I'm Not A Religious Churchgoer But I Believe In Jesus Words, Anyone Else?

[Naughtyhamster]

Jesus had some really wise things to say of how people should get along with each other and also moral laws. However, I believe like Gandhi said:

 

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

[BrotherJosh]

[Antlerman]

I believe in God and Jesus but in the way that it means I must respect and care for all people and to not think that I am going to heaven simply because I believe but that everything I do or dont and the motive will be judged in the end. And I know that many nonchristians are good people. But many christians are not, they are wrongly devisive and elite.

I think what is helpful is to not think in terms of any afterlife, or heaven or hell. In fact, what I see in many Christians, if not most, is that heaven and being saved, and escaping hell, and whatnot, promotes the opposite of a spiritually realized life expressed through love. On the contrary it promotes narcissism. It's all about their reward, and as an extension of that punishment of those whom they see as threatening to them and their shiny little house in the sky with Jesus. It's a sad thing actually.

 

The other night I was participating in the Secular Bible Study group I've been part of for the last couple years (You can see here to understand what that is: Link). The presenter who was a Christian with some interesting views brought up this idea of heaven after this life. I responded stating that I saw that all there was eternity, and that was realized only in the present. The "choice" he was promoting I said was one we all choose, but it's not about some reward in the great beyond, but about this life here and now. All there is is now; again and again and again. How we choose to live is the reward or the waste of this life as us now, and now, and now.

 

This cause him much consternation. "What about Hitler!?", he puzzled. I said to him that if that is how he sees some afterlife then it is about human vengeance and not higher life. I answered that Hitler was like a disease of that not just he was the sickness, but the whole body that supported him was an illness in the system of our evolution. It's not about personal rewards or vengeance, but about finding and promoting health and harmony. To realize that within yourself is in fact that "kingdom of God", so to speak. Hitler and the death that followed him was the tragic result of a disease, like a plague that wipes out 1/3 of a population. I have no need to see any god in heaven cast him into any hell for my sense of justice. Hitler is dead. We learned as a species from that disease what is not healthy for the world. Life becomes stronger over death through its embrace of Being.

 

It's an entirely different mindset, one that doesn't put "me" and my salvation, "my" reward, or "my" enemies punishment as the center of my thoughts about my existence. I find the whole afterlife theology taken literally like this to promote immature thought. They haven't moved beyond thinking about themselves. How can that be considered "saved"? It's really like a five year old having his dad buy him the shiniest bike on the block. The mind of a child.

[Xerces]

Jesus didn't say anything revolutionary, I don't need to believe in someone else to believe that I can also be good to people. You don't either.

[SummerMoon]

Jesus had some really wise things to say of how people should get along with each other and also moral laws. However, I believe like Gandhi said:

 

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

 

Good!

[mwc]

The online church is a real church near my house. I didn't want to say that in case anyone wanted the link. The theology student was condemning to someone who in paraphase said to "love your neighbor" as Jesus said this himself that hangs on the whole law and the prophets. He said that he didn't know anything when he gave a good response.

Here's one of the other stories I mentioned:

An atheist professor was teaching a college class and he told the class that he was going to prove that there is no God. He said, "God, if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give you 15 minutes!"

 

Ten minutes went by. He kept taunting God, saying, "Here I am, God. I'm still waiting."

 

He got down to the last couple of minutes and a Marine just returned from the Gulf and released from active duty and newly registered in the class walked up to the professor, hit him full force in the face, and

sent him flying from his platform. The professor struggled up, obviously shaken and yelled, "What's the matter with you? Why did you do that?"

 

The Marine replied, "God was busy watching over my buddies engaged in combat."

So do you get it? It's an apologetic. A line of bullshit. I got your story. Your story wasn't just about the whole treating your neighbor as yourself shtick. It was to show, just like this story does, that the "edumacated" aren't so much. The theology student wasn't as enlightened as he thought he was and the astronomy student was the more enlightened of the two. So why go to a regular church with all those theology folks when they're clearly so closed minded when you can get the wisdom of the "god" from anywhere? Even from this little church you're currently at?

 

It's the same lie the "big boxes" tell just spun differently. If you weren't trying so hard to tell me the meaning of the story that I already knew in all these other forms you could see you were being told the same lie too.

 

I didn't invent a moral God. I believe there is one and it scares me into not going to church because they don't have moral common sense. I have always believed this and the church has always tried to play down works and loving others, and humility etc.

You "believe" in a "moral God" and that makes it real? Sounds like you've invented a moral "god" so you can believe in it. Otherwise you would be able to demonstrate this moral "god" and could just know it existed and others could do the same.

 

Which "the church" is this you're talking about? If your moral "god" was real then it should have sent you to the correct "the church" I would think. I would think if it existed and had any morals it should ensure that such immoral "the churches" would not be around to put people off. But I guess it has morals but just no real motivation to do anything about them?

