What Is Your New Spirituality?

[Noggy]

Saying that you think Spirituality is bullshit is just as valid an opinion as saying it isn't.

 

Of course its an opinion, but bearing in mind the rules of this section of the forum, it should not be expressed here, valid or not. Go onto Rants and Replies or the Lion's Den or any number of other places and express this opinion that its bullshit. There it wouldn't be against the rules of the forum.

 

Perhaps when someone dwaddles into the spirituality forum saying that it doesn't seem that it is so, you should help them see the "spiritual light". He wasn't ranting, he was just saying it doesn't seem to be true. I'd say the burden of proof of spirituality would be on you, and I for one would be interested in hearing an explanation that goes beyond neurons.

 

You haven't been here very long. This particular section of the forum is the ONE place on this site that those of us that still find a spiritual life meaningful don't have to prove anything. It isn't our obligation to help an atheist see anything. If they want a reasoned discussion they can take it to the colliseum section.

 

I don't think he was ranting. He apologized as appropriate and its no longer a problem, unless you decide to make it one. If you do, I will leave it to the Moderators.

 

 

I understand that. I'm just curious if there is somewhere on this sight that I can go where you can "prove" some of it. I would be incredibly elated if there was a spiritual side to humanity, and would like to see some evidence of that. Where can I get me some of this delicious proofs?

 

 

[Deva]

 

I understand that. I'm just curious if there is somewhere on this sight that I can go where you can "prove" some of it. I would be incredibly elated if there was a spiritual side to humanity, and would like to see some evidence of that. Where can I get me some of this delicious proofs?

 

 

 

I am afraid you still don't understand. If you want to open a topic on this subject in any other area of the forum, nothing is stopping you. Please post elsewhere and not in this section. I resent the whole notion of a "delicious" proof. I really want to tell you where to stick it when you put it in those terms.

[Noggy]

I understand that. I'm just curious if there is somewhere on this sight that I can go where you can "prove" some of it. I would be incredibly elated if there was a spiritual side to humanity, and would like to see some evidence of that. Where can I get me some of this delicious proofs?

 

 

 

I am afraid you still don't understand. If you want to open a topic on this subject in any other area of the forum, nothing is stopping you. Please post elsewhere and not in this section. I resent the whole notion of a "delicious" proof. I really want to tell you where to stick it when you put it in those terms.

 

So... wait. This isn't the forum to discuss spirituality, but more like a play place for people who are spiritual to frolic, and people who are not are not allowed?

 

And I don't understand your hostility toward my delicious proofs statement.

 

Edit: I just realized that my last post could also be taken offensively. I don't mean any offense. I'm not good at understanding human social interaction most of the time. I'm just confused at what this forum is for and curious as to why my questions aren't allowed. Because I would LOVE to discuss Dharma stuff with you some time. I think spirtuality is a very interesting topic, and am interested in hearing the manifestations of it. Such as your experiences, what it has done for you, etc. But it seems this is not the place for that. And that is why I am confused.

[Antlerman]

So... wait. This isn't the forum to discuss spirituality, but more like a play place for people who are spiritual to frolic, and people who are not are not allowed?

Discuss yes. Belittle, no. Calling someones beliefs woo-woo, bullshit, nonsense, etc., is not discussion, but rather just posturing.

 

All people no matter their views are welcome to participate in discussion and dialog. Rhetoric, insults, posturing, etc, that's not for this forum. The Lion's Den is the place where it's far less moderated, within reason of course.

 

As I said elsewhere in my earlier responses, I am very interested in differing opinions and challenges. You are welcome to challenge my views if you wish, as I welcome the opportunity to offer a positive challenge for you in return. But bear in mind the primary thing is not that we rip each other down, but instead encourage each other to grow beyond the programming of the past and all its damages.

 

If you wish to ask why I think a certain way, how I feel about this, etc, you may ask me.

 

 

I think spirtuality is a very interesting topic, and am interested in hearing the manifestations of it. Such as your experiences, what it has done for you, etc. But it seems this is not the place for that. And that is why I am confused.

