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One Last Attempt....


Margee
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I am an ex christian - I know that for sure. I still say 'agnostic'. Haven't yet said 'atheist'. I am always holding on to one last thread for a creator. Please, don't ask me why - I don't know. I just want a 'sky daddy' - maybe it's because I didn't have a father growing up.:shrug:

 

I have watched hundreds of these videos about the human body and what goes on inside of it. I find it absolutely amazing. Why is it so hard to think that there might have been an intelligent designer behind all of this? I am just beginning to understand a little about evoution........ How can these cells be so friggin' intelligent? Just looking for some opinions - but they need to be real simple, cause I only got grade 9...........................

 

Please help me figure this out.

 

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Because we can explain with science nearly everything that cells do. Everything in this video can be explained at a the molecular level. I don't have the training in bio-chemestriy to expalin it at all.

 

 

 

However, this is a process will millions of year of evolution behind it. They have extracted from soft tissue that was fossilized in dinosaurs the exact same cells we see today. They have extracted blood vessels and neurons, I think .

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/jack_horner_building_a_dinosaur_from_a_chicken.html

 

 

Also cells don't always transcribe the RNA correctly. This leads to mutations and according to some certain cancers.

 

 

Anyway I'll let others with better knowledge on this explain more.

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I'm confused, why do you think you have to be an atheist?

 

For me freedom from restrictive Christian dogma means I can believe whatever I want. Just because alot of ex-Christians become atheists doesn't mean you have to. And just because you don't believe in a biblical god anymore doesn't mean you have to completely reject spirituality. I tried to fit in with the crowd when I was a Christian and it made me miserable. I'm not sacrificing my conscious anymore for the group. They always treat people bad who don't fit in to the group and reject any thought that the group doesn't like. Most people don't seem to care about that stuff in the first place, but I do.

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Hm... I tend to see the body as highly complex, but not well designed. Being a programmer, I think in computer analogies a lot.

 

A simple program/lifeform can be elegant, doing a limited number of things and doing it well. Unfortunately, anything too simple tends not to be very adaptable, and the planet earth is none too stable. Not to mention that as life developed, it did enough chemistry to change its own environment.

 

So the lifeforms that used to run on nice clean code/DNA suddenly had to survive somewhere that wasn't in the "design" specs, but they couldn't just start from scratch. Some mutations that allowed them to survive were elegant and clean, others were bad hacks. But they survived long enough to reproduce, and their offspring were viable, so that's all that matters for evolution.

 

Gradually, life got more complex as the environment changed, or as random mutations made some lifeforms dangerous to others. But at each step of the way, evolution was constrained by what came before. And as organisms got more complex, they got some really bizarre ways to survive. But it didn't matter whether it was the best way, or a simple way, as long as it worked.

 

----

 

I think a car analogy will work better. So a car that's been designed, fresh from the dealership, is composed of parts that all work well together. But years later, the original manufacturer goes out of business, but the car's owner wants to keep the car running. So they start replacing failing parts with pieces from other cars. These other parts don't fit, because they're not designed for the car. So the owner cuts holes in things, reroutes cabling, uses lots of duct tape, and goes to great lengths to keep the car running. The resulting hybrid car, years later, may well be more complex than the original car. But that's not a sign of design, that's a sign of taking all sorts of crap that wasn't designed to work together and cobbling it together. That's how I see the human body. If we were made by a designer starting from scratch, then that designer did a horrid job. But as a series of compromises and bad hacks built on the DNA we inherited from early organisms, I do find it quite impressive what our bodies do to function.

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Hm... I tend to see the body as highly complex, but not well designed. Being a programmer, I think in computer analogies a lot.

 

 

I think a car analogy will work better. So a car that's been designed, fresh from the dealership, is composed of parts that all work well together. But years later, the original manufacturer goes out of business, but the car's owner wants to keep the car running. So they start replacing failing parts with pieces from other cars. These other parts don't fit, because they're not designed for the car. So the owner cuts holes in things, reroutes cabling, uses lots of duct tape, and goes to great lengths to keep the car running. The resulting hybrid car, years later, may well be more complex than the original car. But that's not a sign of design, that's a sign of taking all sorts of crap that wasn't designed to work together and cobbling it together. That's how I see the human body. If we were made by a designer starting from scratch, then that designer did a horrid job. But as a series of compromises and bad hacks built on the DNA we inherited from early organisms, I do find it quite impressive what our bodies do to function.

 

Now, VacuumFlux - you are talkin' my grade 9 language -Thank you. This does makes sense to me and you are right - why is there so much sickness - did the 'designer' screw up somehow?? :shrug:

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Margee, I am no expert in this field but back then when they wrote all this crap, if they had the technology like the electron microscope, catscans etc. we may well have a different bible perspective.