 

mwc

[Antlerman]

What happened tonight is that I was listening to a teaching from a church online. This has a man who is very very friendly looking and sounding, all the time. Its a terrible story he told. And this is typical even in the nice churches. This story took place, true: A man was doing cleaning work part time while in theology school and he starts talking to a man who works at the building he was cleaning. He tells the man he is in school for this, to know God's thoughts. The man has a degree in astronomy and says "do you want to know my thoughts on religion/philosophy?" "yes" "I believe in the golden rule, in doing to others how you would want to be treated, treating people fairly, and treating people right, in the end, with God, it will all work out" The theology student says "do you want to know my philosophy on astronomy" "yes" and in dripping sarcasm "twinkle twinkle little star how I wonder what you are...need I go on...in the same way you haven't studied the thoughts of God" This is insane. This is typical. They degrade people who do good. as if they are some criminal, evil, mean-spirited, conartist, satan worshipper.

I wanted to remark on this story earlier and will now. You are saying that on this online church this was being told proudly by the Christian speaker as if this were wisdom? I agree with you this reflects an incredible arrogance and disrespect on their part, let alone their blinded ignorance.

 

This trite little story in essence equates knowledge of God with the study of science. They are saying that what Jesus is portrayed as saying, that the entirety the Bible, the entire "law and prophets" can be fulfilled in the Golden Rule, is not attainable by humans without a specialized, highly technical scientific knowledge, like astronomy? How bloody ignorant and ironic.

 

This arrogant theology student took what this astronomer said about the core of religious expression and tromped on it, because to him it is worthless without specialized technical theological knowledge such as he had. Just like the story where Jesus is portrayed as having destroyed the challenge of the Pharisee in his simple answer, that same simple answer is the exact same one the professor gave. In this story you mentioned, the little theology student in essence kicked Jesus in the balls for that answer; in essence he mocked Jesus with 'dripping sarcasm'. The cast of characters is actually the man of science guy playing Jesus, the Christian believer the antagonist Pharisee. Ironic, isn't it?

[chosendarkness]

I believe in God and Jesus but in the way that it means I must respect and care for all people and to not think that I am going to heaven simply because I believe but that everything I do or dont and the motive will be judged in the end. And I know that many nonchristians are good people. But many christians are not, they are wrongly devisive and elite.

You've really hit the nail on the head about Christians being wrong for telling people being good doesn't get you to heaven. Most Christians don't see how twisted that is, but you have. As for still believing in Jesus and God, you should keep believing the way you want to and never let anyone tell you you're wrong or just imagining. When you're a Christian you think you know what everyone else should believe, and sometimes that attitude carries over to ex-Christians, but it's bullshit.. do whatever you want to do, believe whatever you want to believe.

 

It's down right bizarre to say that doing what Jesus said to do and letting God work it out in the end is evil and satanic. They want you do say you have faith, do no works and then believe you are one of the elite going to heaven. I do not know about myself and I don't mean that to just sound humble. I am lazy and have had mental problems over this and been irresponsible. I am definelty not any elite. I am proud to see others succeed and be happy and good without any screwed up noncommon sense religious language that is in every church.

 

It's just my opinion, but I don't think the kind of Christians that you're talking about ever wanted to be good in the first place. They'd rather just be right. People with good hearts don't fit in with them. Those who fit in get a buzz from feeling elite and looking down on others.

 

Don't be so hard on yourself though, telling yourself you're a bad person isn't good. The Christians I used to hang with would call themselves 'sinners', 'broken', 'unworthy', etc. but it's a false-piety. Saying those things actually reveals pride and elitism.

[SummerMoon]

What happened tonight is that I was listening to a teaching from a church online. This has a man who is very very friendly looking and sounding, all the time. Its a terrible story he told. And this is typical even in the nice churches. This story took place, true: A man was doing cleaning work part time while in theology school and he starts talking to a man who works at the building he was cleaning. He tells the man he is in school for this, to know God's thoughts. The man has a degree in astronomy and says "do you want to know my thoughts on religion/philosophy?" "yes" "I believe in the golden rule, in doing to others how you would want to be treated, treating people fairly, and treating people right, in the end, with God, it will all work out" The theology student says "do you want to know my philosophy on astronomy" "yes" and in dripping sarcasm "twinkle twinkle little star how I wonder what you are...need I go on...in the same way you haven't studied the thoughts of God" This is insane. This is typical. They degrade people who do good. as if they are some criminal, evil, mean-spirited, conartist, satan worshipper.

I wanted to remark on this story earlier and will now. You are saying that on this online church this was being told proudly by the Christian speaker as if this were wisdom? I agree with you this reflects an incredible arrogance and disrespect on their part, let alone their blinded ignorance.