It is the place for what you just described here. Ask away. However, if I feel it's more appropriate to move the discussion because it's derailing the topic at hand, I may opt to do that to keep the topic on track and not distracting.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

So... wait. This isn't the forum to discuss spirituality, but more like a play place for people who are spiritual to frolic, and people who are not are not allowed?

 

And I don't understand your hostility toward my delicious proofs statement.

 

Edit: I just realized that my last post could also be taken offensively. I don't mean any offense. I'm not good at understanding human social interaction most of the time. I'm just confused at what this forum is for and curious as to why my questions aren't allowed. Because I would LOVE to discuss Dharma stuff with you some time. I think spirtuality is a very interesting topic, and am interested in hearing the manifestations of it. Such as your experiences, what it has done for you, etc. But it seems this is not the place for that. And that is why I am confused.

 

Dude, I have a hard time believing that you didn't understand what the admin posted. Drop it already. It is one thing to be curious, it is another to come on with a "prove it" attitude. The point of this being a safe haven is so we don't have to prove it, or defend our beliefs as the "right ones" like we did in our evangelical days. This is a place to share our current views of spirituality without demeaning comments like "a play place for people who are spiritual to frolic". Other forums on the website are fine for that, but not this one.

[Noggy]

So... wait. This isn't the forum to discuss spirituality, but more like a play place for people who are spiritual to frolic, and people who are not are not allowed?

 

And I don't understand your hostility toward my delicious proofs statement.

 

Edit: I just realized that my last post could also be taken offensively. I don't mean any offense. I'm not good at understanding human social interaction most of the time. I'm just confused at what this forum is for and curious as to why my questions aren't allowed. Because I would LOVE to discuss Dharma stuff with you some time. I think spirtuality is a very interesting topic, and am interested in hearing the manifestations of it. Such as your experiences, what it has done for you, etc. But it seems this is not the place for that. And that is why I am confused.

 

Dude, I have a hard time believing that you didn't understand what the admin posted. Drop it already. It is one thing to be curious, it is another to come on with a "prove it" attitude. The point of this being a safe haven is so we don't have to prove it, or defend our beliefs as the "right ones" like we did in our evangelical days. This is a place to share our current views of spirituality without demeaning comments like "a play place for people who are spiritual to frolic". Other forums on the website are fine for that, but not this one.

 

 

Yeah, most people don't believe me. Oh well, on this forum I don't have to prove anything to you!

 

 

[Vigile]

Saying that you think Spirituality is bullshit is just as valid an opinion as saying it isn't.

 

Of course its an opinion, but bearing in mind the rules of this section of the forum, it should not be expressed here, valid or not. Go onto Rants and Replies or the Lion's Den or any number of other places and express this opinion that its bullshit. There it wouldn't be against the rules of the forum.

 

Perhaps when someone dwaddles into the spirituality forum saying that it doesn't seem that it is so, you should help them see the "spiritual light". He wasn't ranting, he was just saying it doesn't seem to be true. I'd say the burden of proof of spirituality would be on you, and I for one would be interested in hearing an explanation that goes beyond neurons.

 

We created this section of the forum to give people a place to go where they won't be constantly requested to explain themselves. While I'm a big "prove it" guy myself, I can understand the need for a place where communication can be unhindered by those feeling the need to challenge; especially when challenging is enmeshed within the culture of the rest of the entire forum.

 

Consider the fact that some people who have freshly deconverted might not be ready for challenges and consider the fact that others wired differently than you and I might just be tired of the challenges and need a break from them.

[lynx]

We created this section of the forum to give people a place to go where they won't be constantly requested to explain themselves. While I'm a big "prove it" guy myself, I can understand the need for a place where communication can be unhindered by those feeling the need to challenge; especially when challenging is enmeshed within the culture of the rest of the entire forum.

 

Consider the fact that some people who have freshly deconverted might not be ready for challenges and consider the fact that others wired differently than you and I might just be tired of the challenges and need a break from them.