 

In the OT and even the NT, the whole concept of procreation was seen as man sowing his seed and the women merely the incubator, They never understood the part the female brought to the equation until the ovum was discovered by Karl Ernst von Baer in the late 19th century. The menses of the woman was seen as uncleanliness or as they put it her fountain. Sperm (there must have been wankers back then too :grin:) is and was visible in copious quantities and even the muslim mohammed thought sperm came from the spine. Hence the whole lineage thing was male driven.

 

Folk had to ascribe this to the miracle of god and how he knitted together the being in the womb, they knew nothing of splitting of cells and RNA and DNA. If we had had 3.5k years of research dating from back then, then we would have a much clearer understanding.

 

We obviously know a crapload more now and we are only scratching the surface. We can already clone so there is no miracle of conception anymore.

 

Evolution has had plenty of time for this to all evolve and folk are still looking for origins in a scientific manner.

 

I think as time marches on, the need for ID will fall by the wayside. There definitely is no biblegawd version involved, this was merely their way of answering the where did we come from questions. We would have been better off if they stuck to the stork theory, at least storks are real :HaHa:

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to add to vaccumm flux's point.

 

mitochondria in cells are believed to have orginated as a Prokaryote sysmbosis or something like that. So the earliest cells joined up with a Prokaryote and then later evolution just created them as a part of a cell. Thus adding parts.

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>Now, VacuumFlux - you are talkin' my grade 9 language  -Thank you. This does makes  sense to me and you are right - why is there so much sickness - <b>did the 'designer' screw up somehow</b>??    <img src='http://www.ex-christian.net/public/style_emoticons/default/Wendyshrug.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':shrug:' /><br />

 

I'm sure there other possibilities besides 'there has to be a designer or nothing at all'. I don't understand why people feel the need to decide on one or the other when we have such limited understanding of the universe.

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I'm confused, why do you think you have to be an atheist?

 

For me freedom from restrictive Christian dogma means I can believe whatever I want. Just because alot of ex-Christians become atheists doesn't mean you have to. And just because you don't believe in a biblical god anymore doesn't mean you have to completely reject spirituality. I tried to fit in with the crowd when I was a Christian and it made me miserable. I'm not sacrificing my conscious anymore for the group. They always treat people bad who don't fit in to the group and reject any thought that the group doesn't like. Most people don't seem to care about that stuff in the first place, but I do.

 

Excellent answer. I see myself as a spiritual person. I believe in God, but I sure can't figure him out. I am tired of trying to fit God or myself into any kind of a box.

 

I watched the video. I am also taking nursing classes and I too, have been amazed. I know what you mean when you ask "Where does the information come from?" I don't think science answers this question. Somehow, our cells are programmed. They are amazing.

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Hm... I tend to see the body as highly complex, but not well designed. Being a programmer, I think in computer analogies a lot.

 

 

I think a car analogy will work better. So a car that's been designed, fresh from the dealership, is composed of parts that all work well together. But years later, the original manufacturer goes out of business, but the car's owner wants to keep the car running. So they start replacing failing parts with pieces from other cars. These other parts don't fit, because they're not designed for the car. So the owner cuts holes in things, reroutes cabling, uses lots of duct tape, and goes to great lengths to keep the car running. The resulting hybrid car, years later, may well be more complex than the original car. But that's not a sign of design, that's a sign of taking all sorts of crap that wasn't designed to work together and cobbling it together. That's how I see the human body. If we were made by a designer starting from scratch, then that designer did a horrid job. But as a series of compromises and bad hacks built on the DNA we inherited from early organisms, I do find it quite impressive what our bodies do to function.

 

Now, VacuumFlux - you are talkin' my grade 9 language -Thank you. This does makes sense to me and you are right - why is there so much sickness - did the 'designer' screw up somehow?? :shrug:

 

This is also a good question. Maybe God is someone who was doing experiments are we were a bad batch. :)

 

 

 

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For some reason I am not comfortable calling myself an agnostic. It's kind of like stating the obvious. Of course no one knows whether or not there is a creator with absolute 100 % certainty.

 

But I know what you mean Margee, how it might be hard for you to admit to yourself that you are an atheist. Some people struggle with it more than others, and it was a difficult thing for me to admit to myself at first. Based on what I've learned though, I don't believe that there is a god. Could I be wrong? Of course! I just don't see the evidence for it. I guess that's why the term agnostic didn't sit well with me, I felt like simply saying "I don't know" was kind of a given and that I could make a decision with a certain amount of confidence about what I believed.

 

Everyone is different though.

 

I hope that you figure things out for yourself. :)

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I don't think there's anything wrong with not knowing, i just think some people think god is adding something even more improbable to the equation/complicating the issue. It's like you're trying to explain how things got here, and you say someone just created it, it just adds "who created the creator" to the whole thing. The formation of the universe is complicated enough without trying to factor in an improbable god i guess is what some would say.