 

This trite little story in essence equates knowledge of God with the study of science. They are saying that what Jesus is portrayed as saying, that the entirety the Bible, the entire "law and prophets" can be fulfilled in the Golden Rule, is not attainable by humans without a specialized, highly technical scientific knowledge, like astronomy? How bloody ignorant and ironic.

 

This arrogant theology student took what this astronomer said about the core of religious expression and tromped on it, because to him it is worthless without specialized technical theological knowledge such as he had. Just like the story where Jesus is portrayed as having destroyed the challenge of the Pharisee in his simple answer, that same simple answer is the exact same one the professor gave. In this story you mentioned, the little theology student in essence kicked Jesus in the balls for that answer; in essence he mocked Jesus with 'dripping sarcasm'. The cast of characters is actually the man of science guy playing Jesus, the Christian believer the antagonist Pharisee. Ironic, isn't it?

 

Yeah, it makes me shake inside. It's like you said. Common sense goodness is on the level of technical knowledge. I couldn't put that into those words but that's it. If you could see this guy, he's so friendly and charismatic, but I hear the words and I hear the hostility in them is bad.

 

What makes me so angry and confused is....okay, they KNOW better. I have proof that they choose to be this way for sake of the social perks of belonging to church. When they talk of watching movies that are fiction, they can point out who is good and who is bad...in both without religious labels known.. and the moral choices made and they cheer for the message of good, yet in real life they condemn the good actions of others! And they are jealous of the good works of others instead, by saying well they aren't a christian you know, they need Jesus or they are trying to compensate. See, they KNOW better.This confused me back to my teens.

 

I have learned a lot of wisdom from studying Christianity but it is in parts, not as the modern form of it in its mainstream whole. Their sense of goodness and them thinking they are the elite ones is what bothers my conscience. It always has! I'm early 40s and I still long for the church as a family but there is no family there, there is a bunch of cold snobs. People without empathy, or common sense. I have to face this reality and I have to just say look I am not one of them. I like Christian music too but I also like secular. I think I have been doing this black and white thing in my thinking where when I think I want to get away from it all I also think that I shouldn't listen to any sermons or chrisitan music, then when I miss those things I want to go back completely...now I'm saying, I know I like those things and I don't have to believe what they believe. I hope I will be okay.

[chosendarkness]

I have learned a lot of wisdom from studying Christianity but it is in parts, not as the modern form of it in its mainstream whole. Their sense of goodness and them thinking they are the elite ones is what bothers my conscience. It always has! I'm early 40s and I still long for the church as a family but there is no family there, there is a bunch of cold snobs. People without empathy, or common sense. I have to face this reality and I have to just say look I am not one of them. I like Christian music too but I also like secular. I think I have been doing this black and white thing in my thinking where when I think I want to get away from it all I also think that I shouldn't listen to any sermons or chrisitan music, then when I miss those things I want to go back completely...now I'm saying, I know I like those things and I don't have to believe what they believe. I hope I will be okay.

I know exactly how you feel, the sense of eliteness, masked by false humility, condescending, looking down on people who don't believe exactly the same -- that has always bothered me.

 

Sometimes people need to find themselves after being in Christianity for a long time, and it's good to totally stay away from anything Christian while they begin to find their identity. That's the way it was for me, that doesn't mean it should be that way for everyone. One thing I realized though was that the feelings of wanting to return to Christianity were based on fear. Fear of being wrong about Christianity and sinning against God, inviting satan into my life, jeopardizing my soul, etc. But mainly it was the fear of being alone. Luckily I stuck it out, stayed away from Christianity and eventually those fears went away, but I don't think they would have if I kept teetering on the edge.

 

I'm not saying it's the same with you,. the most important thing is to be true to yourself and not let fear stop you. I found that after I completely stopped believing in Christianity, I was totally free to believe whatever I wanted, even Christianity, but I realize it's not for me because I have no interest in it. Finding what you really want, with no hidden fear-based motivations, is very rewarding and gives you great direction in life.

[dB-Paradox]

I haven't read all the replies, but to address the original post...some of the words ascribed to Jesus are definitely good. Of course, Buddhism was teaching much of that half a millennium earlier. But yes, my favorite parts of the bible come from the New Testament, and they are the parts of forgiveness and love. But that's about it...

[SummerMoon]

I have learned a lot of wisdom from studying Christianity but it is in parts, not as the modern form of it in its mainstream whole. Their sense of goodness and them thinking they are the elite ones is what bothers my conscience. It always has! I'm early 40s and I still long for the church as a family but there is no family there, there is a bunch of cold snobs. People without empathy, or common sense. I have to face this reality and I have to just say look I am not one of them. I like Christian music too but I also like secular. I think I have been doing this black and white thing in my thinking where when I think I want to get away from it all I also think that I shouldn't listen to any sermons or chrisitan music, then when I miss those things I want to go back completely...now I'm saying, I know I like those things and I don't have to believe what they believe. I hope I will be okay.