Thank you, Vigile. My thoughts exactly.

[Antlerman]

Sigh ....

 

I'm sorry to see this thread turning away from shared ideas about our new spirituality to more of a debate about whether "spirituality" is a valid concept, not that I think that is not a good question, but I was enjoying the discussion before, now it seems like more of a debate.

If others would prefer I can start a topic surrounding the creation of spirituality by the mind and move the posts out of this thread into that one as a separate topic. Up to you. I don't mind it as a legitimate question that is worth asking, so long as the tone is not dismissive. I genuinely believe people are drawn to spiritual questions, otherwise discussions about God/no-God/what-else, would be about as interesting to people as my magic-pony discussions. Since they're not, there appears something there we're interested in enough worth discussion. True?

[Noggy]

I support moving these posts to a new thread if I get to read more of this delicious information.

[Antlerman]

I support moving these posts to a new thread if I get to read more of this delicious information.

Done. Moved to here: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/47376-the-brain-and-spirituality/page__view__findpost__p__678583

[lunaticheathen]

Saying that you think Spirituality is bullshit is just as valid an opinion as saying it isn't.

 

Of course its an opinion, but bearing in mind the rules of this section of the forum, it should not be expressed here, valid or not. Go onto Rants and Replies or the Lion's Den or any number of other places and express this opinion that its bullshit. There it wouldn't be against the rules of the forum.

 

Perhaps when someone dwaddles into the spirituality forum saying that it doesn't seem that it is so, you should help them see the "spiritual light". He wasn't ranting, he was just saying it doesn't seem to be true. I'd say the burden of proof of spirituality would be on you, and I for one would be interested in hearing an explanation that goes beyond neurons.

 

You're an asshole.

[lunaticheathen]

And you know what? I don't have SHIT to prove to you! You are not deserving of even an explanation or conversation about my religion!

And I'm GLAD you're an atheist, stay the FUCK AWAY FROM MY RELIGION! I'd hate to have you represent it, you arrogant fuck. Just because you have a position where you "don't believe" anything, or "you can't prove a negative" doesn't give you the right to be a fucking shithead and demand proof from those WHO ASK NOTHING OF YOU!

I don't WANT you to believe what I do! I DON'T CARE! I have no burden of proof to you, nor any obligation to make what I think make sense to your tiny, narrow mind.

Get out of this section.

[Deva]

I support moving these posts to a new thread if I get to read more of this delicious information.

Done. Moved to here: http://www.ex-christ...post__p__678583

 

I don't care for this type of discussion in the Ex-C Spirituality forum at all. This thread started out well, then got completely derailed into an argument or debate for/against the materialist/atheist position. I certainly believe an atheist can be spiritual, but that does not seem to be the point of what this thread has now turned into, and I think it ought to be moved to one of the other forums.

[Deva]

You guys are ridiculously hateful. ^

 

Well, you are the one of the parties who started it. I hope you are proud of yourself. I have been extremely restrained. You have run roughshod over this particular thread which once was very interesting.

[lynx]

Done. Moved to here: http://www.ex-christ...post__p__678583

Thank you very much, Antlerman!

[Antlerman]

I don't care for this type of discussion in the Ex-C Spirituality forum at all. This thread started out well, then got completely derailed into an argument or debate for/against the materialist/atheist position. I certainly believe an atheist can be spiritual, but that does not seem to be the point of what this thread has now turned into, and I think it ought to be moved to one of the other forums.

I agree that this thread got derailed, and my moving it out of here is to attempt to correct that. I don't agree however that to have a discussion about spirituality with those who are atheists as a topic in general within this section shouldn't be allowed, or isn't a value. I very clearly stated in the moved topic that:

 

"This topic is intended less as a debate and more a discussion of multiple areas of interest surround the human experience of what is called spirituality. In the "spirit" of this forum, the expectation is a show of respect to others points of view, despite differences in opinion."