 

Like i said though, there's no reason you can't believe in a god, although i really don't think it matters much either way. Unless you believe god is an vengeful asshole in the bible....

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Maybe God is someone who was doing experiments are we were a bad batch. <img src='http://www.ex-christian.net/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

 

Maybe we're actually an imperfect, yet extremely powerful and creative 'consciousness' that exists outside of time and created ourselves. Who knows? I don't necessarily agree with the idea of an external being that's separate from us.

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As long as I have been involved with Ex-c, I still don't know how to 'multi-quote', so I want to tell you all - these are all such good answers!

 

It's like - there is no answer? :shrug:

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As long as I have been involved with Ex-c, I still don't know how to 'multi-quote', so I want to tell you all - these are all such good answers!

 

It's like - there is no answer? :shrug:

 

The tried-and-true long way is to use the quote tag (the word quote surrounded by square brackets) and then copy the quoted text between quote and /quote.

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I think life is a fascinating thing. We really don't know how it started, but evolution is seen as the result of variations that survived ad infinitum (as I understand it). I still have a hard time believing the extent of some adaptations, like bugs that develop a complete non-working facade of another bug in order to not be eaten. How the hell did that happen slowly or at all?

 

Nearly all life feeds off of other life. All life is driven to replicate or reproduce, or at least go through the motions. Why? It is clearly more than just a chemical reaction, so what is it?

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For me the whole science thing has nothing to do with the faith thing. Most of this stuff I don't even care about anymore. Im tired of the talking heads on both sides of the coin. I look at it this way - I can't really know if there is a god or not. If there is, he has some serious explaining to do and I am not too impressed with his hands off agenda. If there isn't, makes no difference anyway. I don't want a skydaddy I can look after myself thanks.

 

If the bible is true, why are there still so many ego driven assholes running churches? If god is there why does he fail to heal the sick when they ask nicely and why does he give people more than they can handle to the point where they top themselves. As far as I can see there are far more questions than answers regarding christianity, or any other religion for that matter.

 

Seems to me no matter what ideology or belief system or even scientific way of doing things you give to humans they will find some way to fuck it up with politics or greed or self interest.

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For me the whole science thing has nothing to do with the faith thing. Most of this stuff I don't even care about anymore. Im tired of the talking heads on both sides of the coin. I look at it this way - I can't really know if there is a god or not. If there is, he has some serious explaining to do and I am not too impressed with his hands off agenda. If there isn't, makes no difference anyway. I don't want a skydaddy I can look after myself thanks.

 

If the bible is true, why are there still so many ego driven assholes running churches? If god is there why does he fail to heal the sick when they ask nicely and why does he give people more than they can handle to the point where they top themselves. As far as I can see there are far more questions than answers regarding christianity, or any other religion for that matter.

 

Seems to me no matter what ideology or belief system or even scientific way of doing things you give to humans they will find some way to fuck it up with politics or greed or self interest.

 

You got one hell of a point there Galien! I don't know enough about anything - science, evolution, magic...... -so I think I'm getting tired of the whole questioning too!:shrug:

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I am an ex christian - I know that for sure. I still say 'agnostic'. Haven't yet said 'atheist'. I am always holding on to one last thread for a creator. Please, don't ask me why - I don't know. I just want a 'sky daddy' - maybe it's because I didn't have a father growing up.

 

I have watched hundreds of these videos about the human body and what goes on inside of it. I find it absolutely amazing. Why is it so hard to think that there might have been an intelligent designer behind all of this? I am just beginning to understand a little about evoution........ How can these cells be so friggin' intelligent?

 

Margee, there's nothing wrong with calling yourself an agnostic. That's what I call myself. :) Anyway, just because there might be a God doesn't mean that God automatically defaults to being a Christian God, and all the problems associated with that.

 

I know what you're saying - How can these cells be so friggin' intelligent? To me, creation has its problems and so does evolution. It seems to me that some blend of both theories makes more sense. I don't know. They'll still be arguing over this stuff long after I'm gone.

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The Holy Farter loves you, Sister Margee! That's why He sacrificed Himself to Himself on the big giant stick to save you from Himself! I feel the Spook of Kryasst who is also somehow magically Him magically prompting me to share this glorious video:

 

 

I am beseeching the Magic Sky Man in your behalf, hoping that my Sky Obedience somehow magically blesses you.

 

I have trouble labeling myself too. I definitely don't believe in Christianity or in the god of the Bible. But I don't find strict hardcore atheism/materialism convincing either. I have had too many experiences (as have members of my immediate family) that convince me that there is very likely some sort of continued existence after death, but what that may be I have no idea. And neither does anyone else, for that matter. I don't worry too much about labels other than "ex-Christian".

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