about his Satanist past was a lie. It pretty much buckled his ministry to the ground.

 

In looking it up again here to make sure I wasn't talking non-sense, it appears as though no one really knows the truth even still. He's still in ministry, but on his website anyway, the Satanic past gets only a minor mention.

 

Prime example of ballooning the truth so you'll have an awesome testimony story, and for him, an awesome ministry/job/whatever.

 

Although, for normal, run of the mill joe's - I guess the idea of testimony isn't much different than what we do here, at least in my experience. Of course, maybe I was just delusional too, assuming their intentions were pure. I didn't come from the background of "I was born a crack whore and now I love Jebus" kind of testimonies, so maybe I never really got the full meat of the idea.

[Ms. K]

Anyone here remember Mike Warnke?  Christian comedian who supposedly was heavily into Satanism - a high priest and all.  That was his testimony and it was a powerful one.  (My husband and I used to be huge fans of his)  Anyway, in 1992, Cornerstone Mag. published a huge cover story saying that they had uncovered that everything he'd been saying about his Satanist past was a lie.  It pretty much buckled his ministry to the ground.

 

In looking it up again here to make sure I wasn't talking non-sense, it appears as though no one really knows the truth even still.  He's still in ministry, but on his website anyway, the Satanic past gets only a minor mention.

 

Prime example of ballooning the truth so you'll have an awesome testimony story, and for him, an awesome ministry/job/whatever. 

 

 

99429[/snapback]

 

Oh, some of us remember Mike Warnke.

 

I have read the whole Cornerstone article. It's been turned into a book, IIRC.

 

I ended up showing it to my husband. He was HORRIFIED. Not only did Mr. K used to be a Mike Warnke fan, but Mr. K is also a very nice man who is still a Christian. He considered what Mike Warnke did to be VERY unchristian.

[Ouroboros]

I ended up showing it to my husband.  He was HORRIFIED.  Not only did Mr. K used to be a Mike Warnke fan, but Mr. K is also a very nice man who is still a Christian.  He considered what Mike Warnke did to be VERY unchristian.

99445[/snapback]

Or maybe what Mike Warnke did was very Christian!

[Ms. K]

Or maybe what Mike Warnke did was very Christian!

99470[/snapback]

 

Don't get me wrong....I agree, it's a typical Christian thing to do. Lying is okay as long as you're Lying For The Lord! Glory! (yep, I've been around here too long, thanks Brother Jeff!)

 

To Mr. K, it's an unchristian thing to do, because he firmly believes in the tenets of Christianty (sort of, thanks to me, he's gettin' a little backslidden), and lying is wrong.

 

Go figure....he was really insulted that Mike Warnke would give such a testimony, and then later even come right out and admitted that he "embellished" his story (I read that on his own website, and I was not surprised). Of course, Mike Warnke didn't admit that he outright LIED, just that he "embellished".

 

Yeah, you play with semantics if that makes you sleep better at night, dude...go right ahead.

[Ouroboros]

Go figure....he was really insulted that Mike Warnke would give such a testimony, and then later even come right out and admitted that he "embellished" his story (I read that on his own website, and I was not surprised).  Of course, Mike Warnke didn't admit that he outright LIED, just that he "embellished". 

...

99572[/snapback]

Of course not. Christians can't lie, so when they do, they really don't! ...

[BlueGiant]

I would be tempted to give my testimony now, the whole became Christian, all that jazz, and then go "...but that's not the end of the story." And then proceed to tell how I left. Kind of a blindside.

 

I swear I have never heard one of those whiz bang testimonies that sounded true, ever. It always appeared to be just a show, and about as fake as a badly acted one at that.

[blueheron]

In my old church, testimonies were often long winded when they came from the old men in the crowd. Some would go on and on, preaching a sermonette in a droning, monotone voice. It wasn't so much what you said though. Most people would say stuff like "I have to stand up for God. If I let this revival pass without speaking up for the Lord, he'd take me out behind the woodshed when I got home. I've been a Christian for -- years, and I've never been forsaken by the Lord. He's never left me, never let me down. I've had some hard times in my life (turns and talks to another old man in the crowd) Joe, you know what my life has been like - you were right there with me. God had to really get ahold of this ol' stubborn boy! (Joe smiles and nods while congregation chuckles) I want to be found faithful when He comes back! When the Lord breaks through those clouds, I want to be ready to go meet him! I want to be found worthy! I'm going to keep preachin' for him wherever I go. I want to make it. I've come too far now to quit now. Just pray for me that I'll make it."

 

During all this, there will be amens and "you tell it brother" from other people in the crowd.

 

Everyone is pressured to testify. The leader of the group scans the crowd, trying to guilt you into testifying: "You don't have anything good to say about the Lord? Nobody can stand up and say one good thing the Lord has done for you this week?" That always prompts someone to stand up and repeat the above.

 

The only juicy type of confessions I heard in these testimonies, were things like, "I would go out drinkin' with my friends. So and so from this church would witness to me and tell me I was going to die and go to hell if I didn't quit drinking."

 

Generally the same people testified, and said pretty much the same thing each time. One man in particular, would jump up and start off on his monologue, get himself worked up pretty good so that he was yelling, pacing the floor, make hyperventilating noises, start shaking hands, and belt out "GLORY!" loud enough to make half the people in front of him come out of their seats.

 

Oh, I hated the testimony time

 

Or maybe what Mike Warnke did was very Christian!

99470[/snapback]

 

Don't get me wrong....I agree, it's a typical Christian thing to do. Lying is okay as long as you're Lying For The Lord! Glory! (yep, I've been around here too long, thanks Brother Jeff!)

 

To Mr. K, it's an unchristian thing to do, because he firmly believes in the tenets of Christianty (sort of, thanks to me, he's gettin' a little backslidden), and lying is wrong.

 

Go figure....he was really insulted that Mike Warnke would give such a testimony, and then later even come right out and admitted that he "embellished" his story (I read that on his own website, and I was not surprised). Of course, Mike Warnke didn't admit that he outright LIED, just that he "embellished".

 

Yeah, you play with semantics if that makes you sleep better at night, dude...go right ahead.

 

I remember Mike Warke! My youth group leaders loaned me their albums (records!) of him. I even went with them and the rest of the youth group to see him live. I don't remember anything about Satanism, but I remember his stories of extreme drug junkie life. I always wondered what happened to him.

[Taphophilia]

In the churches I went to not just anyone could give their testamony. They had to be invited to do it and were usually a guest speaker for one of the services.

 

They were the "I ate my aborted fetus right after I molested it, but Jeebus rescued me from that abomination, and now I am serving as Children's Program Director for some major ministry. Please buy my book." variety.