 

I believe dialog is helpful to both those who are atheists and those who have spiritual perspectives, otherwise it's just yet another division of beliefs. I'm not willing for it to be a debate of "you're wrong, no you're wrong" sort of thing. It is centered around a discussion of spirituality and therefore is an appropriate topic. I will however make a greater effort to not allow topics to swerve off topic into another discussion like this within them. I can easily now direct them to that topic if they wish such a discussion.

[Deva]

I'm not willing for it to be a debate of "you're wrong, no you're wrong" sort of thing. It is centered around a discussion of spirituality and therefore is an appropriate topic. I will however make a greater effort to not allow topics to swerve off topic into another discussion like this within them. I can easily now direct them to that topic if they wish such a discussion.

 

 

The topic is appropriate but all too often I have seen this type of discussion degenerate into what you are describing above. If its carefully moderated, I have no issue with it.

[Lethallunacy]

After flirting with Paganism for a few months, I've settled on a comfortable Pantheism. In conversation though, I would refer to myself as an Atheist for the sake of simplicity

[chosendarkness]

After flirting with Paganism for a few months, I've settled on a comfortable Pantheism. In conversation though, I would refer to myself as an Atheist for the sake of simplicity

 

Of all the spirituality's I like Pantheism the best.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

I think spirituality is feel-good bunkum. We are our bodies; when they are gone, we are gone. What some perceive as their spirits are just neurons firing across synapses.

I think it's entirely possible that this could be true AND that spirituality and spiritual practices still have value.

It is also possible that more is happening than neurons firing. We might never know.

 

Regardless of the biochemistry (or not) behind it, the experiences themselves often provide a lot of meaning for those who have them, and IMO there is something significant in this phenomenon itself. A big difficulty I have with "evangelical" atheism now is that this issue was nearly always ignored or repudiated in a knee-jerk fashion. It's not all that different from Christians writing off atheists as simply on some level "rebelling against God."

 

The big question to me for the last two decades or so, is - can another positive training take over and take the place of this negative training and turn it around? I have thought this is possible for at least the last ten years. It is a tremendous effort. I see some progress, but am not there yet completely. This is what I suppose I would say is my "spiritual life" and is more necessary to me than anything else in life beyond mere sustenance.

Deva, I think it is possible to do that, yes. I've seen significant progress in my own life, though like you (probably like nearly everyone), I'm not there yet, either.

[VacuumFlux]

I think it's entirely possible that this could be true AND that spirituality and spiritual practices still have value.

It is also possible that more is happening than neurons firing. We might never know.

 

Regardless of the biochemistry (or not) behind it, the experiences themselves often provide a lot of meaning for those who have them, and IMO there is something significant in this phenomenon itself. A big difficulty I have with "evangelical" atheism now is that this issue was nearly always ignored or repudiated in a knee-jerk fashion. It's not all that different from Christians writing off atheists as simply on some level "rebelling against God."

 

I've read some amazingly moving pieces about nature or human relationships from gnu atheists that I would consider to be describing spiritual experiences. Then then claim that with all the awesome feelings like that they get without the supernatural, they don't need spirituality to have a fulfilling life. *facepalm*

[Vigile]

I think it's entirely possible that this could be true AND that spirituality and spiritual practices still have value.

 

Absolutely agree. Antlerman convinced me of that, though I still can't figure out what the hell he's going on and on about most of the time.

[DesertBob]

I think it's entirely possible that this could be true AND that spirituality and spiritual practices still have value.

 

Absolutely agree. Antlerman convinced me of that, though I still can't figure out what the hell he's going on and on about most of the time.

We just took my stepson to see the final Harry Potter installment and this convo reminds me of a scene near the end where Harry dies and wakes up in the afterlife and meets the also-dead Dumbledore and has a conversation with him. At one point Harry asks, "Is this really happening or is it just happening inside my head?" Dumbledore looks at him like he's stupid and says, "Of COURSE this is happening in your head. Does that make it any less real?"

 

Which is, of course, the key question. How much of reality -- up to and including 100% of it -- is nothing but thoughts? And if even what we think of as "physical" reality is just pure consciousness, how do you figure out what (in either the physical or non-physical world) is real / true and what is fake / false? Or is that even the right question?