I know exactly how you feel, the sense of eliteness, masked by false humility, condescending, looking down on people who don't believe exactly the same -- that has always bothered me.

 

Sometimes people need to find themselves after being in Christianity for a long time, and it's good to totally stay away from anything Christian while they begin to find their identity. That's the way it was for me, that doesn't mean it should be that way for everyone. One thing I realized though was that the feelings of wanting to return to Christianity were based on fear. Fear of being wrong about Christianity and sinning against God, inviting satan into my life, jeopardizing my soul, etc. But mainly it was the fear of being alone. Luckily I stuck it out, stayed away from Christianity and eventually those fears went away, but I don't think they would have if I kept teetering on the edge.

 

I'm not saying it's the same with you,. the most important thing is to be true to yourself and not let fear stop you. I found that after I completely stopped believing in Christianity, I was totally free to believe whatever I wanted, even Christianity, but I realize it's not for me because I have no interest in it. Finding what you really want, with no hidden fear-based motivations, is very rewarding and gives you great direction in life.

 

Thanks. I had been away from it, but I went back to it last year. There is so much that happened. I just can't go into it now.

[SummerMoon]

http://new.exchristian.net/2011/06/used-tampons.html

 

This is what I was talking about. I was glad to read this.

 

I am fine with Christians claiming the the works of darkness are evident, but not fine when the good works are seen as bad when it is a nonChristian or as nonessential to being good when you are a Christian. You don't have to be kind then and the hell to those who are and are nonChristian. And yet, they only have to believe in Jesus and its not by works they are saved.

 

That has drove me bananas. I was going to a church support group around here but the women are cold, and mean to me. I was going to an abuse group and they mocked what i went through because it was in a church as if oh no that couldn't happen in a church and I am so embarrassed I went because I might bump into to them in the supermarket or something. I am glad I didn't get involved with the church or get their phone numbers. The pastor has some pretty good sermons that are also online like that other church but since they are extreme and culitish in other ways, I cannot go. Both these local churches have really friendly, nice enough looking (I don't mean sexually attractive but like someone you would trust type of looks) older men as pastors but the doctrine is just going against your consience. there is no humility, love your neighbor or true effort put in. Yet I like them when they are nice, yet it doesn't last. I know there is evil lurking below that smile and it is so creepy. They are supposed to be not that way. The church operates best however with a doctrine of grace alone and no works, and also you are saved immediately, and you are elite and others are going to hell. All these deviations are conducive to making a church grow and keep members coming back and giving money I suppose which is why they are so oopular.

[Petunia]

I think the words can still hold truth and meaning. Nothing wrong with treating people like you want to be treated and loving others.

[AlphaToOmega]

Jesus was a incestuous MotherFu**er.

He got his own mother pregnant who gave birth to him on three levels of indirection with the holy spook.

I'm working on a paper that he was into foursomes or wife swapping but seeing as all three are him I get bogged down between a threesome and a wanker watching or a couple with two wankers watching or... It gets very spiritual.

You know? Right?

 

 

 

 

[LivingLife]

I wanted to comment on the unrighteous rags

 

When I found out the true meaning which to that point had been soiled dishcloths etc. It really opened my eyes to the ignorance of the goatherders.

 

Even today, womenfolk are embarrassed by their cycles and it should not be so. Some cultures had a period down to a weeping womb in that a "baby missed the boat" which would be more appropriate.

 

Before I got married, I was on vacation with my wife and she came on in the car, we were on our way to visit an aunt of hers. Her dress was soiled and the aunt picked up on it and they went to fix it. She crapped me out and said why did I not tell her, and she was pretty embarrassed about it. I really had not noticed and the car seat was OK (yeah I went and looked - shoot me) The point is, this is a natural thing and I believe that religion makes the whole sex stuff to be dirty and the idea of a man should not lie with a woman when she is menstruating really denigrates women to think that they are "unclean" or unworthy of affection/attention.

 

When you take all the texts associated with the natural biological functions of women, one sees just how sick these old fucks were that wrote them down.

 

Xianity pulls a huge mind-fuck on all of us wrt sexuality and this mindset prevailed until the ovum was discovered. Prior to that, the semen of men which was visible in copious quantities was thought to be the only part that resulted in pregnancy.

 

I always argue the woo woos wrt their infallible buybull and ask why the buybull has not at least been amended with a footnote seeing we now know exactly where and how babies come from.

 

The qu'ran is even worse where the semen was thought to originate in the spinal cord.

 

Teaching women and men the changes in their bodies is natural and exploring urges are natural is the natural way to go with proper sex ed and for them to take precautions. My wife and I did this and we have two young responsible adults and no unwanted pregnancies.