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Goodbye Jesus

What is real in Xnity?


Guest Canuck

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First, I'm a new member and want to say how much I appreciate ex-christian.net.

 

I have studied the biblical inerrancy doctrine, the historicity of Jesus, etc., etc., for years. I've done this in large part to understand the Xn mindset because at one point in my life most of my friends, including my then-wife, and my kids, converted to a very conservative, born again Christian group. When I failed to convert I was vilified (if you are not for us you are against us...), and that is when things got pretty ugly.

 

Years have passed, and love has mostly prevailed with my family and friends. However, after all these years there remains a question that I still think about and I am particularly interested in how members of this forum can help clarify the issue for me. I apologize if this question has already been discussed to death.

 

I have notice that conservative, born again Christianity has an absolute, black and white perspective of life. This helps support the belief in an all good God and all bad devil and helps to justify the many bad things done in God's name. However, we all know that day to day life is lived in shades of grey, and not in the stark opposites of good versus evil.

 

With the above in mind, I acknowledge many bad things about Christianity, but I also acknowledge that it has done good in the world. In other words, I am not adhering to the black and white perspective that governs many Xn perspectives of life by only seeing the bad things about Xnity.

 

For example, there has been a lot of "no strings attached" help for hurricane victims by some Xn groups, while others used their "compassionate support" for hurricane victims as an excuse to try to win more souls for Jesus. The point is, some Xn help for hurricane victims was authentically provided from the heart in order to do good and to help others, and not for alterior motives.

 

Thanks for putting up with the preamble, but I have one final setup before my question...I know from watching family and friends convert to born again Xnity that their initial experience with Xnity was based on a transforming experience of something wonderful. In many cases, it changed lives for the better with one friend in particular finding a peace and fulfillment that I had never seen him experience before. It didn't last forever, but while it did last it was largely a good thing. He also did things from that place that weren't all that great, but for him, there was a definite positive impact on his life for years.

 

BTW, I know my friends tell me the experience is from the Holy Spirit. I also know that many other religions have similiar experiences.

 

My question is this...where is that initial, life changing, positive conversion experience from? I have never been a born again Xn so I can only speculate. Many members of this forum have been there. Any insights?

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Well to answer your question, Xtianity is mostly hokeypokey. I don't beleive that the Bible was written by God or Jesus or whatever the Xtians worship. Religion is not real because none of it is provable. The agape Xtians (like Salvation Army and the like) are in my opinion the only Xtians worthy of any respect and fellowship. The rest are wannabes.

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Well to answer your question, Xtianity is mostly hokeypokey. I don't beleive that the Bible was written by God or Jesus or whatever the Xtians worship. Religion is not real because none of it is provable. The agape Xtians (like Salvation Army and the like) are in my opinion the only Xtians worthy of any respect and fellowship. The rest are wannabes.

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That is kind of my points, that I agree with you that the Bible was not written by God, yet here are people having some sort of real experience that transforms their lives for the better (and worse). So where is that "better" part coming from?

 

Does that help clarify the question....or is the question even valid?

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Many people have been helped by converting to many different kinds of religion. There are people that claims that by converting to Islam they've been helped. I'm sure there are similar experiences for people that have converted to Buddhism, Judaism and other religions as well. I see that my life turned to the better by de-converting. So why is the experience of change in direction of you life so powerful? Is it the cause itself, the idea that you turn to something that you can believe in and feel some kind of truth in, that helps you move to "higher grounds"? I'm not sure. It could be the feeling of getting yourself in line with a higher truth that causes this. It's hard to tell. :shrug:

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Many people have been helped by converting to many different kinds of religion. There are people that claims that by converting to Islam they've been helped. I'm sure there are similar experiences for people that have converted to Buddhism, Judaism and other religions as well. I see that my life turned to the better by de-converting. So why is the experience of change in direction of you life so powerful? Is it the cause itself, the idea that you turn to something that you can believe in and feel some kind of truth in, that helps you move to "higher grounds"? I'm not sure. It could be the feeling of getting yourself in line with a higher truth that causes this. It's hard to tell.  :shrug:

99205[/snapback]

 

I think that this is getting closer to answering my question. I know that Hindus and charimatic Xns can put themselves into an altered state, but this is not the precise issue I'm looking to clarify. It is the wonderous sense (blissfulness?) that one gets (from any religion) at times, but especially at the beginning, or so say my b/a Xn friends.

 

Anyway, thanks for trying to help me get a clearer sense of this aspect of conversion that I can't quite put my finger on.

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Religious experiences are hard to classify and define, but modern psychology has an interesting take on the whole thing. I am not knowledgable enough on it to describe it to you, but I have read some things that convince me that they are no more than the human mind tricking itself. There is a lot of stuff out there on this, and if I could put the articles I am thinking of online, I would do so. I bet some member here has a good think. I will try and go find one for you.