 

Makes your head explode if you think about it too much. Also makes you wonder whether it's relevant to even debate the matter. Why not just make it all up as you go? That's what everyone essentially does anyway.

 

The problem of course is that whatever else is true, it's clear that it's not as simple as my reality being nothing but my thoughts, or of spiritual experiences simply being just another aspect of my thought life (or lack thereof). Because I can think all I want right this moment about how I want certain aspects of my life to be or summon revelation about The Meaning Of It All and not a thing happens or changes. If reality were truly nothing but consciousness it would in practice be much more malleable and much less intractable than it is.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

I've read some amazingly moving pieces about nature or human relationships from gnu atheists that I would consider to be describing spiritual experiences. Then then claim that with all the awesome feelings like that they get without the supernatural, they don't need spirituality to have a fulfilling life. *facepalm*

OK, to some extent I can see atheists' point when they say that, and I can understand your frustration here, too.

 

Nobody has to be spiritual, they aren't, and it works for them. No problem there.

The knee-jerk spirituality-bashing, though... that I have trouble with.

 

On the other hand, I can understand where you're coming from in that it could be that some of them may have had spiritual experiences, but they don't won't call them that only because they "don't believe in that kind of thing." It may come down in some cases to a question of semantics, or of underlying philosophy, i.e. to what are they attributing the experience. That underlying belief influences the interpretation.

 

 

We just took my stepson to see the final Harry Potter installment and this convo reminds me of a scene near the end where Harry dies and wakes up in the afterlife and meets the also-dead Dumbledore and has a conversation with him. At one point Harry asks, "Is this really happening or is it just happening inside my head?" Dumbledore looks at him like he's stupid and says, "Of COURSE this is happening in your head. Does that make it any less real?"

When it comes to this topic, that perspective can be helpful to try, IMO.

 

At the same time, yes, I do think it's very worthwhile asking questions like you have here:

How much of reality -- up to and including 100% of it -- is nothing but thoughts? And if even what we think of as "physical" reality is just pure consciousness, how do you figure out what (in either the physical or non-physical world) is real / true and what is fake / false?

I am not sure if there is necessarily one set of "right" questions. There are just different sets of questions that can be used as tools to try to understand the issue from different angles, some of which are more helpful (or respectful, if you are dialoguing with people of different beliefs) than others.

 

Makes your head explode if you think about it too much.

It can. and mine pretty much did at one point.

 

Also makes you wonder whether it's relevant to even debate the matter.

I think it is, especially if that's "where you are" in your questioning/questing.

 

Why not just make it all up as you go? That's what everyone essentially does anyway.

Well, I think most people want to behave and believe with integrity. They don't want to believe just anything, let alone something they suspect is bullshit...

... unless perhaps they're doing a Chaos Magick experiment or something.

Which, IMO, is not necessarily a bad idea when you're exploring.

 

But in any case, we as ex-Christians all know that there are some things that we have good reason NOT to believe, and many of us are a lot better off after leaving the belief system. We know from experience that it's not good to just believe anything... no matter how nice-sounding some of it might be.

 

I think it's very reasonable for people to test new beliefs in various ways... What evidence is there for this belief? What effect does this belief have on me? What is the belief asking of me? Does this belief help me better connect with and/or be compassionate towards others? How does this belief affect my identity? There are all kinds of things one could ask... not just "Is it true or false?"

 

The problem of course is that whatever else is true, it's clear that it's not as simple as my reality being nothing but my thoughts, or of spiritual experiences simply being just another aspect of my thought life (or lack thereof). Because I can think all I want right this moment about how I want certain aspects of my life to be or summon revelation about The Meaning Of It All and not a thing happens or changes. If reality were truly nothing but consciousness it would in practice be much more malleable and much less intractable than it is.

I agree that things are more complex than that. I found that once I got over the fear of uncertainty and let go of the need to know for sure, these issues got a lot more fun and interesting.