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I haven't read any of the links yet, but this seems to be a somewhat decent source--

http://www.psychwww.com/psyrelig/

 

However, note the website is a .com and not .net, so be careful...

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I should mention Willam James' classic The Varieties of Religious Experience. (Sorry, don't know how to italicize on the quick reply function.) It is considered truly authoritative when one understakes the study of the the psychology of religion.

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Many people have been helped by converting to many different kinds of religion. There are people that claims that by converting to Islam they've been helped. I'm sure there are similar experiences for people that have converted to Buddhism, Judaism and other religions as well. I see that my life turned to the better by de-converting. So why is the experience of change in direction of you life so powerful? Is it the cause itself, the idea that you turn to something that you can believe in and feel some kind of truth in, that helps you move to "higher grounds"? I'm not sure. It could be the feeling of getting yourself in line with a higher truth that causes this. It's hard to tell.  :shrug:

99205[/snapback]

 

 

Very true...and on the flip side of that there are those who's lives have not changed for the better since becoming a Christian. They still have the same "life" problems they did before. Infact there are many Non-Christians who can deal with stress, depression, etc better that their Christian counterparts proving that there is no basis to conclude that a belief in God is necessary or helpful in dealing with lifes troubles.

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Very true...and on the flip side of that there are those who's lives have not changed for the better since becoming a Christian. They still have the same "life" problems they did before. Infact there are many Non-Christians who can deal with stress, depression, etc better that their Christian counterparts proving that there is no basis to conclude that a belief in God is necessary or helpful in dealing with lifes troubles.

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I often ask them if they're living "mostly at peace, happy, and relatively depression and anxiety-free". I am, since 1993. Since I found Wayne Dyer's early books. Had a profound change on me, never looked back. It really is all in how you see things, how you react to people, and how you detach from outcomes that are out of your control anyway.

 

I guess I could say Wayne Dyer is my Savior. Boy that pisses some people off when you say that.

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It really is all in how you see things, how you react to people, and how you detach from outcomes that are out of your control anyway.

 

I couldn't agree with this statement more. Our minds like to exaggerate the little things that tick us off, or upset us because in the moment it's all we can think about. I have learned over time to step back from the problem and really look at the big picture (ie: why its causing my unpleasant feelings, who else is going to be affected by my irrational behaviour, what is the worst thing that could possibly happen, is it worth it the misery its causing me?) Usually you will find the answer is no to that last question.

 

I have been able to resolve alot of issues diplomatically and positively once I seperate myself from the emotion and approach it with a clear mind. No belief in a God was/is necessary.

 

Yet I see so many people around me who state they are going to just "let go and let God", but the problem continues to torment them because they have not dealt with it directly. They are waiting for "magicwands and pixie dust" to take care of their problems, and the reality is that it just doesn't work that way. If I wait for the invisible man in the sky to solve all my problems I'm going to be waiting a looooong time!

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I have had so many different experiences with religion, it's hard to chalk it all up to this or that. I think the bottom line is that we are emotional creatures, we have emotions, sometimes irrational impulses that allow us to thrive and cope with life. In this day and age, it's as though so many variables have been removed by convenience and technology, that our emotions and paranoia are being transferred to religion, conspiracy, ghosts, etc. I have had strong feelings when meeting someone with whom I clicked, or with discovering a new hobby or book or work of art that I related to...

 

It's like those people on the real haunting TV shows...the atmosphere at church is so perfect for god, like a dark old building is perfect for ghosts, that the slightest tapping, internal or external, will be amplified by the mind into a communication of some sort from that being that everyone has stretched their bow strings of emotion for. Do you get what I'm trying to say? It's kind of hard to formulate. Blah, blah, blah.

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Canuck:

 

What I see the purpose of most religious bodies doing is simply making a palce for like minded folks to meet unhampered.

 

"Social Club of the Last Bluehaired Social Misfits for Jebus" and such.

 

If you don't like the blue ties at one assembly, go to the place tha worships and practices red tie wearing.

 

Not to your liking? Head over to the "Third Silly Goose Church of Purple Cowboyhat Wearing Hippo Dancing Dog Molesters Church and Meetin'hall" and participate, and forget the red and blue ties, its bolo ties there!

 

I tell those who invite me to their particular assembly and sect meeting houses that "If I wanted a social club, I'd renew mine at the Elks, there I can cuss, drink, smoke, and pick up women and dance without the scowling and eyebrow arching".

 

The assorted religious "meets" are filling every nook of the human imagination concering "What God Is". Since no one *knows* the assortment abounds.

 

Just another unhumble opinion by daFatman.

 

kL

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